Anti-Bin Tax legal costs fundraiser

by John - Finglas Anti Bin Tax Campaign Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:29

Where is the fundraiser being held?

by Reader Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:55

The clue was in this bit here:
We have organised a fundraising pub-quiz on the 11th April in Eamonn McGraths pub, Fassaugh Avenue, Cabra.

by tomeile Fri Apr 04, 2008 13:07

Brian's article comes across as the sort of desperate one-sided propaganda you get from the losing side of a debate. Those who are pro-bin tax wouldn't have much difficulty in countering crude sort of stuff like :

"A 68 year old pensioner from Cabra is been brought to court by Dublin City Council for putting rubbish into the back of a bin truck."

It's very doubtful if DCC would be stupid enough to try to prosecute a 68 year old pensioner for doing something which ,as the article says , is not illegal. So what is the pensioner being prosecuted for then - obstruction ? littering?
The anti- bin tax campaign should provide more rounded and accurate information if they want to answer people who ,rightly or wrongly , support the bin tax out of concern for the environment - people like Dermot Lacey or the Greens .

by Brian Bourke Fri Apr 04, 2008 13:43

Sorry Tom, you're right - you caught me out.
Please, Dermot Lacey and the Greens, help us out.

by Dermot Lacey Fri Apr 04, 2008 14:03

I have been trying to do just that for years!

by tomeile Fri Apr 04, 2008 15:51

I wasn't trying to catch you out and I'm not a supporter of the bin tax . There are a lot of people though who do support the tax whose concerns about the environment need to be addressed by the anti-side .As well as that there are a lot of householders who oppose the tax but need to be convinced that the issue is worth fighting ,let alone asking pensioners to risk prosecution for . Many people see the campaign at this stage as going nowhere - just leading people up a rubbish-strewn garden path ,perhaps to prison .

Left wing activists prioritize different campaigns .Those who are still involved in the anti-bin tax campaign surely need accurate information to pass on to non-activist supporters . I don't think its accurate to say that a pensioner is being prosecuted for throwing rubbish into the the back of a truck . If that was the case the pensioner wouldn't need a gig to pay his legal costs because the charges against him would be quickly thrown out of court on the grounds that it isn't illegal to throw rubbish into the back of a bin-truck.

by Sean Fri Apr 04, 2008 16:45

"It's very doubtful if DCC would be stupid enough to try to prosecute a 68 year old pensioner for doing something which ,as the article says , is not illegal."

I'm pretty sure that it's a fallacy that you can put waste into a stationary bin lorry. It was bandied about residents meetings I was at before the pay-by-use charges came into effect in January '05 but I've done some checking and there's no such law/bye-law that allows it.

Unless someone can state the actual law, then I don't think the pensioner was doing something entirely legal.

by Brian Bourke Sun Apr 06, 2008 13:17

it is quite obvious that DCC is in fact testing the legal waters by charging this pensioner. They may feel that a pensioner would be unable to legally defend themselves so they would therefore have an easy victory. The pensioner was in fact , one of several residents placing their waste in the stationary truck but DCC only summoned him. The legal costs to date are four thousand euro, a measure of the inequality in our legal system.
As for the greens and others being pro bin tax because of the environment, lets get real. The majority of waste is still sent to landfill, including vast quantities from our green bins. To change this policy you need a government policy. Guess what? the greens are in government yet there has been NO change.
The pensioner involved has no intention of going to jail. And rightly so. as he says himself " Ireland has had enough martyrs". He is , with the campaigns support, challenging the legalities of DCC's claim. It would be nice to think that he would recieve voluntary legal advice from the ranks of the middle class left but thats not going to happen. Once again, residents will rally around one of our own and ensure we all stand together. Win or lose, we will have tried our best.
The campaign against the bin tax is at a stage where 30% of people have paid, 40% are on waivers and 30% of people refuse to pay and dispose of their own waste. It is a matter for peoples principles. We don't accept the double taxation and we continue to oppose it (and not just through the internet! ).
As for those who voted for the increase in taxation, can they say the services have improved ?, the environment is safer ? or bin workers jobs are safer ? the answer to all three is NO. We now have a service about to be privatised section by section, continued use of landfill and exporting of waste and a job redundacy plan for DCC cleansing workers to accomodate the privatisation.
Personally, I am glad to stand beside a 68 year old pensioner rather than skulk behind a keyboard.

by tomeile Sun Apr 06, 2008 17:00

Brian’s original post said that it was legal to put rubbish bags into the back of a stationary truck.That’s what I was told as well at anti-bin tax meetings I attended . It now seems that this might not be the case , so Brian shouldn’t say that it is legal until the pensioner’s case is heard or others may end up in court or in prison as a consequence.

As I wrote before, I’m not a supporter of the tax and wish the campaign every success in its defence of the brave 68 year old pensioner .The tax is a double tax at the moment ,one that will eventually lead to the privatisation of a service which has never been free ,but was at least once paid for through a more fair system of taxation that partially took inequalities of income into account– i e income tax.

Many greens support the bin tax on environmental grounds , so do many SF and Labour Party supporters .Their concerns should be addressed with patience , because people are right to be worried about the environment . Instead we get spiteful talk now from the anti - campaign about people skulking behind keyboards or else the plaintive ,defeatist “win- or -lose,- we -will -have –tried- our -best” sort of stuff. That's what I meant about sounding like you were on the losing side of an argument ,Brien .

It should be remembered that the tax was effectively forced onto the council by central government. The anti campaign made a mistake at the time imo by not raising that threat to local democracy as an issue and confining themselves to protests against possible future privatisation. The mass anti- war protests that took place around the same time as the anti- bin tax protests pointed to a similar denial of democracy by the government and the powerless of movements of the people in the face of that denial.

As was the case with the antiwar protests , the leadership of the anti bin tax campaign told the grassroots that getting more numbers onto the street , and more activism from activists would force the government to change . It seems odd that both campaigns were led by groups that would lay claim to being revolutionary ,and yet neither of the campaigns ,either at the time or since have been able to raise the questions of power raised by the powerlessness of their campaigns .

by Brian Bourke Sun Apr 06, 2008 23:21

The campaigns legal advice is that the placing of rubbish in a bin truck is legal under the relevant section. It is not our place to mount a legal challenge in the courts to prove this unless some of the leftie middle class legal eagles can offer their services. I won't hold my breath! We have spend 70,000 euros on legal fees to date, a tribute to the equality of the legal system.
We should all be worried about the environment but some of us don't hide behind party titles which make us appear "greener' than others. Political Claims are not always real..Bertis says he's a socialist springs to mind.
Why you would think my comments about keyboard intellectuals is spiteful is beyond me. As is your comment about being defeatist. I live in the real world, so if we lose a court case we move on to other avenues against this double taxation. I never believed that the court system would defend ordinary peoples rights against the government and the waste industry. Its not in their interests to do so.
Nobody in my community still refusing to pay the bin tax will change their attitude following this court case. 20 people were jailed yet 30% of people still don't pay. threats from bailiffs and still half those eligable to pay , won't.
Your reference to the role of central government is apt. considering that the greens are part of that same government. Incinorators for Ringsend on Gormleys watch is enough proof of the greens integrity. (The continued use of shannon is another in relation to your linking the two issues). Spineless politics.
As for others calls for local government reform, they had the opportunity to push the issue at the highest level but shirked the responsibility in favour of remaining a cosy cartel.
in relation to your reference to so called revolutionary groups, in many cases these are the internet warriors I refered to earlier. Most of these groups left the bin tax campaigh for the anti-war campaign in an attempt to increase paper sales or whatever reason they exist for. Ordinary residents are and always were the backbone of this campaign. We were never fooled by claims of "the unions will defeat this" or " mass mobilisation will crush this". Even the bin workers knew their unions wouldn't defend them and now we see mass redundancies in DCC.
The Bin tax campaign highlighted the total lack of democracy in our state. Vested interests are given free reign to pollute our environment, carve up an industry and impose financial burdens irrespective of income or family circumstances. It is a tribute to ordinary householders intellect and courage that we are still talking about the bin tax while many other issues have faltered. We may have been betrayed but we certainly have not been beaten.

by Dermot Lacey Mon Apr 07, 2008 09:58

Come on tell us the details of the "mass redundancies in DCC". There are none and you know it. We are in fact protecting the Service as a Public Service that has to be paid for while some of you are simply seeking publicity through scaremongering

by Michael O'Leary Mon Apr 07, 2008 22:38

Lacey you clown, a third of the binmen are getting laid off and those that are left will have to do increased routes. The corpo are looking for voluntary redundancies over the next few weeks. Ask any of the binmen or their union reps.
The private bin companies are taking legal action to stop the corpo limiting their opportunities to provide private services and will most likely win given the legal bias of the courts towards privatization.
The bin tax has increased dumping and contributed to the serious environmental mess we find ourselves in. Not to mention the costs to the corpo of the daily cleanup of the dumped rubbish.
The corpo has been forced to handout waivers to nearly 40% of people to take political pressure off them. These waivers will be dropped when the private companies take over.
And STILL less than 50% of people have fully paid their bin tax according to the corpos own figures.
The Labour Party and the Greens really did a good job on this issue, jobs saved, no privatisation and a cleaner environment!!!!!!! Ha Ha Ha Ha
The Labour Party as opposition to the government??? You must be fucken joking!

by Brian Bourke Mon Apr 07, 2008 23:52

Dermot, Dermot, Dermot. Will you ever learn. The city council is laying off workers and you don't even know about it. They are reducing their waste fleet by 60 trucks and you haven't heard.
All those council meetings and yet you are still in the dark. Ah Dermot, me thinks its time you were put out to pasture.
Or perhaps you did know but couldn't care. Its not youir job, its what de bosses told you and like before, its what de bosses say is what Dermot does.
Dermot, If you need any more info on whats happening in DCC, don't hesitate to ask. We can tell you- the truth.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:41

Brian,

There are no compulsory redundancies planned in DCC. As always there are discussions going on about redeployment, new services, reorganisation of services and if there are some surplus staff in some areas they can be offered Voluntary Redundancy or redeployment on no loss of pay. What is wrong with that.

by Sean Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:02

"The corpo has been forced to handout waivers to nearly 40% of people to take political pressure off them. These waivers will be dropped when the private companies take over".

The private companies that are up in arms about the variation to the waste Management Plan that gives the collection back to the councils?

Interesting.