Galway resists propaganda visit of Israeli ambassador to NUI Galway

by James Bowen - Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign Wed Oct 04, 2006 15:22 supportpalestine at ireland dot com

Archbishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa has likened Israeli treatment of the Palestinians to
the treatment of Blacks in apartheid-era South Africa.

No moral organization would have provided a forum in which an ambassador of apartheid-era South Africa could have peddled his country's racism without challenge.

Shame on the NUI-Galway Law Society for providing such a facility to the Israeli ambassador!

They should have insisted that the only way in which they could host him would be in a debate with a well-informed, articulate critic of Israeli racism.

by PaddyK Wed Oct 04, 2006 17:57

This is fantastic News, People.

It restores my faith in the Irish Conscience , this peaceful protest is crucial to the Palestinians.
I extend respect and solidarity for your presence there at this key moment. Keep us posted, please.

And Thanks.

by Fred Johnston Wed Oct 04, 2006 19:31

Yes, absolutely, you are to be congratulated. Your bravery and forthrightness throws into stark contrast the cowardice of many of our politicians who poodle-up to the US. It would be interesting to know whether there is any other reason or motive for the Israeli ambassador, at this particular time, visiting Galway's university. It seems odd - unless the Law Society are going to go head-to-head with him over Palestine and Lebanon, which I doubt. I would draw your attention - all our attention! - to an article in The Independent (London) for Tuesday, October 3rd (page 20), headed: "Arms industry 'flouting export laws'." It contains the following:

"But Apache gunships used in the recent attacks in Lebanon, which drew widespread condemnation, were built with components made in Britain, Ireland and the Netherlands."

So we are nicely complicit in even that horror. What are these components? Where are they built? By whom? Does any Irish university conduct any kind of research on or development of this kind of weaponry? Someone should ask.

by John Fouere - IPSC Wed Oct 04, 2006 19:52 john at cleggan-group dot com 095 44664

A point the Isreali ambassador should be challenged about is the lack of real democracy in the Isreali state.
Isreal calls itself Jewish and democratic, yet it refuses equality to one in five of its own citizens who do not happen to be Jewish, i.e. over 1 million of Isreali Palestinians.
Isreal is not therefor a democracy in the accepted sense, it is a democracy for Jews only. It is an ethnic and apartied state.

This is very well explained in 'Countercurrents' interview with Jonathan Cook dated 31 Aug.2006. se e link below

by TD - IPSC Thu Oct 05, 2006 02:20

Anger and outrage was kindled tonight in Galway University by the prevarication and lies of the Israeli ambassador, Dr. Zion Evrony, which stimulated a cohort of the audience to exit in contempt - the student IPSC Society were punctilious and rigorous in giving a fair ear to Evrony and walked out, eliciting other members of the audience to join them in solidarity, when the de rigueur bilge was spewed out. other members of the public refused entry on the basis of a "Full House", when appraised of this, joined the protesters ranks.

A phalanx of Gardai prevented the protesters from penetrating further into the concourse of the Arts Millenium Building, when the chanting of "Free, Free Palestine" began and a thoughtful mini-speech was given by a Palestinian studying in the Irish Centre for Human Rights,Thayseen.

Another phalanx of Gardai, Special Branch and Evrony's Israeli minders blocked the protesters way at the rear of the Arts Millenium Building where Evrony was expected to exit, not the trademan's entrance/exit for this creature though as he disgorged out the front to a hot and angry wall of chanting, out the gates in a blast of exhaust smoke to disappear into his country's natural realm, the darkness. So it goes.

30 Malaysian medical students from the UCHG boosted our numbers to 70

Frank from the NUIG branch of the IPSC was a power house of outrage tonight.

Fred Johnson, for sure, can't accuse James of "poodling" up to the Gardai?.

Evrony making his exit

A section of the queue, 100, approx, were turned away

by Paul Baynes Thu Oct 05, 2006 02:26

As suggested by PaddyK on a different thread -
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78754#comment169675
- I emailed the Law Society to register my objections.

Here is their response (I won't bother attaching my email as well):

Dear Paul,

The Law Society does not in anyway support Israel, it is unbiased in it's
approach and merely operates as a forum for dignified discussion.

What we have done is invited both the Israeli and Palestinian Ambassador
in order to raise awareness of the very serious developments that took
place over the summer months.

We invited each ambassador on the basis that we were inviting the other.
We have as yet, received no reply from the Palestinian Delegate.

Sincerely,

___________ (removed name to protect their privacy, just to be fair)
Auditor

by no surprise Thu Oct 05, 2006 13:05

the student IPSC Society were punctilious and rigorous in giving a fair ear to Evrony and walked out

thats a good un!!

better asking why the Palestinian delegate refused to answer the call to appear!! least the Israeli had the pride to turn up.

by Shane - Socialist Party Thu Oct 05, 2006 13:43

The ambassador treated the audience as though we had just come down in the last shower. He made territorial claims in his speech and told us that if we read 'the right history boooks' we would come to understand his point of view. He tried making jokes most of which went down like a lead balloon. He further claimed that Israel did not target civilians and attempted to justify the invasion of Lebanon. As if this wasn't sickening enough he bagan to talk about the great war for civilisation and democracy (here I am paraphrasing, I cannot remember his exact words) and pretty much claimed that Israel's actions were making the world, including Ireland, a safer place anmd that western media was biased AGAINST Israel! Some Arabic members of the audience and some members of the IPSC society took exception to his remarks about fifteen minutes into the diatribe. They began to heckle and were asked to leave. As a mark of solidarity with the hecklers and disgust with the speaker about thirty to forty others left in solidarity. This included all members of the IPSC, the Socialist Party, Sinn Fein and several members of Amnesty International (acting on an individual basis) as well as a large number of others including many of the Palestinians in the audience.
On leaving we bagan chanting in the Foyer of the building where a Garda cordon prevented us moving further back into the building. After some time we began moving around to the side door to blockade the ambassadors car, a black BMW. A detachment moved around the building to get behind the car as a Garda cordon was preventing us from completely surrounding it.
The Gardai then physically pushed us back from behind the car and around to the other side of the building. Here we noticed that a Renault station wagon with diplomatic plates had been driven up to a different door. There was an Israeli agaent in the car who hopped into the back seat and began using her phone. We maintained a presence at both cars for some time all the time chanting 'Free, Free Palestine'
Inside the Ambassador was facing a barrage of questions from various people in the audience.
When it came time for him to leave a second black BMW ploughed through the crowd flanked by Special Branch agents. The Mossad driver showed no regard whatsoever for the people around the car and was driving at speed in a dangerous manner in a pedestrian area. He drove up to a fire escape some thirty or forty feet from the renault and a phalanx of Gardai, Special Branch and Mossad agents surrounded the car while the amabassador came out and climbed in. The driver then took off at speed while Special Branch agents threw protestors out of the way in a rough manner. A number of people were manhandled or bumped by the car but no injuries were sustained.
The protest was impassioned and loud but was peaceful at all times and while some Gardai behaved in a roough manner many gave us messages of support and said 'fair play to ye' saying they were only there because they had to be. Similar messages of support were received from campus security and University staff.
To the best of my knowledge the only people with any objections to the events last night were members of the law society who had organised the event. When they came out in their suits and fancy frocks to berate the protestors following the ambassadors departure they were met with chants of 'There's no Justice with Lawyers!'

And tonight the engin-err-ing faculty have Andy Pyle of Shell Ireland down to speak. Rendezvous in the Arts Concourse at five o'clock.......

by An Seabhac Thu Oct 05, 2006 13:53

It may be true that the IPSC did not give a completely fair ear to Mr. Evrony. However, I think this is easily justified. Anyone that was at that meeting and heard the unrelenting barage of shite he was spewing about the greatness of Israel, capped off by an advocating, an open advocating, of the Israeli policy in murdering thousands of innocent Lebanese civilians.

He claimed that Hezbollah were using civilians as shields and of course it had absolutly nothing to do with Israeli ferocity and carpet-bombing strategy. Thankfully, the crowd did not buy this tripe and responded in shouting up the true situation. This led to a large section of the crowd walking out and conflagrating the already passionate crowd waiting outside.

A fierce demonstration ensued outside the Arts Millenium Building, we moved into the lobby area, chanting til exhaustion begged us stop. Having spoken to people who remained in the theatre, the rapturous chanting could be heard clearly in the theatre, even disrupting the 'address'.

This continued until approx. 22.30 when our friend finally made an appearance. Dr. Zion Evrony cooly made his way out the side door where his chariot had pulled up seconds later. We swarmed the car only to be ferociously by knocked to the ground by 'our' Gardai Siochana or nearly run over by the crazed driver. When we tried to report an incident of dangerous driving, the Gardai made no comment!

As with every demonstration there are key lessons we must take from this:
Firstly, if a plan is set out to stay in the theatre until the question time, this must be stuck to as close as possible. By walking out so soon into the address, we lost the opportunity to win over the rest of the crowd. We had strong, revealing questions to put to 'his excellancy', as you might expect.

Secondly, these things must be planned as much as possible, although yesterday was a great success, it shows the raw potential for an enormous mobilisation on these kinds of issues. The protest could have started before the meeting, as the crowd was gathering.

Congratulations to everyone who took part, I don't think the lawsoc will be inviting anymore controversial speakers for a while.

Lastly (well done on making it this far through the rant) Mr. Andy Pyle, the chief engineer for Shell will be in the University today. Bearing in mind the events surrounding the Rossport five and the new progressions at the refinery over the past few days, we must give Mr. Pyle a warm welcome. The actual meeting is taking place at 18.00 in the Lamor theatre (Arts Concourse), but we'll be meeting there at 17.00 to plan our couse of action and whip up support. The more that come along, the better. The university has to be shown that they cannot get away with inviting these figures to spread their lies.

See you there!

by PaddyK Thu Oct 05, 2006 14:28

Dear Folks,

This is great, I really enjoyed those eye witness reports of your protest , you are to be congratulated at every level. It was of course right to exit the hall in solidarity with Palestinian attendees. Asking questions would only yield the Israeli Ambassador more time to spread propaganda. Well Done...you guys are great and I have deep respect for your conviction.

I just spoke with a pleasant gentleman at the Palestinian Delegation in Dublin, He informed me that they DID NOT receive an invitation to attend that meeting , he clarified that if they had been invited they absolutely would have attended. He was emphatic on that point.
He said that he had they had received an invitation to the next meeting, which they would be attending.

He confirmed that the delegation was operating at full capability but with difficulties under current circumstances. I wished him and his people good luck, and he thanked me kindly.

Once again , class action , well done.

by domhaineile Thu Oct 05, 2006 14:59

Overall the demonstration against the Israeli ambassador went very well. There was the hiccup with leaving too soon but that was not started by the Palestinian Solidarity Group in the Uni. A Palestinian member of the audience, whose mother was a refugee couldn't contain him anger at the propaganda spewed forth by that slithery man and began to shout. Most of us, acting in an individual capacity felt at the time that it wouldn't be right to leave him walking out on his own. We all knew where the speech was going before he ever started and the manner in which he avoided questions regarding the 46 U.N. resolutions ignored by Israel, the half a million illegal settlers and the imperialist occupation of Palestine during the Q and A at the end proved this.

A protest like this one hasn't happened on the N.U.I.G. campus for a long time and many of us hope it will herald the start of a new political and social awareness. We need to address some questions on what happened last night though before we continue our work.

Who does the president of the university represent exactly? We saw after the attempted boycott of coca cola a while back that he certainly sees fit to disregard the student voice if it is in his idea of the university's interests. Yesterday he warmly welcomed the ambassador of a rogue state which the U.N spoke out against many times without any consideration for how that campus body feels towards it. Granted we showed them how we felt throughout the day but is it enough for the Hierarchy of the college to be giving out a message that contravenes’s with how the majority on campus feels?

Second why was there such a large armed presence of special branch officers on campus yesterday? Judging by the knocks, bruises and threats (I’ll see you another night don't you worry) that many of us received they didn't seem to be there to protect the student body. There was also one Garda present with no identification on her. When asked we were told by another that that was because she's in training. when asked do they not have to wear identification too we were met with a stony silence. Have the Gardaí learnt anything from the Reclaim the Streets protest?

Finally and most important why did the college allow agents, reported to be armed, of a foreign military onto the university campus? The Israeli intelligence has been implicated in kidnapping and assassinations from Italy to Sweden to Iran. Mordechai Vanunu, a man who spent 18 years in prison, 12 of these in solitary confinement for revealing Israel’s nuclear weapons secrets, something they deny having to this day, is probably their most famous victim.
The female Israeli Intelligence agent’s final gesture of raising her middle finger in the air to all of us probably said more about their real policies and views than all of Zion’s answers together.

by raymond deane - IPSC Thu Oct 05, 2006 17:22

Someone calling him/herself "No surprise" writes: "better asking why the Palestinian delegate refused to answer the call to appear!! least the Israeli had the pride to turn up."

According to the Palestinian Delegation in Dublin, no such invitation was received. The Palestinian Delegates to this country have always made themselves available UNCONDITIONALLY for public discussion and debate - and I am no great fan of Fatah or the PA!

In fact this Israeli Ambassador, whose monstrous lies while he was a Consul in the US are on record, has - like his predecessor - made his appearance at such events conditional on there being NO DEBATE!!! This makes it very easy to have "the pride to turn up".

The reason, of course, is that these people haven't got a leg to stand on and any reasonably well-informed interlocutor can demolish their fascistic lies with a few well-chosen facts.

by MC - law soc Thu Oct 05, 2006 18:08

We also considered last night a success, the protests added to the night, anything less would have been an anti- climax for us, we actually expected a greater protest. looks like its success on both sides then.

by R. Isible Thu Oct 05, 2006 18:17

Doesn't say much for the ethical stance of the NUIG Law Soc if they're happy to host the official representative of a country that's in violation of so many international laws. Take a bow.

by not right Thu Oct 05, 2006 18:53

What we have done is invited both the Israeli and Palestinian Ambassador
in order to raise awareness of the very serious developments that took
place over the summer months.

We invited each ambassador on the basis that we were inviting the other.
We have as yet, received no reply from the Palestinian Delegate.

Sincerely,

___________ (removed name to protect their privacy, just to be fair)
Auditor

Well if you state that the Palestinians were open to discussion WHY does the law society say they INVITED them and they did not respond....

somebody is lying here......and its not the Israeli because he turned up!!

by questions Thu Oct 05, 2006 19:03

In fact this Israeli Ambassador, whose monstrous lies while he was a Consul in the US are on record, has - like his predecessor - made his appearance at such events conditional on there being NO DEBATE!!! This makes it very easy to have "the pride to turn up

Well given the response of the law society above(in the other persons post)

We invited each ambassador on the basis that we were inviting the other

And seeing that the Israeli turned up kinda makes you out to be a bit of a lier then or the law society lied??

i know which one i would believe

by Lawsoc - NUIG Law Society Thu Oct 05, 2006 19:11

The protesters interrupted the Law Society meeting for only a few minutes. The meeting proceeded for over an hour following that brief interruption, and the Ambassador engaged in a questions and answers session for over an hour once he had completed his initial address. Nearly everyone in the audience who wished to ask a question- with the exception of two or three- got the opportunity to do so. The Law Society considers the night a success- our purpose is to promote awareness and critical thinking among the student body in relation to current, legal and political issues and we endeavour to do this by inviting guest speakers who are relevant to these issues.

The night was a success because awareness of the current conflict has without question been raised. The standard of questions put forward was in general very high, and illustrative of an informed and critical audience who were happy to have the opportunity to raise their issues and engage in discussion with the Ambassador.

The Law Society is currently in communication with the Palestinian Embassy to arrange a date for Ambassador Ajjuri to visit and is in no way discouraged by Wednesday evening's controversy.

by Christina - Palestinian Solidarity Thu Oct 05, 2006 19:34

As soon as his "excellency" ( who is he trying to kid) entered the student lecture hall, he launched into a fairytale worthy of Hans Christian Anderson. Every statement he made was completely fictitious, riddled with propaganda, lies and deceit. He failed to show us a few holiday snaps of his country's summer vacation in Lebanon. I believe it was somewhat explosive.

by Fred Johnston Thu Oct 05, 2006 21:10

No one should be surprised that the Israeli ambassador came out with 'untruths' at the Lawsoc meeting - someone once wrote that it is an ambassador's job to lie for his country. And it is Israel's job to continue the lie that they are oppressed, endangered, and under constant threat, when in fact they are a dangerous aggressor backed by the militaristic psychopathy of the current US administration (and others before this one, God knows.) I am interested that 'Lawsoc' maintains that the Society is currently negotiating with the Palestinians to have a representative speak next - I thought they'd already invited him?

As for last night's demo - I was not alone in expressing confusion when it came to what we were actually supposed to be doing there. Were we to gather outside and protest or, as many did, join the queue and actually go into the talk? When groups of people joined the queue and went inside, naturally the demonstrating group OUTSIDE was immediately diminished. As with any protest or demonstration, it is vitally important that the approach is made clear from the outset; that people know what they are supposed to do. Sadly, I must admit that I talked to banner-carriers who knew nothing about the Israeli ambassador, not even whether he was a 'hawk' or a 'dove', for instance, which I would've imagined was a fairly basic thing. If you don't know what you are demonstrating for or against, don't demonstrate. It's not a 'daring' teenage outing to tell the kids about when you grow up, and though it's always good to see young people turn up, it's not supposed to be a substitute for going to a disco. READ, LEARN, UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES before you go out. Nonetheless, everyone who turned up in the cold last evening deserves credit.

I am wondering why the faculty of NUI,Galway were so conspicuously absent last night - no, sorry, I take it back. I am NOT wondering why they were absent. Galway university ain't no hotbed of radical thought, though one or two lecturers and tutors are brave and stand out. As for Galway's writers . . . well, some of them know very well what side their bread's buttered on, and are canny enough to stay away from any demo on turf where they might one day wish to build a nest. It's a different kind of politics.

by avi15 Thu Oct 05, 2006 23:57

I don't really like to rain on your Israel hate-fest parade, but of course it was quite right that the representative of the world's only Jewish state (you know, that people that have been kicked, spat at and massacred down through the ages) should encounter so many totally closed minds. Just so many people who absolutely refuse even for a moment to listen to the other side of the argument. I am just asking whether this is just pure bigotry or is there also some fear that the Israeli ambassador might not be the monster you are trying to make out he is, or that Israel is not the demon state you need it to be, or that at some brief moment, you might be 'infected' with our views and think that we might, just occasionally, have a point.

Are Jews devils? Is this what you think and is this why Ireland has now outside Dublin more or less completely rid itself of its Jewish population. On one of my flying visits to the Emeral Isle, a couple of weeks ago, I spent several hours cleaning all the beer cans, bottles, condoms and other trash out of the Jewish cemetery in Limerick. If I had had a lawn mower with me, I would have cut the grass, too. Limerick City Council doesn't seem to care very much about it. This upsets us, but we're not islamists, so we're not going to firebomb you.

Incidentally, distinctions between Israel and Jews are fundamentally spurious. The Jews' name for themselves in Hebrew is 'the children of Israel'. If you discriminate against Israel, you discriminate against Jews. Think very carefully about where you have arrived at, my friends, next time you are calling someone a fascist.

by PaddyK Fri Oct 06, 2006 14:37

If by "our views" you mean the views of bigotted, pe-programmed Anti-Palestinian drones , well then I dont think we need fear that anymore. You see, we live in the information age. It used to be easy to seal off villages in Palestine then go in and flatten houses, shoot children and kidnap their parents and then allow a story to be published relating to a heroic righteous army thwarting a terrorist plot There was a lack of truth in the public realm that served your purpose there. Most people have a fair idea now what is actually happening because even the Palestinians can get their reports onto the internet. So their is good immunity now to the disease that you spread.

"On one of my flying visits to the Emeral Isle, a couple of weeks ago, I spent several hours cleaning all the beer cans, bottles, condoms and other trash out of the Jewish cemetery in Limerick. If I had had a lawn mower with me, I would have cut the grass, too. Limerick City Council doesn't seem to care very much about it."

I'm sorry, I'm a bit slow. Are you saying that it was Limerick's Horny teenagers or the County Council that carried out the Holocaust?

"Incidentally, distinctions between Israel and Jews are fundamentally spurious. The Jews' name for themselves in Hebrew is 'the children of Israel'. If you discriminate against Israel, you discriminate against Jews."

Wow, thats amazing, did you know that Paki means Pure and when you say Pakistan is a hot bed of Islamic Fascism you insult all pure people ? So if you discriminate against Pakistan you discriminate against little black babies. I know it sounds like shit but it true.

You should bring a lawn mower next time you are coming to ireland but if you are coming through London dont bring a can of petrol beacause they wont let you on the plane with liquids.

by Fred Johnston Fri Oct 06, 2006 14:51

Conflation of the word 'Israeli' with the word 'Jew' is a common tactic intended to deflect argument; are there not Israeli Arabs, Christians, Copts? Why, when I turn on the TV for a news report from Israel, am I likely to be listening to a Californian or New York accent saying 'This land is mine?' When Israeli policy is to deny Right of Return to displaced Palestinians - a blight on every notion of human rights? How many true-born 'Israelis' ARE there in those illegal settlements, Avi? Israeli state smugness is dependent entirely on US strategic support - it is a puppet-state, and has been rightly described as America's biggest aircraft-carrier in the Middle East. If that's how you chose to live and call it freedom . . . . . Israel is not the victim, Avi, that myth is out the window long-since. Israel has committed appalling crimes against the Palestinians, the Lebanese: a lot of people simply couldn't stand to listen to the Israeli Ambassador spouting more arrogant drivel at Galway university, and they walked. If Israel is the victim of anything or anyone, it is the victim of US strategic policy. Can you accept that?

by Aoife Fri Oct 06, 2006 16:14

Fred, the big flaw in your argument is the undeniable fact of your own silence during the troubles. The Northern state was a pseudo-democracy, just like Israel is. The minority were abused appallingly until 1969, when things exploded. What did you have to say about this? Very little. No doubt if you were an Israeli who would be a staunch supporter of the IRA in the way that you are now a staunch supporter of the Palestinians. It's easy to support farway revolutions, and stay quiet about what's going on on your doorstep.

by eyes wide shut Fri Oct 06, 2006 16:36

It's easy to support farway revolutions, and stay quiet about what's going on on your doorstep

Indeed even easier when you have half a story, not a complete picture and in your eyes only one party is at fault and the other is blameless

by Lucille Fri Oct 06, 2006 23:56

are there any ideas about a sustainable long term solution to the Israel/Palestine problem?

While the Israeli's have done great wrongs, particularly to the Palestinians, they are also a most sinned against people. Any constructive debate has to take account of this fact.

by PaddyK Sat Oct 07, 2006 00:33

Yes there is a solution format on the table. It's very well known what that solution is. Unfortunately nobody wants peace but the Palestinians and unlike you they don't have any tears for Israel, just a simple request for a return to International law and Human rights.
I know..terribly boring all that peace and democracy, how mundane.

by Totti Sat Oct 07, 2006 00:54

The palestinian people have to suffer, being murdered, evicted etc because jewish people have been sinned against before? What kind of logic is that? Oppressing and terrorising the palestinians is wrong full stop and I don't care who does it. I know that certain people use the holocaust to divert critisism away from Israel and to silence its critics.

by Lucille Sat Oct 07, 2006 01:05

Yes I do have tears for Israel as well as Palestine, I have tears for all victims of this, regardless of their identity. Do tell us PaddyK, what is the solution format that is well known? I don't see how you can say that only Palestinians want peace, people from both sides want peace just as there are those from both sides who don't and are unprepared to compromise.

Sorry Totti, you have misunderstood me. I do not think that Palestinian people should suffer due to past persecution of Jews. What I meant is that Palestinians have killed Israelis as well as the other way around. In fact, even after the Holocaust which is the most obvious example of Jewish persecution, many Arab countries persecuted their large Jewish populations which caused many hundreds of thousands of Jews to have to leave their native lands. These people went to Israel.

by Arthur Sat Oct 07, 2006 02:33

"The palestinian people have to suffer, being murdered, evicted etc because jewish people have been sinned against before? What kind of logic is that? Oppressing and terrorising the palestinians is wrong full stop and I don't care who does it. I know that certain people use the holocaust to divert critisism away from Israel and to silence its critics"

The palestinians have suffred because of the cynical arab nations that surround them. Had they accepted partition in 1947, Israel would be a small nation next to an equally small Arab nation. Instead, the Arabs chose war.
Still coming off their high from the glory days:
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com

You have to wonder why 20% of Israel's population is rArab, and they CHOOSE to live their instead of among their Arab brothers.
The answer of course is clear. Arabs can vote in Israel. They enjoy the highest standard of living in the region, and their religion is respected. They enjoy the freedoms of a multicultural westernized society.

by Lucille Sat Oct 07, 2006 02:43

Arthur it is hard to believe that the Palestinians enjoy a higher standard of living than their Arab neighbours, considering that such a high proportion of Palestinian children are malnourished and Palestinian people are in danger from the Israeli army, as well as the fighting between factions.

The Palestinians are linguistically and culturally similar to their Arab neighbours to be sure, but I would not use this as an argument for them to simply merge. But it is somewhat surprising that Palestinians have not received more aid from other Arab countries.

by Arthur Sat Oct 07, 2006 02:51

"Arthur it is hard to believe that the Palestinians enjoy a higher standard of living than their Arab neighbours, considering that such a high proportion of Palestinian children are malnourished and Palestinian people are in danger from the Israeli army, as well as the fighting between factions."

The palestinians that are Israeli citizens do indeed enjoy higheer standard of living. Those living in PA/Hamas controlled areas are vicitms of their "leaders", who have convinced them to blow themselves up while murdering civilians, while pocketing the funds that have been donated to them. Yasser is said to have had between 3 and 7 billion dollars, when he died. Not a bad bounty for a guy whose only job was terrorism.

The Gazans control their border aong with egypt. If they're starving, why aren't they smuggling food instad of guns? Why not smuggle building materials and create jobs and improve infrastructure? It's convenient to blam Israel but the real fault lies with the "palestinians" themselves

Since day one, when Israel withdrew from Gaza, the Gazans began firing kassam rockets. They were given hot houses along with 12,000 jobs and an established market for the products. It only took them one day to destroy the hothouses.

by Lucille Sat Oct 07, 2006 03:28

...apportioning blame isn't helping.

that may well be true, but what do you suggest should be done? The reality is that the people calling themselves Palestinians are descended from people who had their land taken. They are not going to be happy until some solution has been found, ie compensation for their land?

by Arthur Sat Oct 07, 2006 04:08

"he reality is that the people calling themselves Palestinians are descended from people who had their land taken. "

They had "their " land taken by Trans Jordan and Egypt. It wasn't unitl Egypt and Jordan lost the territiries they had occupied for 20 years, that the "palestinians" were created.
Most "palestinians" in the "west bank" still hold jordanian passports.

The problem is, the general population among the arabs is a majority under 20 years old. They have no memory of the brutal Arab occupations of "their" land.

Do you honestly believe that if Trans Jordan, Egypt and Syria had succeeded in 1948 in their war of extermination that there would have been a "palestinian" state created?

The cynical arabs have, and continue to be the source of the "palestionians" problems. Today, their Prime minister stated that he would not recognize Israel. More of the same is on the way.

Time to put the blame squarely where it belongs. No pity for the palis that choose hamas.

by pat c Sat Oct 07, 2006 15:16

supporting palestine against zionist aggression is a single issue campaign.FFers FGers, all should be welcome. your views on the North are irrelevant to this issue. If i disagree with you on them then i wont do so on this thread.

Fred, dont let yourself be provoked. Keep up the good work on behalf of Palestine and against the war in Iraq.

by Daithi Sat Oct 07, 2006 16:12

supporting the Provos, I think he or she would inevitably face the question of where they stood in relation the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians. It's just the same thing in reverse. On a couple of occasions Johnston has written poisonous pro-British army anti-Sinn Fein pieces. It's a question that's inevitably going to come up

by PaddyK Sat Oct 07, 2006 16:51

Arthur is either completeley ignorant of the situation or is a deliberate instigator of Anti-Palestinian hatred. The people of Gaza do not have control over their border with Egypt at all. This border is controlled by Israel. The Arabs in Israel do not enjoy respect from the government. On the contrary they are descriminated against in every level of society. And to say that any other religion other than Judaism enjoys the full respect of the Israeli governing regime is pure farce. Most Palestinaians do not have Jordanian passports and Hamas would recognise Israel as part of an implemented peace plan. Arthur represents what has been rotten in this discourse since day one.
Trying to create the impression that Palestinians are the same as Jordanians is part of the ethnic-cleansing ideology of the extreme right. They legitimise the atrocities in Palestine by implying that these people could just as easily move to Jordan but choose to stay in occupied Palestine just because they hate the Jews. It is complete stupidity and blatant race hatred. Its like trying to assert that the people of Darfur are looking for trouble by living in Sudan . You wont hear to many people saying that the refugees in Darfur should go to Chad because they are black... no and why? Because it wold be pathalogically racist as is Arthur's diatribe.

There are no immediate comparisons between Palestine and Northern Ireland that bare of any real value to solving the current Palestine crisis peacefully. Other than to observe the transition of paramilitary organisations to political ones. It is a slow and often disingenuous process, but it is utterly intrinsic to the overall scheme. Hamas are on that course, to what extent we dont know as we dont really know to what extent the IRA are on that course. The IMC has recently declared that the IRA are indeed organisationally disbanding and contributing to the peace process. This can only be good and was only achieved by inclusion in the political process. The refusal to allow the Palestinians to partake in the political process by killing and kidnapping their elected representatives is indicative of how far away from the negototiating table Israel is. This is where they intend to stay and they are being facilitated in this by primarily the US and in general by all Western States. Only the Palsetinians are at the negotiating table. But of course that stands to reason, for it is they who stand to lose everything through the status Quo. Their only option is the return to full scale war which would be a disaster for them. So they must wait and starve and die and wait.
What are they waiting for? They are waiting for the International community to force Israel to abide by all previous rulings and agreements. I.e. the removal of the illegal wall, the release and recognition of the Hamas government as the rightful representatives of the Palestinian people under accepted democratic principles. The removal of settlements from Palestine, the release of some 10000 political prisoners and the opening of all borders, ports and airports for the free passage of the sovereign palestinian people to and from their state. Once this process has started then it will be true to say that the lessons being learned in Northern Irreland in conflict resolution will be applicable. For now the Northern Ireland model is no more comparable to Palestine than it is to Sudan or Rwanda.

The solution to the Palestinian [probel lieds in forcing Israel to recognise a Palestinian State on the Pre 67 lands and Gaza with a cappital in East Jerusalem. This can be done by placing a complete emnbargo on Israel. The demosrtation in NUI was a good example of a diplomatic embargo being enforced by Irish citizens against the apparatus of the Israel regime. The Israeli Ambassador should be expelled until Israel starts to comply with International law but Ireland, as a political entity, is complicit with the occupation.

by Eileen Sat Oct 07, 2006 18:07

I thought the remark by Fred Johnston about students taking part in the demo was most condescending

"If you don't know what you are demonstrating for or against, don't demonstrate. It's not a 'daring' teenage outing to tell the kids about when you grow up, and though it's always good to see young people turn up, it's not supposed to be a substitute for going to a disco. READ, LEARN, UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES before you go out." Fred Johnston

by Bitterest Pill Sun Oct 08, 2006 22:36

I do not know Fred Johnson. I had never even seem him anywhere until last tuesdays demo at MIllstreet Garda Station, nor had I ever heard of him or read anything he has written. He then showed up the following day in the University for the Israeli ambassador. Where is he who is so wise when we are planning these events? Does he think he can just show up and in a Harry Enfield manner tell us 'You don't want to do that.' Fred and all who support these issues are more than welcome at such events but it seems to me that Mr. Johnsons ego is his primary concern. As somebody who was on the ground I'd say that any one of the students he criticises is worth ten of him. There is a new vibrancy emerging on the left in Galway and it is coming from the youth because the more 'seasoned' activists are only interested in long running personal grievances and grandstanding.

by up in smoke Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:33

Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh has said that his Hamas-led government would not recognise Israel and added that a widely touted Arab peace plan is problematic because it does. Haniyeh repeated the Islamic group's hardline principle in the face of crippling Western aid sanctions that have bankrupted his government, leading to strikes and protests by public service workers and clashes between Hamas forces and police identified with the rival Fatah. Addressing an Iftar feast at the end of a day of Ramadan fasting, Haniyeh said Hamas and the government "will not recognise or normalise" relations with Israel.

There YA GO paddyk

From the horses mouth so to speak, Israel cannot deal with such ignorance, all Hamas want is war and to further the misery for their people and spend aid money on arms, more of the same really

On day they will get a leader that is actually a leader and not a shister...

one day....

by wise up Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:08

The people of Gaza do not have control over their border with Egypt at all. This border is controlled by Israel.

Incorrect, the PA controlled it for a long time and it is currently under hamas control with assurances from Egypt to Israel that Egyptian troops are deployed to combat arms smuggling which the Egyptians agreed to do

Most Palestinaians do not have Jordanian passports and Hamas would recognise Israel as part of an implemented peace plan

Incorrect again, all palestinians are entitled to Jordanian passports as it made up 80% of what you see as palestine, as above on the recognising Israel
I quote:
Jordan has granted temporary national passports to Palestinians.(this is fact and the fact that you dont know this says a lot)

check it out yourself at a proper site, im sure youll find it

Only the Palsetinians are at the negotiating table

Incorrect, hamas just proved that again

paddyk you need a history lesson, there is only one person here telling porkies and i am afraid you need to stop relying on counterdumb and such for information as it is false and start looking for the truth

Eithier that or you are deliberately spreading false and inaccurate information as fact

by wise up Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:52

i would like to add a couple of more points which are fact..not the fiction that some spew forth

perhaps paddyk can indulge me with his wondrous indepth knowledge

How many Jews were expelled from all arab lands in 1948? do they have so called ***right of return?**(as they were arab citizens with valid passports for the nations they got expelled from after all)

i will give you a hint

Iraq saw 120,000 jews expelled!!!!

if the arab nations flatly refuse right of return to all the jews expelled why would Israel grant the palestinians that very same right?

here endith the food for thought

by anon Mon Oct 09, 2006 16:05

The only solution to the problem, is an economicly and politicly viable state of Palastine, which has never been offered by the Israeli government, even after Fatah recognised the state of Israel during Arafat's time in power. This is why these protests are necesary in the present climate of war crimes and atrosities on both sides. They are an attempt to force the Israelis to offer a solution that the Palastinians can actualy accecept, in otherwords, a two state solution that wont leave them compleatly economicly and politicaly strangled by the Israeli state. I only wish the protesters waited at least until question time before the walk out (which was democraticly decided the night before to happen only in question time) so they would have herd this and many other relevant points made by those who asked the tyrant very difficult questions. He was embarased and humiliated not by the walk out, but by these difficult questions and points raised. Thanks for taking the time to read my point. I have remained anon to avoid personal attacks which, i hate to say, are becoming much too common on the left in recent times and campaigns.

by wise up Mon Oct 09, 2006 16:45

is an economicly and politicly viable state of Palastine, which has never been offered by the Israeli government,

errr, Incorrect!

how easily people forget, here is a reminder:

The shocking extent of the Israeli government's willingness to return almost to the borders of 1949 forced Shas, Yisrael B'Aliya and the National Religious party to quit Mr. Barak's government even before the Camp David Summit could begin

barak offered exactly what you say Israel has never offered, and arafat threw it back in his face

I wish people here would know facts before spouting lies

by ray Mon Oct 16, 2006 17:19

the man also contradicted himself on several occasions...... in one instance he stated how hamas were a terorist group hell-bent on disrupting any form of peace in the region... while a few minutes later he stated that he believed that we could one day see a hamas led government recognised by israel..... does that not mean that if they can be recognised as a political party then they should also be recognised as a freedom fighting group by israel. this man not only spoke lies.....he spoke lies he couldnt believe or back up.... shame on the law society for bringing a criminal to the college.

by PaddyK Mon Oct 16, 2006 23:33

I'm putting aside the above, anonymous, unfounded, "cut-and-pasted" (yet unattributed) collage of half notions in order to clarify a single point. When the point is made then one can reassess the half quotes and midstream interjections that Nobody, here is trying to string together into a picture that dams the Palestinians.

Today the Palestinians are on their knees. When I say today, I mean October 16 2006. They are starved, beaten, boycotted, blackmailed, let go from their jobs, locked into their towns. Deprived of all commonly accepted freedom. They are a captive people. They are fighting for the continued existence of their very families.
The besieged Palestinian people have no recourse to mercy.
Yeh, I know. It's Not the only place in the world here such a human nightmare exists but it's the only human nightmare that has the full support of the European Union and remains enforced by your tax Euros.

Please, find another people in the world that is being OFFICIALLY starved by the European Union today. Bob Geldoff can plod around filling rice bowls all he likes. Our government is now engaged in forced mass starvation politics. The West is now generating human tragedies as a form of political intervention. Where next?

Thats really the point, in essence.

The Palestinians will Make peace with Israel when they are given some human rights. Until then, they will refuse to accept that it is legitimate to kill them off for Middle Eastern political ends, to use them, their families and their homes as today's no mans land.

They are not being boycotted, starved and killed because their government has declared war on Israel, or even Ireland. They are being starved to death because nobody really wants to hear what they want at all. We just want them to go away, and then we will pretend it was fixed and we will all go on holidays to the Holy Land.
If we did want them to live in peace with their neighbours then we would let them speak, we would lift the sanctions, we would command Israel to stop shelling, shooting and beating their people. We would force Israel to stop the cleansing from Palestine of the indigenous people. If only for a month.

We would invite all their representatives to speak , here, in Europe, or even Ireland.

Then all the Half wits on both sides could have an informed say. It's called democracy.

by Lucille Tue Oct 17, 2006 02:10

I'm not trying to antagonise anyone here by saying this but I know it might get some people angry.

Paddyk is it not true that the EU and the West have been the Palestinians biggest aid givers? How can it then be said that the EU is harming the Palestinians?

I have been reading the above posts with interest, if it is true that a Palestinian state was offered to the Palestinians and they turned it down, if its true that most Palestinians are entitled to Jordanian passports and if it is true that successive Palestinian regimes with few exceptions refuse to recognize Israel, then it is seems that the situation is not as one sided as PaddyK would have us believe.

But that is just an opinion on what is presented here.

by mlk Thu Oct 26, 2006 17:27

it is true that a palestinian state was offered and it is true that the west is the biggest donater of aid to the palestinians. however what you failed to mention was the fact that israel was created in 1948 by america from 78 per cent of palestine. they then occupied the remaining 22 per cent. the offer of a palestinian state was that palestinians would control the occupied 22 per cent while they would have to admit they had no right that to the remaining 78 per cent of their own land and the issue would never be discussed in the future. to add to this israel threatened to re-occupy the palestinian state if the ever breached this agreement. how could anyone possibly expect palestinians to accept this. on the aid issue, you are simply ignoring the fact that britian and america have armed israel from 1948 and if you look at the figures you will see that the amount of arms going to israel to fight the palestinians is double if not treble the amount of aid going to palestinians.

by oh noes Thu Oct 26, 2006 17:49

however what you failed to mention was the fact that israel was created in 1948 by america from 78 per cent of palestine. they then occupied the remaining 22 per cent. the offer of a palestinian state was that palestinians would control the occupied 22 per cent while they would have to admit they had no right that to the remaining 78 per cent of their own land and the issue would never be discussed in the future. to add to this israel threatened to re-occupy the palestinian state if the ever breached this agreement. how could anyone possibly expect palestinians to accept this. on the aid issue, you are simply ignoring the fact that britian and america have armed israel from 1948 and if you look at the figures you will see that the amount of arms going to israel to fight the palestinians is double if not treble the amount of aid going to palestinians.

THE above dribble is some of the most ill educated crap i have ever heard. Sorry but you actually have it arseways my friend.

1)the UN created Israel by a clear majority vote
2) 78% of Palestine actually created JORDAN in 1948 also by a clear majority vote(the same vote)

the fact that you have this so arseways it aint funny, Did the IPSC spin ya this garble>?

by oh noes Thu Oct 26, 2006 18:22

Also take a read of the palestinian mandate which was created out of the balfour declaration.

People dismiss the balfour declaration as it was a letter, most however fail to realise that that letter led to the Palestinian mandate in 1922.

enought of the real DOCUMENTED history

im sure some will try to twist and turn what is written in black and white