No Increase in Bin Tag Charge in Fingal Budget 2004

by Michael O'Brien - SP/Fingal Anti Bin Tax Campaign Tue Dec 16, 2003 15:06

When the protests and blocades were taking place Fingal were forced into constant denials about the privitization agenda as well as the likelyhood of big increases during radio and TV debates.

Fingal is currently ruled by a FF/FG coalition like most of the councils which have hiked the charge and/or privitized the service. The only thing holding them back in the short term is a fear of giving a new impetus to the campaign. Fingal also happens to be where the SP is running seven candidates in the local elections.

Let's see what they try to do after the elections next year.

by FFer - from Dublin 15 Tue Dec 16, 2003 15:21

Fingal also happens to be the Council where 99%+ of people are paying despite all the crap from SP. Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat is not going to work, Michael. Having said that it is great to see SP attaching importance to a democratic mandate in the local elections - this must be a first!

PS Note to your candidates - ability to throw a bag of rubbish (especially spongers rubbish) will not be considered a positive by the punters.

by Michael O'Brien - SP/FABTC Tue Dec 16, 2003 15:42

That there was 70%+ non payment before the policy of non collection began in Fingal. If there was so much support for the charge they wouldn't have had to change the law.

In terms of democratic mandates the SP stuck with it 1999 local election promise to fight the tax wheras the FF/FG coalition was gave no warning to people on there stand on the issue.

Note that when FF/FG lose their waffer thin majority in Fingal next year corruption in planning will also be dealt a blow.

by FFer - from Dn 15 Tue Dec 16, 2003 15:50

If there was real support for you, people would not have paid. Dream on.

by Michael O'Brien Tue Dec 16, 2003 15:54

So the small matter of not having you rubbish collected and the possibility of being taken to the high court had nothing to do with non payers buying a tag after 18 months of non payment?

Is this twit the best FF can come up with?

by Cynic - The World Tue Dec 16, 2003 15:57

So it was about creating profiles for your local election candidates after all?

by Jonah Tue Dec 16, 2003 15:59

So yeah, first of all, I suppose the non-payment campaign in Dublin City and am not paying myself.

Secondly, I think the reasons the increase didn't take place in Fingal, and did take place in Dublin City and elsewhere are many and varied but I DO think that the strength of the campaign in Fingal had a lot to do with it.

That said, people who are refusing to pay their Bin Tax and who are not having their rubbish collected are, in increasing numbers while still a minority of the people not paying, taking to dumping their rubbish in laneways, wasteground and in one case I know of, a person's garden.

Now these are very much the exception rather than the rule, but it is taking place and I'd say it is reducing support for the campaign that exists. Two hundred yards from where I live bags have been dumped behind a community centre and there's loads of them there now. It's becoming a health hazard.

This is not an attack on the campaign, but a plea to the campaign leadership to make sure that their supporters, people who are not paying, are dealing with their waste in some way other than dumping it anywhere they can find.

by Michael O'Brien Tue Dec 16, 2003 16:02

Maybe we should resign our two seats and not contest the elections to prove our bona fides to you. Somehow I don't think you would be satisfied. I'm not even clear if you are for or against the charge from your brainless posting!

by Michael O'Brien Tue Dec 16, 2003 16:19

We have taken the approach you suggest in not advocating illegal dumping or burning waste. However the fact it happens is yet another arguement against the bin tax especially in those counties where the charge amounts to a tenner a week plus which some people just can't afford and before you mention the waiver FFer or Cynic there is no legal obligation on the local authorities to maintain a waiver system and where the service has been privitized the waiver system has often been abolished or reduced.

by SPectator Tue Dec 16, 2003 18:32

The SP magnificent Seven include some rather odd candidates. Theres Helen Redwood who no one ever heard of before she was selected as a SP candidate. Maybe shes married to or related to some SP General. Speaking of SP Generals there is Michael OBrien himself. Now Civil Servants are barred from standing for election. So does MOB intend to resign from the Civil Service or is he performing a blocking move to prevent some other SP member from being nominated in his Ward? Perhaps he would enlighten us regarding this.

by SParticipant Tue Dec 16, 2003 19:19

SPectator. If you are concerned at the candidates the SP are selecting or if you have any questions why don't you ring the SP offices. Last time i was in the real world I checked the phone book and guess what.... they're number is listed.

P.S. i wonder if your chosen name was a deliberate pun. because thats all you are - a spectator

by SPanner Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:10

"i wonder if your chosen name was a deliberate pun. because thats all you are - a spectator"

And the same goes for yours.
SPARTicipant.

by Democratic Socialist Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:11

The electorate of Fingal are entitled to know if Mr O'Brien is really standing or is his nomination merely a ploy to block a member who is not favoured by the SP Troika. The Troika have been in conflict with Clare Daly and other SP members who are of a more democratic leaning. This could well be part of the ongoing battle. The same is true in the Redwood case. She seems to be a creature of the Troika and was imposed to prevent a dissident being nominated.

The Troika have tightened their control over the SP recently by forcing Dermot Connolly to resign. Dermot has been a thorn in their side since he was removed from his job of General Secretary. He was left go after 25 years as a fulltimer with no redundancy and no pension. What a model employer the SP is.

It is well past time for Clare Daly and Joe Higgins to rise against the Troika. Their record and standing could win a majority and overthrow the Troika. This is an opportunity to put the SP on the path to being a Mass Party. Follow the example of the SPP, take the party away from the fulltimers, break with the CWI and build a real party of the Working Class.

by Me Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:21

Democratic Socialist. Who do you perceive the troika to be? Everybody seems to have different troikas.

And what is the SPP?

by Democratic Socialist Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:30

I see the Troika as consisting of Michael O'Brirn, Stephen Boyd , Kevin McLaughlin. These are the three who rule the SP with a rod of iron. I meant to write SSP. Scottish Socialist Party.

by Me Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:42

Your having a laugh!! Michael O'Brien part of the troika. MOB can barely be trusted with the IAWM brief. There's not many SP members who show such reverence to RBB and KA. There are puppies who have more chance of being in the troika than MOB.

by SP member Wed Dec 17, 2003 13:12

Some of the above posting are malicous gossip.

Michael O'Brien IS standing in the elections and the Party is behind his civil right to do so and legal advice is beign sought in that regard though it seems there are certain people using this forum for agitating for his dismissal. He lives in Rivervally Swords and has been active in that branch of the party for 5 years. His candidature has been announced with the rest in tens of thousands of copies of the Fingal Voice which is distributed throughout the local authority area. He has been an absolute stalwart in the anti bin tax campaign to which any activist in Rivervally would attest to.

No evidence has been presented for the insinuations in "democratic socilis'ts" postings. Whose candidature has Helen's or Michael's cut across?? Helen by the way lives in Mulhuddart and has played a brilliant role in Clonee and Ladyswell during the bin tax struggle. The fact she is English and was active in the SP in Britain seems to be behind some insinuations that she is not a deserving candidate.

Not a shred of documentary or anecdotal evidence has been produced to back up any claim of a division with Clare and Joe on the one hand and Michael, Steven and Kevin on the other. It's all nonsense.

by Interested Wed Dec 17, 2003 13:41

If Michael O'Brien is open about the issue then why has he and Steven Boyd been in touch with the Indymedia Editors demanding that the comment about O'Briens candidacy be deleted?

You are the first person to mention that Ms Redwood is English, paranoia methinks. It is strange though that a relative newcomer is chosen over long standing SP members. Was she sent to Ireland by the CWI leadership?

by Socialist Party member Wed Dec 17, 2003 14:28

Helen has been in Ireland for four or five years which doesn't make her a newcomer.

There is legal advice pending re Michael's candidacy. That's all I'm going to say about that for now. In terms of having the comment removed people shouldn't be using this site as a platform for hastening his dismissal for pushing the boundries of civil rights restrictions in the civil service.

There are other prominant civil servant activists on the left, from a range of organisations and none, some regular users of this site. Seemingly the restrictions civil servants face re activity in general are quite severe and fair play to you all for not bowing to management pressure.

I hope regardless of other differences with the SP or even with Michael personally that they publically support the stand he is taking.

by pat c Wed Dec 17, 2003 14:34

I am happy to add my support to Michael. This is a restriction on the civil rights of civil servants which should be fought by all democrats. On the IMC Editorial List I have argued that the original comment should be deleted.

by Interested Wed Dec 17, 2003 14:50

'Helen has been in Ireland for four or five years which doesn't make her a newcomer'

But it does make her a relative newcomer. There are members in the area who have been around for more than 10 years. Why were they passed over? Was she sent over by the CWI Leadership to ensure that the SP stayed true to Taafe?

by DS Wed Dec 17, 2003 14:57

I notice you have ignored my questions about Dermot Connolly not getting any redundancy or pension entitlements after 25 years of service to the SP/CWI. Do you believe that this is the proper way to treat an employee? This sort of treatment wouldnt even be defended by ISME.

by Moi Wed Dec 17, 2003 14:58

Nobody seems to be making an issue about civil servants who are members of right-wing parties. I'll bet there are a load of FFers, FGers, and PD members in the civil service, so why should members of left-wing parties be made to feel afraid that they may be hounded for expressing a viewpoint or revealing their party allegiances?

by Angry Civil Servant Wed Dec 17, 2003 15:06

Should be entitled to be openly active but generally they keep their heads down and maintain the facade of the service being above politics.

It's the left wing civil servants, the MO'Bs and the Pat Cs who push the boat out. I'm 100% behind them, I wish I had their guts.

by Socialist Party member Wed Dec 17, 2003 15:19

I challange you to name who has been overlooked with Helen's candidacy. Give me a shred of evidence that there is opposition to her.

There is no consistancy in the insinuations. We are told Helen shouldn't be a candidate because she is a blow in and presumably MO'B shouldn't be one because he's been around for ages and elected onto the leading bodies of the party and therefore not letting fresh talent emerge. It's all codswallop.

In terms of Dermot, he wasn't made redundant, he resigned from being full time work and recently resigned from the party. Redundancy and pension doesn't come into it and in be fair to him he hasn't sought it, the SP is a voluntary organisation constantly stretched financially. Dermot has political differences and he argued for them up to a point within the party before dropping out of party activity in favour of giving the bin tax his undivided attention. That is his right and good luck to him.

by Archivist Wed Dec 17, 2003 15:25

Helen gets a mention in the Rise of Militant (that classic book). She was on the National Editorial Board back in 1991 when they were discussing recommendations from the Executive Committee for a radical departure, particularly in Scotland, from the way in which Militant had traditionally organised.

If she's be in Ireland for three or four years and such an expert on LGBT politics you would think that the LGBT might have heard of her.

by SP member Wed Dec 17, 2003 15:37

I don't know what bearing "archivist's" point has on this debate. If nobody has any informed criticisms of Helen's candidature and record on the bin tax then I'm signing off this debate.

This thread began with gloating from Fingal County County that was speedily replied to by Michael and trolls have gone and diverted it to ridiculous personal criticisms of Helen and Michael. Shame on you.

by DS Wed Dec 17, 2003 15:44

Is it now the position of the SP that a worker should have no entitlement to redundancy or pension after 25 years service? The SP are on a nice little earner with the money they get as a party with a TD. Joe Higgins takes a workers wage so he could throw in a few bob. Then theres Joes expenses of €300 a week unvouched. Lets not forget Clare and Ruth, plenty of Council expenses.

The SP could well afford to compensate Dermot for his 25 years of service. Your claims that you have no responsiblity are a disgrace. But the claim that you cant afford it is whay would be expected from the worst sweatshop employer.

by Democratic Socialist Watcher Wed Dec 17, 2003 15:50

And he didn't seek severence pay. He resigned from being full time and took up alternative employment. The existing SP full timers including Kevin and Steven are volunteers for the party but I'm sure you don't care about their well being because that wouldn't fit in with your anti SP slant.

by DS Wed Dec 17, 2003 15:56

Are you saying Steven and Kevin are not paid a salary? Where does the State money the SP get go? What about pension entitlements?

Surely after 25 years service someone is entitled to redundancy and pension rights. In anyother employment Dermots situation would have been classed as voluntary redundancy.

by DSwtatcher Wed Dec 17, 2003 16:03

He wasn't made redundant, he resigned and took up alternative employement. He didn't seek severence pay or a pension. The wages and conditions he enjoyed were the same as the current full time volunteers. It's called revolutionary sacrafice.

by DS Wed Dec 17, 2003 16:13

It may also be in breach of Employment legislation. Are your fulltimers paid the Minimum Wage? The SP are breaking the law if they dont make a pension scheme available to their employees. The SP fulltimers are entitled to protection under employment legislation regarding redundancy etc. Do you pay tax and PRSI on behalf of them? Does your premises have a Health and Safety Statement? I intend to bring this exchange to the attention of the Labour Inspectorate , Revenue Commissioners, DSFA, the Pensions Board. and the HSA You can expect a couple of visits.

Again, in anyother employment, Dermot Connollys case would be treated as voluntary redundancy. You left him without a penny after 25 years of loyal service.

by John - ISN (personal capacity) Wed Dec 17, 2003 16:20

Once again I find myself in that lonely place - supporting pat c's position, that we on the left should be rallying to backing anybodys right to run for election as an issue of democracy.

The sad reality is that a large proportion of the Civil Service are FF/FG apparatchiks who, while they wouldn't be candidates, appear during elections for the canvass.

Personally I wouldn't hesitate to vote for MO'B if I could. He appears to me to be one of the more level headed SPers and is always willing to engage in discussion without the usual hackish nonesense. He also possesses a good sense of humour as well as being a committed socialist activist .

Good luck with the campaign Michael!

by Interested now Wed Dec 17, 2003 16:47

who are the other candidates and who is mrs. redwood cutting across?

by DSWatcher Wed Dec 17, 2003 16:47

You have no concept of voluntary commitment. Your bellicose threats are worthy of the right wing press calling on the state to scrutinize left wing activists. You are a disgrace.

This thread is doubly sinister, agitating for Michael O'Brien and full time volunteers for the SP to be hassled in their work. Casting aspersions that a particular candidate should have noterity in the LGBT community if she happens to be LGBT herself.

Shame on you all.

by Koba Wed Dec 17, 2003 16:54

"The SP might not be accountable to DS but they are accountable to the Department of Social Welfare."


Yeah. Thats right. The garda, the courts, prison and trhe media couldn't smash us but by god the dept of Social welfare will get us. grow up.

Still waiting DS. Do you want to meet up for that coffee???? ;-| or are you too busy being a spy and a rat

by Candidate announcement Wed Dec 17, 2003 16:56

Mulhuddart: Ruth Coppinger & Helen Redwood

Castleknock: Susan Fitzgerald

Swords: Clare Daly & Michael O'Brien

Balbriggan: Tadhg Kinehan

Howth: Brian Greene

The current make up of the council is:

6 FF, 6 Lab, 5 FG, 2 SP, 1 GP, 4 Ind including a former PD

by >>>>> Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:01

I don't recognise half of the 'candidates' - are they NEW SP!!??

by DS Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:03

All I am saying is that the employees of the SP are entitled to basic rights. Given the amount of money the SP gers from the State, Joes salary, councillors expenses and membership dues it is well able to pay fulltimers a living wage.

Why should the SP be exempt from Employment legislation? If any sweatshop employer was not paying tax and prsi, the minimum wage, pension contributions etc on behalf of its employees then the SP would be up in arms about it.

Why should the SP be allowed to act like a sweatshop employer?

by DSWatcher Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:07

Don't give me that. The volunteers you are so concerned about are the ones who will suffer most when you carry out your threats. The SP is a voluntary organisation and not a convential career choice. Now fuck off!

by DS Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:09

Why should the SP be allowed to exploit its employees? You can explain to Tax, Labour, Social Welfare and Health and Safety Inspectors why you think you are above the law.

by Historian Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:16

Even Lenin called them 'professional revolutionaries'.

by SP member Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:20

The redundancy issue is explained. The Public Offices Commission scrutinize party finances.

You have trouble getting your head around the concept of voluntary commitment which leads me to suspect you are not a socialist but a prize asshole.

by Lets talk sense - SP Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:24

The majority of the Southern (Republic of Ireland that is) Regional Executive Committee is made up of full timers inlcuding MW, SB, KmcL, MM, MB, FO'L.. Therefore by DS's logic the SP full timers are exploiting themselves!

by Koba Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:34

"All I am saying is that the employees of the SP are entitled to basic rights. Given the amount of money the SP gers from the State, Joes salary, councillors expenses and membership dues it is well able to pay fulltimers a living wage"

When you join the SP you will be entitled to the full financial reports which are produced annually at the National Conference. But I don't think you will join. Not because you disagree with SP positions but because it would mean doing work.

where are all the SP fulltimers complaining. maybe DS you should set up a union for fulltimers. but you would probably start off as a real fighting democratic union and in a couple of years have it signed up to Social Partnership.

The truth is every fulltimer is well aware of what wages they will receive when they go fulltime. Wages are agreed democratically by the Regional Committee. Like a significant section of workers. Ft'ers don't have pensions, or share options, or overtime nor do they receive benchmarking increases or are part of social partnership, but to be honest, i don't think thats why they went fulltime in the first place. Maybe careerists like you would expect more but that probably explains why you are a reactionary


want to go for that coffee? I'll Pay... out of my fulltimers wage.

by Mike Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:35

The disgusting behaviour of one person (with a couple of psuedonyms) on this thread has made me feel sick to my stomach. I am not a member of the SP, nor have I ever been or been tempted to be. I respect (most though not all of) their activists while I disagree vehemently with that organisations political views on a range of issues, most strongly on the six counties.

Still, to have some anonymous goon try to get an activist in trouble with his employers attempts to prevent civil servants from having an opinion is just fucking revolting. To have some other anonymous prick (or quite possibly the same one) follow that with an attempt to stir shit with the authorities for people who make sacrifices to volunteer for left wing political organisations is even worse. To see the oily little shit do so while claiming to be a "democratic socialist" and using people's first names in a chummy manner ("Stephen", "Kevin") is just the icing on the cake. Trying vainly to get activists in trouble with various incarnations of the state while hiding behing a range of false names is as low as it gets.

In fact, this is quite possibly a new low for indymedia.

by DS Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:41

SP workers are entitled to their rights as anyone else. The Labour, Tax, Wefare and other Inspectors will decise as to their employee staus. The fulltimers may be happy with the party now but if they ever fall out with the CWI Junta then they will need their rights.

Coming to a Political Party Office near you:

"An Inspector Calls"

Starring Elijah Wood as Kevin, Al Pacino as Steven and Gene Hackman as Peter Taafe with Vannessa Redgrave as Helen and Gwynth Paltrow as Ruth Coppinger.

by Koba Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:52

i would like to take this opportunity to thank DS ....and i think I speak for all SP fulltimers... for his continued loyalty over the years. Every battle we fought against the Stalinised CWI leadership ,DS was there for us. and on pain of facing state discpline for our being fulltime we would like to still thank Comrade DS for his constructive assistance. it matters not to us that he is - as Marx wrote - a spy in the workers movement. It matters not that we could face hefty fines or even jail because of our action.


But one question DS. Have you consulted the SP fulltimers as to their opinions on this matter.... only it seems that you are taking this approach out of concern for the welfare of the SP fulltimers and out of the kindness of your bottomless heart. (You must have the Xmas spirit)

by William Millar Wed Dec 17, 2003 19:06

"want to go for that coffee? I'll Pay... out of my fulltimers wage."

Can't be Boyd then. Modern science isn't advanced enough for the operation to aid him getting his hand into either his pocket or wallet.

by SP activist Wed Dec 17, 2003 21:36

Remember that this thread started with a posting about the bin tax in Fingal. Some people do not seem too interested in this issue. Perhaps those intent in turning it to an attack on the SP are doing so to deflect attention away from the real enemy of working people.

Most of the points have been adequately answered with the exception of one, i.e. the role of "full-timers" within left organisations. Many organisations, not just left political groups, operate because of the efforts of a number of volunteers. This is the case with the SP and the SWP and others as well. The SP does have paid employees that are covered by the relevent legislation and entitled to the same as every other worker. NONE of those mentioned in this thread are paid employees of the SP. Many of them do carry out voluntary work for the SP. The accounts of the SP are lodged and scrutinised each year with the Registrar of Political Parties. The employees are listed in this information. Members of the SP do receive certain monies as expenses for carrying out certain tasks for the SP. Those who insist on attempting to stir the s**t should at least make an effort to get their facts right, but then again all they are really interested in is stirring the s**t so the truth really is irrelevant

by Stephen Boyd Thu Dec 18, 2003 01:58

Your not the first to recognise the resemblance between myself and Al Pacino!

by G. V. W. Thu Dec 18, 2003 04:00

Wow! Another impersonation of Stephen Boyd! How original. When will you fianna fail muppets realise that the regular readers here can see through the impersonations and staged 'infighting'.
We all know that you are using the old British tactic of 'divide and conquer' to undermine co-operation between the different left wing parties. Great way to deflect attention away from the real issues - stealth taxes - the increasing gap between different socioeconomic groups - government support for an illegal war - and of course the corruption which fianna fail have been instrumental in developing over the past forty years - I could go on, but I would be here all night.
Fianna fail are rotten to the core.

by Attila - The Huns Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:34

This thread is hilarious and would give Apres Match a run for it's money. It seems that the self importance of the SPuckers is in inverse proportion to their political relevance. By the way the decision of Fingal not to increase the bin tax could not be anything to do with the campaign - what could you have done about it if they had?

by Militant Thu Dec 18, 2003 13:29

I dont believe the last contributor going under that name is really Stephen. Since I pointed out on another thread that Stephen would be better off doing what the work assigned to him by the Party i.e. editor of the Voice and Trade Union organiser rather than wasting his time on indymedia he seems to have got the hint and started ignoring all this trash.

I look forward to some improvement in the quality of the Voice. At the moment it even makes Socialist Worker look like an interesting read! Then I suppose it can't get worse than the last abominable issue. Oh for the days of Militant.

by freddy frog Thu Dec 18, 2003 14:52

If he did'nt get a retirment pakage, did you at least get him a watch????

I look forward to the next SP council in Fingal putting up the Bin-tax, due to financial constraints or something simmilar.

If any residents of fingal are reading this thread then please dont vote. For anyone, they are all motivated by a sense of power hungry self-abrobstion, the people on the street do not really matter to them except as a way to advance thier own improtance. This goes for any party who seeks your vote.

Dont vote, you'll only die disapointed!!!!!!

by ,,, Thu Dec 18, 2003 15:30

what long standing members wished to stand instead of helen redswood?
What are teh SP's chances in the election?? Id say clare daly and ruth copingers seats are pretty safe.

by L. Garnier Thu Dec 18, 2003 15:39

I find it unbeliveable how people like Freddy can call SP members 'power hungry'! Joining the SP is hardly a career move, if someone is power hungry they will join FF, PDs, Labour or even FG, not the Socialist Party. To say that 'the people on the street' don't matter to the SP or any other left activists is actually quite disgusting. Most SP members I know are very committed to 'the people on the street' as you say. The SP members that I know are very committed and dedicated to community campaigns and to the trade union movement. SP members were out in communities organising grass roots Direct Action against the Councils' policy of non-collection of bins.

Freddy, I agree with you that voting won't change anything. If you ask any SP member they will probably say the same. The fact is that the labour movement should use elections to their advantage by putting forward an alternative to the capitalist parties. This is the approach of the SP- using elections to put forward an alternative view on the political issues of the day.

by freddy frog Thu Dec 18, 2003 15:46

Are you all just mean then????

Maybe indymedia should put together a campain to raise the funds to get the poor f*** a watch or something, seems the SP dont want to.

by Tallyman Thu Dec 18, 2003 17:40

"What are teh SP's chances in the election?? Id say clare daly and ruth copingers seats are pretty safe."

I think Clare's seat is the only one that is a certainty. A lot of Joes vote is a personal vote. Ruth you would expect to win (and probably will) but it might depend on which ward Mary Lou runs in.
So no major SP breakthrough even though they have have just gone through one hell of a year.

by Michael O'Brien - FABTC & SP Thu Dec 18, 2003 17:43

From a number of door to door activities carried out by the FABTC and the SP over the last six weeks a better picture is emerging of the real state of play regarding what people have being doing with their waste.

The overwhelming majority of bins that are put out for collection are tagged. However what has come across to us from residents is that those who were non payers remain firmly opposed to the charge.

Many make alternative arrangements to dispose of their waste for example giving it to relatives and friends in neighbouring local authority areas where non collection hasn't been implemented.

Others who are around during the day throw the waste in the trucks themselves. This is done on an organised basis in some estates.

Others who aren't around during the day bring the waste to the dump in Baleally where it works out cheaper.

However the most common way opponents are dealing with the situation is putting the bin out with a tagged the least amount of times possible ie once every two, three or four weeks with the waste tightly crammed.

This tallys with what one bin worker told us where they have gone from having 1,600 pick ups per day on their routes to far less, sometimes as low a 700.

I don't have the council figures to hand but I'm told their targetted revenue for the bin tax hasn't been met.

While it is true, for the factors I earlier outlined that the charge hasn't gone up in Fingal this year the council do have another trick up their sleeve to improve revenue.

They intend to re-employ strict guildlines with how the waste is presented. For example if the lid isn't firmly down or if extra bags are left lying on top of or beside the bin they won't pick them up and instead put a white sticker on the bin which catalogues the various infringements and the respective boxes are ticked. These guildlines have existed all along but the council took a liberal attitude, being satisfied just to get people into the habit of buying the tag. Thus they will try to force people to put their bins out more frequently.

by DS Thu Dec 18, 2003 19:55

Any Inspectors call yet? Maybe you are exploiting underage SY members as well. I'll put in a report to the Childrens Ombudsman as well. I am bewildered as to why the SP think they are above the law. These laws were passed to protect workers.

You cannot sign your rights away. This clause in particular protects immigrant workers from exploitation. Otherwise the SP would be shiping in fulltimers from the colonies and sleeping them 10 to a room.

by CWI Left Opposition (External Faction) Thu Dec 18, 2003 20:11

Overthrow the Troika Thermidor! Joe, Clare and Ruth must act now and rally the democratic forces within the SP. The treacherous party machine must be overthrown if there is to be any hope of building a Mass Workers party. Take the High Road of the SSP!

Leave McLaughlin, Boyd and O'Brien in a minority, they will be just as impotent as the crypto-Stalinist Taafite minority in the SSP.

I implore the Democratic Socialists in the SP to take their courage in their hands and cast out the Troika Oligarchy!

by Fingal Tallyman Fri Dec 19, 2003 05:48

As for Ruth Coppinger being beaten by Mary Lou McDonald in the local elections. The person who posted that comment really does not have a clue with what is going on on the ground in Fingal. I would predict that the SP will remain the largest party in Mulhuddart, Ruth Coppinger will top the poll with a 1st preference well over the quota, McDonald (SF) is nowhere nearly as well known or respected as coppinger, the question really is will it be a 2nd SP seat or an SF seat for the last seat. In Swords Clare Daly will romp home with one of the largest votes in Fingal Co Co, the degree to which Daly transfers to O'Brien will determine whether the SP take the final seat in the Sword ward.

In the other areas the SP could well take seats in the Balbriggan ward and have outside chances in the Howth and the Castleknock/Blanchardstown wards. In the Balbriggan Town Council election the SP will in all liklihood win two seats.

by ,,,, Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:31

Mary lou is not standing in the local elections - she hasn't been seen for months.

by Tallyman Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:27

Let me guess then. Fingal Tallyman wouldn't happen to be a member of the SP would he?
Ruth is better known than Mary Lou. Perhaps now but come election time that will change. Mary Lou is the Euro candidate for SF and as such will receive lots of free publicity. Who was on Gerry's arm at the assembly elections. My original prediction was that Ruth would win a seat with a largely reduced vote than Joes. Its a prediction thats all but one that is not influenced by party blinkers which is plain to see when you compare with your fantastical prediction of maybe winning a seat in Castleknock, Howth or Balbriggan.

by trotwatch Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:53

Not by you perhaps. She may well keep the seat inherited from Joe (radicals used to be dead against this sort of nepotism at one time) but aprt from Daly that will be the limit for the SP in Fingal and in the state overall, and I am prepared to place a large bet on that. In fact once the workers and youth relaise the mess that you've made of the campaign it is possible that even those seats might not be assured.

by Tired Fri Dec 19, 2003 14:35

The shenanigans within various left parties are just one big yawn. This kind of "tis - tisn't" nonsense has nothing to do with the bin tax. You should take your petty squabbles down to whatever watering hole ye normally inflict yerselves on, and not waste the time of genuine activists who read this site.

by Chekov - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Fri Dec 19, 2003 16:53

Could any genuine critics of the SP please refrain from dragging all threads that have the faintest connection with them into an examination of their internal life. Some people are interested in the bin tax campaign and other issues, not the SP. If you want to write an article about the SP, this is an open publishing site and nothing is stopping you from doing so (as long as it doesn't breach the guidelines).

If genuine critics kept to this then their critiques would be much less likely to be confused with right-wing trolling.

From the SP's point of view, there is no point in getting drawn into slagging matches which derail threads and detract from the site (which is, after all just the sum of its users including many SP people). Much better to respond a single time by saying something like: "If you want to discuss the SP, write an article about them or comment on an existing article that is about them. There has been an ongoing attempt by some indymedia users to drag every thread about certain campaigns into an attack on the internal organisation of the SP. We think that those behind the campaign are more likely to be right wing trolls, rather than genuine critics."

That would seem to me to be a much more effective way of dealing with them than being drawn into the same old squabbles every time.

by SP member Fri Dec 19, 2003 17:58

This thread was started with Fingal CoCo propaganda which MO'B addressed. None of the trolls, even those who imply they are on the left have anything to say on the bin tax issue.

by Festive yawn Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:07

"This kind of "tis - tisn't" nonsense has nothing to do with the bin tax."

Well it is the panto season. Oh no its not!! Oh yes it is!!

by In the spirit of fairness Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:13

"This thread was started with Fingal CoCo propaganda which MO'B addressed. None of the trolls, even those who imply they are on the left have anything to say on the bin tax issue."

I agree with Chekov's post but find it incredulous that an SP member would come in and say hear, hear. SP members particulary the puppies are equally fast in derailing threads (see thread on Dublin city council bin tax rise).
Before going hear, hear - do something to housetrain the puppies.

by Paul - none Fri Dec 19, 2003 19:07 Hartstown

"She may well keep the seat inherited from Joe (radicals used to be dead against this sort of nepotism at one time)"

They still are, as far as I know the SP have the position that all positions shoudl be subject to immediate recall, that is not the way it works under capitalist democracy does that mean the left and radicals shoudl boycott elections? Most on the left would like to see a situation in which vacancies on the council were filled with a by-election, but under existing law that cant be done, so what should the SP do? Let the seat go to FF or nominate an Sp member


" but aprt from Daly that will be the limit for the SP in Fingal and in the state overall, and I am prepared to place a large bet on that. In fact once the workers and youth relaise the mess that you've made of the campaign it is possible that even those seats might not be assured."

I wouldn't share your confidence of SP failure. I live in West Dublin, the SP have massivly grown in respect. I know loads of neighbours and friends who will be voting for the SP next June who never would have previously. I think your bookie might have a good summer!

by Santa Fri Dec 19, 2003 21:12

I'm glad to see the spirit of the holiday season is a live and well on Indymedia.
As has been tradition for many centuries bold boys and girls get a lump of coal in their xmas stocking.
So for Democratic Socialist or DS as he/she is also known by; in Santa's big list you are in the bold column - you're getting a lump of coal.
For the much maligned Stephen Boyd and Kevin McLoughlin your in the good column - you're getting two weeks holidays and the satisfaction of knowing that Santa supports the CWI!
Ho ho ho.......