Bin Tax - Day of Action

by Damn Butter Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:25

No trucks have left since six o'clock this morning. Binmen are talking about joining but there is confusion as to whether their shop steward is SIPTU or not. Cops have stood back so far.

by binthetax - Fingal Campaign Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:26

At the Ballymount depot in South Dublin, the bin workers have refused to get into their trucks, while a big blockade goes on outside.

South Dublin council officials have responded by suspending them for the day.

Blockades continue at depots in all four of the Dublin local authority areas.

In Fingal, the Gardai have been cautioning people under the Public Order Act.

In Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown no names have yet be taken, the Gardai are just standing around and watching.

by Andrew Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:31

I've just come from Grangegorman. The trucks had been moved out but we just blocked them in at the side of the road. The workers in Grangegorman are very sympatheic so they made no serious attempt to move them out. When news came through of Joe being run over they were all disgusted and came over to apologise (not that it was there fault!).

The situation there as of 9.35 was that no trucks had left the depot area and the blockade was still in place.

By mobile we heard two other important bits of news. Dublin south council apperently 'temporaly laid off' two bin workers who refused to blockade this morning. And 10 bin truck drivers have been fired in the Rathmines depot for refusing to pass the blockade. As I was leaving the workers at Grangegorman had recieve news from Rathmines independently of us. They were pretty angry (with management) and likely to walk out if backed by the union.

We also heard from the hospital by mobile. It appears Joe is not severly injured but still not clear how injured he is.

by bins Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:46

Newstalk are reporting that 60 South Dublin bin workers are refusing to man their trucks in solidarity with the bin tax protestors.

The Council are threatening that they won't be paid for the day.

by Joe Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:55

Anti waste charge protesters placed pickets this morning on all seven waste collection depots in Dublin's four local authority areas.

Gardaí and Dublin City Council say they are investigating an incident outside the city council's depot on Collins Avenue in which a protester was hit by a council housing truck. The man was taken to Beaumont Hospital.

A protest at South Dublin County Council's depot in Ballymount has ended but bin collections have not resumed due to a work stoppage by bin men.

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Around 60 bin men refused to drive their trucks to the gate of the depot this morning and were told by management that they would be taken off the payroll. Negotiations between the bin men and the council are continuing.

A protest at Fingal County Council's depot in Swords has ended, and the council says its waste collection services are now continuing as normal.

Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council says 12 of its refuse trucks are blocked at Sandyford depot. The council says 12,500 homes in Blackrock, Booterstown and Mount Merrion are without a service this morning.

The council is the only local authority in Dublin not to have implemented a non-collection policy for householders who have not paid waste charges.

by Mags - WCA Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:01

I have been talking to Joe a couple of times since the Corpo goon effectively attempted to kill him.

He was taken to the Mater and x-rayed, etc. He has no bones broken, but a lot of cuts and bruises and pain - mainly in the legs and lower back. He has been told to rest (can't see that happening!). He is at home now and seems in good enough form.

It is important to stress that the man driving the Corpo pickup was NOT a Bin Man. He works in the Housing Section. After Joe fell off the front of the lorry (after about 30-40 yards, some of it being dragged along the road) the driver went on another 50 yards and stopped. Some activists and bin men ran up to him and he was very abusive and threatening. He left the accident scene (still in the Corpo truck) before the Guards arrived.

The Bin Men in Collins Avenue were great. They were raging mad about what happened. A load of them came out to help Joe and after he had been put in the ambulance they went in and had an immediate meeting, with 3 Union reps present. They voted not to work today. There was a disagreement as to whether they should come out and stand with us on the picket line or just stay in the canteen. About 40 came out to stand with us. They will lose a days pay over this. I am unsure about what the Union 'higher ups' think about this. The workers in Collins Ave are both SIPTU and IMPACT.

We are keeping the picket going but numbers are dropping off as people go to work, to get food, etc. COULD ANYONE WHO IS FREE PLEASE COME TO THE COLLINS AVE DEPOT NOW.

The workers say they will not pass so long as we have people there.

Get any of the Airport buses (or the 16/16A) to Whitehall Church and walk up Collins Ave towards Ballymun. You can't miss the picket, it is opposite the main gate to DCU.

Just to clarify - Joe Mooney is Chair of the East Wall Residents Association and Secretary (+ acting PRO) of the Dublin Campaign Against the Bin Tax.

by . Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:02

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1014/waste.html

by . Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:05

The council have said if dispute not cleared up by lunch time they may have to employ private contractors!

by Chekov - WSM & Anti-bin tax campaign Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:12

I left the blockade just after 10. There were still over 20 people blockading the truck and the workers had served tea to the picket. There were various rumours flying around about industrial action in other depots and the workers were trying to get hard news from shop stewards. There definitely seems to be the mood for action. Not a bin truck was moved in the whole morning between 7 and 10 and the workers were very supportive of the blockade. I'm not sure what the situation is now, but the cops came and went at about 8 and had not been back since. No injunction had been read out.

The photos can do the rest of the talking!

Blocking the trucks outside the depot

Bin workers return inside while protestors remain on guard

Reinforcrements arrive after dropping kids to school

Tea is served to the picket by the binworkers at 9.45

by binned Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:13

What will the anti-bin tax people do when the private service takes over and those men are out of jobs?

I wish to add its very bad news about joe and i sincerely hope he is ok. Although maybe grabbing onto a moving van wasnt a wise move. The 'goon' as you call him may be symptomatic of the frustration of the workers and the fear that they may be losing their jobs. Dont presume because they are 'workers' that they agree with your politics.

by Joe Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:24

Binned you should be ashamed of yourself. While good people are getting jailed and injured you are spending your time trying to undermine the campaign.

Fair enough if you were asking unanswered question, but you are not. Your just asking the same 'spin doctor' crap again and again on thread after thread.

NO company will take over a service that it cannot make a profit on. And if no one is paying a bin charge then no proit can be made. So no bin tax = no privitisation. You know this already!

by Ian Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:26

What would pro-bin tax muppets like yourself do if the service is privatised regardless of protest. You've got to know deep down that all of this is to provide the way for that. And what we say about water and other domestic charges is correct. Your hope is for minimal delay, which will pave the way for increases and other charges.

As for your insincere nonsense about Joe, do us all a favour and save it. I was there, I saw what happened. And I can assure you that he was not symptomatic of the frustration of the workers. Its the other way round. The workers were disgusted. Why do you think they were emboldened and are putting it up to their union leadership?

by Dermo - WSM Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:34 comrade at imapunk dot com

Also was talking to someone on the picket at Sandymount. There is still 16 or so holding
that strong at the moment.

This follows a demo outside the Council offices
in Dun Laoighre last night of about 500 people.
The plan is to shut this one down for the day.
I would appeal to people who've been on the
other depot pickets to post up the latest
news from them. (Rathmines, Davitt Road etc.)

As for Privitisation, that is the inevitable step
if we start paying (AGAIN for the SECOND TIME)
for this service. The only thing that's preventing this from happening
is the fact that there is a mass based non-payment
campaign that is now involved in actions
against the various councils sinister plans for
the withdrawl of the service.

I think that there is definitely rumblings of discontent finally starting to percolate up to
the top in the Unions and that this can only
spell more trouble for the councils. When you
see the pickets being observed and respected
by the workers they know exactly what the plans
are for their jobs and that's why they support this campaign.

Dermo

by Chekov Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:36

At this stage, of the three campaign officers in the city area, two are in prison and one has been hospitalised. Either the steering committee is cursed or the corpo is really trying to crush the campaign. We can't let them get away with this.

by binned Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:38

I know full well that some of the people on those pickets will still be around to fight for the workers but im wondering about all the others.

I have stated before that I dont want privatisation and that public services are not to be run for profit. I want a service controlled by the public/local authorities (not central government) and I see your tactics as isolating the local authorities from the public. Maybe your trying to nudge your political agenda in the way of the local governance that exists and cant see what your doing, I dont know.

It was easy for me to see that eventually private contractors will be brought in and am amazed you couldnt. I was wondering how you will go about removing the private contractors once they are in place? When it comes to removing the private contractors and reinstating the jobs of the binmen youll find me standing beside you but I cant go along with you now because we are already seeing what I predicted would come about from your moves.

by Mags Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:40

Just to make clear that Joe is out of hospital and and fighting (if not exactly fit!). He is doing interviews at present.

by Joe Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:45

I see you simply ignored the point so here it is again

"NO company will take over a service that it cannot make a profit on. And if no one is paying a bin charge then no proit can be made. So no bin tax = no privitisation. You know this already!"

I should add that all the bin workers I've spoken to in the last weeks recognise that a victory for the campaign will end the threat of privitisation for these reasons. So stop pretending to be on their side 'binned', your fulling no one but the D4 mejja who want to be fooled so they don't have to ask akward questions.

by Blanchardstown Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:48

I totally agree with your comments. It's very clear reading this site over the past few weeks what the real political agenda is. Political being the operative word. The sad reality is that those involved in SWP, WSM, SP, etc have no understanding whatsoever about how local authorities work. This perhaps is understandable given their very limited involvement in local or mainstream politics.

Ruth Coppinger recently suggested on radio that unelected reps were making decisions in the Council Chamber of Fingal County Council. Remind me - when exactly did Ruth Coppinger face the electorate? Oh that would be never. If these protests continue there will be privatisation and it's much closer than any of these activists understand. In the end of the day what none of these militant parties get is that local authorities simply don't need the grief - ask any local councillor if you really care. If these groups had any close contact with local authorities they would have a mature read on this and act strategically.

by Anonymous Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:49

I assume the guy who ran Joe over in his van will be prosecuted by the gardai??

by Degenerate Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:53

"When it comes to removing the private contractors and reinstating the jobs of the binmen youll find me standing beside you but I cant go along with you now because we are already seeing what I predicted would come about from your moves. "

Binned you remind me of Iago in Othello.
So pretend I haven't heard before, how would you have conducted this campaign.
Would your response have been to go to your local council office, paid the flat rate tax and gone on your way. Then let me see, you would do the same when it comes to water.
Oh and when the councils have full payment and go 'now its time to sell on these services', it is then that you would have looked for an anti-privatisation campaign. Is it that simple?

by Anon Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:09

I've seen a report on this site showing the bin tag receipts for Fingal are up to more than half a million. That's doubled since the previous month. What does this say about the real strength of the campaign in Fingal?

by binned Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:10

Im getting a little tired of people putting words in my mouth and telling me what I do and dont know when its clear that most of you dont understand the situation clearly. I dont need to feel like im part of some clique to have conviction in my beliefs. I have stood up on my own here against what I see as the hypocrisy and lies of the anti-bin tax campaign. I have used the truth and real facts to state my case consistently which cannot be said for the anti-bin tax lobby. Im not trying to fool anyone and im not trying to insult or debase anyone. I am trying to garner some real debate on the topic instead of half-arsed jingoisms.

I said that the actions will bring in the private contractors. What are the council now saying???? So now that youve messed up that part we can leave the issue of waste alone for a moment and maybe work together on getting their jobs back (if it happens which it looks like it will)

by Fingal County Council Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:14

FINGAL COUNTY COUNCIL SUCCESSFUL COLLECTION OF 99% OF BINS

Fingal County Council has completed analysis of their bin collection routes over the past week and is pleased to report that as of last Friday 99% of bins in the Fingal area are now being collected.

800 homes in the North Mulhuddart Electoral area remain without a collection. These include the following estates Drumheath, Ladyswell, Wellview, Parslickstown and parts of Whitestown (Dublin 15).

Fingal County Council successfully completed their bin collection routes in Dublin 15 including Fortlawn, Huntstown Wood, Huntstown Lawn, Sheepmoor and parts of Whitestown over the past week.

According to Gilbert Power, Director of Services for Environment, Fingal County Council, this refutes suggestions by the Socialist Party that the Council were abandoning areas in Dublin 15.

“Since our policy of non collection began on 10th September bin tagging has consistently risen to near full compliance in the Fingal area. We have been determined to restore services, particularly in Dublin 15 since protesters began obstructing our work. We have continued to return to estates again and again to ensure collection. We are pleased that the areas listed above, who were without a collection for several weeks, have now had their backlog cleared”.
Fingal County Council continues to offer a service at the Coolmine Industrial Estate where residents can dispose of four rubbish sacks for a €5.00 bin tag.

According to Gilbert Power the revenue generated from the significant increase in bin tag sales will be ploughed back into further recycling facilities. “While the Dublin 15 area is relatively well serviced in terms of green routes we plan to significantly expand our facilities there early in 2004. These plans include the development of a large recycling facility in the Coolmine Industrial Estate. We have received some funding for the Coolmine project from the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the increased revenue from the sale of bin tags will meet the balance of costs.”

The Council also intends to increase the number of Bring Banks in the Dublin 15 area as well as adding to green routes in the North of the County before Christmas. All of the Dublin 15 area are serviced by Green Routes which should mean that residents who are not entitled to bin tags free of charge will only put their bin out every fortnight, according to Gilbert Power residents should be recycling tins, plastic, bottles and paper. “It was interesting to note in some recent photographs of rubbish illegally dumped in a green area in Mulhuddart that much of the material could actually have been recycled. There is no need to dump this rubbish illegally as the green bins are provided free of charge to residents and bottles and plastics can be taken to Bring Banks and our facility at Dunsink”.

Total income from the sale of bin tags in Fingal in the month of September was €568,000 as compared to €292,000 in the previous month. According to Gilbert Power this confirms the statistics issued previously by Fingal County Council. “ We know from the drop in the levels of calls to our Environment Department that the overwhelming majority of our residents are now tagging their bins. I would like to thank the public for their patience during service interruption and restate that we will continue to endeavour to help the final 800 homes affected by the actions of a small number of protesters”.

by Joe Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:20

Oh come on binned the 'facts' you have chosen are opinions, ones you can't defend when they are contested. You might see yourself as a heroic knight in shining armour battling the evil forces of the left. The rest of us see you as a nasty bit of slime putting the boot in on behalf of the council. And telling us that we don't have your vast knowledge only makes you arrogant slime.

And I see you still are simply ignoring the point so here it is again

"NO company will take over a service that it cannot make a profit on. And if no one is paying a bin charge then no profit can be made. So no bin tax = no privitisation. You know this already!"

by Sick of trolls Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:22

You are just a government stooge, just like the other trolls who have been posting here. You don't contribute anything positive to the debate.
Go away.

by No 6 Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:30

"You are just a government stooge, just like the other trolls who have been posting here. You don't contribute anything positive to the debate.
Go away."


translation, I don't like people who's politics and opinion on this disagree with my own, and only want people who agree with my viewpoint, and worldview.

If you feel that strongly go post on the socialist party message board, where no one disagrees with anyone.

Healthy debate is good.

by Dublin Campaign Against the Bin Tax - DCABT Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:30 HOTLINE: 087 2837989

Campaign Press Release: Activist injured by City Council Truck

October 14th 2003 – NO EMBARGO

The Dublin Campaign Against the Bin Tax has condemned the disgraceful and dangerous incident at the Collins Ave City Council depot this morning when a Campaign officer was dragged 30-40 yards along a busy road by a Council truck.

Activist Joe Mooney was in the company of 40 other bin charges activists protesting at the depot when a man in a City Council truck came out of the depot at speed and blaring the horn. He speeded up when he saw the activists. Three were pushed across the width of Collins Avenue by the truck, which also went through red lights. Two managed to get away from the truck but Mr Mooney was held on the bonnet for almost 40 yards on a busy road, for part of the way he was dragged along the road. The driver eventually slowed down and Joe fell off into the road.

He was taken to the Mater hospital for x-rays and tests, etc. He has no bones broken, but a lot of cuts and bruises and pain - mainly in the legs and lower back. He has been told to rest and is now at his home.

Joe Mooney is Chair of the East Wall Residents Association and Secretary of the Dublin Campaign Against the Bin Tax.

He said
"15 activists have been jailed in this campaign but I never imagined I, or anyone else, was in physical danger. We have always followed a policy of peaceful civil disobedience and community action. The City Council have a lot to explain here. Their employee drove at a group of people – we could have been looking at number of deaths or serious injuries."

A number of bin workers rushed to the scene and were very angry. The driver involved is a City Council employee, but is NOT a Bin Man. The workers immediately went into a meeting to discuss their response. They voted not to work today, meaning they will lose a days pay. About 40 workers came out to the picket line to stand in solidarity with the activists and residents came out to stand with us.

The Dublin Campaign Against the Bin Tax thanks the Bin Workers for their support and solidarity in this campaign.

Gardai report that the driver of the truck has been questioned and released without charge, a file to be sent to the DPP.

[ENDS]

by binned Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:39

I didnt ignore that point but it has been argued at length elsewhere. The authorities will send in private contractors when they cant handle the service themselves. Case in point is the recent developments to call in private contractors. Simple facts that YOU seem to ignore.

The other facts im talking about include anti-bin tax people using out of date EU directives. I pointed out the fact they were out of date and gave links to the updated versions. Nothing arrogant about that is there. I also ponted out facts that I searched for myself and that are in the public domain including council budgets and OECD tax comparrisons. Nothing arrogant about that. Its all public domain information that either you choose to ignore or dont bother finding out.

It should be obvious im not a troll. The issue is more complex than you seem to let on and it needs open debate. You can keep insulting me all you like but it wont bother me.

by myself Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:53

"NO company will take over a service that it cannot make a profit on. And if no one is paying a bin charge then no profit can be made. So no bin tax = no privitisation. You know this already!"

That just doesn't stand up. Look at the local authorities that have privatised, it's mainly due to the hassle factor. Lack of revenue wasn't a factor in these instances as with the abolition of the waiver and no PR considerations enable private contractors to be far more ruthless than the council

by Campaigner Tue Oct 14, 2003 13:59

When I arrived there about 7:10am this morning there were already about 15 people picketing the depot. Within a few minutes numbers built up to about 20 to 30 people.

Within about half an hour 2 or 3 Garda arrived, but nothing much happened. A short while later there was a token gesture made to drive one of the bin lorries out, but it was more a formality than anything else. There the binmen remained inside and the word was they would not pass the picket.

By 8am numbers had declined a bit, but built back up again to 20 or 30 by 9am and remained that way for much of the early morning. There was one very determined older man of about 70 years, who despite needing the assistance of his walking stick, joined the picket and continued walking in the revolving picket for a very long time.

It was also announced by the campaign that collections will be organised at the weekend in pubs and the like to collect money to help pay those workers who are being deducted pay today.

It was noticed that one of the Garda present was not wearing any number identification.

Finally, last night (at 7pm+) outside the council offices in Dun Laoghaire there was an very good turnout of between 300 and 400 people to demonstrate about the Bin Tax. The crowd were pretty angry and defiant and the councillors couldn't but have heard inside at their estimates meeting.

Again it was noted that in Bray, when a bag system is in operation, the bags are 5.4 euros each, but they have already got smaller. Also the original waiver was 20 free bags, but this is already down to 10. In a very short time, it is likely this will disappear altogther.

by Campaigner Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:01

It's just been reported that after a large meeting inside the depot, the bin workers appeared to be have told they can go home and now most of them have left the depot.

by Joe Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:06

Oh boy, there are none so blind as those that will not see.

Lets try another approach, I happen to have on my desk a feasability study conducted for MAIDUP PRIVATE BINS for privitisation in Dublin city.

----
With bin tax implemented

Income
200 euro per houehold, 115,000 households

Total income = 23 million per annum (expected to rise to 90 million over 10 years*).

Costs
Totals costs (wages, disposal, truck leasing) = 15 million

Profit/Loss
Expected profits = 8 million (rising to 75 million)

---
Without bin tax implemented

Income
0 Euro per household, 115,000 households

Total income = 0 (expected to stay at 0 after 10 years)

Costs
Totals costs (wages, disposal, truck leasing) = 15 million

Profit/loss
Expected loss = 15 million

---

Conclusion
Unless the bin tax is imposed we can't make any money out of this so don't make ANY offers until council has imposed the tax.

----
But of course you know this already!

by Chekov Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:13

Blockade still holding. Workers have gone to lunch and no trucks have moved so far.

by Steelie Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:24

That the collins' avenue driver who ploughed into the protestors was FF TD GV Wright on his way home from the early houses in disguise as a council worker?

by Ciaran Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:31

Anyone got any answers to this :
What time will people leave the picket at?
Is there any more demo's this week?

Good to hear Joe is not hurt too badly.

Thanks in advance,
Ciaran

by Joe Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:33

Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Council says 12,500 homes in its area are without a waste collection service because of pickets by anti waste charge protesters at the Sandyford depot.

....

Protesters picketed all seven depots in Dublin's local authority areas this morning.

...

Negotiations are underway between unions and management at South Dublin County Council's depot in Ballymount, after bin men refused to drive their lorries due to the protest.

The council is warning that up to 15,000 households in the county may not have their waste collected today.

by Yossarian Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:42

Binned, your arguements are a pile of crap. The councils state that they will have to bring in private contractors to collect the rubbish and you say that's how the anti bin tax protests have brought on privatisation. Complete and utter shite.
First of all, what makes you think that anyone will let the private contractors take their trucks out in the middle of this dispute?
Secondly, who will pay them, they're not a charity, they exist to make a profit off the waste that we have little choice in chucking.
The fact of the matter is no bin tax, no privatisation. Of course, you may beg to differ smart ass but show us an example where the bins are collected by a private company where a bin tax isn't in place?
On your smug assertion that the EU regulation was "out of date".. very often these regulations are amended by new regulations, however they usually don't change the thrust of what was in the original, merely adding extra bits. Of course you probably know that and decided not to show exactly what was incorrect in the statement (except for the number of the regulation, which as I've just described doesn't necessarily mean that there is any change in the point that was being made.
It seems quite obvious at this stage that you are paid to spread lies. Fuck off.

by CoCo Nuts Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:47 D13

if the above data from FCC relates to last week, then there are more holes in your argument than maggots on the black bags not collected in Moyclare Baldoyle last Monday (6th) (tagged + untagged)

the bins uncollected in Grange Park last Tuesday (7th) or the bins that flew into the back of the stopped and moving lorry in Seagrange & Park Vale,(7th/14th)

*Gilbert* this 99% is as hollow a claim that chairman Dolphin made on Sept 11/12th he then claimed 99% compliance , take a compliant area like Bayside, D13 July figures bins presented ~60%
ratio tagged to untagged 4:1. October presentation figure ~10% ratio tagged to untagged 4:1 (NO RATIO CHANGE) - loss of revenue all over Fingal is what I see.

FCC lies again. CoCo Nuts/

by Chekov Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:47

Binned "said that the actions will bring in the private contractors. What are the council now saying????"

Well the fact that you are saying the very same as the council and have been for a while does certainly suggest something, Binned. Especially when the council have been spamming every bin-tax thread on indymedia with their dishonest propaganda for the last few weeks. We know that the council are targetting indymedia. We know that you are repeating their arguments precisely and ignoring the people who point out the bizzare logic of your 'anti-privatisation, pro-bin-tax' line. Draw your own conclusions.

The notion that private contractors have so much over-capacity that they could replace the council service is laughable. The council are scare-mongering about privatisation being caused by the campaign, as they have been for the last 3 years. So are you. There is no logic to your position as Joe and many, many others have pointed out at length. If you don't work for the council you should send in an invoice as I'm sure they'd be happy to pay for your weasel words.

by Ciaran Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:52

I live in Hartstown ,Clonsilla and there was no collection in my estate for 4 weeks.
So the council are lying again i see.

Ciaran

by amo - Finglas Anti Bin Charges Campaign Tue Oct 14, 2003 14:55

The picket at Collins Avenue is continuing. Bin men are still out with protesters. If anyone is available to go and join the picket, protesters there would be very grateful, some are having to head off to collect kids from school etc.

As far as i'm aware, maniac from this morning was taken to Ballymun garda station - not sure of outcome. Gardai certainly weren't in any hurry to taken statements from witnesses, although they did find time to take the names of protesters.

by conor (wsm personal and Dun Loaghaire campaign agin in a per Tue Oct 14, 2003 15:09

The four Dublin councils had many options in trying to collect unpaid bin money. What they all "independently" plumped for was to abdicate political responsibility to the county managers.
Don't forget that !!!!
These four unelected engineers began to implement a brutal and, in my view, dangerous strategy of leaving bins of non payers un collected.

Today saw the full fruition of their plan -

62,000 uncollected bins.

They have achieved non collection but maybe just a little bit more non collection then they hoped for !

As I speak workers and union representitives in Ballymount are about to meet with council officials. All 60 workers were described on News talk at being incensed that the leader of SIPTU Jack o Conor as the union still won't back them in implemented its long standing anti charges policy.

Workers in Sandyford, Grange Gorman and Collins Avenue in SIPTU AND IMPACT are also very sympathetic. Lets keep up the pressure. The councils have completely over played their pretty thin hand and ordinary people are begining to react in anger and disgust at the jailing and non collection strategy.

There were 3-400 at the Council offices in Dun Laoghaire last night - biggest demo there of my 18 years or so in politics.

The campaign in Dun Loaghaire will continue with the Sandyford picket tomorrow. Get down there - its just behind Microsoft in the Sandyford industrial estate. This is the time to hit them and hit them hard.

Non collection can be defeated.

Lets get out there and take the pressure off Fingal to what ever extent we can

I would appeal to the other areas to also try and get effective pickets together again for tomorrow.

We could even beat this thing

Conor

by conor (wsm personal) Tue Oct 14, 2003 15:22

Just talking to Pat C and that Blockade will continue till three thirty - they're low on numbers so help very much appreciated - take a half day !

mean time in answer to question posed above - dun Laoghaire/Sandyford picket IS on again tomorrow (Sandyford industrial estate behind microsoft - 6.30 am on - and remmebr later people very welcome - so come down 9 or 10 or when ever)
and I would say most of the Dublin ones will also go ahead again

If they want non collection lets give em non colection -

ALL BINS OR NO BINS

OK I'm off

Conor

by Anonymous Tue Oct 14, 2003 15:27

I do not agree with your point of view Binned, but I welcome your comments to at least give "some" semblance of a balanced debate on this subject. (Do I find myself in agreement with No. 6 on this!!)

To the people who have hurdled abuse at him for his point of view - you do him & your own argument an injustice by stooping to such a level.

by Joe Tue Oct 14, 2003 15:30

He is not here to debate, he is here to spin and spin again. Note the complete failure to address the argument above, just to continue to assert his original point.

He's been doing this for week and people have patiently debated him over that time. Now they are fed up and have had enough.

by Degenerate Tue Oct 14, 2003 15:33

Can you please elucidate your strategy.

Is it to pay the flat rate bin tax? Is it then to pay the flat rate water charges? Is it then to pay whatever other services charges they dream up at a flat rate ?

And then if they go to privatise any of these services it is only then that we should get active.

Just so that I can understand you?

by P1 - None Tue Oct 14, 2003 15:50

Can someone please give exact address/location of the Sandyford depot?
Thanks.

by Mags Tue Oct 14, 2003 16:01

The Bin Workers in Collins Avenue have advised us that we should continue the picket into the evening as the lorries from that depot collect the commercial waste from Northside businesses during the night.

There are now about 8 protestors at Collins Avenue. Many people have had to leave.

CAN ANYONE WHO IS FREE PLEASE COME TO COLLINS AVENUE DEPOT FOR ABOUT 4.30PM.

If people could leave work a bit early and pop out for an hour or two it would be great.

(Get any of the Airport buses (or the 16/16A) to Whitehall Church and walk up Collins Ave towards Ballymun. You can't miss the picket, it is opposite the main gate of DCU.)

DAY 2 PICKET:
The picket on Collins Avenue will also be held tomorrow, Wednesday 15th October. Please assemble outside the depot at 6AM.

Please spread the word.

by Non plussed Tue Oct 14, 2003 16:11

"We know that the council are targetting indymedia"
Who is this Chekov Clown?
Do you think the Council is staffed by 'black Ops' agents.

Get real!

btw:
Binned is IMHO correct regarding the privatisation of bin collections.
Once privatised the private operators will just collect from those who pay. Nuff Said.

by Chekov the clown Tue Oct 14, 2003 16:14

I wonder who has posted their press release a total of 5 times to the newswire in the last couple of days?

by Pablo - -- Tue Oct 14, 2003 17:16

The only way the bins can be successfully privatised is through the defeat of the campaign. Privatisation is already planned. Look at the example of Drogheda where direct action was abandoned, privatisation followed. Had the Drogheda campaign continued with the strategy of direct action the council could not have privatised the collection. Look at every other place where charges were introduced, privatisation followed. Binned is a troll and is probably just some council bureaucrat.

by Paul - Finglas Anti Bin Tax Campaign Tue Oct 14, 2003 17:27

There was quite a good turnout (150-200) for the demo today at the GPO. There were people there from Finglas (including many relatives of the people imprisoned.), Fingal, Cabra, Santry, Ballyfermot and The Liberties that I knew to see. The crowd was bouyed by the news from the blockades at the different depots. Mick Barry did a good job as MC for the demo. Michael O'Brien addressed the crowd to inform people of GV Wrights apperance at the Fingal County Council meeting and the reception he received.
OK, before people start shouting conspiracy, only SP speakers, there was an open mike policy but nobody else availed. The demo moved off the path and onto O'Connell Street where traffic was brought to a stand still for over twenty minutes.
So far it would seem that the day of action is going well. Widespread non-collection on our terms not the council''s, a mini-RTS and an open mike.
Of course the only people not acting at this stage is the Union leadership. Having motions passed against service charges and calling one march is not a campaign. The one obvious thing today, is that it is was clear that workers were looking to the union leadership to explain what they mean when they say they are opposed to service charges. So far this has been met with a deafening silence. If they listened to their members this fight would be seriously advanced.

by Activist - City Anti-Bin Tax Campaign Tue Oct 14, 2003 17:41

Press Release - Cabra & Stoneybatter Anti-bin tax Campaign
After Today's success, Grangegorman picket to run again tomorrow.

Today's blockade on the Grangegorman depot succeeded in completely halting bin collection from the depot. The picket lasted from 6 am until 3.30 pm and during that time, not a single truck left the depot. After an initial attempt to start one truck, the workers refused to cross the picket line in solidarity with the campaign. We thank the workforce for their display of solidarity with residents being forced to pay this unjust tax.

Bin workers and residents united to express their disgust at the actions of a council employee (not a bin worker) who attempted to speed his van through the Collins Avenue blockade, injuring an activist in the process. The Cabra & Stoneybatter campaigns send their best wishes to Joe Mooney, the injured activist, and hope that he recovers swiftly.

The council have already jailed 15 activists. Two of the three officers of the city campaign are currently in prison and the third, Mr Mooney, is now recuperating at home after his hospitalisation. Yet, despite the attempts to repress the campaign, we are stronger than ever. Today we managed to stop all bin collection in the city; tomorrow we will attempt to do the same. We will not call off our protests until the council agree to collect ALL bins.

We are calling on all supporters of the campaign to assemble at Grangegorman depot from 6 am tomorrow. This blockade will again run all day so even if you can't make it in the morning, we always need people to relieve the protestors on the blockade. For further information contact Dermot Sreenan at 087-6277606

by Mags Tue Oct 14, 2003 18:04

It has been decided not to picket the Collins Ave depot this evening (Tuesday). Unless all 4 city depots can be blocked for the nighttime business collections it is pointless to picket just one, management will just divert trucks from the others.

Collins Avenue depot will be picketed tomorrow (Wednesday) from 6am. If people cannot make it at 6am (please try) come at a later point. The aim is disrupt the exit of trucks for as long as possible.

Congrats to all areas today, we did great. Best wishes and get well soon to Joe Mooney, Campaign Secretary.

by Anonymous Tue Oct 14, 2003 19:02

.

by country mouse Tue Oct 14, 2003 19:16

I heard on RTE (5/7 Live) that the Fingal depot blockade only lasted for an hour, and then the trucks were able to resume collection.

Is there nay truth to this, or is it simply more council spin, being faciliated by RTE, or are the Fingal activists just going continue to blockade them in the communities?

Second question, and on a bit of a tangent. Is it true that the Ringaskiddy Glass Recycling Plant was the only Glass recycling plant in Ireland (maybe its just Dublin) and if so, then where the hell are all the bottles from the bottle banks going??

by Campaigner Tue Oct 14, 2003 19:21

See map for directions to the Sandyford Depot which is on Bracken Road

The 75 bus to/from Dun Laoghaire goes along the upper kilmacud road. Before 9am I think it goes up into the industrial estate and does a bit of a small loop.

Bus times on www.dublinbus.ie site

Directions to Sandyford Depot on Bracken Road

by Janus Tue Oct 14, 2003 19:33

The Ringsend Glass Recycling facility was indeed the only one in the state, as to where those bottles go, I haven't a notion.

by Mags Tue Oct 14, 2003 19:48

There was a report in the papers a while back that some bottles go (by road) to a place in Fermanagh where they are recycled. Most go to England though. This State has NO facility for recycling glass. It is a sick joke.

Recent research shows that ground glass can be used in construction of road surfacing. You'd think there would be plenty of openings for that here.

by binned Tue Oct 14, 2003 19:50

i already told you that I am a student for peats sake, not working for the council, not a troll, not a government spy, I dont work for the CIA, FBI or whatever organisation any paranoid fantasist can come up with. The prediction of calls for private company intervention could be seen by anyone with half an eye open to the wider picture. You seemed to be the only one here that displayed any appreciation for the complexities of the background issues and where this taxation plan may have developed from but I felt you dropped any historical hindsight into the issue to force through your rigid political agenda. I have agreed with many things you have said in the past but not on this issue. I welcomed your considered debate amidst snipes from people like Joe (there seems to be a lot of Joes floating about) but quit the troll stuff please.

A private company will have greater reaching legal powers to persue payment and their actions will be less transparent than that undertaken by any local authority. It will also further remove the ability for control over pricing structures that should be under the supervision of elected representatives. Thats what I fear from privatisation and thats what I said would come about by this political posturing by SP, SWP, SF and whoever else is throwing their hat at this single issue.

As I said before I would like greater co-operation between the people and their local governments. Its an area undeveloped in Ireland with many not knowing who or what their local representatives are. This 'campaign' has put further pressure on the local authorities on top of the pressures coming from central government - so i cant see any end to your actions other than private contractors being called in. I wont make apologies if that doesnt fit in with your neat jingoist agenda.

by binned Tue Oct 14, 2003 19:58

Not sure of the exact percentage but a large portion of new road developments in ireland are using recycled glass that has been re-ground to compounds similar to sand. we export the rest. The, as you so correctly called, joke of a waste and recycling infrastructure is directly linked to the small amount of tax revenue local authorities recieve for that prescribed function. infrastructure costs money. but if a private company sees any opportunity to capitalise on those kind of markets they will be more than happy to collect our waste to recycle and then sell off to other sectors of industry. Do you see where I am going with this.

by country mouse Tue Oct 14, 2003 20:05

also, woukld those leading the 'protests will lead to privatisation' crusade care to answer this.

why have all privatisations of the refuse services, including my own, only happened AFTER the introduction of collection charges?

yet, there was no privatisation of the bin services BEFORE the charges were intoduced. There was no privatisation of water after the water charges campaign was successful, although I'm sure those like binned and co would have been repeating the same mantra back then, if indymedia were around.

Yet, say in a worst case scenario, the campaign wins and the govt/local authorities try to implement privatisation of the waste services in Dublin. It will be those who are involved with this campiagn who will be supporting the workers fighting to save their jobs. The workers have shown solidarity with the bin tax protests, the bin tax protesters will show solidarity with the bin workers. But I guess this concept of solidarity is alien to those like binned, who seem to believe that only descisions made from on high have any authority, and that community campaigns are to be treated with contempt (can't have the peons thinkng for themselves now can we?)

by binned Tue Oct 14, 2003 20:10

do you know about the process of local/regional funding from central government?

by Mags Tue Oct 14, 2003 20:16

Binned, you are begining to grate a wee bit. Could be because I got 4 hours sleep last night and then battered around the road by a truck. But I digress, you'd probably be annoying anyway.

I was under the impression that the councils were moaning on about it being unprofitable to collect waste (including recycleables). So that is the costly bit. Move it to a factory and grind it up and put in the road filling, are we expected to pay for that too? Maybe we'd get a dividend from the councils or a rebate to motorists from their Road Tax. No, I thought not.

Collecting Glass = Donated free by public
Council sells it to recycling company = council makes money
Recycling company sell on to road building company = makes money
Road building company charge Council (i.e. taxpayers) vast amounts for building road = Costly for council

But you seem to believe that the consumer or, rather 'taxpayer', should pay a couple of times in this process with the private companies gaining at almost all points.

I don't know anything about who deals with primary glass processing in Dublin. However I do know about Westmeath Co. Council. My brother worked for them on a re-cycling project. Everyone on the project was on a CE scheme, so the council was not paying for his work, the taxpayer was paying directly. The council sent a lorry around the pubs once a week to collect glass. All the rest came from the bring centres. All it cost the Co. Council was the price of the diesel and a clapped out truck.

Anyway, I'm off to have lunch and then a meeting. Bye folks. See some of you at 6am.

by Fifth Column Tue Oct 14, 2003 20:24

Sinn Fein TDs demanded a debate on the Bin Charges in Leinster House today, with the party's Environment spokesperson Deputy Morgan calling for the imprisonment of Government TDs.

The request for a debate, backed as well by Independent TD Tony Gregory, was refused by former Fianna Fail TD Rory O'Hanlon as the Ceann Comhairle


Mr. Morgan: I seek the adjournment of the Dáil under Standing Order 31 to debate the following urgent matter, namely, the continued policy of imprisoning citizens for their passive and reasonable protests against the unjust bin tax; the necessity for the immediate release of the 15 protesters currently in prison and the need to imprison those responsible for smashing community employment schemes, wrecking FÁS jobs and destroying essential home help services while presiding over an inequitable tax system that allows 7% of the top earners of this State skive off without paying a cent in tax.

Mr. Crowe: I seek the adjournment of the Dáil under Standing Order 31 to debate the following urgent matter, namely, the serious and dangerous escalation of the bin tax protest, which today left one man injured at a picket line on Collins Avenue; the effective lockout of bin workers by management at Ballymount depot; the obstruction of all bin collections across Dublin city and county; the need to have the different local authorities step back from the path they have adopted, which has resulted in the imprisonment of 15 people for peaceful protest; and for the councils to collect all bins in the Dublin region to avoid environmental and health problems.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh: I seek the adjournment of the Dáil under Standing Order 31 to debate the following urgent matter, namely, the incarceration yesterday of more people for protesting peacefully against the double tax on waste removal. Chrissy Heffernan, Karen Heffernan and Brid Smith have joined 12 others in prison while another anti-bin tax protester was injured by a truck this morning. This escalating situation demands not only that the Government reconsider its policy but that the Dáil should have the opportunity to debate the need for the Minister to direct Dublin City Council officials to withdraw their order for the non-collection of bins from non-compliant households and to begin discussions with councils, trade unions and community representatives to prevent further escalation of this crisis.

by Binned Tue Oct 14, 2003 20:26

Because, as I said before, the only other explanation that I can think of for your succession of conradictory posts and your apparent devotion to the cause of the bin tax is some kind of dementia, mixed with a dash of mania. Although your writing style does occasionally indicate some possibility of mental illness, overall I think that your prose is too clear to indicate anything serious, so I think the balance of probability is on the side of you being a council employee. If you want to prove me wrong, feel free to let us know who you are. I know that you said that you were a student, but in this context that evidence has precisely zero value.

A final point is that you consistently come out with sweeping, utterly-unsubstantiated statements which are not characteristic of somebody accustomed to writing academic papers:

"A private company will have greater reaching legal powers to persue payment"

Really? Greater powers than high court injunctions? pray tell, what are these powers?

by country mouse Tue Oct 14, 2003 20:26

but i'd imagine it goes something like this:

Govt cut allowances to local govt. Local govt say 'oh no' we need money. Some mad bastard suggests placing a higher tax on business in the area. He is scorned, and some bright spark comes up with the idea, i know, lets levy a double tax on PAYE workers. Fanatastic. Then once charge is implemented, a descisiion is taken to 'streamliine' services - and in comes mr private company and takles over, hiking up charges, with an ultimate goal of removing all waivers. (see Sligo - Sligo also showed us the that when council descisions don't go the way of the powers that be, democracy is cancelled until they get their way)

Doesn't this suggest to you that something is fundamentally WRONG with the system?

As for 'more co-operation between communities and local govt'. The same people in local govt are the same people in the Dail, only mini-me versions. I know most of my local reps, and I have to say, not to put too fine a point on it, they are all cunts - except one guy, who is more just funny. I don't see why people should 'co-operate' any more with these career politicians than they should with the career politicians in the Dail. They are all part of the same system, a system balanced in favour of the rich and 'vested interets' against the poor and less well off. Not much has changed since 1913.

by binned Tue Oct 14, 2003 20:43

because some just posted under my name probably to confuse the issue.

Mags I was in the middle of writing a simplified version of my view on this. It was trying to be funny and a little patronising - if youd like to hear it i can email it to you. Youd probably hate it ;)

by ron - sp Tue Oct 14, 2003 22:39 limerick

As and from yesterday, Limerick County Council has ceased to provide a bin collection service. The service has been privatised.

12/13 years ago Limerick Co Co introduced a charge of 25p per bag/tag, which steadily increased: In 1994, when the charge was 35p, private operators moved in charging 30p. 6 years ago Limerick Co Co introduced wheelie bins, and a flat annual charge (I think it was £80). Over the next year or so those private operators left in the market also introduced wheelie bins, at a rate £10 below the council. Charges have continued to increase as the Council finds it more and more difficult to make its books balance, since they don't have the courage to ask the government for the money they need to run their services.

December 2002, Limerick County Councillors voted against privatising its bin collection services.
March 2003, Limerick county Manager uses his "executive powers" to privatise the service. The reason given: to continue the service is no longer economically viable, because of the sharp decline in the Council's share of the market, and because of the increasing isolation of its customers.

You see, as soon as a direct charge is introduced for a service, opportunities are opened up for private enterprise. The main way a private operator can undercut a Local Authority's price is by paying its workers less, employing them on fixed term contracts, etc. Since the privatisation of the bin collection service in Limerick City in 2000 and County Clare in 2001, the only thing keeping the bin charges at their current levels (ˆ360 per year) has been the presence in the market of Limerick Co Co. Now that they are gone there is no 'guide price' for the private operator to use, so charges will most likely escalate after 2004.


BTW, bin workers in Limerick Co Co were to strike and picket council offices from monday, but SIPTU agreed to a Labour Court request that they call off the protests until it delivers its recommendations on the severance/redeployment package later this week.
Neither SIPTU nor any other union representing public sector workers seems to have any sort of strategy capable of actually saving public sector jobs and preventing privatisations. They all seem to be content with negotiating the "best possible" redundancy/redeployment deal.

by Chekov Wed Oct 15, 2003 00:09

It was by me, in my weariness after weeks of debating with a person called 'binned' I filled in the wrong author name.

In any case, binned, don't allow this to bring you back - you ran out of new material somewhere around your second comment.

by Careful driver Wed Oct 15, 2003 00:17

Binned said:-
"ok I have to stop posting now"
"because some just posted under my name probably to confuse the issue."

Seeing as how your other troll friends can use other peoples' names, I suppose it's only fair that they get impersonated too.

....or are you beginning to realise that your precious bin tax is about to be defeated and you are just conceding defeat?

by binned Wed Oct 15, 2003 00:27

Ill come back to ask why nobody else thinks postings like ...

'The reason given: to continue the service is no longer economically viable, because of the sharp decline in the Council's share of the market, and because of the increasing isolation of its customers.'

are complete nonsense. Councils share of what market?????

oops maybe i should leave you to your safe consensus club where you can all get along patting each others backs and congratulate each other on having the same opinions.

by Degenerate Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:09

How about answering the questions that I have asked you twice. They don't seem that difficult.

by Ray Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:13

After bin charges were introduced in Limerick the council allowed private operators to compete with the council. This creates a MARKET. The council has now abandoned bin collection because more people were using the private service, in other words, the council was losing market share.
In every thread were you've appeared, people have asked you why it is that services are only privatised _after_ charges have been introduced. You have never even attempted to answer the question. So what are you, stupid or malicious?

by Dairius McGann - Me Fein Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:19

I am binned, binned is me, I'm as Seanin as can be, I'm a little muppet who has nothing to do, but troll on here and get to you.

by Dairius McGann - HAHAHA Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:31

Not so clever now we know who you are you little muppet? Dairius McGann from Drogheda, take a bow!

by Paul Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:52

I got to Collins after six. There was about 15 people there. It seemed that it was attracting the most media attention after the televised incident yesterday. The guards arrived at about 7. Hendrick the council official read out the injunction, not long after. The guards still had not intervened by the time I left at around 8.45.

Any updates from around the other depots?

Just had time to listen to John Fitzgerald's awful effort on Morning Ireland this morning. He confirmed that refuse collections were being blocked and repeated the tactic used by Fingal council, that magic figure of, 99% of people wanted the new system. He claimed that only a small group were holding the city to ransom and that it was only a small group of hard core activists. (John - you should really come out and see some of the blockades, before making inflammatory statements.) He once again repeated the slander that has appeared in every council affadavit to date, that protestors were involved in acts of provocation against council employees (Once again John you should get down to the depots and listen to the workers - as should Jack O'Connor).

by not a hypocrit - my own Wed Oct 15, 2003 14:53

I am tired to my back teeth listening to this for the longest time, everyday of the week i hear people moaning we are being ripped off and saying something should be done about this.
Well I am doing something now because when i say we are being ripped off i mean it me and my boyfriend pay on a basic week €700 in PAYE TAX then we pay tax on our shopping petrol household bills and if this bintax comes in and is privatised i will be paying TAX on my bintax bill. Bertie calls me a sponger, personally i think he meant sponges he is wiping the floor with us. I think it is about time people stopped being such hypocrits went to a meeting to see why we are so adamant to campaign don't judge till you know what you are judging you won't see why we are so adamant to get out of bed a 6am (to stand in the cold)in the SO CALLED NEWS REPORTS remember who owns them. Democracy not dictatorship

by Pablo - -- Wed Oct 15, 2003 14:55

Why would he do that? He knows he's lying, he'll just be confirming what he already knows!
By the way, did you see the woman on the 9 o clock News last night they were trying to portray as "an ordinary householder" who was "angry at the protesters"? That was the poshest ordinary householder I ever saw.

by micko Wed Oct 15, 2003 16:18 mickojjj at yahoo dot co dot uk

Has anyone any idea the identity of the bin truck driver who dragged Joe Mooney along the road?

by love the rubbish Wed Oct 15, 2003 16:26

it all looking a bit peachy here. Both sides with interlocked horns. One side throwing insults - one side avoiding questions. I think yiz should all sit back and assess the situation.

I look out my window and there is rubbish everywhere cos the the kids were messing with the bags that havent been collected. Its nice to stand up for what you think is right and all but i paid for my bins to be collected and i want my bins to be collected. If you dont want to pay sort out your own rubbish and stop dragging us all down

by PK Wed Oct 15, 2003 16:30

Do you pay water charges?

by Joe Wed Oct 15, 2003 16:44

'love the rubbish' its the council that is refusing to collect everyones bins. I sugggest you get on to them and let them know how you feel.

Oh and don't worry if the campaign wins you will also benefit.

by love the rubbish Wed Oct 15, 2003 16:56

the council are refushing to drive over the people on the picket line surely?

by enough is enough Wed Oct 15, 2003 17:00

No wrong the dublin city council told the bin drivers yesterday to move us with the Trucks so they are willing to run us over

by binned Wed Oct 15, 2003 20:35

I think what 'love the rubbish' meant was that its stupidly childish for you to say that it was the council who didnt want to pick up the bins when it was you who was blocking the bin-trucks. is that so comlicated for you.....

by enough is enough Thu Oct 16, 2003 09:56

We blockaded the depots because they were not going to collect bins in Dublin 03 and Dublin 05 we were there to support dublin 3 & 5 and let the council know it is all bins or no bins it could be your area next. so come out and support us put an end to non-collection. You cannot expect to know what is going on by listening to the lies and rubbish the news and government will chose to feed you. A girl in my job yesterday said to me supposedly messing yeah thanks they never collected my bins, My reply was you live in dublin 05 i said you can thank the council for that they were not collecting your bins either way this week we were out to support your area, her reply was OHHH!
do you research find out what is on the governments agenda we don't expect you to take our word for it, you will be shocked, I have family in Sligo find out in two years how much their bin charges sworded when you have an eduacted answer to that then i will start listening.
No fear of you getting on bertie's case when he jailed a breast- feeding mother the same week he was promoting breast feeding awareness

by binned Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:08

I was merely pointing out the crux of what love the rubbish was saying. The reason I pointed that ou because I was walking around places like Dominic street and clanbrassil street and the place WAS a mess. I was talking to a few friends from there and they werent happy. As far as they saw it - they werent rich but they wanted to pay their tax and have their service provided to them and that a small amount of people were preventing this happen. Maybe you should talk to other than those few joining the pickets.

And dont get me wrong but I felt the jailings were an affront on democratic process and have absolutely no time for FF and have allways blamed them for starting this crisis. But then I was thinking about it and asked myself whats democratic about a few preventing a majority getting a service they paid for and want. Also my cousin (a lawyer) asked me what else can the courts do - they have broken court orders etc. and refused to abide by them in the future. Now whether they should have been in that position and those court orders should have been there in the first place is another debate because the jailings are a bit of a farce and another waste of tax-payers money

by 3 years of silent campaign Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:36

there you go again with quotes taken straight from the 'so called news' stop swallowing everything you are told there are more than a few protesting. secondly ask your (lawyer) what else could we do we have been campaigning against this for over 3 years behind closed doors- now you tell me what else could we do!!! silently picket in the middle of the phoenix park.
And as for waste of tax payers money €3,300 a week apparently to keep one of us in a prison that a few weeks ago was apparently full to the brim. You must find us innocent campaigners a very easy target to give your self a bit of a lift and make you feel you are doing something? Have you ever asked how much a week ALL these tribunals are costing No of course not then you would really have to know what you are talking about if your are going to confront the government
And go back to your friends in 2 years time when they are paying €700 a year for their bin tax or their €1,000 a year 'household tax' and their congestion tax, etc. etc. etc. while trying to pay a hugh mortgage on their re-zoned house and see what they say then !

by binned Thu Oct 16, 2003 22:45

I was looking at the photographs. Are you going to tell me they are a lie??. Are the photographs involved in some conspiracy against you aswell??

I do ask about the tribunals, I do ask about the expense account, I do ask about the corrupt councillors working for their 'clients', etc etc etc. but I despise the attitude that 'its ok for us to us to break the law etc because oooooo look at what they do' Its childish and foolish and it also shows that you havent a clue about the structure of local and central governance. What do you understand of article 28a and what it means for local democracy and what the responsibilities we have to work towards its principles. none I imagine because otherwise you wouldnt continue spouting the ill-informed nonsense that you do.

by enough is enough Fri Oct 17, 2003 09:59

Look at where the 'I do question but I am not prepared to do anything about it' attitude has got us now.

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:18

ye do know that your local government is directly elected dont you. the next election is next year. involve yourself in the democratic process and stop joining in the pre-eletion marketing campaign of the SP and SF. One-issue election drives are a bad idea.

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:22

you dont know a thing about what I do outside this one (relatively minor) issue. Its acting as a nice little smokescreen for all the other issues we should be concentrating on. I cant be cynical that the above parties are using this as a marketing drive - normally I wouldnt mind except they are using lies, weak rhetoric and ignoring history to support their point.

by Ray Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:23

And what do you know? Do you know that the government has said recalcitrant councils will be dissolved, and administration passed to the unelected county manager? Is this the democratic process you're talking about?

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:52

this is when the local governance cant resolve a situation of the locality. Such as when a minority of the locality prevent the collection of waste or are unable to resolve local taxation revenues. Personally I would rather work closely with local governance the central government anyday - so I dont know what the actions of the anti-bin tax lobby will bring about

by Ray Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:05

Do you know anything about this issue? The government said that if the corpo didn't pass a budget containing bin charges, they would be dissolved. Nothing to do with people preventing waste collection. So it doesn't matter who you vote for in the local elections, either they'll vote for bin charges or charges will be imposed by the county manager. Where is the democracy in this process?
You really are an ignorant muppet, aren't you?

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:12

central government set about the process of local government. They also provided minimal budget provisions and it was up to the local authorities to resolve local taxation revenues. If they cant do that they will be resolved. Just as dublin city council were nearly resolved because thay couldnt agree on workable fees. What do you expect to happen to local government if they cant raise the funding for local services such as waste???

The democratic process is that the local government is directly elected every 5 years and the majority of people pay and agree with the waste charges. Whats democratic about a minority preventing a majority recieving the service they request and pay for.

by Ray Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:24

So, lets get this straight. You think people should stop protesting about the bin charges now, and wait for the local elections next year when they can vote for who they like. But if people elect councillors who vote against the bin charges, then the council will be dissolved, and the charges imposed anyway.
So what you're saying is "Don't protest, wait until the local elections when it makes no difference what you do". You're a clever lad, aren't you?

What I expect the councils to do (or rather, what I think they should do, I don't actually expect them to do it), is obey the mandate from their constituents. None of the councillors were elected on a platform of introducing bin charges. Several of them stated quite plainly that they were opposed to service charges. The public haven't requested these charges. (Some people feel they haven't much choice but to pay them, which is different from requesting them or agreeing with them) So the duty of the councillors is to oppose the introduction of these charges.

Its not my concern where they look for the money after that, but I'd suggest they knock up Charlie McCreevy for the money (you admit) they're owed for 25 years of underfunded subventions.

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 13:02

because you live in a very simple and basic world.

by Ray Fri Oct 17, 2003 13:07

Because I might come home to find you'd given all my stuff to Charlie McCreevy. And then you'd give out to me if I complained.

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 13:22

you know i hate charlie chomper as much as you

by Ray Fri Oct 17, 2003 13:25

You applaud his plans to shift taxation from a centrally-collected, progressive system (income tax) to a locally collected, privatised, regressive scheme (service charges).
He could do with some more enemies like you.

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 13:40

ray, dont drop in that privatised bit. I have stated on many occasions my objection to privatisation and my reasons for that objection. I stated my reasons for disliking centralised governance in the form that we have in ireland. I would like more progressive localised government with greater powers to govern locally with the knowledge and interests of the locality. I cant figure why you cant see how the form of centralised governance and its stranglehold on local government has got us into this mess in the first place. The form of centralised taxation that you seem to admire has led to the inequlaity and general mess of the country.

by Ray Fri Oct 17, 2003 13:48

The fact remains that the only services privatised by the council are those with an independent revenue stream. Privatisation has always _followed_ the introduction of charges, it has never been introduced as a means of collecting charges.
I don't admire centralised taxation per se. But I think progressive taxation is more equitable than regressive taxation, and so the question of where that tax is collected is secondary. If the councils were to fund themselves through a progressive tax, such as local rates on a sliding scale, I would withdraw my objections.
Your problem is that, for all your alleged dislike for McCreevy, you are supporting a charge that shifts the burden of taxation still further away from the rich and onto the working class. The policy of McCreevy and Harney. Have I mentioned how smart this makes you?

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 14:01

I have always called for an equitable system (or sliding scale as you put it). I dont believe in your assertion that privatisation is a stated response to local charges. It doesnt actually make sense and it isnt in any charter or plan for local and regional development. It happens as a last resort when the council cant financially or logistically deal with the issue. Privatisation may even affect areas on their continual quest for Objective 1 status from the EU which is the reason that the country was divided into the new regions in the first place.

I do want industry to be more responsible but im not sure if more taxation is the key. If they are to invest in the expertise, equipment and infrastructure etc will a further increase in taxation allow this to happen?. Again this is a basic view on the situation for industry but the solution need to be better thought out than lumpings of general taxations etc.

by Ray Fri Oct 17, 2003 14:10

1. You've always called for an equitable system (even though you're supporting a system that is completely INequitable)
2. The councils can't be planning to privatise services, because they haven't said that that's what they're planning (even though other councils have privatised bin collection, and even though the government is generally in favour of privatisation)
3. You support the polluter pays principle, a more equitable taxation system, and disagree with McCreevy BUT you think its wrong to tax industry, even if they're the polluters, and even if that would be more equitable.
Glad we got that sorted out.

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 14:42

Putting words in my mouth and not appreciating the facts and breath of the situation. I never said it was WRONG to tax industry (they are being taxed as we speak)- I stated that its the current system that you want to maintain that is inequitable - you cant talk about someone being 'generally in favour' as thats not policy and its open to change with realistic alternatives.

Your gas really. What I say goes into your head - gets jumbled up and set against your worldview filter and then you return it in its modified format - with a smile on your face. I think id like to discuss this with you over a quiet pint - we could document it for some new comedy show.

by Ray Fri Oct 17, 2003 14:51

You're working from a different dictionary to the rest of us.
I explain that the bin charge is inequitable because its a regressive tax, where people on low incomes pay a far higher proportion of their income for the same service as people on high incomes. The income tax system is comparatively equitable, because its a proption of income, and wealthier people pay a higher proportion.
Except in your dictionary, 'equitable' means 'charged by the council', 'democracy' means if you vote for the wrong people your vote is ignored, 'making industry responsible' means not doing anything that might possibly antagonise industry, 'opposing' McCreevy means cheering the taxes he forces through, and a 'privatised' service - as in your constant claims that non-payment will lead to privatisation - is a service that's free at the point of delivery and funded by central taxation.
Why didn't you say so in the first place?

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 14:59

of reinterpreting peoples words alongside your own agenda. First I thought it was funny now its getting a little weird.

by Ray Fri Oct 17, 2003 15:12

Every single claim you've made about the bin tax here has been comprehensively refuted, generally by at least three different people on as many different threads. But you keep coming back, making the same brain-damaged 'points' again and again, incapable of developing your argument or responding to the points others have made. Enough. I'm not wasting any more of my time explaining this shit to you, because you've demonstrated no ability to learn from the explanations.

by binned Fri Oct 17, 2003 18:18

maybe well call it a day. I have enjoyed the debate at times and Ive made my case against a number of people but its clear I still think your wrong and you still think im wrong and thats not going to change. but its good to have more than one view and a number of broad points made on what appeared to many a clear and simple issue.