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Woman dies after being denied a termination

category national | rights and freedoms | feature author Wednesday November 14, 2012 13:04author by indyjourno Report this post to the editors

featured image
Savita Halappanavar

Two demonstrations have been called in light of this tragic death:

Pro-Choice Ireland have called a demonstration for 6 o'clock this evening Wednesday 14th November outside Leinster House.

Action on X in conjunction with Galway Pro-Choice has called a candle lit vigil for this Saturday the 17th of November beginning at the Garden of Remembrance at 4 o'clock.

UPDATE: National Open Pro-Choice Meeting, Saturday, December 8, 12:00pm until 3:00pm at the Gresham Hotel on O'Connell Street.
see HERE for event notice.

31 year old Savita Halappanavar died last week after being denied a termination after presenting with a miscarriage. Having originally presented at the hospital with a back pain on October 21st, it was discovered that Savita was miscarrying. She was 17 weeks pregnant at the time.

Over the course of 3 days in the hospital the doctors refused to carry out an abortion despite there being no hope of survival of the foetus. Savita had requested and abortion several times over the 3 days due to the severe pain she was suffering. She was refused an abortion on the basis that the foetal heartbeat was still beating and that “this is a Catholic country”. After 3 days the foetal heartbeat stopped and finally the foetus was removed. However Savita developed septicaemia caused by the miscarriage and died on the 28th.


Mark Simpson of the BBC tweeted earlier "Just spoke by phone to husband of Savita Halapanavar. Asked if he felt his wife would be alive if she had an abortion: "Of course. No doubt" "

In the aftermath of the reports of the death Choice Ireland renewed their calls for abortion legislation. Spokesperson Stephanie Lord said “Today, some twenty years after the X case we find ourselves asking the same question again - if a woman is pregnant, her life in jeopardy, can she even establish whether or not she has a right to a termination here in Ireland? There is still a disturbing lack of clarity around this issue, decades after the tragic events surrounding the X case in 1992."

Clare Daly speaks out about Savita's needless death
Clare Daly TD and Joan Collins TD introduced an X case bill that was opposed by Fine Gael and Labour. They announced today that in light of the tragic death they will reintroduce the X case bill.

Clare Daly said "First and foremost we wish to extend our heartfelt sympathy and condolences to the woman's husband, family and friends for their terrible loss. This loss is all the worse because it need not have happened.

Make no mistake, had Labour and Fine Gael acted upon our Bill, medical guidelines could have been in place which would have ensured that there would have been no grounds for equivocation about performing an abortion when there was a risk to the life of the woman. Instead, the government took the cowardly step of hiding behind the fourth 'expert group' on abortion since 1992. This refusal to act has contributed to the circumstances which brought about this woman's death. Fianna Fáil and the Greens also bear responsibility, due to their failure to legislate for the X Case.”

Joan Collins stated “We demand a full and public enquiry into the circumstances of this woman's death. We demand that Minister Reilly immediately publish the report of his 'expert group' – now four months overdue from its own promised publication date. We intend to re-submit our X Case Bill, which provides for legal abortion when there is a risk to the life of a woman, as soon as we can. We demand that the government immediately provide Dáil time to promptly bring our Bill into law.

A woman's life has been sacrificed due to the unwillingness of Labour, Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and the Greens to legislate in line with the Supreme Court ruling on the X Case in 1992. We call on the women of Ireland to take to the streets to ensure that action is taken to stop this ever happening again. The first step is to protest at the Dáil at 6pm on Wednesday evening, November 14.”

The Pro-Choice Campaign Ireland have called a protest for this evening to Protest at Savita's death and calling to for the governemnt to legislate on the X case now. The demonstration is 6 o'clock Wednesday the 14th outside Leinster House

Action on X in conjunction with Galway Pro-Choice has called a candle lit vigil for this Saturday the 17th of November beginning at the Garden of Remembrance at 4 o'clock .

Reaction to news of the death in India - The Times of India
Reaction to news of the death in India - The Times of India

author by Kieran O'Sullivan - Personal Capacitypublication date Wed Nov 14, 2012 15:41Report this post to the editors

Anne Lovett was fifteen when she died on 31 January 1984, after giving birth in a grotto in Granard, County Longford. She lay on the cold wet ground bleeding to death beside her dead baby for several hours. After that there was outrage and "seminal national debate" but no action. The time for talk is over action must now be taken, the idea that a woman can die in hospital to save a non-viable life is intolerable.

RTE Documentary on Anne Lovett
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/documentary-podcast-l....html

author by Willow - Blowing in the windpublication date Wed Nov 14, 2012 15:42Report this post to the editors

A young woman, a mother, a member of the medical profession, is dead. An abortion could have saved her life.

In France, they are not determining whether or not to provide abortions, they are aiming to make it free of charge for all who need same. This about women and choice.

Ireland stands in the dark. The Supreme Court ruled on the X case and subsequent cases.

This was a tragedy waiting to happen.

This pushes the requirements now beyond mental health and suicidal.

This woman, a mother is dead, and an abortion could have saved her life.

Ireland needs to come in line with provisions in our European neighbouring countries and NOW

author by Gearoid O Loingsighpublication date Wed Nov 14, 2012 17:45Report this post to the editors

The Doctors who refused the termination should have the licences to practice taken away. The members of the hospital ethics committee should be barred from ever having anything to do with a health service public or private.

author by Des - Nonepublication date Wed Nov 14, 2012 18:34Report this post to the editors

A young woman has died and her death was completely avoidable. I think that's what some people call being 'pro life'. Sick!

author by irishmarxism.netpublication date Wed Nov 14, 2012 19:21Report this post to the editors

This is one of those events that screams out at you. The crocodile tears of the politicians are nauseating, but if this is more than an individual tragedy it needs more than individual outrage. Will a new campaign be born? That may depend on the forces that are already organised.

Related Link: http://irishmarxism.net/2012/11/14/savita-halappanavar-...ntry/
author by serfpublication date Wed Nov 14, 2012 19:31Report this post to the editors

FF / FG political procrastination kills another young woman totally unnecessarily.

author by Docpublication date Wed Nov 14, 2012 23:02Report this post to the editors

"The Doctors who refused the termination should have the licences to practice taken away."

As a doctor myself, this opinion is ass backwards. Docs hands are tied, if they perform the procedure they lose their licence (and probably more). Unfortunately, this highlights the murky legal situation the OBGYNs have to operate in, they know that its unviable yet since there is a heartbeat, nothing can be done as technically the child is still alive. I spoke with a few of my colleagues who are OBGYN (I'm not) and this is a nightmare situation for them.

The blame, I feel, falls squarely at the feet of government who, despite court rulings directing them to legislate for things like this have dragged their feet and tried to hide it under a carpet and hope no one notices. Well people sure as hell notice now, and they are pissed.

author by Gearoid O Loingsighpublication date Thu Nov 15, 2012 03:41Report this post to the editors

She was miscarrying. it was a question of time. They could have administered drugs to speed the process up. She was refused on religious grounds which are not legal grounds.

author by Watching Manypublication date Thu Nov 15, 2012 08:11Report this post to the editors

It was the stuperstition called the Catholic Church which murdered her.

author by Pepepublication date Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:10Report this post to the editors

I don't think a country with such disregard for the lives of women and the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights should be allowed to hold the presidency of the EU next year. Not that I think much of the EU or the EU presidency, but I think a campaign to punish the murderous elite of this country in whatever little self-respect they hold would be a way to make them pay in some way for this monstrosity. This was deliberate murder and there is no ground on which this could be justifiable. This was misogyny and racism brought together (oh, this is a Catholic country, get used to our traditions, here we let women die). This is despicable, full stop.

Hope to see you all on Saturday at 4pm in Parnell Square to make our voices heard.

author by Gearoid O Loingsighpublication date Thu Nov 15, 2012 13:52Report this post to the editors

Irish doctors already apply the X Case judgement in various hospitales. Lack of clarity following the judgement is not the same as the status quo existing prior to the judgment. It is difficult to see the courts persuing someone for implementing a judgement. Take a look at this Fintan O Toole piece on the issue.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0904/1....html

author by john throne - Facts for working peoplepublication date Thu Nov 15, 2012 19:30author email loughfinn at aol dot comReport this post to the editors

Woman killed in Ireland by right wing ideas and policies of Roman Catholic hierarchy and their cowardly politicians.
The murder of the women in Ireland is world news. And so it should be. The Southern Irish state have laws that prevent or make abortion so difficult that it is just about impossible even when the life of the mother is at stake. They have the so called heartbeat law. That is that as long as a heartbeat exists in the fetus it cannot be aborted.

In Ireland a woman was ill in a Galway hospital. Her fetus was dying and all the hospital staff agreed it could not live. But it still had a heartbeat. The mother was in agony and she and her husband pleaded for the fetus to be aborted. But the staff said they could not do it as Ireland was " Catholic country" and they could not abort a fetus when its heart was still beating. (The mother was a Hindu) So they kept the woman in agony for another three days until the heartbeat stopped. Remember all agreed that the baby would not live.

The baby's heart eventually stopped beating. But by this time the mother was so ill by her ordeal that she died. This is a crime. it is murder. The all male anti women Catholic hierarchy imposed their views on this family and killed this mother. They are criminals. Along with them stands the cowardly politicians who would not legislate to change the law to give women the right to choose. They are also criminals

Two courageous women in the national parliament have taken a stand over the past period. Both are socialists. They are Clare Daly and Joan Collins. Some months ago they moved a bill to make abortion available. It was voted down by right wing politicians and even some claiming to be left such as SF. The result of the defeat of this bill is the the killing of this woman. These people who voted down this bill are scum.

The positive thing to come out of this is that demonstrations have been taking place all over Ireland. The majority of the population are enraged. Small towns, cities, the national parliament all are besieged by masses of people protesting and demanding change.

It should be noted that the Republican Party in the US, unbelievable seeing their recent election defeat, are still trying to push their denial of a women's right to choose. In Ohio a heart beat legislation similar to the one that killed the woman in Ireland is being prepared. These people are vicious.

Sean

Related Link: http://Weknowwhatsup.blogspot.com
author by Tpublication date Thu Nov 15, 2012 21:01Report this post to the editors

These screen shots show some of the reaction in various newspapers to the news on the death of Savita. They are from the UK Independent, Voice of Russa, The Hindu and The Times of India

UK Independent
UK Independent

Voice of Russia
Voice of Russia

The Hindu
The Hindu

The Times of India - Nov 15th
The Times of India - Nov 15th

author by Sarahpublication date Thu Nov 15, 2012 21:23Report this post to the editors

This should not be used as an excuse to legalise abortion on demand. As Dr Sam Coulter-Smith, master of the Rotunda Hospital, has said: "if the health is such a risk that there is a risk of death and we are dealing with a foetus that is not viable, there is only one answer to that question, we bring the pregnancy to an end.” The doctor in question could have legally brought the pregancy to an end. An investigation should be carried out as to why the decision was made.

author by Elricpublication date Fri Nov 16, 2012 00:18Report this post to the editors

But the pregnancy wasn't brought to an end. Over the last couple of days many women have been on Liveline relating how they were left screaming in agony until the fetus died. No painkillers, no treatment.

A woman suffering from cancer had to go to England for an abortion, she was refused one in Cork by a Catholic ethics committee.

Never again. The X Case ruling must be legislated for.

author by Elricpublication date Fri Nov 16, 2012 00:20Report this post to the editors

This is what we're up against. Sign beside a nun outside the GPO today.

1nun.jpg

author by fredpublication date Fri Nov 16, 2012 01:51Report this post to the editors

"This should not be used as an excuse to legalise abortion on demand."

Sarah, our stupid laws are just a tax on poor people. They don't really stop abortions, merely transfer them to another geographical location, and make it harder for the poor to avail of.

If you are rich then it's just a minor inconvenience. You can book a first class flight online, book into the ritz for a night or two and maybe take in a show in the west end.

If you are a poor unfortunate girl from Tallaght with drug addict parents and signing on, dog help you. You can't afford the trip and the extra expense. Another unwanted child in already dire circumstances.

Irish law is essentially "if you are rich you can easily get an abortion but If you are poor then your life just got even worse. fuck you."

Thousands of Irish girls each year have extra stress and cost imposed at an already difficult time because of our stupid "head in the sand" catholic laws. This girl died because of them. Others suffer in hospital with unviable foetuses. It's time Ireland jettisoned it's morally bankrupt catholic ethos from our laws. It causes great misery for women. We all saw what the church did to our children. The catholic church has a well known history of misogyny too.

It's time we stopped listening to these people and enshrining their sexist prejudices in our laws.
Out with this stupid blasphemy law. Out with the hypocritical and life threatening abortion provisions.

Let women decide what to do with their own bodies, not a bunch of child rapists and their facilitators, representatives of a foreign power, dressed in black with the ear of conservative politicians.

author by Willow - Human Rights Mother and Childpublication date Fri Nov 16, 2012 13:46Report this post to the editors

20 years since the Supreme Court decision and the X case.

Successive governments will not act. Why. It is cowardice.

Now let there be clarity via legislation.

Again Ireland is behind most other European countries. France are presently aiming to make it free to all women. The Pendulum in Ireland is very far right of centre and unjust.

One question

Do we know how many people read Indymedia? I guess many

author by wageslave - (personal capacity)publication date Mon Nov 19, 2012 04:34Report this post to the editors

if people wish to write a proper factual non racist article dealing specifically with India, it's social issues and it's unforgiving rapacious form of capitalism etc then you can do so, but this is not the place for such comments. Please stick to the topic of this thread. Thank you

author by fredpublication date Mon Nov 19, 2012 04:57Report this post to the editors

You really get a sense of how repressive religion and it's guilt and shame permeated society on the topic of sex at that time. Meanwhile catholic priests continued to rape people's children and be protected and facilitated by church leaders. The church's misogyny and their cold fingers around our laws are still killing women



Some flavour of the abortion debate 1983:



Isn't it time we grew up as a society and faced reality and began to treat women properly. Their bodies, it should be their choice.

author by Penny- SWpublication date Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:16Report this post to the editors

Alot of people here ar jumping to conclusions.
We must have a clear investigation ino why this poor woman died.
Irish doctors are legally obligied to give abortions if the womans life is at risk,but it is considered cessary to stabilise their condition first.
An abortion performed on a woman in a critical condition could result in her death.
Had Savita died of an abortion would people be as angry?
We need a thorough investigatin- not bluster and hysteria.
Talking about catholic priests or blasphamy laws or any other topic will not save women lives.

author by Docpublication date Mon Nov 19, 2012 23:11Report this post to the editors

"She was miscarrying. it was a question of time. They could have administered drugs to speed the process up. She was refused on religious grounds which are not legal grounds." - Gearoid

I don't want to be drawn in speculating on an issue where we don't have all the facts yet. There may have been improper conduct but everyone is relying on hearsay at the moment. However, I will contribute this: She had an incompetent cervix, with amniotic fluid leaking but the baby was still alive with a heartbeat. This does not mean that 100% baby will die, there have been a number of cases where it survived, it is just REALLY REALLY unlikely. However, this aspect of viability is a non-issue, as even if you have a child who has 100% chance of mortality, the doc cannot expedite that death unless there is a real, imminent and substantial risk to the life (not the health) of the mother. This is the crux of the issue, whether it was apparent that there was an evident, impending serious risk to her life at the time of abortion request. And here is where it gets murky.

Firstly, some accounts, notably the Irish Times timeline of events, show her having back pain at the time, with Savita only showing signs of compromise once the heartbeat had stopped and the baby removed. So, if this account is accurate, it may not have been appropriate in Ireland to perform and abortion as many women have backpain during these episodes, many get infections but very few would progress to sepsis and death, so does that consist of a serious and imminent risk to the mothers life? My gut says no, but again, and I have to be clear on this, we are only getting slivers of information and the devil is in the detail. If she was displaying signs of decompensation prior to the decision to remove/heart stopping then it may be a different story, but that information is not available, it will only be available from the patient notes, which the investigations will address.

Secondly what does a serious and imminent risk to he life of the mother mean? How do you measure that? What I am getting at is that one persons interpretation of serious risk is anothers reasonable risk, and despite medical advances there aren't that many investigations that you can do that could illustrate this. Thins such as severe hypotension, loss of conciousness, confusion, profuse bleeding are good indicators but by the time they appear, it may be too late.

As per the obstetricians quote that "this is a catholic country", it is reasonably clear to me within the context of the conversation that what he meant was that due to voting Catholics and politicians trepidation in addressing the issue, the legal situation has conspired to prevent them from performing an abortion. I do not think it was refused based on religious grounds. But that again is just my impression and one based on hearsay, and my experience in the field during my training.

Related Link: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1114/timeline-savita-halapp....html
author by Elricpublication date Mon Nov 19, 2012 23:47Report this post to the editors

Savitas husband back in Ireland.

"Praveen has been asked to give his version of events to embassy officials and to his solicitor so he can have an input into the terms of reference of the HSE inquiry," a friend of Mr Halappanavar told the Herald today. "He has been deeply moved by the vigils which have taken place, especially seeing the thousands of people marching through Dublin. It has given him great comfort," he added.

Savita's brother, Sanjeev Yalagi, also said his family had been moved by the thousands of people who had taken part in vigils across Ireland at the weekend. "We cannot bring Savita back, but we hope there can be change so that women, whether they are Irish or from other countries, are treated differently in the future," he said.

Savita's father, Andanappa Yalagi, who is considering legal action, said: "We want the government of India to put pressure on Ireland to change the law so this won't happen again." ...

Related Link: http://www.herald.ie/news/savitas-husband-to-assist-hse....html
author by highly qualified brain surgeonpublication date Tue Nov 20, 2012 00:53Report this post to the editors

First of all, just because someone calls themselves "doc" on the internet, doesn't mean they are a doctor. In fact, It doesn't mean anything at all. People should be careful not put any weight on such things.

Penny said:"An abortion performed on a woman in a critical condition could result in her death. Had Savita died of an abortion would people be as angry?
We need a thorough investigatin- not bluster and hysteria.
Talking about catholic priests or blasphamy laws or any other topic will not save women lives. "


making up strawman hypothetical situations for rhetorical purposes will not save people's lives either.
At least the person who talked about the catholic priests was talking about real events that actually occurred and real laws that exist on our statutes not hypothetical situations as rhetorical devices

what happened in granard to anne lovett was also a real situation caused by religious shame and guilt. nothing hypothetical there either.

The fact is, Savita did NOT die having an abortion. However it is very likely that she did die because she DIDN'T get an abortion in time because doctors were afraid for their own asses if they went against the catholic misogynistic ethos enshrined in our constitution, and they put that first before what was medically right.

As for investigations, reports, tribunals etc, well at this stage we all know that in Ireland, those are mostly used as a delaying tactic until the crucial moment has passed and nobody cares much anymore about the issue, and to avoid anybody important taking responsibility or blame for anything.

If this was a serious honest investigation then three people from the hospital would not be on the inquiry panel and it would be completed sooner, since all the interviews will be finished in three days.

Expect a long delay for the "report" which will then be ignored gathering dust on a shelf. Expect nobody to get blamed, nothing to change, and a big out of court settlement (from taxpayer funds) with the husband and/or family with no admission of liability by the HSE

Since it's not their money, what do the consultants or politicians or priests care how much of it is spent covering their asses.

Sometimes the cowardly backward way we behave in this country and the way the asses of the elites are protected really sucks and I am ashamed to be Irish.

author by fredpublication date Tue Nov 20, 2012 01:11Report this post to the editors

"As per the obstetricians quote that "this is a catholic country", it is reasonably clear to me within the context of the conversation that what he meant was that due to voting Catholics and politicians trepidation in addressing the issue, the legal situation has conspired to prevent them from performing an abortion. I do not think it was refused based on religious grounds."

But the misogynistic laws enshrined in our constitution that caused the medical indecision / paralysis at that crucial time for Savita were created as a direct result of religious influence on the majority of the voting population.

If that's not religious grounds then what is

If religious ideas strongly influence a constitutional wording and a constitutional wording causes medical indecision at a crucial time then religious ideas are at the root of this. You cannot credibly say otherwise.

The medical decision was made knowing the laws were based on daft religious notions of morality, but the real crime on the part of doctors here is knowing that fact but still putting covering their own asses ahead of what was the right thing to do.

author by fredpublication date Tue Nov 20, 2012 06:51Report this post to the editors

Savita's Husband objects to three members of the so called "enquiry" being from Galway hospital where the death occurred.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1120/....html

I wouldn't blame him!! He has no idea how sneaky religious, medical and especially political ass coverers can be has he?

author by fredpublication date Tue Nov 20, 2012 07:21Report this post to the editors

Bishops: "cherish the ban against abortion"

I can't believe this is the year 2012.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bishops-cherish-th....html

Women of Ireland, I implore you...Isn't it time for irish "pussy riot" type protests to break out in churches all over the country???!!!

another times opinion piece today with a very divisive comment section:
"Americans left agog at confused cruelty of Irish abortion law"
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1119/1...ia=mr

author by W. Finnertypublication date Tue Nov 20, 2012 08:07Report this post to the editors

Article 5 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights reads (in full):

"No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

The full text of the UDHR can be found at the following United Nations web site:
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

==========

"Medical care that causes severe suffering for no justifiable reason can be considered cruel and inhuman, and in some cases, where there is state involvement and specific intent, it can be considered torture."

Failure to provide life-saving abortion:

"Human Rights Watch research into torture and CIDT in health settings includes health care providers' involvement in forcible anal and vaginal exams, female genital mutilation, and failure to provide life-saving abortion, palliative care and treatment for drug dependency."

Both of the two excerpts immediately above have been copied from the following Human Rights Watch www location:
http://www.hrw.org/node/87882

Related Link:
"Life saving abortion, No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment"
http://tinyurl.com/d7byl3l

author by pregnancy in ireland todaypublication date Wed Nov 21, 2012 22:19Report this post to the editors

I think its an absolute tragedy,a outrage,i hope the husband sues them for every penny,and the ''inquiry'',i believe will prove fruitless.As the people responsible for her death,are heading the inquiry,as that husband said,''i have no confidence in the HSE'',and either do i!
Miscarraiges in pregnancy are a lot more common than people would think,and some can prove dangerous,as we have seen from savitas case..

Im friends with a guy who has a new girlfriend who just had a miscarraige at 4 months,she was lucky it wasnt fatal or anything,but like she said to me the other day,to think that could have easily been me.And it coud have been her.This matters also to every woman in ireland,and especially those of child bearing age,and those who pregnant or thinking of getting pregnant..It matters to every husband or boyfriend,every father or mother..

From what i gather,an abortion is illegal,unless it is a danger to the mothers life,so on those grounds i would assume that they failed in their duty of care,and even if that was not the case,they(the state,and the medical staff)STILL FAILED TO SAVE A LIFE..

The government have blocked a vote on abortion in ireland,in 2012..Let me tell you this is not a democracy we live in,as we dont DECIDE what we vote on,they put thier yes no options before us,not the other way around..

author by Trishpublication date Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:14Report this post to the editors

Alot of sectarian comments here.
I would echoe the call to wait for the investigation before claiming that this woman died because she was denied abortion. Ireland has a shining record for women's health during pregnancy. Four times more women die in Britain (per head of pop.) during pregnancy than in Ireland. Twelve times more die in the US. When an irish girl died in a Marie Stopes clinic in England last year, why was there no mass protests and vigils? It barely made the news. The reason is because many are using this tragedy to further their own ideological viewpoint before they are aware of all the facts.

author by Elricpublication date Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:58Report this post to the editors

Irish Times letters 23/11/2012

Sir, – Numerous commentators have stated that Ireland is one of the safest places in the world to give birth based on our maternal mortality statistics. In fact our maternal mortality statistics are calculated differently to those of many other countries, including the UK. We use the crudest definition, thereby making our figures appear artificially low when directly compared with our neighbours. In 2013, Ireland’s maternal mortality rates will be calculated using a more inclusive metric. It is anticipated that overnight our “safe” rate of one per 100,000 will increase by a factor of 10 to a less safe 10 per 100,000. I wonder if our politicians will continue to quote our services as being the best in the world then? – Yours, etc,

KRYSIA LYNCH,
Association for Improvements in the Maternity Services in Ireland,
Seafort Gardens,
Sandymount,
Dublin 4.

author by fredpublication date Fri Nov 23, 2012 16:20Report this post to the editors

Trish

are you factoring in the huge number of Irish girls that go abroad for abortions in your calculations?

Are you and your catholic friends happy that you are not preventing abortions but merely relocating them?

Are you and your so called "pro life" friends happy that enshrining your belief system in our laws has resulted in medical indecision leading to the death of a young woman?

Are you and your catholic friends happy that in effect you are just imposing a large extra cost on poorer women, making it much more difficult for them than it already is. Not prevention, merely making poorer women suffer more for their choices.

Meanwhile having an abortion remains just a minor inconvenience for the rich who can easily afford the flight, accomodation, procedure etc.

I guess god thinks it's ok for the rich to have abortions, just not poor people.

Stupid stupid stupid irrational head in the sand misogynistic religious knee jerk rubbish.

A woman's body is her own. Let her make her own decision and stop disproportionately punishing poor women for making their decision. Nobody decides to have an abortion lightly.

How about a little more pro life action AFTER the children are born and leave women alone to make their own decisions about their own bodies before. For example, I never see youth defence protesting foreign wars at shannon airport!!

I guess pro life people just don't give much of a shit about life once it exits a womans vagina do they?

author by fredpublication date Fri Nov 23, 2012 16:27Report this post to the editors

"When an irish girl died in a Marie Stopes clinic in England last year, why was there no mass protests and vigils? It barely made the news. "

Well if we didn't have this stupid article in our constitution forcing Irish girls to seek "medical treatment" abroad, then maybe that girl could have gotten treatment in an Irish hospital instead and maybe as a result she would still be alive today!!

author by Trishpublication date Sun Nov 25, 2012 16:01Report this post to the editors

Fred,

As was pointed out above, Irish law does prevent abortions. the numbers of irish women who have abortions is substantially lower than women from the UK.

I am not aware that Pro Life laws resulted in the death of a young woman. If you are referring to Savita Halappanavar, then you are aware that Irish law dictates that a doctor must save a woman's life at all costs, even at the expense of the child's life.

I think all this talk about rich women and poor women is just to make yourself feel good as a lefty. The reality is that the Pro choice movement in Ireland is made up of and run by middle class women. I have never meet a working class girl in them yet. The reality is that 'choice' and 'bodily sovereignty' are middle class slogans and ideas. In the likes of Ballyfermot or Tallaght we are more concerned with keeping our children's allowance and getting enough money to heat the house this time of year. So don't try to bring the class issue into it, and do not presume to lecture me on being rich or poor.

The idea that Pro Life people don't care about life after birth is another myth of the trendy left. Maybe we dont have the time to protest foreign wars at Shannon as you suggest; we actually have lives and famillies to support.

Nor are all people who are Pro Life in youth defence, which is but one of many organisations which fight aganist abortion in Ireland.

As to your final comment, that any of the women who died in botched abortions in Britain might not have died had they received abortions in Ireland- why do you say that? do you think Irish doctors will somehow be more careful performing abortions than British ones?

author by fredpublication date Sun Nov 25, 2012 19:26Report this post to the editors

"As was pointed out above, Irish law does prevent abortions. the numbers of irish women who have abortions is substantially lower than women from the UK."

Correlation does not imply causation. I believe all it does is cause hardship to poorer women in an already difficult situation, but it does little to prevent abortions, merely changes the location they occur and makes people like you feel happy with yourselves. Thousands of Irish girls make the difficult journey to England each year in spite of the religious hypocrisy of people like you.

"I am not aware that Pro Life laws resulted in the death of a young woman. If you are referring to Savita Halappanavar, then you are aware that Irish law dictates that a doctor must save a woman's life at all costs, even at the expense of the child's life."

Doctors were confused by their position due to a lack of clarity of our "pro life" abortion legislation (which we have been waiting 20 years for) and believed they had to wait for the heartbeat to cease. Savita was in pain and asked for a termination several times but her request was not acted on. This stupid situation likely resulted in the death of Savita and was a direct result of "pro life" laws and the fear of touching this issue of our craven cowardly self serving politicians caused by pressure from people like you and no doubt from the catholic church too.

"I think all this talk about rich women and poor women is just to make yourself feel good as a lefty. "

Think whatever you like. But you are wrong. It's actually from talking to both poorer girls and rich girls who got themselves pregnant over a long time.

"The reality is that the Pro choice movement in Ireland is made up of and run by middle class women. I have never meet a working class girl in them yet. "

That sentence shows your complete lack of empathy and awareness of current abortion statistics not to mention a chip on your shoulder about "middle class women"

And I'll repeat, correlation does not imply causation. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist. And if I was a poor girl in need of an abortion the last person I would want to talk to would be some pro lifer like you! Perhaps that might explain your lack of data on poorer girls.

"The reality is that 'choice' and 'bodily sovereignty' are middle class slogans and ideas. In the likes of Ballyfermot or Tallaght we are more concerned with keeping our children's allowance and getting enough money to heat the house this time of year. So don't try to bring the class issue into it, and do not presume to lecture me on being rich or poor."

So do you speak for all poorer people here? How utterly arrogant of you.
Somehow I doubt if you are even from Ballyfermot or tallaght either.
I'm not lecturing anyone, merely pointing out how this legislation disproportionately hits the poor while for the rich having an abortion is by comparison just a minor inconvenience. Thats a FACT.
It IS a class issue when the rich can have easy access to services while the poor do not and legislation or lack thereof creates this situation.

"The idea that Pro Life people don't care about life after birth is another myth of the trendy left. Maybe we dont have the time to protest foreign wars at Shannon as you suggest; we actually have lives and famillies to support."

Plenty of time for divisive misogynist protests when the life is inside a womans body though!!

I've never seen any pro lifers on any protests other than so called "pro life" ones
(well you considered this kind of hearsay a valid argument so why shouldn't I?)

"Nor are all people who are Pro Life in youth defence, which is but one of many organisations which fight aganist abortion in Ireland."

but one of the many NUTJOB organisations which fight aganist abortion in Ireland.

there....fixed that for you

"As to your final comment, that any of the women who died in botched abortions in Britain might not have died had they received abortions in Ireland- why do you say that? do you think Irish doctors will somehow be more careful performing abortions than British ones?"

ok to answer that I'll quote you

trish asked:"As to your final comment, that any of the women who died in botched abortions in Britain might not have died had they received abortions in Ireland- why do you say that? do you think Irish doctors will somehow be more careful performing abortions than British ones?"

Trish said previously:"Ireland has a shining record for women's health during pregnancy. Four times more women die in Britain (per head of pop.) during pregnancy than in Ireland. Twelve times more die in the US. "

Well if what you say is true then ...Yeah! I mean with us having such a "shining record" and all. (if you exclude the likes of Savita of course!)

author by Trishpublication date Sun Nov 25, 2012 23:10Report this post to the editors

"Stupid stupid stupid"

"irrational"

"religious knee jerk rubbish"

"hypocrisy"

"arrogant"

"NUTJOB"

"misogynist"

...The last I find the most funny, coming as it is from a man. You should calm down. Have a drink of champagne. Go out and find some "poorer girl" in Dublin to talk to, tell her how great revolutionaries like yourself are going to liberate her from her catholic chains. No thanks!

author by fredpublication date Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:51Report this post to the editors

"The last I find the most funny, coming as it is from a man"

Yes trish. It's rather sad and ironic that a fellow member of the female gender is advocating patriarchal religious and state control over a woman's body here while a lowly man is advocating that a woman should be free to make any decisions regarding her own body herself without such bullying interference.

Your post unmasks strong prejudice against men as well as other women. You have my sympathies. People don't exhibit such bitterness and symptoms of stockholm syndrome without having gone through some suffering.

author by ideal worldpublication date Mon Nov 26, 2012 13:45Report this post to the editors

Very well put!

It seems very likely that the doctors in question were more concerned about themselves than Savita.

May be this has something to do with job security and high pay being more important than patients?

Ideally people should become doctors to help people and the average wage should be sufficient.

author by Frederickpublication date Mon Nov 26, 2012 22:46Report this post to the editors

Remember Noel Browne -

Mc Quade was worried what Protestant Drs would do to Catholic women

maybe let them live rather than die

Save the mother not the child

author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Tue Nov 27, 2012 15:59Report this post to the editors

The case of Savita needs to be investigated on the medical detail that led up to her tragic death. The question of course is: is that possible in a process that is open?
The main point I want to make is this: WE DO HAVE ABORTION IN IRELAND!!. We should legislate for the X case and get on with it. Whether you are pro life or pro choice(simplistic, unhelpful terms, in my view), the fact of the matter is that 1000s of IRISH women travel to Britain every year to have abortions. Ireland does have abortion and let's not pretend otherwise.
Let's get real here.

author by HSE failurespublication date Tue Nov 27, 2012 19:04Report this post to the editors

I think the main point,(im not going to get into discussions about the ins and outs of whether we fully leglislate or not..)I think the irish government are trying to weasel their way out of this one,with the HSE led inquiry,and the fact they cannot acknowledge the doctor in question failed in his/her duty of care to the patient.He knew this procedure could save her life,but didnt carry it out.Now there was a capacity to undertake this procedure,but it wasnt done..So the doctor failed in the duty of care,thats the bottom line.
I hope the widowed husband sues for every last penny..

author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:59Report this post to the editors

The truth is that we are all speculating on this one. The medical steps to deal with an infection/bacteria at an early stage may not have been taken. Doctors do feel open to prosecution, as things currently stand. Look at the issue of assisted suicide. It may well have been negligence or possibly even manslaughter. However, right now this all idle speculation. We don't know. What we do know is that a woman is dead, it certainly looks like it was avoidable by all accounts.
The first step has to be a proper medical enquiry to glean the facts and see if all interventions were administered. We don't know if a termination would have saved her life, however, it certainly looks like it would at least have increased her survival chances. We need proper, independent, medical scrutiny of the sequence of events that led to Savita's death. And as difficult as it may be for all of us, this needs to be totally unbiased. That is the issue in this particular case.
The state needs to legislate for the X case, that goes without saying.

author by John Laganpublication date Wed Nov 28, 2012 15:03Report this post to the editors

Of course, women should have 100% control over their own bodies, the same percentage any man would expect.

If the doctors had listened to Savita she would almost certainly still be alive today.

American medical doctor, Robert Mendelsohn said that the greatest danger to American women's health was often their own doctors, and contended that chauvinistic physicians subjected female patients to degrading, unnecessary and often dangerous medical procedures. He wrote a book on the subject in 1982 entitled "Male Practice: How Doctors Manipulate Women".

The doctors who attended Savita whether male or female, clearly worried more about themselves than their patient.

author by Kitty Meowpublication date Sat Dec 08, 2012 07:05Report this post to the editors

Speaking on Newstalk 106-108fm's Coleman at Large on 28th November 2012, Kitty Holland who wrote the article which sparked this controversy, "Woman 'denied a termination' dies in hospital", made a number of significant clarifications.

She stated that she had not written that headline. She said there was no evidence that a termination had been requested except the 'recollection' of Parveen Halappanavar, which she was 'muddled' on some issues and wrong on others. The issues he was muddled on were the days; he claimed at different times that she was treated with antibiotics at different dates. He also claimed on another occaision that she had not been given any antibiotics but in fact had been given Paracetamol. This is in fact untrue.

This is the only complete text of the interview I could find
http://www.connectingsingles.com/forum_12_197320_1/kitt...w.htm

Kitty Holland also said, "It (the inquiry) may come back and say she came in with a disease she caught from something outside the hospital before she even arrived in and there was no request for termination"

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