IPSC targets Dead Sea Products in Jervis Shopping Centre

by Damien Sat Sep 12, 2009 15:44

Good work guys, But is there any proof that theses stalls are staffed by ex IDF soldiers? I cant imagine an ex Israeli soldiers flogging cosmetics!

by David L - IPSC Sat Sep 12, 2009 17:38

Hi Damien and thanks. About them being in the IDF, that's certainly what they regularly claim when people have approached them. It certainly fits in with their aggressive attitudes, which several people have mentioned. If you think of it, it makes sense. Israeli soldiers generally go away for a year or so after they've done military service to let off steam in some foreign country. They do part time work to pay for their holidays, and so whichever Israeli runs this Dead Sea Cosmetics concession figures this is a way of getting cheap labour.

In the end, whether they are ex-IDF is a side issue, since the main issue is the goods they sell - and it wouldn't matter if the staff were irish, Israeli or whatever .But it is strange for sure

by Ronan OD - IPSC Sun Sep 13, 2009 19:50

Hi Damien, David,

I had a discussion with the two of them when they were outside for a smoke after the protest. The older one had served in the air force and said, when I pushed her on it, she was involved in missions over Palestine. The other said she served with the Army in Ramallah. Both were unrepentant Zionists and fully supported the despicable actions of the Israeli state.

by Bili'n Sun Sep 13, 2009 21:57

About two years ago they were selling the same products in Roches Stores/Debenhams in Limerick. I asked them if they had work prmits to work in Ireland they told me they did not need them as they were working for a company registered in England. (They leaved pretty soon when representation was made to immigration service.)

When I brought up the subject of Palestine one youn man erupted. This hippy looking type went in to a rant about how all the Arab's were terrorists and how he watched his friends being killled when Israel invaded the Lebannon. what could I say to him? All I do was to inform him thats what happens when you invade someelses country but he already knew that.

by Mike Novack Mon Sep 14, 2009 13:27

"But is there any proof that theses stalls are staffed by ex IDF soldiers? I cant imagine an ex Israeli soldiers flogging cosmetics!"

If they are Israelis and aren't "yeshiva bochers" (and it's unlikely you'd find many "black hats" in Ireland) then OF COURSE they would be ex soldiers. Israel has universal military service. All young Israelis (with exceptions for ultra religious girls, "seminary" students as previously noted, etc.) enter training and serve for a few years, then enter the reserves. There isn't really the equivalent of a professional military there, just a permanent cadre of some officers and non-coms but even most officers and noncoms are reservists.

Following their mandatory military service many young Israelis take a year off to see a bit of the world, sort of like "gap year" before ether resuming their education or entering the Israeli work force.

NOTE: The best propoganda is true but misleading. I find it hard to believe that the original poster did not know the reality and that the description of the Israeli employees of these cosmetics stands as "ex IDF soldiers" wasn't gratuitous.

by Ronan OD (pers. cap.) - IPSC Mon Sep 14, 2009 16:37

Your paranoia is showing ‘Mike Novack’. Trying to second guess what was obviously an innocuous comment by Damien to find hidden ulterior motives highlights how you operate. Trying to move the argument from the legitimate economic, political, cultural, sporting boycott of Israel won’t work. There was nothing misleading in Damien’s statement.

There is an increasing realisation among Israelis (and indeed the world) that what their military does is despicable and not sustainable. Many Israelis apply for exemption from service. I met a Refusnik who told me that many use health or other similar grounds as an excuse not to serve, as they disagree with the military’s actions. They do this as it is easier than going down the conscientious objector route. It also distorts the numbers of those who can be counted as conscientious objectors.

The list of organisations that provide support to those who refuse to take part in war crimes in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is growing. While you can't agree with everything they do, some members still serve in the Israeli military, they have spoken out about their nature of their refusal to serve in the West Bank and Gaza.

Serving is only mandatory if you allow it to be.

The two ex-IDF members I met on Saturday certainly didn’t mention that they were part of Courage to Resist or other group. They were proud of the murderous Occupation they had a part in sustaining.

http://www.couragetorefuse.org/english/movement.asp or
http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp

http://www.yeshgvul.org/index_e.asp

http://www.newprofile.org/english/

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/index_e.asp

by Diarmuid - Personal capacity Tue Sep 15, 2009 19:14

Well done the IPSC for taking this action.

Boycotting Israeli products and campaigning for divestment of companies from Israel is an effective means of opposing the state's policies and the most effective action available to many in this country.

This state built on invasion, ethnic cleansing and occupation, and regularly practicing occupation, land-grabbing, ethnic cleansing, racial discrimination and apartheid, murder, torture and piracy needs to be isolated until such time as it deals fairly with its Palestinian citizens and refugees.

BUILD THE MOVEMENT TO BOYCOTT ISRAEL!

by David L Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:04

Additional information to Ronan's post - the number of young Israelis not serving in the military is huge these days. In fact, I find it hard to believe that Mike Novack is unaware of the situation, since it is being treated as a crisis by the Israeli government and those who support the Occupation. It is increasingly easy in Israel to not serve, and i believe something like a third of the Jewish population of Israel manage to get out of it (though this is a ballpark figure - it might only be a quarter or something). This of course excludes the non-Jewish population of Israel, most of whom are not allowed in the army.

Those who join the Israeli army choose to do so. They get benefits for joining the army and jobs they might otherwise not get. But it's their choice.

by Mr Man Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:35

"This of course excludes the non-Jewish population of Israel"
Actually, it only excludes Arabs. Druze and Christians etc. are required to join.

Non-military service is determined by 'Profile 21' whereby physical and mental issues can be taken into account. Not only is this system similar to nearly every other conscripting army in the world (well documented the lengths conscientious objectors and draft dodgers went though in America to avoid service) but nearly every conscripting army actively tries to catch out these people, especially as you said it is apparently a crisis to the govt. Further to this, people who serve do not just "get benefits for joining the army and jobs they might otherwise not get" but people on 'Profile 21' can get refused public drivers licenses and find it very difficult to get drivers licenses. Further again is the fact that employers can look up their records (only possible if they have been profile 21) and see that they officially have a psychological problem (as most section 21 are) thus refuse them employment. To say they have a choice is ignorant, it is like Cromwell saying he didn't want to kill so many Irish, but he gave them a choice of going to Connacht.

by Ronan OD - (www.ipsc.ie) Tue Oct 13, 2009 15:38

Israeli youths reject army call-up.

Some Israeli youth see conscription as a tool by which their state oppress a dispossessed people [AFP]

More than 80 Israeli students have announced their refusal to serve in the Israeli military because of what they call their nation's track-record of oppression in the occupied territories.

The conscientious objectors issued a letter declaring their determination not to join up during a news conference in Tel Aviv in protest against the government's policies towards Gaza and the West Bank.

"We cannot ignore the truth - the occupation is a violent, racist, inhumane, illegal, undemocratic, immoral and an extreme condition that presents a mortal danger to both peoples," the letter read.

"We, who were educated on the values of liberty, justice, honesty and peace, cannot accept it."

It was signed by 84 high school students.

Four of the signatories at the news conference on Monday said they were aware that refusing to enlist would land them in jail, but noted that they were acting out of loyalty to their values and those of the society they live in.

"We were born into the reality of the occupation and many in our generation see it as something 'natural'," Or Ben-David, a 19-year-old from Jerusalem, said.

Ben-David is legally obliged to join the army at the beginning of November.

"But I opened my eyes to what was around me and became critical of the Israeli society. I visited in the West Bank and met with Palestinians, it changed my view of things."

Jail sentence

When asked whether she would do a different kind of public service, another refusenik - Amelia Marcovich - said she considered public service and volunteering to be a lifelong activity and not just something that you do for two or three years because you have to.

"I hope that sitting in jail won't dampen my desire to contribute to the society and that I'll keep on volunteering afterward," she said.

Another objector, Effie Brenner, a student, said he is refusing against his parent's wishes. "My parents reacted really badly when I told them I wouldn't join the army. They threatened to kick me out of house," he said.

Nevertheless, he said it was easier to do three years of military service than to stand up and make a statement and even sit in prison for what you believe in.

"One of the reasons I refuse to join is because I want the Palestinians to know that not all Israelis are in favour of the occupation and that some people are willing to make a sacrifice to end it," Brenner said.

"Palestinians who have heard of what I'm doing have expressed thanks and encouragement."

Brenner said the group had already employed legal representation and they were ready to face the military trials awaiting them.

Similar letters have been publicised over the years by high school seniors slated to enlist ever since the first one was written in 1979.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/10/20....html