Dublin Palestine activists keep up the pressure on NYE and NYD

by Kev - IPSC (Pers cap) Thu Jan 01, 2009 20:06 info at ipsc dot ie

pics

L-R (as far as I'm aware): Christy Moore, Stephen Rea, Robert Ballagh, Richard Boyd-Barrett, Duncan Stewart, Micheal Mac Aonghusa

Massive flag

A banner from the Israeli Occupied Golan Heights (apparently)

Duncan Stewart speaks

Dr. Bassam Nassar speaks

by Moshe Thu Jan 01, 2009 20:25

If only these hypocrites could have protested against 8 years of relentless Hamas rocketing of innocent Israeli civilians?
If only these hypcrites could have protested at the 600+ Palestinian opponents of Hamas, including trade unionists and leftist activists, who were butchered by Hamas?

Hamas have sown the wind and are reaping the whirlwind.

This can all come to an end right away.

Palestinians can recognise the State of Israel, stop training terrorists, stop attacking Israel and make peace.

A two state solution with Israel and Palestine existing in peaceful co-existence is the only solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Hamas are an obstacle to peace and they have demonstrated they want to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews, according to the Hamas Charter.

Chairman Abbas and Fatah are moving in the direction of peace with Israel while the economic and living conditions of Palestinians in the West Bank are improving.

If Fatah or some other party can replace Hamas in Gaza, then peace will be possible.

Hamas must go.

by Vincent Thu Jan 01, 2009 20:37

Good for you Moshe. "Hamas must go" Now you decide who forms governments and where.

President Obama must go, Fianna Fail / Greens Coalition must go .

All democratically elected representatives must go.

That Hag , Livni, must go, and that rotten old corrupt Zombie, Olmert must certainly go.

Mary Mc Aleese , must go, nobody would notice, but she must go all the same.

Get down to Harry Corry's where Moshe says Democracy must go !

And then Moshe , do us all a favour and Go!

by Kev - IPSC (pers cap) Thu Jan 01, 2009 20:38 info at ipsc dot ie

The video was filmed just at the turning of 2008 into 2009.

Caption: Video Id: nlPN-cLGG-U Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video

by Moshe Thu Jan 01, 2009 21:27

You are hysterical.
Just as the Irish Anti-War Movement is hysterical.
Israel is under attack from remorseless evil terrorists who are using the people of Gaza as a human shield while the rocket innocent Israeli civilians.

I ask you, come to southern Israel, live for a day among ordinary Israeli civilians, granparents, parents, teenagers, children and infants who for eight years have lived under constant rocket fire.

What nation on earth would tolerate Hamas?

Is it because they are Jews and they speak Hebrew?

The Arabs have never recognised the State of Israel, they have have never tolerated the existence of the Jewish homeland and they have sought again and again to destroy Israel and murder the Jewish people.

Israel will defend itself regardless of the spineless European governments - governments who swore never again after Dachau and Auschwitz but have stood idly by as the Arabs armies massed to kill the Jews.

Ireland declared itself neutral while Nazis butchered the Jewish people of Europe and then its leader sympathised with the German people upon the death of Hitler!
The IRA collaborated with the Nazis!

Ireland has shamed itself again.
100,000 marched in Dublin to oppose the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, who fired Scud missiles at Israel and gave thousands of dollars to the families of suicide bombers.

by Michael - Human League Thu Jan 01, 2009 22:02

Hell o u just above me . We in Ireland have been through enough to sicken our stomachs .
Between the smoking ban ,which is a cover for future ''Legal arguments'' in regard to Family Breakdowns , which all ends up in the Greedy hands of
Solicitors of which your ''type'' have a vested interest . How dare YOU come on our Indymedia and Run the people down that your ''type'' have persecuted
with the aid of The States for years . It is common knowledge what your clique are up to And OIL is the end of the means of which you are greedy enough
to hide . You have not once mentioned the CHILDREN who your country have MURDERED ,disguised as ENEMYS, and the media which Murdoch And
Company so eager to transmit over the Sattelites have Covered up to suit your ''type''. If your ''type'' went by your religous beliefs then we might have some
respect for your hyped up attitude towards innocent people who your ''type'' are hell bent on getting even with .
GO and read your ''BIBLE'' and see what ur ''bible'' says. YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES.
i Dont normally comment on Foreign Affairs , but i am no idiot either .Your ''type'' know that Bush is on the way out and a decent President is in waiting.

by isaac - none Thu Jan 01, 2009 22:58

I am going to spell it out very simply so that all you Israel haters can understand this:

If Arabs choose to fire rockets (approx 8000 in the last 12 months) from the Gaza strip which was "occupied " by Israel but is now under a much worse "occupation" namely under HAMAS - just ask the Gazans and see what they say -then don'y be too surprised if Israel hits back and hard.

Gone are the days when Jews can be killed with impunity. You better get used to that as its not going to change.

by nintendon't Thu Jan 01, 2009 23:27

Hamas are not occupying the Gaza strip, they were elected.

by Rónan - Unaffiliated Fri Jan 02, 2009 00:01 ronannolan at hotmail dot com

Its about killing and the loss of human life. No one is saying that Hamas firing rockets into Israel is a good thing. Nevertheless killing 400+ people is hardly a reasonable response or likely to help people bring about a peaceful solution. If anything, bombing ordinary and moderate people will drive them ever closer to the militants. Even the British learned that in Ireland.

Palestine is not Europe in the 30's and 40's. No one is denying the massacre of European jews and others during the Nazi period in Europe. However, using it as a justification 60 years later to kill people who weren't alive or remotely involved or even relevant to the Europe of then is a betrayal of the historical lesson we should have learned and to the actual history.

Please stand up for a way forward to peace when the current situation is attrition on a hitherto unprecedented murderous scale. Armed action offers three results only, a win of complete extermination, a loss or more tit-for-tat attrition.

Fine. If its not you & yours doing the dying.

Stop the killing. Look for a peaceful solution.

by Conor. M - S.E.E.D Fri Jan 02, 2009 01:47

Moshe, when you say stop training 'terrorists' are you referring to Hamas who have been pushed to the point of armed resistance or are you referring to the Israeli soldiers who, when turning 18, MUST serve in the army. You do realise the Hamas fighters aren't doing this for fun!

From all perspectives you are a terrorist, IRA, British Army, Hamas, Israel, Vietnamese, USA, ETA, Russia, You know the list goes on forever. Either recognise both Hamas and Israel to be terrorists or both to be legitimate forces.

Your rhetoric, by the way, is ridicules. You go on every thread and say the same things. Why is there no mass movements to stop Gaza attacking Israel, are we all wrong?

by Andy Fri Jan 02, 2009 01:53

How the supporters of terrorism lie to Irish people for thier own gains.

from Irish times by davis morrison ipsc mouthpiece.
IN JUNE, Israel agreed a six-month ceasefire with Hamas. Until December 27th, no Israeli, civilian or military, was killed as a result of rocket or mortar fire from Gaza.

None. Not one. And there was very little rocket or mortar fire out of Gaza until Israel broke the ceasefire in early November.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...581467173.html
Perhaps he should reasearch the definition of the word Ceasefire as he seems to think its ok to carry on rocket and mortar fire while Israel sits on its hands.
verry little he says
223 rockets and 139 mortar shells very little ?
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...f/ipc_e007.pdf

by that comparison when he says Israels disproportionate responce shouldnt he be saying Israels minute responce ?

He also says
"But it didn't. On the contrary, it broke the ceasefire by killing six Palestinians in Gaza on the night of November 4th, while the world was watching the election of Barack Obama. As a result of this unprovoked assault by Israel, the ceasefire broke down - and rocket or mortar fire from Gaza started again. The ceasefire formally came to an end on December 19th after six months."

but if we clearly look they were Terrorists about to carry out an attack to kidnap a soilder and others who were firing rockets no mr morisson still believes thats an unprovoked attack and even Hamas says he was fighting Israelis.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...05/2410881.htm

and here the bull carries on to an incredible level
"Israel had it within its power to make an agreement with Hamas to extend the ceasefire.

All it had to do was to stick to the terms of the original ceasefire - to end military operations against Gaza and its economic strangulation of Gaza. Then Hamas would have agreed to extend the ceasefire"

but Khaled Mashal said they had no intention of renewing the lull.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052228.html

so what has the ipsc to gain from lying to Irish people in a national newspaper
answers Im sure wont be answered.

by Justin Moraan Fri Jan 02, 2009 02:03

Go and read about the viewpoints of the young people in the Shministim who live in Israel and what they think of this conflict, the Israeli army, the Palestinians.

You will learn a lot about nobility of character from people who face up to the unwelcome truth that their State and Army are not what they were taught to believe about them. And facing up to that unwelcome truth they accept prison, isolation from some family members, pain, criticism, hatred, ridicule maybe even from people like you, but they live with honour in the hearts and minds of decent people everywhere. And with clear consciences.

They are the true pride of Israel.

by Philip Fri Jan 02, 2009 16:04

Re: Moshe

Israel is not under attack from “remorseless evil terrorists”. Israel is illegally and brutally grabbing, occupying and settling Palestinian land – 500,000 illegal settlers since 1967. The Palestinians are not the terrorists in this situation – unless you consider the fight back by the French resistance under Nazi occupation to be terrorism too (as the Nazis did, with the same response as Israel’s current one in Gaza). The economic strangling of Gaza and the reduction of its people to pauperism even before this murderous Zionist onslaught was, in the words of Ireland’s Foreign Minister, Dermot Ahern on 11th March, “collective punishment … illegal under international humanitarian law.”

Israel must accept that it established its state at the expense of the Palestinians, 700,000 of whom it ethnically cleansed in 1948 alone. It must now come to terms with living side by side with the people it has so abused for 60 years. Israel was able throughout to act with impunity.

The creation of the Jewish Homeland in the territory of the Palestinians was a British imperialist project. The author of the ‘Balfour Declaration’ – Lord Balfour himself - was an anti-semite, as was Winston Churchill, one of his most ardent backers. Why did they push ahead with this project? In the 1930s the British Governor of 'Mandate Palestine', Sir Andrew Storr, gave a clew when he boasted that the Balfour Declaration would create “another loyal little Jewish Ulster in the Middle East.”

Your comments on “spineless European governments” are apt. They are spineless in their toleration of anything the Zionist state decides to do to the Palestinians trapped in the territories it is illegally occupying. This is because of European guilt over the holocaust, a mass murder in which the Palestinians had no hand act or part.

Your comments on Irish neutrality in WW2 are outrageous. Britain went to war with Germany over Poland, and then did nothing to save Poland. Saving the Jews from the Nazis was never a concern of Britain. Other countries who tried to remain neutral in WW2 include Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland and others, and the only ones who became involved were those that were invaded. The US remained neutral for over two years until attacked by Japan. The US too never fought to “save the Jews” – in fact it refused to admit refugee boats from Europe. So get your facts right on the war, Moshe!

Gaza has been occupied for 40 years, and the current siege and murderous blockade has been going on for three years. Hamas was democratically elected and took over government in Gaza in 2005. The refusal of the Europeans and US to deal with this democratically elected government is an outrage, and of course gave your Israeli friends the excuse they needed for their barbarous treatment of Gaza ever since.

Hamas was on ceasefire for six months until November 2008. During that time there were no Hamas rocket attacks on Israel (though there were some by Islamic Jihad, which were put a stop to). Hamas spokesmen made it clear that a permanent ceasefire was possible if Israel withdrew from the territories occupied illegally (under international law) since 1967. Israel did not keep its side of that ceasefire, especially refusing to lift the economic blockade which has strangled all normal life in Gaza and turned this 40x10 km strip of land into a ghetto for 1.5m people. Where did Israel learn that tactic one wonders…? Israel also broke the ceasefire in a more direct manner on 4th November (when the eyes of the world were on the Barak Obama as he accepted the Democratic Presidential nomination) when Israeli terrorists killed six Palestinians in Gaza. Last February, the Israeli Deputy Defence Minister, Matan Vilnai, horrified the world by threatening - literally - a ‘shoa’ (the Hebrew term for the nazi holocaust) on Gaza if rocket fire didn’t cease. Now that Israel itself has demolished the ceasefire, it appears that it is moving to unleash that shoa against the trapped population of Gaza.

by Mick Fri Jan 02, 2009 17:52

How come hard-moderation is in place with mild comments being removed but these Israeli trolls are aloud be?

by David Morrison - IPSC Fri Jan 02, 2009 20:55

Andy is right in saying that Hamas refused to renew its six-month ceasefire with Israel when it expired in mid-December. It refused to do so, because Israel had failed to honour the terms of the ceasefire.

Under the ceasefire agreement, brokered by Egypt, in exchange for Hamas and other Palestinian groups stopping the firing of rockets and mortars out of Gaza, Israel undertook to end both its military operations against Gaza and its economic strangulation of Gaza. The plain fact is that Israel didn’t end its economic strangulation of Gaza and then killed 6 Palestinians in Gaza on 4 November (when the world was watching the election of Barack Obama).

The ceasefire was by no means perfect. Rockets and mortars were fired out of Gaza between 19 June (when the ceasefire agreement came into force) and 4 November. As far as I know, most if not all of these were fired by Palestinian groups other than Hamas, which Hamas had failed to restrain. Hamas signed up to the ceasefire agreement in order to bring about an improvement in living conditions in Gaza, if Israel lifted its economic blockade. So it had every interest in stopping rocket firing altogether, knowing full well that any rocket firing would be used by Israel as an excuse for maintaining or tightening the blockade, thus undermining its objective of improving living conditions in Gaza.

In any event, there was comparative calm along the border in the period from 19 June to 4 November – and no Israeli civilian was killed during that period by rockets launched from Gaza.

Lest readers doubt that there was a ceasefire arrangement and that Israel broke the terms of it by refusing to lift its economic blockade, here are words of some authoritative witnesses:-

John Ging
He is the Irish Director of Operations for the United Nations Refugee and Works Agency (UNRWA), which is responsible for supplying food aid to more than half of the 1.5 million Palestinians living Gaza. He told The Electronic Intifada on 25 November 2008:

“… there was five months of a ceasefire in the last couple of months, where the people of Gaza did not benefit; they did not have any restoration of a dignified existence. We in fact at the UN, our supplies were also restricted during the period of the ceasefire, to the point where we were left in a very vulnerable and precarious position and with a few days of closure we ran out of food.”

See http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9992.shtml

Robert Serry
He is the UN Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process and Personal Representative of the UN Secretary-General. Here is an extract about Gaza from his report to the Security Council dated 18 September 2008:

“The one area where there is positive news is security. The ceasefire has continued to hold during the reporting period. Hamas has made efforts to prevent the launching of rockets and mortars into Israel and, during the reporting period, two rockets and one mortar were launched. No IDF incursion or air strike was reported during this period; the IDF has responded to isolated rocket fire by closing crossings for a period. One Palestinian was injured by IDF fire in southern Gaza.

“On all other fronts, there is little positive to report. The humanitarian situation is extremely grim, given continued closure [of crossings].”

See link from http://www.un.org/Depts/dhl/resguide/scact2008.htm

World Bank
Extracts from World Bank report of 22 September 2008:-

“Despite the ‘Tahdi’ah’ [truce] called on June 19th, little progress has been made so far toward improving living conditions of the population in Gaza. First, the increase in fuel and humanitarian imports remains far below needs. Secondly, not only are the quantities of inputs entering Gaza insufficient to resuscitate the private sector, the categories and combinations of items allowed to enter are not conducive to most industrial operations. … Moreover, there is still no progress on allowing exports out of Gaza, beyond a set of possible shipments which may be made as a gesture to various donors.

“For Gaza’s economy to revive, it must be able to import a large quantity of industrial and agricultural inputs, and export its products and agricultural produce. Lastly, the reversal of Gaza’s humanitarian crisis extends beyond the entry of goods, and must include the access of the population to the West Bank for all purposes, Israel and elsewhere for health, education and other social services.”

The World Bank also reported that “98% of Gaza’s industrial operations are now inactive” – only 23 out of 3,900 were active.

See http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Reso...8.pdf

Professor Richard Falk
He is the UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. In a statement on 9 December 2008, he said:

“It should be noted that the situation worsened in recent days due to the breakdown of a truce between Hamas and Israel that had been observed for several months by both sides. The truce was maintained by Hamas despite the failure of Israel to fulfill its obligation under the agreement to improve the living conditions of the people of Gaza.

“The recent upsurge of violence occurred after an Israeli incursion that killed several alleged Palestinian militants within Gaza.”

See http://www.unog.ch/80256EDD006B9C2E/(httpNewsByYear_en)/C29B4FA855A144D5C125751A0032D36D

Conclusion
There is no doubt that there was a ceasefire. Nor is there any doubt that Israel failed to keep its part of the bargain and end the economic strangulation of Gaza – and that it brought the ceasefire to an end on 4 November, presumably in preparation for launching its murderous assault on Gaza on 27 December.

To justify such an assault to the world, there had to be rocket firing out of Gaza. It couldn’t have been justified to the world when there was little or none, which was the case prior to 4 November, when Robert Serry was able to say to the Security Council re Gaza that “the one area where there is positive news is security”.

by Andy Sat Jan 03, 2009 14:49

Andy is right in saying that Hamas refused to renew its six-month ceasefire with Israel when it expired in mid-December. It refused to do so, because Israel had failed to honour the terms of the ceasefire.

Under the ceasefire agreement, brokered by Egypt, in exchange for Hamas and other Palestinian groups stopping the firing of rockets and mortars out of Gaza, Israel undertook to end both its military operations against Gaza and its economic strangulation of Gaza. The plain fact is that Israel didn’t end its economic strangulation of Gaza and then killed 6 Palestinians in Gaza on 4 November (when the world was watching the election of Barack Obama).

While Israel did open the crossings the rockets continued and Israel responded to the breach by closing the crossings.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=29345&Cr=g...&Cr1=

The ceasefire was by no means perfect. Rockets and mortars were fired out of Gaza between 19 June (when the ceasefire agreement came into force) and 4 November. As far as I know, most if not all of these were fired by Palestinian groups other than Hamas, which Hamas had failed to restrain.

But as Mr Morrision fails to tell you this was part of the deal that Hamas stops all rockets

Hamas signed up to the ceasefire agreement in order to bring about an improvement in living conditions in Gaza, if Israel lifted its economic blockade. So it had every interest in stopping rocket firing altogether, knowing full well that any rocket firing would be used by Israel as an excuse for maintaining or tightening the blockade, thus undermining its objective of improving living conditions in Gaza.

As I pointed out earlier the rockets and mortars didn’t stop also there was an increase in the number of tunnels into Eygpt which were used to smuggle weapons we can see this now with the number dystroyed on the Philadelpi road.

In any event, there was comparative calm along the border in the period from 19 June to 4 November – and no Israeli civilian was killed during that period by rockets launched from Gaza.

Try telling that to the residents of Sderot and Askelon the psychological and economic effects of your version of comparative calm is laughable when schools and civilians are being targeted indiscrimminantly.

Lest readers doubt that there was a ceasefire arrangement and that Israel broke the terms of it by refusing to lift its economic blockade, here are words of some authoritative witnesses:-

John Ging
He is the Irish Director of Operations for the United Nations Refugee and Works Agency (UNRWA), which is responsible for supplying food aid to more than half of the 1.5 million Palestinians living Gaza. He told The Electronic Intifada on 25 November 2008:

“… there was five months of a ceasefire in the last couple of months, where the people of Gaza did not benefit; they did not have any restoration of a dignified existence. We in fact at the UN, our supplies were also restricted during the period of the ceasefire, to the point where we were left in a very vulnerable and precarious position and with a few days of closure we ran out of food.”

See http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9992.shtml

Lets go back here again Hamas did not stop rocket fire

Robert Serry
He is the UN Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process and Personal Representative of the UN Secretary-General. Here is an extract about Gaza from his report to the Security Council dated 18 September 2008:

“The one area where there is positive news is security. The ceasefire has continued to hold during the reporting period. Hamas has made efforts to prevent the launching of rockets and mortars into Israel and, during the reporting period, two rockets and one mortar were launched. No IDF incursion or air strike was reported during this period; the IDF has responded to isolated rocket fire by closing crossings for a period. One Palestinian was injured by IDF fire in southern Gaza.

“On all other fronts, there is little positive to report. The humanitarian situation is extremely grim, given continued closure [of crossings].”

See link from http://www.un.org/Depts/dhl/resguide/scact2008.htm

Two rockets and one mortar ?
a total of 223 rockets and 139 mortar`s were fired at Israel during the so called “ceasefire”
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/Engli...7.pdf

by that gross underestimation of figures its hard to take him as any kind of source.

World Bank
Extracts from World Bank report of 22 September 2008:-

“Despite the ‘Tahdi’ah’ [truce] called on June 19th, little progress has been made so far toward improving living conditions of the population in Gaza. First, the increase in fuel and humanitarian imports remains far below needs. Secondly, not only are the quantities of inputs entering Gaza insufficient to resuscitate the private sector, the categories and combinations of items allowed to enter are not conducive to most industrial operations. … Moreover, there is still no progress on allowing exports out of Gaza, beyond a set of possible shipments which may be made as a gesture to various donors.

Maybe its something to do with the fact Israelis are afraid to work there after the fuel depot was bombed by Hamas.

“For Gaza’s economy to revive, it must be able to import a large quantity of industrial and agricultural inputs, and export its products and agricultural produce. Lastly, the reversal of Gaza’s humanitarian crisis extends beyond the entry of goods, and must include the access of the population to the West Bank for all purposes, Israel and elsewhere for health, education and other social services.”

Its widely reported Hamas seizes aid for themselves and to sell it to civilians they use any kind of piping and fertilizer to produce rockets how can anyone expect a country under attack to provide the attackers with weapons to be used against them.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3504227,00.html

The World Bank also reported that “98% of Gaza’s industrial operations are now inactive” – only 23 out of 3,900 were active.

See http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Reso...8.pdf

Professor Richard Falk
He is the UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. In a statement on 9 December 2008, he said:

“It should be noted that the situation worsened in recent days due to the breakdown of a truce between Hamas and Israel that had been observed for several months by both sides. The truce was maintained by Hamas despite the failure of Israel to fulfill its obligation under the agreement to improve the living conditions of the people of Gaza.

Hamas arms smuggling industry doesn’t seem to be affected also noted here is that Hamas has hijacked so called independent tunnel operations and now forces them to be “licenced”

“The recent upsurge of violence occurred after an Israeli incursion that killed several alleged Palestinian militants within Gaza.”

See http://www.unog.ch/80256EDD006B9C2E/(httpNewsByYear_en)/C29B4FA855A144D5C125751A0032D36D

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/11/04/200....html

# http://joelsuarez.com/2008/11/04/breaking-israeli-troop...trip/

well see what the Palestinians have to say about the November 16th raid also
A spokesman for a small militant group known as the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC) said that the four were firing mortars into Israel when they were killed.
The Israeli military said Palestinians had launched two rockets earlier in the day into Israel, but no-one was hurt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7731956.stm

Conclusion
There is no doubt that there was a ceasefire.
I think people will see the figures speak for themselves
Nor is there any doubt that Israel failed to keep its part of the bargain and end the economic strangulation of Gaza – and that it brought the ceasefire to an end on 4 November, presumably in preparation for launching its murderous assault on Gaza on 27 December.
Once again they were gunmen who fired back and were in a tunnel designed to kidnap soilders like Gilad Shalit

To justify such an assault to the world, there had to be rocket firing out of Gaza. It couldn’t have been justified to the world when there was little or none, which was the case prior to 4 November, when Robert Serry was able to say to the Security Council re Gaza that “the one area where there is positive news is security”.

I suggest people reread the figures where his one or two statement came from is extraordinarily questionable
Also the current operation Cast Lead is a response to over 450 rockets in a few days Hamas was repeatedly warned by Israel and Eygpt that Israel would respond.
There answer was to continue the attacks.

Apologies for the original post not being highlighted "it just wont work"

by Diarmuid Wed Jan 07, 2009 00:35

Moshe is obviously a Zionist -- end of story. He cannot be convinced by reasoned argument. These people think that Jehovah promised them Palestine and that they are entitled to go there and displace the people living there. Quite like the manifest destiny of the Nazis, actually, that they thought justified them at first in taking over Jewish business and houses and then of the Slavic people. We all know where that ended.

In the late 1800s the World Federation of Zionists met in Geneva and agreed to set up an ethnic and religious Jewish state -- at that time they were looking at Uganda. In 1924 the British agreed to let them have Palestine but also assured the Arabs that the area would remain Arab.

When Jews started flocking to Palestine after the Holocaust, they formed two terrorist groups that sought to displace the British (no bad thing, they had no right to be there) but also the Moslem and Christian Palestinians who for generations had been living there (in peace with about 10% Palestinian Jews).
From that time onwards the Zionists have deprived the Palestinians of their lands and houses and carried out racist and murderous policies towards them. There has never been peace. Of course the Palestinians have resisted and of course sometimes they may do things that I might not agree with. BUT THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM AND THE BIGGEST KILLER HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE ISRAELI ZIONIST STATE.

It is a widely-accepted fact, by the way, that many conservative Jews (including some Zionists) collaborated with the Nazis in choosing radicals, communists and homosexuals from their own communities to be the first to be sent to the death camps and also informed the Nazi authorities on many planning rebellion. It was one of the main factors that tragically ensured that so many people could be killed by so few at so little physical cost to the killers.

As an socialist, anti-imperialist and anti-fascist my place is always with the most oppressed and against the powerful oppressors. In the 1930s, that would have put me alongside the Jews against the Nazis; I would have fought the fascists as the Irish progressives fought the Blueshirts or the British fought the Blackshirts. Now, it puts me alongside the Palestinians and against the state that Moshe supports and also against the USA which backs Israel with millions of dollars a week and without which Israel would have long ceased to exist.

by Padraic Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:03

Hi Diarmuid,

Do you have any evidence or even web links for your 'widely accepted fact' above? Even if its true, and I'm open to you proving that it is, I think there were a lot of 'factors that tragically ensured that so many people could be killed by so few at so little physical cost to the killers' that would be more important.

by roy - none Thu Jan 08, 2009 23:33

If you yank the dogs tail long and hard enough he is eventually going to snap and you might get a nastier bite than you ever could have imagined

Stop firing rockets on innocent Israeli civilians then you give Israel no reason to defend itself as vigourously as it has.

Its as simple as 2 plu 2 but sadly so many of you get 5