Rabbi pronounces religious 'fatwa' against IDF-Refuseniks

by BlackPope Wed Jul 24, 2002 18:34

I posted this first at IMC_Austria, also in English.

Due to the fact that it survived several hours of exposure to the Mod's beady glare, I rashly began to believe that maybe there could be some decency left in them after all !?!

But no worries - after posting a translation to German as a comment on the same page, the whole thing disappeared about ten minutes later.

You can still see it at its new home in the Bin:
http://austria.indymedia.org/display.php3?group=webcast&led=y&sort=&rate=none&filter=hidden

My faith in IMC_Austria's Mods has been fully restored!!

Schalom, BP

by Aidan O'Brien - IMC Ireland Thu Jul 25, 2002 00:45 aidanobrien at hushmail dot com

This is the second time you've arrived on IMC Ireland bemoaning IMC Austria's editorial policy.

1. We're not IMC Austria and all IMCs do not have the same editorial policy, it's decided by each collective.

2. We've no connection to IMC Austria.

3. IMC Austria might be cautious about Israeli posts after what happened to IMC Swizterland. Alternatively IMC Austria might work on a no cross posting or no non relevant to Austria policy. IMC Ireland works under a no cross post policy (articles which are posted on three or more Indymedias globally are removed from our newswire) which you are admitting to doing.

Either way your criticism of IMC Austria aren't really relevant to IMC Ireland. If you have a problem with them please take it up with them, and not here

by BlackPope Thu Jul 25, 2002 09:00

Dear Aidan O'Brien and IMC_ie Moderation in general,

1. Yes, this is not the first (nor even second) time I have *mentioned* the subject of Censorship for political expediency here - however, I do comment and publish on other topics also, and cannot concede that simply informing of this factual news, which may be of interest to all IMC-users, should now be equated with 'moaning'. I do think my points are somewhat more substantiated than just that!

2. I am acutely aware of the differences between IMCs Ireland and Austria, please rest assured! In short, with regard to the disease mentioned in point#1, one is exemplary and absolutely beyond reproach whereas the other plums the depths of some pretty despairful pits. We both already know which is which.

3. 'IMC Austria might be cautious about Israeli posts after what happened to IMC Swizterland.' - an interesting viewpoint indeed - surely that was the exact purpose of said attack, to chill freedom of political expression? Would you have the AKdH suceed with such cheap psycho-tricks? In any case, IMC_Austria and Germany were like this beforehand also. The roots go much deeper!

4. IMC Austria allows crossposting and the Newswire is open to all topics - my articles there and here are generally either original work or first-hand translations of recent opinion/news into either German or English, and as such are not to be considered crosspostings.

In the exceptional case that they deign to respond at all, their justification for the most blatent cases of political censorship consists of just one word - anti-semitism! Never has the word crossposting been even mentioned.

However, now that I am doubly aware of the IMC_ie CP-rules, I will certainly take extra precautions to comply with them.

5. As to the total relevance, well, let me just say that I hope for all our sakes that you are right but I fear and suspect that it could very well turn out to be the other way around. The disease of intimidation and self-censorship emanating from the wreckage of IMC_Swiss can propagate much faster than you might think in our soon-to-be monocultural Europe.

There are many abhorrent features in this monocultural mental soup - things I would very much hate to see IMC_ie and Ireland itself fall victim to - and being informed of them is just one small but necessary step on the road to maintaining and expanding one last bastion of relative freedom.

6. The problem is quite a bit bigger than just IMC_Austria and myself, as this case will perhaps demonstrate:
http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=8336&start=30

I am certainly not 'taking it up' with you, Aidan, - you do not have to explain their behaviour - but am merely informing readers of this forum what I have experienced of how the ideological wind in Europe is blowing, and very starkly at that. Soon enough all will feel its heat!

It was and is my impression that this is an authentic usage of IMC anywhere.

Shalom, BlackPope

by Aidan O'Brien Thu Jul 25, 2002 14:27 aidanobrien at hushmail dot com

1. I said "bemoaning" not "moaning". And this is the second time that I'm aware of as I said that you've arrived on Indymedia Ireland, attacking Indymedia Austria's editorial policy

I am acutely aware of the differences between IMCs Ireland and Austria, please rest assured! In short, with regard to the disease mentioned in point#1, one is exemplary and absolutely beyond reproach whereas the other plums the depths of some pretty despairful pits. We both already know which is which.

2. As for point two. "We both know what which is"?, sorry I don't. I got lost in the adjectives.

3. IMC Austria and Germany were like this beforehand? And you have proof of this? And yes it's true this is intimidation, I can't give you the mindset of IMC Austria, or for example the logistics of libel or anti hate laws in their countries, it's possible they are more cautious, again I'd ask you to take it up with the editorial group.

4. Again you're more familar with IMC austrias editorial policy. Have you considered joining their editorial list and bringing this up with them, and not us.

5. Point five is ponfication and I'm not responding to it.

6. http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=8336&start=30

Thats the previous one I was refering to, and essentially you're making the same point here. I'm unclear what that proves.

Announcing that You've seen the way the wind is blowing in europe because of some censorship on IMC Austria is a bit ,well, melodramatic. I suggest you join their mailing list and get involved, and ask them before putting accusations up here.

http://lists.indymedia.org/

I've spent the last three days answering criticism of Indymedia Irelands editorial policy, it's far too easy to criticize from the outside, and people seem to prefer to do this then get involved even in a group as open and public as Indymedia

by pat c Thu Jul 25, 2002 14:56

Aidan

even the bourgeois media allow criticisms of editorial decisions. you seem to be taking yourself & your position too seriously.

by Aidan Thu Jul 25, 2002 15:08

No Pat I don't and I'm not drunk on power as you seem to suggest. My position on the editorial commitee is on a rotation, and anyone can get involved.

I'm merely pointing out that there is a structure for editorial decisions which anyone can particpate in and get involved in, critizing Indymedia's editorial policy while not taking the opportunity to get involved in it, is being unfair to Indymedia and it's structure.

by pat c Thu Jul 25, 2002 15:23

Aidan,

Many people who contribute to indymedia are involved in other campaigns. there is a limit to what one person can do. therefore people prioritise.

its a bit much to suggest that only those directly involved in imc have the right to criticise editorial decisions.

going on that sort of logic only members of the swp would have the right to criticise swp policies & actions.

pat

by Aidan Thu Jul 25, 2002 15:49

You have my e-mail address.

No anyone can subscribe to a mailing list can't they? These are very low volume lists and you don't need to take an active role. For example theres over 40 people on the editorial list but only five active editorial members.

What I've said (and lets be honest here, you're just smarting because of the Zionist thing) is that is not the forum, and place to bring up critism of IMC editorial policy. Not the newswire and the IMC Ireland Newswire is not the place to bring up criticism of IMC Austria's editorial policy.

We've created a space to do that, and the newswire isn't it.

by pat c Thu Jul 25, 2002 16:18

Aidan

Even the bougeois media sometimes allow criticism of editorial decisions in public. it would be a pity if imc were to restrict such debate to a select few. Remember aidan you are involved in editing imc not running news international.

i'm not smarting about your censorship of my comments. this is a seperate debate.

you really are too thin skinned. learn to accept criticism.

by Aidan Thu Jul 25, 2002 18:25

For starts we are "allowing" criticism see, it's here.

Secondly no we're not running news internationally just IMC Ireland, which is why critizing IMC Austria here isn't right.

Select few? Restrict debate? Re read what's been said, anyone can particpate and get involved, this isn't some weird clique, this is an open group. We've explained to you where is the proper and open place for this........

What about this don't you grasp???????

Aidan

-sound of my head thunking againist the desk over and over again-

by BlackPope Fri Jul 26, 2002 08:55

Dear Aidan,

1. Fair enough!

2. With regard to censorship for political epediency, IMC-Ireland is exemplary and absolutely beyond reproach whereas IMC-Austria plums the depths of some pretty despairful pits.

3. I am working on gathering the proof of this.

'..again I'd ask you to take it up with the editorial group' .. do you seriously imagine I havn't already tried that? That my only wish is to antagonise? Of course I tried to communicate with them, reason with them, in the interests of aiding. But there is absolutely no way - I can only get one single word out of these people - 'Anti-Semitism'!! That's why I can say that the difference between yourself and them is like chalk and cheese.

I imagine that if I were to appear at a 'meating' and identify myself as 'BlackPope', they would probably prefer to club me rather than talk things over!!

4. I'm not sure that is an option, as just this morning on IMC_de, someone claiming to be an IMC_Austria Mod stated that my input there is not gratefully received - I am awaiting proof of authenticity of this statement, but feel it is likely to be verified.
http://de.indymedia.org/2002/07/26824.shtml

5. Hey, that's what Popes do best - pontificate!!
And yes, you not *supposed* to respond to it ;o)

6. It's supposed to indicate that many more than just myself are hurt by this crazed practice - names like Finkelstein, Tim Wise, Neta Golan, Chomsky, Steve Bell, Carlos Latuff and many others are binned with the same lazy plea of 'anti-semitic'!!

7. I don't say this wind thing just because of 'some censorship on IMC Austria' - that would be quite exaggerated; there are many other factors included in that evaluation. Such things are best discussed in a pub or at work!

8. I have in no way criticised Indymedia Ireland's editorial policy, quite the opposite, in fact. IMC-Austria's, yes, decidedly so!
I very much appreciate your and the rest's good work and the whole IMC concept and want to get more involved in IMC-Ireland.

Yours sincerely,

BlackPope

PS: Dear Pat C.,

you know, Aidan makes a very good point here about joining up!! Let's take him up on that!

Please don't harass him unnecessarily, as I can guarantee you that you don't realise in what a heaven you are living here, with such patient, straight-up and reasonable mods at the helm. (your 'Zionist' thing was a great example of an absolutely exemplary reaction on their part!) Being censored for posting reasoned argument, then totally ignored, can be a much more hurtful response. This you have not experienced here.

Maybe we'll see each other at an IMC meeting there sometime, OK?

Schalom, BlackPope

by BlackPope Fri Jul 26, 2002 08:59

... that is, after all, what this *should* have been about, yes?

by BlackPope Fri Jul 26, 2002 09:20

.