Shannon airport now being used as US airforce parking lot?

by USAF Build Up Sun Jul 15, 2007 13:36

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq...rge_i

by Eoin Dubsky Sun Jul 15, 2007 15:02

I remember the only local person RTE radio could get to defend the militarisation of Shannon back in 2002 was a guy who represents local hotels and catering businesses. What's the feeling like now on the ground?

Two C-130s in Shannon Airport, June 2002.

by John Jefferies - AWI Cobh Sun Jul 15, 2007 16:34

On a related matter HMS Liverpool is currently berthed at the North Custom House Quay in Cork City with a heavy garda presence. A sister of the Coventry and Sheffield which went south in the Malvinas Islands in 1982, the Liverpool is a Type 42 Destroyer. 125m long and displacing 4,800 tonnes it is armed with Sea Dart missiles, 2 anti-submarine torpedo tubes, Vulcan Phalanx missiles and 2 x 20mm Oerlikon guns. Oh, plus a Lynx chopper.

HMS Liverpool departs 8am tomorrow (Monday).

by Conor Cregan Mon Jul 16, 2007 23:20

Bull-Shit!

The last commentator (since removed)must be the must hold the last speed record if he can walk, to the area where ED took the shot, from the terminal building in 5-8 minutes.

Obviously not a local person! You’re not local!!! Reminds me of a sketch show on TV.

Interesting that Ed mentions DHL. It is DHL that handles the ground services for the World Airways in Leipzig Airport in Germany. Does the “local” remember them? The troop carrier that left Shannon to scare the locals before the Omni crowd came in?

To question your answer “local”.. you should!

Why don’t you go over to Iraq and fight for Bush?
No it’s easier to post your idiotic opinion from the comfort of your bedroom.

Eoin our local elected officials are now very slow to support George W Bush’s so called “War on Terror” and the usual line is .............I never supported the war but the airport is economically reliant on the US Military.

Now when so people hear this they think ah yeah that’s a good argument but personally I feel it is testament to how the Ahern regime has let down the Midwest. None of these people are calling for ethical investment in Shannon. They seem to just to be keeping their heads down.
Not many of the Politicians differ on this except for the newly appointed Mayor of Clare Patricia McCarthy and Green Party Co. Councillor Brian Meaney.

Councillor McCarthy standard is “things have changed since 911”. This line is churned out any chance she gets when debating the issue. After that that she doesn’t have much substance. During a debate with Ed and Tim on the Vincent Browne show on RTE Radio One she announced that Extraordinary Rendition could not be happening at Shannon Airport because she didn’t hear of any rumours of this at Shannon Town Centre.

Councillor Meaney takes a different view from most...... well ahem....he thinks that the facilities at Shannon should be allowed for the US Military at Shannon so they can leave Iraq. No change there then.

Like most of the “our local elected officals” Meaney is critical of the anti-war protestors. Mind you we haven’t heard much from him since he lost the election for the third time. Meaney who alienated many would be Green Party voters when he criticised activists on Shannon Community Radio (Jet FM) lost out to Tony Mulcahy FG with six votes between them to get in to the fourth count. Ironically there is more that six anti- war activists in Shannon. Funny though looking back it seems that his biggest blunder was being honest.

Link hear for Brian Meaney on Jet FM. http://www.indymedia.org/en/2006/11/874240.shtml

Nearly forgot about the Dapper Brendan Daly. Senator Daly is usually dragged out by local radio stations to defend the government’s position on the matter. Daly always takes the time to remind us of how the US is a good friend to Ireland. More economic scare tactics! Daly like the rest would be better served to lobby for ethical business at Shannon Airport because Bush cant keet the war on for ever.

Can he?

by davehall - none Tue Jul 17, 2007 14:27 davehall50 at yahoo dot com

While i did not get to see the post that Conor refers to as being removed, i hope that this one will not be removed as I have a point to make. Ed, despite your massive efforts over umpteen years for the anti war cause putting a picture that shows only shows an obvious galaxy yet mentions two C 130 Hercules and the omni Troop Carriers does not help with the caption of US military parking lot. Particularly as it was a distant shot and accompanied by a photograph later of two hercules in 2002 (yes five years ago). It is only offering cynicism or disbelief among would be viewers. I know there are difficulties with close range photographs of the a/m aircraft but it would be better to not publish a photograph that doesnt clearly portray the truth. I am very familiar with aircraft recognition, and like yourself AFV recognition but I cannot see any C 130 in this shot. Please do not take this as a criticism of the article or the cause.

by Kieran O'Sullivan - IAWM Tue Jul 17, 2007 14:30

I agree with the last poster the economic argument is very poor. Thoes who use it do not seem to see the flaw in their logic. Sooner or later the war in Iraq will end. Anyone who uses this arguement should simply be asked What happens to shannon when the war ends? This question puts them in a very difficult position they can't deny that the war will end and the ammount of troops going through shannon will deminish. Obviously they can't express a hope that the war doesn't end (the secrot hope of all war profateers).

by The Insider Tue Jul 17, 2007 22:40

.....at this point something like 75 % of the US population is opposed to the war, and it looks like the troops will be coming home next year.

It's over, and whether they use Shannon any more doesn't matter.

This issue becomes more and more symbolic with each passing day.

by John Jefferies - Anti-War Ireland Wed Jul 18, 2007 07:11

There is no sign, as the previous poster "The Insider" states, that the war is ending. Nobody in the US administration, or for that matter the US opposition, has said definitively that they will withdraw all US military personnel and end their logistical, military and covert involvement in Iraq.

Hilary Clinton talks about ending the war and withdrawing troops but says "we may need a vastly reduced residual force to train Iraqi troops, provide logistical support, and conduct counterterrorism operations". Sounds like what Kennedy said about Vietnam in the early 1960s.

Barack Obama supports "a limited number of U.S. troops to remain in Iraq as basic force protection, to engage in counter-terrorism and to continue the training of Iraqi security forces". This is before the US presidential election in response to domestic public opinion and calls to "bring our boys home". After the election it may be another story and it always is.

Indeed both of the main Democratic party candidates referred to "engaging in counter-terrorism" - this is exactly what so-called rendition is and it's clear that they will continue it in some form or other. Whatever form it takes it will involve covert and probably illegal actions and almost certainly they will use Shannon as a springboard for this.

The bloody carnage that has been unleashed by the US-led intervention in Iraq will continue long after US, British and other troops are pulled out of that country and the US will continue to protect what it considers its own strategic interests (i.e Oil). So we cannot rely on the US to stop using Shannon. We, the Irish people must do that ourselves by keeping up the campaigns and the exposure of what is going on there and that's why the monitoring that Ed Horgan and others are engaging in is so important.

Indeed the idea that just because the United States' latest conflict is over and that means Shannon is no longer an issue is ludicrous. What about the next war they choose to start?

The former Fianna Fáil / PD coalition government gave carte blanche to the US administration to do whatever they like in Shannon, to use it as a quasi-military base, no questions asked and there is no evidence that the new eco-trendy administration will change any of that.

by Local Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:20

In fact Conor im local enough to know you live in Cronan park...you helped organise the paintings on the fence of the jim woods deveolpment near the Gaa club(if you could have a word with the lady who lives in the conor house and remind her that her front garden shouldnt really be used as an illegal dump the local community would be much obliged) and that your the fella who tried to arrest troops in a car at the clare inn.......im also local enough to know that the photo was taking at the perimeter fence just up past westairs hanger and if you could be bothered to walk it Conor it would take you about 8 mins to get to the airport from there ......And yes i remember World airlines..charter airline useing MD-11'S in and out of Shannon for a few years before they transfered to Leipzeig......i do remember one of their aircraft getting stuck in the mud when it rolled off the runway once..it had been chartered by Aer Lingus at the time.......Its not really that interesting that ED mentions DHL...or that you say they are provideing ground services for the US in Leipzig.......the fact remains the US airforce wouldnt send their aircraft parts useing it for security reasons something that i see you dont contradict me on in your rant/post......Why dont i go over to Iraq and fight for Bush????...unfourtnatly for you dear boy the world isn't black and white...there are shades of grey mainly..my not objecting to aircraft landing in Shannon isnt the samething as saying i want to join the US military and blow away Iraqis... thats like me saying that becasue your anti us refuelling in Shannon that you should go out to Iraq and join one of their terrorist organisations....????That my opinion isnt the same as yours dosent make it idiotic...idiotic would be attempting to carry out a citizens arrest on soldiers in a car or to assume that because Brian Meany didnt get elected because of his disaproval of Antiwar persons tacttics.....if you see who did get elected you might actually have to acknowledge that the local population actually back the government on this issue...but heck Conor i only can comment on what i see from the safety of my bedroom.....

by Conor Cregan Wed Jul 18, 2007 14:59

Everything you‘ve mentioned about me is the public domain because it has all been printed in the newspapers. So I am still not fully convinced that you are a local but that is no matter as this isn’t a local matter.

For the record the photo was not taken “just up past westairs hanger” but at the viewing area near the Shannon Aerospace hanger at the back of the airport. You wouldn’t walk to the airport in eight minutes. In fact I doubt if you could drive to the airport in eight minutes.

The DHL issue is very interesting.

This is another civilian company benefitting from the US invasion of Iraq. Other transport companies with contracts are Evergreen Airways, Polar Air and Maersk. These are all companies that use Shannon Airport. Evergreen and Polar have brought missiles through Shannon in the past. All very interesting.

“the fact remains the US airforce wouldnt send their aircraft parts useing it for security reasons something that i see you dont contradict me on in your rant/post.”
This is a fact then? Where do you back this “fact” up? I don’t contradict you in this because I didn’t make this point in the first place. Considering that military logistics is Ed’s field I will leave it to him to argue with you about this.

“unfourtnatly for you dear boy the world isn't black and white...” ??????????????/ it gets more bizarre!

“my not objecting to aircraft landing in Shannon isnt the samething as saying i want to join the US military and blow away Iraqis”

Really? Did Bush not say that you’re either with him or against him? The tone of your posts makes me believe you are a cheerleader for the so called “War on Terror” and you believe it’s quite alright for the Midwest to profit from the carnage that is Iraq today.

“That my opinion isnt the same as yours dosent make it idiotic”

No its content of your opinion that makes it idiotic. You use the word terrorist and it’s obvious you that either you don’t realise what’s happening in Iraq or that you don’t fully understand the full meaning of the word.

“idiotic would be attempting to carry out a citizens arrest on soldiers”

The citizens arrest thing (not my finest moment) is fully vindicated by a letter from the Dept of Foreign Affairs stating that the US troops were in breach of Irish law and generated a lot of press whilst exposing the Irish governments disregard for the Irish constitution.

“Brian Meany didnt get elected because of his disaproval of Antiwar persons tacttics.”

You are unbelievable! That’s not what I said. Meaney needed six votes to get into the fourth count. We will never know if he would have got into the fifth count. I know plenty of people who would normally vote for the Green Party who didn’t vote for Meaney because of his lack of support for both the Shannon and Rossport.

Brian Meany didn’t get into the fourth count because of his disapproval of Antiwar persons tactics.

“if you see who did get elected you might actually have to acknowledge that the local population actually back the government on this issue...”

Oh yeah this must be true........... because the last election was a referendum on the Shannon issue and downgrading of Ennis General Hospital. Of course the local population supports this as well.

Local, if you are truly are a local, make yourself known and we can debate this further over a civilised cup of coffee. Although you won’t change my point of view I believe you would benefit from talking to me. You will be lot more informed in making your opinion. I could even introduce you to the lady in the corner house and you could talk to her about here garden yourself.

by Local i really am - none Thu Jul 19, 2007 00:19

I will concede to you on one thing cornor..i did get the location of the photo wrong.......

As for your statement re Evergreen and Polar bringing missles thru our airports....they would have to do this with the cooperation of the state and various government agencies..to allow them to do so is the decision of the democratically elected government...when your in power maybe you can reverse it or capitulate like your former friends the Green party and Finian McGrath........you say i am a cheerleader for this war.....i as an indvidual would prefer a world where wars wouldnt have to fought but they are.. i would have prefered if the US hadnt attacked Iraq but they did and now that they are in there it would be wrong of them to withdraw and abandon IRAQ to an even more bloody future than what has happened in the past 4 years with the likes of Iran Turkey the Kurds and Syrria waiting to carve apart the country....the US has created the problem in IRAQ the least they can do is stay around until such time as they have reestablished iraq as a country able to stand on its own.But dont take my word for it...U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon warned on Monday against an "abrupt withdrawal" by U.S. forces from Iraq and said the international community must not abandon the Iraqi people."Great caution should be taken for the sake of Iraqi people," he said. "The international community can not and should not abandon them. Any abrupt withdrawal or decision may lead to a further deterioration of the situation in Iraq."Ban said the situation in Iraq was a problem to be dealt with by the whole world and the United Nations would continue to make every effort on the humanitarian front.
Asked if he agreed with predecessor Kofi Annan that the Iraq war was illegal, he said it was important to "look to the future" and "not look back." I tend to agree with him on this one...to continue to harp on about the legality of the war and to call for an immediate withdrawl at this stage is to look at the sitution as if it was a black and white one....ie Yanks leave=Iraqis stop dieing.....they wont..more would die in a bloody civil and a possible middle eastern conflict involveing the whole region could insue...thats the grey i refer to and possiblity that i suspect the yee have forgetten to consider in your blinkered view of the Iraqi situation...to want to save the lives of your fellow humans is commendable...to believe that by achieveing your goals ie pulling us troop planes out of Shannon wll save lives is shortsighted to say the least....the Us will refuel elsewhere and continue the war regardless of what happens in shannon..which they have done at Lipzeig and in Scotland.....aircraft form all over the world invloved in conflicts such as british ,Dutch,Jordanian Pakastani and russian jets have all refulled in Shannon thru the years.....i dont recall protests at the airport by you Conor against the Pakastai jumbos refuelling there at the same time they were involved in a war against India over Kashmir or against the USSR when they were brutaliseing half of Europe and invadeing Afghanistan...?????

As for your offer of a cup of coffee i would suggest that you avoid O briens in skycourt cos its a bit pricey and not all that tasty...Nosh and Coffee is your only man...regarding the possibility of debate i do not require assistance in being informed of your so called facts in the making of my opinions....quite a lot of what i have read on here i know to be complete and utter hogwash and factually baseless in the real world ..indymedia is quite similar to the X-files in its assertion of what is factual sometimes......perhaps i could help you achieve a more pragmatic outlook to the world and a less idealistic and shortsighted one......as in all my time of reading stuff on Indymedia i havent seen one proposal that would actually improve the situation in Iraq....
Here are a few things for you to think about Conor.....
Dose it really matter to the peole of Iraq whether the invasion was legal or illegal or do they actually care more about surviving at this prsent time ??
If the US dosent refuel in Shannon will the war stop????
If the US pulls its troops out tommrow what will happen to Iraq without a functioning army police force or government and services in place ??
Who will stop the Syrrians the iranians Turkish and other countries form trying to carve up Iraq if the yanks go before they have reestablished the army and police???

by MichaelY - iawm Thu Jul 19, 2007 01:27

Dear local or not - your location matters little.
Your views, however, are significant because they reflect those of quite a few people both in Ireland, including Government and Foreign Affairs hacks, some Greens, a whole load of Republicans and Democrats in the US itself and many many ordinary people, who while totally disgusted and annoyed of what went on, with the lies we were told...they now feel some guilt that if "we left those poor Iraqis to their fate, they would kill each other, they would be carved up by the neighbouring predators etc etc".
Let us look at the situation from two angles: First let us consider the political situation as it regards the war itself and then, let us consider the political implications here in Ireland and internationally.

Most rational people, in the US, in Europe and in Ireland recognise that the whole war was based on lies and misinformation and most no longer believe either Bush or the generals or Blair and the new kid on the block when they assure us that vistory is still possible. The military situation is worsening by the day, despite the so-called 'surge'. May and June last spiked as the second and third highest months for deaths both of US soldiers as well as Iraqis - about 3,000 each month for the latter. Two million Iraqis have fled the country and another two million are internal refugees. At the same time, the war in Iraq is influencing directly what is happening in Afghanistan, in Palestine and the entire Arab world in general. Fundamentalist forces are strenghtening their hold - more and more people are becoming or consdiering of becoming jihadists.
All this, my good friend, is not "the past"....it's very much the present and worse variants will determine the future. The fact that over a million of those soldiers have passed backwards and forwards from Shannon is not incidental either. It is a full and illegal compliance, collaboration, complicity of our Government, the old and the 'new' in this mayhem. However you shift the tables, they were not elected to facilitate murder and pillage - they were not voted in to be part and parcel of hundreds of thousands of deaths. The fact that some blood money has been generated is not a good excuse either. Which brings us to the second issue and some of the questions you pose:

- " Does it really matter to the people of Iraq whether the invasion was legal or illegal or do they actually care more about surviving at this present time " you ask. It's like asking a family whose a couple of members have been raped whether it is important that the rape was an illegal act or do they care more about survival....Of course they care about survival, that's why two million have left the country, and are trying to survive in Syria and Jordan, and another two million have moved to other 'safer' areas....and that's why over 70%, in a poll after poll, Sunni, Shia and Kurd say the Americans should get the hell out. The illegality of the invasion and are part in it are things we, in the West, have to consider and deal with.

If the US dosent refuel in Shannon will the war stop???? you ask....no it won't, not by itself....but it will have a huge impact across the world, it will let know the Iraqi people, the Arab people, the American people, the Irish Americans where we stand in this country. It will weaken the war mongers in the government and the opposition....it will create an almost new political climate. See the effect in Spain and in Italy when mass movements forced their government not to play ball. It brought the whole cabal down.

"If the US pulls its troops out tomorrow what will happen to Iraq without a functioning army police force or government and services in place ?? Who will stop the Syrians the iranians Turkish and other countries form trying to carve up Iraq if the yanks go before they have reestablished the army and police???" is your final, and as far as you're concerned the KEY question.

To start with, this hypothetical scenario is what every occupier, every invader asks before they're kicked out.....that's what the Nazis were asking before they were sent packing from Greece, Soviet Union, Poland, Austria, Belgium. Holland and many more places. That's what the Brits were asking before they were kicked out of Malaysia and Cyprus and India and Iraq and Palestine.....that's what the white Boers were asking in South Africa and the Brits in Rhodesia and Kenya.....that's what the Brits were asking when they were kicked out of America...and closer at home from the 6 Counties.... Remember the scenarios of the civil war in the 32 Counties....Loyalists marauding the streets of Dublin and Cork? Or are you too young to remember? And before that was the same refrain of the Black and Tans down in the 26 Counties.

Dear friend, national independence is a very valuable and important concept. It has a price, it may mean a civil war, people will work hard to link and coalesce often competing interests, be they race be they religion be they gender be they political positions. But after a while, a few years, people that are united around notions of nationhood and space learn to live together and struggle under the one roof. The Iraqi people have a long history of anti-imperialist struggle, of democracy, of living under a brutal dictatorhip and now of fighting foreign invaders. Let us from our angle, have faith in them - they don't need the likes of Bush and Blair or the mullahs of Iran or the military hacks of Turkey to tell them how to live.

Finally I agree with you re: Nosh and Coffee. At least one thing that we agree on...take care

Full of democracy and justice this bullet my Irish friends! Nearly killed me in Sadr City the other day.

by Edward Horgan Thu Jul 19, 2007 09:30

I am not sure where the above photo came from but the bullet shown in it is a .5 inch or 12.7 mm bullet, used in very large quantities by US armoured vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan. Because the head of the bullet appears to be undamaged after use, it is likely to be an armoured piercing bullet that is likely to contain depleted uranium. Depleted uranium is used to give the bullets and other munitions increased weight or density and hardness. It is also a very convenient way of getting rid of waste radioactive materials from US and British nuclear power stations. When many of the bullets disintegrate after impact they scatter a fine radio active dust which has caused cancer for many thousands of victims from Kuwait and southern Iraq in 199, Bosnia in 1995, to Kosovo 1999, and throughout Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001 and 2003.
It is likely that millions of these depleted Uranium bullets were transported though Shannon airport in US military Hercules C 130 aircraft. Young children have been very susceptible to leukaemia and other cancers caused by depleted uranium in Iraq.
It is of interest also that the US military and environmental agencies in the USA have banned the use of these depleted uranium bullets on military firing ranges within the United States, for "health, safety and environmental reasons". They don’t want to pollute their own country, but have no problem polluting impoverished communities in Iraq, Bosnia, Afghanistan and elsewhere.
Irish soldiers on peacekeeping missions, especially in Bosnia, Kosovo and Southern Lebanon have been exposed to depleted uranium. This may be contributing to a high incidence of cancer amount serving and retired Irish soldiers. The hills around Sarajevo, where I worked myself for a while in 1996, were contaminated with depleted uranium from NATO bombs dropped on Serbian artillery in 1995. There are significant areas of uranium contamination in Basra, Falujah and Baghdad.
The use of such weapons likely to cause widespread deaths and injuries to civilians and non-combatants is contrary to the Geneva Conventions on war.
If you care, speak out now and come to Shannon to protest.

by 12.7 Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:02

That you as an ex military man cant recognise a RUSSIAN 12.7 round.NOT used by US military.
But then never let any chance by to invoke the evil Americans for the total Ills of the world.Bet you blame them for the lousey Summer here as well.!

by Edward Horgan Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:09

Hello 12.7,
If you knew anything about mathematics you would be aware that half an inch or .5 inch is the exact equivalent of 12.7 millimetres.
This simply indicates the size of the bullet in question.
More forensic examination would be needed to establish the exact type and origin.

by bullit Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:51

the camera angle is misleading, the round in question looks more like a 7.62 mm round from a machine gun. The camera angle distors the size but even so it it still far too small to be a .5 round

by davehall - none Thu Jul 19, 2007 13:22

Yes Ed is right .5 in is 12.7mm, and the round is certainly bigger than 7.62mm, as the size refers to the bore of the weapon and as such the diameter of the projectile not what the bullet casing looks like (obviously much bigger). However I suspect the photograph is posed and that projectile has been prised from its casing as it is totally untouched in terms of damage (despite increased hardness compared to standard copper coated lead) and there is no evidence of scoring from barrel rifling (grooves of barrel).

by Edward Thu Jul 19, 2007 14:51

Daveall is right on the size of the bullet. When compared with the size of hte lady's fingers it is clear that the bullet is half an inch in diametre. However on closer inspection, there are signs of damage on the bottom right of the bullet and discolouration right down the right side, which does not seen to correspond to a light shadow. I would guess that this bullet glanced off something relatively soft towards the end of its trajectory, when if velocity was greatly reduced. These bullets can tarvel up to two miles, but the further they travel the less effective they are.
At under a mile range one of these bullets has the capacity to amputate an arm or leg, and an impact on the trunk of the body or head is almost alway fatal.
The lady in the picture does not look like a "poser" or model. I would like more information on the source of the photo, so would appreciate if Michael Y could oblige. Her hands indicate a poor hardworking rural person rather than an urban dweller, and her face is indicative of the stress and trauma that very many people in Iraq are suffering.

by MichaelY - iawm Thu Jul 19, 2007 15:37

Hi Ed,

It's so instructive, if not very pleasant, to see how a thread on what's going on in Shannon suddenly moves to a technological debate about the source of the bullet, the veracity of the 'model; or the projectile itself etc.
I am responding to your request only because it's you and I value enormously your integrity, your courage, your honesty and your hard work. The picture was taken on the afternoon of last Tuesday, July 10th. The lady in question told journalists that the specific bullet, ricocheted into her house and hit her mattress, when she was asleep. This happened at the early hours of the morning when US troops were fighting insurgents in and around the impoverished parts of Sadr City where she has been living for the last 46 years.
The pic was taken by the freelance photographer Wissam Al Oka who works with the AFP.
Incidentally, give me a call sometime as I have a few questions to ask you myself re: Conferences etc.

Solidarity my good friend.

by Edward Horgan Thu Jul 19, 2007 22:56

Thanks for the information Michael.
The reason I got involved in this discussion around the bullet, is that the propaganda around the Iraq war tends to be focused on de-personalising the effects of the war on the individuals who are suffering. Statistics on war dead are easily brushed aside, and US military bombers drop their bombs without having to see the devastation caused to families and individuals.
One bullet and the effects it has on the one individual it hits or contaminates is part of the reality of war.
It is individuals who suffer in wars, not countries. Iraq will still be a location on some map in 10,000 years time, but the suffering of the individuals in this war is very real, and those who are killed can never be brought back to life.
The dignity of the individuals who are suffering is also important. This lady in the photo displays the dignity in the face of suffering that is one of the many positives aspects of Islamic culture and tradition.
When we protest against war, it is people such as she and her friends and relatives that have been killed or injured that we should keep in mind.
May they see peace some time soon

by 12.7 Thu Jul 19, 2007 23:15

YOU ARE WRONG!! 12.7mm from a Russinan Dshk is MORE than a 50 cal [1/2 inch].Somthing like 3.5mm of the difference.You DO know why that is so??So that the Warsaw pact could use NATO ammo if they were ever short in their peaceful visit to the West possibly all those years ago. But maybe you forgot all your "baby killer "training as well????There is nothing worse than a road to Damascus convert for blind fanatisim to any cause,war or peace.You make me feel ASHAMED to be Irish,or to even think that you were once associated with the PDF.

by Biker Fri Jul 20, 2007 08:00

I think the last comments by "12.7" are shameful. As an Irishman I am proud that an ex-officer of our army has come out so publicly on this issue. The only pity is that some serving officers couldn't join him, regardless of the effect on their careers. A high profile courtmartial of a serving officer, while a difficult thing for the individual and his family, would put this in international perspective.

You talk in such a blasé way about "baby killing training". How dare you! The Irish army over many decades trained its troops in peacekeeping and in defusing situations of conflict, often putting themselves in the line of fire to protect innocent people caught in the crossfire. Many paid for with their lives for that stragegy in the Congo, Lebanon and elsewhere. Ed Horgan is from that generation.

Unfortunately in recent years the Irish Defence Forces have moved towards a more belligerent form of training in preparation for the EU Battlegrouops and serving with NATO "peacekeeping" forces rather than those under direct UN control. Those at the top and their political masters such as Minister O'Dea want to be "boys with toys" like their US, British and other counterparts. Every little boy wants a nice shiny gun, but some grow out of it.

That doesn't take away from the commitment of the many Irish soldiers who want no part in this new style combat but for economic reasons are trapped there knowing that they have to stay on to get a meagre pension and security in their old age.

People like Ed Horgan cannot be compared with the soldiers who are currently in Iraq who were trained to kill and who are driven by demonic officers, even though many of these young soldiers are there, not because they want to kill, but because it was the only way to earn a living and to get out of the poverty and ghettoesof the American South.

Ireland should be proud of people like Ed Horgan for standing up and being counted. So take your "baby killer" comments back against this man and those like him who represent everything that is good in the old tradition of peacekeepers.

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Jul 20, 2007 15:26

Hilary Clinton, I read, has asked the Pentagon to detail how it is planning for the eventual withdrawal of U.S. military forces from Iraq, pointing out that whenever troops leave, it will be no simple task to transport the people, equipment, and vehicles out of Iraq, possibly through hostile territory.

Yesterday she received a sharply worded reply from Eric Edelman, the Defense Department's undersecretary for policy, saying such discussions boost the enemy. What's new mehtinks.

"Premature and public discussion of the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq reinforces enemy propaganda that the United States will abandon its allies in Iraq, much as we are perceived to have done in Vietnam, Lebanon and Somalia," Edelman wrote. Check the word 'perceived' - lol.

Clinton responded that Edelman had ducked her questions and "instead made spurious arguments to avoid addressing contingency planning." "Undersecretary Edelman has his priorities backward," Clinton said, "his claims are outrageous and dangerous."

Whichever way we look at this, Edelman's letter does indicate the Pentagon might be planning how to withdraw. His response to Clinton included the following "We are always evaluating and planning for possible contingencies. As you know, it is longstanding departmental policy that operational plans, including contingency plans, are not released outside of the department."

A few things to think about - over and above the precise size of bullets.......

by !2.7 Fri Jul 20, 2007 16:31

I TAKE NOTHING BACK.
Ed Horgan was in a military unit whose only function and training was to kill other people as well. You are nothing but a hyprocrite to suggest that he is any better than any other "baby killer" army. Despite his conversion and your blase assumptions that the Irish army put itself in the firnig line to protect other people.Where exactly???? This Bullshit is now because he is playing with the peacenicks makes him all of a sudden a golden poster boy and ah shure we will forget about his past as he is converted,and is Irish of course to a worthier cause,makes me want to vomit.
Peace keepers..HAH!!! Soilders first,peace keepers somwhere else down the line. Mans a trained Killer of whomever he would be orderd to kill.He is no different from any other soilder on the planet,and no buttering up or conversions or excuses by anti american groups will alter the fact...If the Irish antiwar crowd wanted any proper credence they would dissacoiate themselves from converted"baby Killer" Horgan.

by Weaselwatch Fri Jul 20, 2007 19:32

!2.7 is his own worst enemy. Sad outburst.

by A. Gunner Fri Jul 20, 2007 23:02

"I am not sure where the above photo came from but the bullet shown in it is a .5 inch or 12.7 mm bullet, used in very large quantities by US armoured vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan. Because the head of the bullet appears to be undamaged after use, it is likely to be an armoured piercing bullet that is likely to contain depleted uranium. Depleted uranium is used to give the bullets and other munitions increased weight or density and hardness. It is also a very convenient way of getting rid of waste radioactive materials from US and British nuclear power stations. When many of the bullets disintegrate after impact they scatter a fine radio active dust which has caused cancer for many thousands of victims from Kuwait and southern Iraq in 199, Bosnia in 1995, to Kosovo 1999, and throughout Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001 and 2003.
It is likely that millions of these depleted Uranium bullets were transported though Shannon airport in US military Hercules C 130 aircraft. Young children have been very susceptible to leukaemia and other cancers caused by depleted uranium in Iraq.

BOLLOCKS, Mr. Horgan, Depleted uranium 12.7, aka .50 Browning rounds have NEVER been Made, and arent in any NATO/US/UK Inventory.

Show the type classification for a .50 DU Round, heres some references;

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

http://www.dtic.mil/dticasd/sbir/sbir032/a044a.pdf

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/

By the way the DshkAs uses 12.7 X 107mm, vs. the 12.7 X 99mm BMG they are not interchangeable, that is a Myth

"The use of such weapons likely to cause widespread deaths and injuries to civilians and non-combatants is contrary to the Geneva Conventions on war.
If you care, speak out now and come to Shannon to protest."

Please show Paragraph and Line of the Geneva Conventions which specifically Ban Rounds which do not exist?

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/genevacon...tions

Much as You may not Like it, things such as DU rounds, Napalm, White Phos are not Banned at all.

by davekey Sat Jul 21, 2007 04:41

Check out this link, Bush's new directive against the anti-war movement:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6377

by Dub in Briz Vegas Sun Jul 22, 2007 00:24 Brisbane, Australia

http://sydney.indymedia.org.au

by stav01 Sun Jul 22, 2007 01:58

as a person who has first hand knowledge of many places where the bullet is king and talk is cheap i would realy like to know why people think it is so wrong Ed horgan to take the stand he has over the misuse of many irish instalations including but not exclusively shannon warport

by Dave Hall - None Mon Jul 23, 2007 06:25

"Operationally, DU munitions have been used extensively in
both the Gulf War (Kuwait and Iraq) and in Kosovo, as can be
seen in the maps below. Examples of the amount of expenditures
are, for the US Army in the Gulf War: 504 rounds of 105 mm and
9,048 rounds of 120 mm tank ammunition. The British Army fired
88 rounds of 120 mm tank ammunition. US Air Force A-10 aircraft
fired 783,514 rounds of 30 mm DU ammunition and US Marine
Corps AV-8B aircraft fired 67,436 rounds of 25 mm DU. In Kosovo,
the US Air Force A-10s fired over 31,000 rounds of 30 mm DU
ammunition. U.S. sniper and special forces teams had 7.62 mm and
12.7 mm (.50 cal) DU ammunition, although expenditures are not
readily available. Overall, some 300 tonnes of DU munitions were
fired in the Gulf War and in excess of 9 tonnes in Kosovo.12Afurther
10,800 DU rounds were fired around Sarajavo during the
NATO air campaign in Bosnia in 1994-1995.13"

Canadian Military Journal.

P.s Soldier is spelt S-O-L-D-I-E-R not Soilder

by Rick James Thu Aug 02, 2007 19:09

Ed Horgan and Conor Cregan are possilbly the biggest pair of bell-ends i have ever come across in my life!It seems to me this site is about free speech?BULLSHIT!!You put something up that either of these two crackwhores dont agree with and its straight down your throat they jump.I for one do not support the war in iraq or George W, and yet i would not have any interest in supportin this antiwar movement as they dont have a clue what there talking about!!I know for a fact(aviation enthusiast) that the C-5 Galaxy was brought in with a spare engine and support equipment for the broke C-130.first of all the equipment was too large to fit in any commercial freight carrier e.g DHL and second why would they contract out someone like DHL for this operation when they have aircraft like the C-5 in there fleet who can do the job and save money as they are operating the aircraft instead of paying some operator a fortune to do a job they can easily do themselves??
So next time ed and conor before yee go off on one of your many bullshit rants get your facts right!!
Ed you for one were in the army for many years and then when you retired and realised you were lost without it and couldnt get back in you decide you'll go against war all of a sudden?You my friend have some serious issues.