We are now Living in a Police State- Last Night's Dail Vote on Mc Dowell's Law.

by C Murray Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:01

Extending the Admissability of Hearsay Evidence, Criminal Justice Overhaul:-

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/79206

Mc Dowell's Law:-
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/81005

There is no press release on Http://www.justice.ie

The Taniaste has agreed debate after the Easter Recess but the vote has gone though the
Oireachtas, stage one (unamended) and will now go to the Senate.

The Tanaiste had (if you read the links) attempted to bring this law in under two
titles and used it to 'Stop Gangland Crime'- a Garda can under this law,
assume the guilt of a suspect and bring circumstantial evidence to bear on his/her
decision.

Meantime the Prisons are the worst in the EU with slopping out and cuts to rehab.
Suicides.
Murder.
Inadequate education programmes.
no conjugal rights.
no supports after prsion which feeds into the high suicide rate.

by Rev Malcolm X - Church of Marx Wed Apr 25, 2007 13:39

should it surprise us of the half wit brain, dead idea scheme which he has.
anything to stay in power with knee jerk reactions. it is up to people to damage the P.D Fine Gael and Labour in the elections this year. hopefully we would see the back of them.

by Seán Ryan Wed Apr 25, 2007 15:01

This is an absolute disgrace.

The two foundations of justice are that it is the prosectution's burden to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and that the accused be not compelled to aid the prosecution in finding a guilty verdict.

What if a suspect is interviewed and spends the duration of the interview speaking in Pig Latin?

Can this now be used to infer guilt?

According to the new legislation it can.

Take this a step further. Can it now be taken that any statement made that the Gardai feel will not help secure a conviction be used in a negative fashion against the accused to secure the very same conviction anyway?

Fuck McDowell. McDowell may have gotten this obscenity through the swamp of horseshite that inhabits the Dail. However, I doubt that this overt act of fascism will survive once it is tested in the courts. It would upset the delicate cash balance that the legal professionals have worked hard to achieve and they won't go hungry for any jumped fucker in the Dail.

I'm sure the Gardai will be delighted however. They've long been accustomed to scratching their arses rather than investigating crimes, relying on hearsay (witness statements) as opposed to actual physical evidence. Up until now (even though the Gardai ignore this) hearsay evidence had no place in a court other than in bail hearings.

by Luke Wed Apr 25, 2007 15:48

It is telling that authoritarians are so fond of the quotation "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance", ignorant of its libertarian plea to be wary of the powers of the State.

Unmasked

by iosaf Wed Apr 25, 2007 16:53

He loves that. He stops you smoking and feels really statesman like when other states copy him. He snuggles into his pillow at night safe in the knowledge that he and not the peak in global tobacco production brought about a shift in market economics.
I favour a "disambiguation" based approach when forced to speak of something I have no wish to do. It's not as galling as pig latin (which Sean touches on) but really works well. Alas, it's not that easy to teach other people. "Disambiguation technique" means only saying things which are ambivalent and require further definition or endlessly going through the same question. At its most basic level it is of course very political - answering questions with questions - obfuscation being the word. Although I somehow doubt many of us or our awe-inspiring criminal class are really of the calibre of Gotham City's Riddler. Perhaps tellingly only the grafting and corrupt politicians will have honed that skill. Incidently the supercriminal (or the nearest Ireland breeds to the smallest of the magnate section of EU industry and commerce) are very very bad at saying nothing. IT's not in the nature - whih shows the whole thing up as a terrible waste of time and effort. "typically big swinging mickey".

I reckon whoever commented above that this law hasn't been tested yet and would probably fall at the hurdle of courts is right. At end it's more a psychological weapon than anything else. But being in far far away land - I'm keen to see who is going to try and copy McDowell in this. Ireland is as we all know a "portal" between worlds and systems of democratic values. His smoking ban came from the other side of the Atlantic to be seized upon by various EU states as a proof that even in the age of effete tinkering with economic indicators they can still "shape society". That of course was till the Spanish with usual skill made a complete mockery of it. OF course cigs are banned except of course where cig smokers in the majority. The cig ban over here created even smokier "smoking places" and simply forced us to buy packets of 20 instead of 10. Result :- "I buy more smokes now & when I go out I hang out in smokier places".

link to the oireachtas pdf files
http://oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=7236

Don't spin this as factual "fascism" - even though it is. The word and its voter reception or influence are at a low at the moment till at least early June. Spin it as something else. Go through the legislation and imagine a problem in its application. I did this with his disastrous legislation on the age of consent last year - the problem was the "16th birthday party scenario". You'll quickly think a problem - highlight it before it goes to court or the Dail goes to recess. If you don't get it in ten days - I'll do it for you ;-)
Oh Michael - you really are the worst minister of Justice our state has ever had. & what is so annoying is how terribly well-intentioned you are. What will we do with you?

by Dismayed Wed Apr 25, 2007 18:24

Absolutely disgraceful flouting of fundamental rights here,what has to be done now to bring the changes to full effect?
Shame on FG and Labour for sitting on the fence,would expect it from FG but OLabour jsut keep on unpleasantly surprising me...
Shame!

by Captain Willard Wed Apr 25, 2007 19:08

The Dawn Raid was disclosed with a front page story in the North County Leader (Swords, Co. Dublin) 24th April, 2007.

It was a lightning raid last Wednesday by 30 Gardai and their gruesome swat gear. Apparently, in spite of the lightning risk, the Garda helicopter also swooped.This was a hard hitting rapid response to an illegal halting site where the storm troopers triumphantly seized a NUMBER OF VEHICLES.

This spectacular and steely display of state security might was mounted because the Travellers involved treacherously applied to the High Court for an injunction to halt their eviction!!!!!

The star of the Lightning Raid was a well connected scion of the McDowell junta. He managed to elude burly and abusive thugs who discovered him in the act of filming their smoky fire. Curiously, the ever vigilant and popular Senator apparently canvassing ALONE for the upcoming election had no difficulty arranging for the Minister of Justice to take damn serious attention of the ghastly smoke afflicting his community. Indeed, the gist was immediately apparent and Mr. McDowell- alarmed -" has his finger on the pulse of this issue"

Sternly, the Senator has vowed " I won't rest until the community is safe". Well, unless the helicopter crashs next time.

Thanks to the North County Leader..... class journalism should not ignore the Fawlty factor.

Perhaps, if the Senator is elected, the PDs will make him Minister for Smoke.

History teaches that once a taste for swooping on marginalised groups shows electoral results everyone needs to mind their back.

by Dub Wed Apr 25, 2007 19:30

FG support this Bill. In fact they would like to make it harsher. Labour abstained as if it's delayed in Seanad in coming days it'll be back to them to push through when they are in government with FF and/or FG. If the 'radicals' in Labour Youth are serious they would withdraw canvassing and other activities in the coming month. Labour Youth 'radicals' can prove themseleves by leaving Labour and refuse to elect Kenny/ re-elect Ahern. Labour Youth will be on the doorsteps calling for a transfer vote for Fine Gael and they will distribute leaflets calling for that.

by Orange Flyer Wed Apr 25, 2007 20:34

There is to be a meeting in the Rathmines Town hall @ 11am
on Saturday for the residents of the area.

all general election candidates will be in attendance:-

Minister Mc Dowell (present Tanaiste)
Gormley.
Doolin.
Quinn.
Frehill.
Andrews.
O Callaghan.

btw- when O Callaghan was asked 'to drop the Tanaiste' cos of bad legislation
he responded 'I am only seeking a vote for FF- really. (?)

Maybe the Td's could 'bone up' on EU law until the 28th April.

by W. Finnerty. Wed Apr 25, 2007 21:10

Although I'm not a lawyer, it's nevertheless always been my understanding that all three of the main organs of government - Legislature, Judicial and Executive that is - each have a MOST important duty, under the terms of Bunreacht na hEireann (the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland), to ensure that each one of the three very carefully watches itself, and the other two, for the purpose of making sure that no legislation is produced which violates Bunreacht na hEireann.

As some readers will already know, this very important and most basic of "republican and democratic" principles, which is deeply embedded in several other modern constitutions apart from Bunreacht na hEireann, is often referred to by names such as the "tripartite separation of powers doctrine".

Using the words of Dublin based barrister and law-lecturer Brian Doolan (from his book titled "Principles of Irish Law", on Page 11 of the Fifth Edition), the core expectation of abiding by the tripartite separation of powers doctrine is that the "Abuse of power by one can be checked by the others, and tyranny, hopefully, is prevented".

Closely connected with all this, an article on Page 2 of the March 29th 2007 edition of Irish Independent, ends with the following statement: "The right to silence, it adds, has been recognised as being protected under the Constitution." The "it" in the particular sentence referred to here is: "A letter signed by a phalanx of of senior lawyers, including more than a dozen senior council, (which) was delivered by hand to Mr Mc Dowell yesterday afternoon".

As I see things, there's not much hope of "tyranny being prevented" if, as several media reports today suggest, dozens of Fine Gael and Labour TDs sat back and ABSTAINED from voting yesterday, while unconstitutional legislation was being manufactured right in front of their noses: by a deluded (and possibly seriously insane?) Minister for Justice.

Now I find myself wondering what state of mind their leaders (i.e. Mr Kenny TD and Mr Rabbitte TD) must be in?

by pleased Thu Apr 26, 2007 14:20

With all the crime and violence engulfing this country from one end to the other I'm glad that the government are getting off there arse and introducing laws to crack down on criminal gang who are thumbing their nose at civilised people.

I can only hope that the laws are enforced by a properly funded police force and that this is not an electoral stunt.

The government are going to claim the laws demonstrate their tough attitude.

The opposition are going to claim that their abstension from the vote demonstrate they are not rushing in legislation in a knee jerk fashion.

Both sides are full of it.

We as a society need to take these organised gangs apart and stop pussy footing about.

by Auld Dubliner Thu Apr 26, 2007 14:38

"crack down on criminal gang who are thumbing their nose at civilised people"

Yes, indeed. Maybe we could start by cracking down on Fianna Fail. They have made a fortune thumbing their nose at civilised people.

by chara Thu Apr 26, 2007 14:56

All the stuff that Emperor Blair does, or tries to do, in UK, gets tried in Ireland too. What happened to Irish Independence?

by anon Thu Apr 26, 2007 15:56

BTW, what does DSE mean?

by ciao Thu Apr 26, 2007 16:27

I'd just like to say I lost my job exactly two hours ago. It's a fact which with very rude humour dropped into my world where it will remain till I get another job. I live in a "precarious state". If I don't replace the job that I was just told not to goto ever again exactly 2 hours ago - I will dwell in "penury".

Precarity and Penury are for the Europeans in a widely generalised sense more important than Security and Tyranny. But I don't get to vote for people who just lose their jobs & all it means exactly two hours ago. Good thing I don't vote. But I do support candidates. Don't we all? Big time Low Income can't afford a right to slience creative mayday. that's who we are. I'll be signing off now for a while what with my perspective on mayday and precarity, penury, tyranny and security coming from a non-signing on land. But we're not embarrassed about the lack of electronic voting machines or morals.

Now whilst I go look for a job I solemnly pledge - that if 166 people agree to do likewise with other TD's- I will send a TD a copy of a "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time: by Mark Hadden". It will be the beginning of their reading list. Obviously one TD will get 2 copies. Let's see if they're honest enough to send it back.

c.u. a.s.a.p.:.

by DSE Thu Apr 26, 2007 16:28

Dublin South East- The constituency Of the aforementioned TD's (and Tanaiste)
who will be seeking mandate at the next election.

Things at issue:

1. Dartmouth Square (public access rights)
2. The closure of St Luke's Hospital.
3. The Poolbeg incinerator.

The Politicos will be answering questions for the assembled enfranchised.

by C Murray Thu Apr 26, 2007 17:17

I put a comment up this morning that the reading list for Junior certs is to be
changed or adapted and may include some 'challenging' works by the
daughter of the present Taoiseach.

A couple of hours later a man came to my door with a parcel of books.

Minister Mc Dowell is handing out free copies of 'How the PD's Changed Ireland'
to members of the electorate in D.S.E. I told him that I did not do fantasy and handed
the book back.

I will send the junior cert students well thumbed copy of 'The Curious incident of the Dog
in the Nighttime' to Mc Dowell's office in return.

We have had one of the best state education systems in europe and in the
few years where we face privatisation, bad prisons; and a justice system that
could lock away people with learning disabilities or 'differentness' we should
be supporting the choices of the kids who would choose Harry Potter, Mark
Haddon, Yeats and etc. not this stupidity and removal of access to learning
materials forced on the kids by an educational industry dedicated to dumbing down.

# I will send on the copy by Post-

by amateur lawyer Thu Apr 26, 2007 17:45

A barrister friend who's on the extreme left wing of the law community (ok, not much competition for that title!) is quite dismayed at the Bill. In her view, it is very cleverly drafted and goes just about as far as can be gone while still remaining constitutional. McDowell has taken account of previous Irish and European Court of Human Rights decisions in regard to evidence issues. For instance, any legislation that made it an offence not to answer a question or not to give evidence would be clearly unconstitutional. The EHCR ruled against a section of the Offences Against the State Act on that basis. It would also be clearly unconstitutional to specify that such a refusal would constitute conclusive evidence of guilt. But the bill stops just short of that in "allowing" an adverse inference to be drawn from such a refusal while not "requiring" an adverse inference to be drawn. This has been upheld by the EHCR and operates in many European countries although not generally in "common law" jurisdictions. The Courts will not strike this bill down.

Know your enemy. Don't underestimate him.

by C Murray Thu Apr 26, 2007 18:29

Why the abstention by two parties of the Rainbow?

Do they support civil liberties infringements?

The detention period is being extended to seven days.
The data base for dna is being extended.
The right to silence is being done away with.
The gardai have the right to include hearsay evidence.

Sf and The Greens and some independents opposed this bill.
FG and Labour abstained.

This is a repeat performance of June the second where a bill that infringes our
liberties has been brought before the houses of the Oireachtas on a media led campaign.

The Irish times this morning had the crime figures but DRCC has said that rape
and sexual violence is up but people are not reporting it anymore.

The basic infrastructure regarding cases on these issues is not in place from
The upkeep of rape trauma centres, funding of forensic nurses, the treatment of
the victim.

It is simply not good enough to introduce a bill that infringes and erodes
human rights in a system that has one of the worst records on Psych and
violence in the prisons in europe.

by Barry - 32 csm Thu Apr 26, 2007 19:41

Since 1998 the Special criminal court has been convicting people , republicans , for membership of an illegal organisation with no other evidence needed than the OPINION of a garda superintendant in what was supposed to be a temporary measure. The court has a 100% conviction rate in such cases . But as nobody cared about Fianna FAIL and the PDs introducing internemnt for people with a political opinion they dont like its unsurprising to see them bring in similar measures to be used against the population as a whole . Bit late complainging now when much more draconian legislation has been used on a regular basis for the last 9 years .
In time Garda opinion convictions will seep into the criminal justice system for non political cases just as this measure has .

by C Murray Thu Apr 26, 2007 20:36

and May I add that the issue of arrest and detention of eco-activists from such campaigns
as the Glen of the Downs went largely spun (by the media) and unnoticed by a
large section of the population for quite a while.

Before Rossport 16 eco-activists were imprisoned under injunctions , there were
breaches of the convention of Vienna involved. The media classed these people
as 'eco-warriors' and the left with honorable exceptions largely ignored the issue.

It is ten years now since the unlawful imprisonments in that campaign in this
State. I was there, but then again very few of the so-called left were, indeed apart
from a few solidarity actions, there were few lining up at the prisons to help
with legal stuff.

Things get boxed up and hived off and unless people start speaking up
it will continue to happen. In terms of legislation, btw, the injunction signed
by the council and the multi still are the prefferred method of throwing away the
key- until the SIB is fully enacted.

This was underlined at the top of the article. the whips casually amend and deal
with the shopping list but very few of our politicians have the political courage
to inform us how these malignant laws will effect us or to use their Dail
Privilege to do anything about it.

by C Murray Thu Apr 26, 2007 20:39

it is ten years since the campaign begun.

and not ten years since the imprisonments.

(sorry about that one).

by Me - We the People Fri Apr 27, 2007 07:43

I do not know who or what gives Mc Dowell , HIS right to silence.

I posted him 14 registered Letters and he never answered one of them.

by Bukharin Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:18

Given your anti-choice, anti RAR etc comments on Indymedia I doubt if anyone would be inclined to answer you via post. Incredibly I suddenly feel some sympathy for McDowell.

by Captain Willard Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:06

The thread of the comments on the new Criminal Justice Bill are convincingly negative. I suppose we should not be suprised to find that a logical and coherent argument in support of this law is lacking.

The decision to abstain by the "opposition" is truly and deeply ironic when that silence will disable such a privilege in the matter of a citizen's position before the law.

Not so long ago the public in Ireland were given a convincing hint of a trend that opposed the tradition known as rule of law. This was the naming of Frank Connolly as a threat to the security of the state. It was an act of unadulterated extra-judicial juntaism.

The DPP is by law ..... the rule of law..... responsible for taking legal prosecutions before the courts - where the evidence LEADS to such a decision. It follows, therefore, when they could not build a prosecution that the evidence was lacking or tainted or unreliable........................

When exposing this threat, the Minister demonstrated that the crucial matter of evidence is not his cup of tea. He usurped the judiciary and, therefore, the Constituion, he jack-booted the DPP and he showed his hand.

The Minister obviously possesses the Putinist cheek to say that he is responsible for the security of the state. His character, however, speaks of the sublimated autocrat who shadows democracy.

It might be interesting to get Des O'Malley's opinion on the moral values underlying this Bill?

by C Murray Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:20

The DPP and the Dept of Justice had joint carriage of the ''A'' and ''CC' cases last May.

The 1935 legislation collapsed after a Ms Justice Mary Laffoy order .
Since June 2nd last year when emergency legislation was forced
through two houses of the Oireachtas and the president's office
under a media-led campaign, the DPP has had to re-prosecute
all the unlawful carnal knowledge cases under the new legislation which
is fundamentally flawed.

It is open to Constitutional and EU challenge due to section 5 which every single
political party in the oireachtas voted for [except Joe Higgins]

The ombudsman for children requested excision of section 5.

Thus we are in a situation where the dpp re-prosecuted the cases of
unlawful carnal knowledge of minors -that did not make the media
and where gun-crime is used as an excuse to do away with fundamental rights.

Instead of addressing the societal problems, the prison infrastructure and
the inadequate educational system -we get US style fear messages and
media manipulation to create and sustain erosion of rights.

The June 2nd law is avalable in government publications.
The media coverage is available through archives.
my links on the legislation are on the newswire.

when Mc Dowell asks the media to jump- what do they say?

by Me - We the People Fri Apr 27, 2007 18:19

Dear Bukhrain. Would you be so kind and explain to me the meaning of your comment about anti rar ,anti choice as I do not understand.

by Bukharin Fri Apr 27, 2007 18:49

Someone posting as "Me" on another thread attacked AFA, RAR and Pro Choice groups.

by Captain Willard Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:48

A few days ago C. Murray mentioned the Official PD screed entitled: Breaking the Mould.

Not only is this book free its contents are free with the facts.

The Table of Contents does not recognise two facts.

The first fact would be listed as the Redress Board (Disgraceful Stroke) Act. The government devised this legislation when the current PD leader was Attorney General. It imposes a gag order that, according to the BBC NI, is more authoritarian than anything imposed against Republicans. When the indemnity deal was done the super-vigilant McDowell was caught having his nails done. The ones he used to scale that legendary lamp post?

This bit of scuple defying governance.... rather more costly than promised..... will be back to haunt those who gave it legs.

The Table of Contents has no entry for Brian Curtin. When it comes to landing credible political candidates the PDs manage to scrape some cavernous and mystifying barrels.

However, on page 237 the author of Breaking the Mould refers to the issue of Decentralisation.

A "half-baked and expensive scheme" with the " potential to wreak havoc". The PDs, according to their authoritive correspondent "opted for the worst of both worlds". Not just opted, as we know, they took a front seat in charge of the half-baked scheme. Minister Parlon is at the wheel and we have gotten great value from his progressive stewardship. On the 10th of January, 2007, top of page one of the Property Section, Jack Fagan of the Irish Times reported that the State take-up of office space rose rapidly in .......DUBLIN. He revealed that the state accounted for 16.4 per cent of 2006 total office take-up in Dublin compared to 5 per cent in 2005. The PD Minister in charge of this is either deleriously incompetent or a most efficient scoundrel.

by C Murray Sat May 05, 2007 11:24

The Criminal Justice Bill 2007 , [detailed above and in links] has been referred to the
Council Of State by Mary Mac Aleese because of questions regarding its constitutionality.

The meeting is due to be held early next week, possibly Tuesday.

by Me - We the People. Wed May 09, 2007 17:59

Right. Ta 4 dat bukharin. I am not the other me as refered to. I post as Me - We the People.