Sunni / Shia get-together – is this a beginning of the end or an end of the beginning?

by MichaelY - iawm Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:06

Because they want to stop us from being active.

Preparations for the iawm/PANA/NGO Alliance/Labour Youth/Sinn Fein picket on the Fianna Fail Ard Fheis continue. March 24th - 2pm - City West.

For a very interesting U-tube video on the US anti-war movement go to:
http://7d.blogs.com/stuckinvt/2007/03/it_isnt_every_d.html

Picket poster

by wise up - (none - no gods, no masters) Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:22

Blair isnt being pushed out by activists - he's been in Iraq for 3 years now and he's only stepping down because he's been in the job for so long. He won an election recently, as did John Howard. Bush isnt leaving for another year and three quarters, you've just been duped into thinking that because there's so much hype already around who's going to replace him.

Even if these people were replaced, there'll always be other war-mongerers to replace them, either in their own country or from others.

And as for Bertie, if he does get turfed out (wont happen I think, but anyway), what difference does it make? Enda Kenny and Pat Rabbitte have no interest in kicking the US troops out of Shannon. I remember hearing about the LY chairperson from Corduff asking Rabbitte about it at a conference, Rabbitte squirmed uncomfortably and dodged it, Labour have no interest in ending the stopover either so dont get your hopes up too much if FF do lose. As if FG would bend to the Greens in a 3 party coalition either.

If 100,000 people could march on the streets of Dublin and be ignored, then you can bet FF will not be worried about maybe a few hundred people at most showing up at their Ard Fheis.

by MichaelY - iawm Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:37

My good wise friend - the points you make about Blair and Bush and our own Bertie are valid up to a point.......they do demonstrate, however, the democratic d e f i c i t in countries that pride themselves about their participatory and democratic cultures.....the majority of people in Britain, 70% of US citizens and a majority here, north and south, are against the war. The 'leaders' however are stuck in their position of power!!
The second issue, of course, that comes up from your comments, is that these are precisely the States / governments that are trying to 'export' their governmental system to the East......
Finally, if your comments are to be taken literally, those of us who have decided to continue our struggle, those of us who have dreams of a better peaceful world....what should we be doing? Watch TV, do our shopping, clap our rugby team, and get pissed in the evening?

As I said above, they tell us activism does not work because they want to stop us from being active.

As for FF, we know there are many many local FF activists, including Councillors and a few TDs who are not particularly happy....let them take a stance, let the Greens put their action where their talk is....and watch it happen my friend. Labour Youth have decided to join us - does that mean something?

by Jo Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:51

Wise up.
Activitists are the ethical police force of any society and indeed for the world.
Through them the dirty wheelings and dealings of the state, politicians, police, civil service or the military get exposed.
Through them people can really see what goes on in places like Iraq.
Thanks to activists the truth comes out. The media report the stories. But activists alert the media and bring peoples' attention to the truth.
If it was not for activists then most of the crap that goes on in the world would not even get noticed let alone sorted out.
Think your the one that needs to wise up Wise up.

by Anti-war Tue Mar 06, 2007 13:13

"Agreements" between middle eastern dictators will do little to solve the problems of Iraq. It will have little impact on the sectarian conflict that has engulfed Iraq. That can only be resolved by independent united action by the Iraqi people against the occupation and the sectarian political elites that are vying for control of Iraq's resources. The dictators who control Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq are part of the problem not the solution.
I am unsure why the IAWM put this posting here. Are they or the individual who posted implying that this is a positive development?

by Pushkin Tue Mar 06, 2007 13:16

This is the meeting of two barbarians. Both of them have the blood of many trade unionists, democracy activists, socialists, women and gays on their hands. I look forward to the day that both of these dictators are overthrown and brought to justice for their crimes against humanity.

It is shameful that some here have illusions if not in the Saudi Regime then in the Iranian Islamo-Fascist Dictatorship. Neither of them care anything for the Palestinian People. They just want to spread their warped fundametalist brands of Islam which have no basis in the Quran.

by wisened up Tue Mar 06, 2007 14:34

You're missing my point. MichaelY seems to be dreaming in some fantasy land about a majority on this island being 'against the war'. Maybe they are - but what of it? Is it actually going to translate into something concrete? Are half the nation going to turn out at the protest, or vote for parties (like the Greens or SP) who explicitly say they want the US troops out of Shannon? LIke fuck they are. Watch this space in a few months time and then I'll say I told you so: FF, FG, Lab & PD will all get more than 80% of the vote combined between them, so MichaelY's assertions are meaningless in the real world. No disrespect to him but his optimism is blind - he was making similar musings before the US elections a couple of months ago as being a seismic shift against Bush, yet they dont even have the spine to cut the funding. All bullshit. Same as the above nonsense that somehow the changing of the guard in this country will make the slightest bit of difference.

"Activists are the ethical police force of the world." Give me strength. Half of them have their head in the clouds, eternally believing that the revolution is "just around the corner" (cf the end of the previous paragraph). Check out the history books - the closest thing you could call a revolution happening in this part of the world was in Paris in 1968, nearly 40 years ago. Which, as usual, was fucked over by the communists and trotskyists. If the world was run by the likes of 'professional' activists, we'd be fucked - there'd be eternal squabbling over tactics, splits, never ending flame wars on bulletin boards, and nothing would ever get done. Believe it.

by MichaelY - iawm Tue Mar 06, 2007 15:33

One of the earlier questions of why I (we) put this post up has been fully answered : in order to, good friends, develop a debate. And a debate has started.

A few threads to take up: Is the two dictators meeting a good thing asks one post.....is that why I put it up....no, it's neither a good thing nor a bad thing....it's a political development, an unexpected development, a development that sheds a bit of light on the re-arrangements taking place in US policy and the response of the various States in the region to it....you could even ask whether the fact that Al-Maliki is hosting the Baghdad Conference next Saturday is a bad or a good thing....it's neither!! It's a reflection that the Crusaders are losing the war, those of the Iraqi people who are fighting against the aggressors, that Resistance that does not meet all the of the atavistic and anarchist criteria of class and political purity is pushing imperialism to the limit. It reminds me of some arguments I had with anarchist comrades re:the Vietnamese Resistance a few years back.....more than a few in fact...lol......And to clarify a red herring....nobody in the iawm, in the anti-war mnovement at large, or the Irish Left that I know, thinks that either the feudal rulers of Saudi or the religious zealots of Iran are the answer to the problems of the people in the region.

As to the 'wisened' poster....yes my friend, the recent Republican defeat in the mid-term elections has meant an awful lot for the anti-war movement in the US. And the political elites too. Check the statements by Pelosi, by the Dem hopefuls....check the polls...is Bush gone? No, he's still there.....Where is Rumsfeld? Is Cheney on the way? And who is the new guy they have stuck next to Condolezza? Why is he opposing the 'surge'?

To argue that nothing has changed is to really look at the pyramid upside down......this is what was argued about Aznar, then about Berlusconi, and foreign policy and the anti-war movement, with its 100,000 plus demonstrators in Vicenza, nearly brought that other crusader-to-be Prodi down a few days ago!! And it split the renovated ex-Stalinists right down! As activists, we have to ground our analysis, yes there I agree, and we can't put our trust in elections on their own either, but we also have to be optimistic....we have to believe in the power of ordinary people to change the world, to even move mountains as a wise old maoist used to say. Or was it Mao himself?