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Erris is Now A Police State, Report Phoned in from Ballinaboy

category mayo | environment | feature author Tuesday October 03, 2006 17:20author by . - Rossport Solidarity Camp Report this post to the editors

But the mood amongst protestors is resilient and solidarity protests are being organised.

featured image
First Protester Injured By Cops

Late Monday saw a call out from Shell to Sea as rumours circulated that the state was ready to force the construction workers through the blockade at Ballinaboy. At 3.30 a.m. Tuesday morning there was a large amount of police activity with roadblocks being set up and then a woman is injured as the guards insist on forcing the entry of the security staff (who have been previously allowed onto the site without confrontation). At 6.30 a.m. the order goes out to 'Send in the Carrying Squad' and protestors are carried away from the blockade - with one man receiving a broken finger.

By 8 a.m. it was obvious that the decision had been made to re-take Ballinaboy for Shell on the same day that gas prices rise 30% and the Taoiseach is appearing in the Dail over his loans / gifts / whatever your having yourself. According to the guards they deployed 170 directly at Ballinaboy with riot police borught up from Cork on standby. But the mood amongst protestors is resilient and solidarity protests are being organised.

More Coverage:Galway protest at 6pm outside Mill street garda station, Tuesday 2nd Report and pics | Protest outside Shell HQ Lwr. Leeson st. Dublin, at 1 pm Wednesday | Cork Protest Wed. 4th October, 8:30am, Anglesea Garda Station. | Mainstream media claims Shell to Sea is infiltrated by IRA | Audio Updatefrom John Monaghan

Updates: Tuesday Full Account and Photos: | Thursday 5th: More Action in Mayo

Monday:
Large police presence in Belmullet, they blocked off one small street to hold a private meeting with Shell. One local activist and Indy media contributor had his camera taken by the police during this event.Full details to follow.
At 11 pm: the Shell to Sea trailer picket H.Q. was in place at the refinery gates. From midnight some participants in Rossport Solidarity Camp joined the picket.

Tuesday:
3.30 am to 4.00 am:
Police roadblocks were put up on both sides of the refinery site, and at gate 2 into it. The roadblocks were 1 km away from the main gates. People parked their cars at the gates and walked to the picket.
4.30 am: Carey plant hire is offloading crowd control barriers at the main gate.
4.50 am: Garda assembling barriers.
5.00 am: The Garda tow off people’s vehicles, citing a Traffic act.
5.05 am: Picket stands in front of gate, about 70 people and 170 cops, at some stage in time, or perhaps on one particular side of the 1 km cordon, the police began to prevent people from arriving at the picket.
5.15 am: Police are still moving cars, and have established a barrier cordon on both sides of the main gate.
5.20 am Security arrive - this is a normal shift change and security and a couple of other maintenance workers are normally allowed through the picket and onto the site. Nonetheless Garda insist on forcing security in, despite the fact the picket wasn’t stopping them and never stops them, they aggressively push people out of the way and after a choking one woman is hospitalised. (ambulance arrives at 6.20 a.m.)
6.35 am: Cop with megaphone asks that old people, children and females move to the back of the picket as there may be confrontation. The people sit down and recite the rosary in Gaelic.
6.35 am - 7.05 am: Order ’send in the carrying squad’ is given. Four cops per person pick people up or drag them, into cordoned off pens on either side of the main gate. One man has his finger broken during this. The police tow away more cars. So at this stage, and this has continued up to now, people are being held, not under arrest, in police pens behind barriers on either side of the main gate.
7.45 am: John Egan, Shell pr and former BBC journalist in Nigeria, is standing beside the Nigerian memorial opposite the main gate observing the scene. Mini-buses and cars containing scab labour are driven into the site through the main gate.
8. 00 am: Large trucks arrive, flatbeds with diggers and also tippers carrying gravel.
8.30 am: Some police withdrawals.
8.45 am: 3 flatbeds leave the site after making delivery.
Full report and photos to follow, stay tuned to Indymedia.ie...

Related Link: http://www.struggle.ws/rsc

star_wars_shell_1.jpg

author by Disgusted - Nonepublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:52Report this post to the editors

What right have you to label men trying to go to work as " scab labour" ?

author by S2S - Shell to Seapublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:01Report this post to the editors

Latest statements + background info online at http://www.shelltosea.com

Related Link: http://www.shelltosea.com
author by Terrypublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:07Report this post to the editors

The right of a user of the English language the term refering to someone who crosses a picket line.
See:
http://ca.geocities.com/local343/scab.html

author by Terrypublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:08Report this post to the editors

who obviously are always 'men trying to get to work'.

author by Elizabethpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:11Report this post to the editors



You have to give the garda your name and address.
They will probably pick named people off through injunction.
The best way to test the injunction to is reverse it by testing it in court, that way
the whole issue can be made public in the media.
if the injunction asks for or impedes the right of protest, you know what happens:
the contempt order.
This is how they reduce the protestors and frighten people.

Have a good solicitor/legal representative.
The gardai have no right to confiscate media equipment.
Women , if hassled by gardai do not have to submit to strip search in the event of
pregnancy/recent birth or menstruation.
you do not have to say anything to a garda apart from your name and address.
They know who you are because they have been observing and photographing you.

Please be careful- solidarity.

it helps if people can agree between themselves beforehand who will test the injunction
and take on the contempt order.

How dare they attempt to divide community in such a manner.

author by Brianpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:21Report this post to the editors

There is no question Terry but that the whole country is is united behind u in Rossport. I genuinely think that the whole community there has inspired a nation. So hopefully it can be kept going somehow ....
btw notice the news management? a week ago bertie had picked this day as D-day for his statement, its all very coincidental isnt it? I wonder how much all that was real ?..just wondering...

author by S2Spublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:24Report this post to the editors

Police numbers reduced to around 50.

Reports emerging about agressive police force (to make way for Shell/Statoil), police choking of a young local woman (late teens/early twenties...), hospitalised, in shock...

Also one person with broken finger.

Everything being documented/recorded.... further reports on their way....

Related Link: http://www.shelltosea.com
author by Shanepublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:43Report this post to the editors

In light of this weeks events in Rossport there will be a number of solidarity actions in Galway this week.

This evening (Tuesday) at 6pm there will be a protest at Mill street Garda station in response to the brutal actions of the Gardai in Erris.
On Wednesday the weekly shell to sea meeting will take place in Java's cafe on abbeygate street at 7pm. If you are interested in getting involved in the campaign please come along.
On Thursday the head of Shell Ireland Andy Pyle will be addressing the Engineering department in NUIG at 6pm he will be discussing 'technical aspects of the Corrib gas field'.
Then on friday at 6pm there will be a a picket of the Shell station in Westside.
If you are in Galway I hope to see you at at least one of these events.

Related Link: http://www.shelltosea.com
author by Clarepublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:15author address DublinReport this post to the editors

Good work so far everyone in Rossport/Ballinaboy. Remember there are countless people who can't make it along to Mayo but support you fully. We'll do what we can from where we are. Take care of each other.

author by Wandering Shaughlinpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:27Report this post to the editors

Now it is armed robbery. They're using force to build the terminal to take the oil and gas that they haven't paid us for, only paying 'the usual method' to the FF crooks.

author by Starstruckpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:37Report this post to the editors

Actions being planned for tomorrow-keep an eye on the events list for more info--
We are with you comrades-keep up the fight and document it all!

Solidarity is strength!

author by Black Guard Detachment - obviouspublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 13:08Report this post to the editors

Don't panic! The cops and the State have been planning this for a long time. Of course they were going to have success today, but can they keep it up? There's a long way to go ... and can they really put so many cops out for a prolonged period. Wait until they slack off and hit them again with numbers and a blockade. Guerrilla tactics is the way forward.

Also want to suggest that spreading the struggle to other locations - blocking Shell depots etc - is the best way to up the ante. Actions that blockade elsewhere in the country and abroad show solidarity with the blockading tactic itself. The penny will drop with the powers that be that if they use big cop number to pen us down in Rossport, then we can spread the struggle to twenty different places and make havoc there.

BTW, don't agree with the scab description. And shocking about the rosary! The rosary … I mean really!

author by krossie - wsm jack white unit!publication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 13:31Report this post to the editors

Hi would agree with most of the above
(though personally I would think any one who does work under police escort is as close to a scab as makes no difference
- but any way its another argument)

First off Dubs or any one here try to get to the demo tomorrow

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78772

Secondly the point is made very well above. they have to get in and out of that compound for at least a month that presents a lot of chances for disruption

Thirdly Shell and the State have gone utterly over board. There was NO NEED to break fingers, attack the trailer etc - This will rebound right back into their stupid bully boy faces - The reaction starts here!

Krossie

Related Link: http://www.shelltosea.com
author by Claire Gpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 13:45Report this post to the editors

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78773

See Paul Williams's defamation of the protesters here. The media being flooded with these kind of lies. Needs to be countered vigorously.

author by hedgehogpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 14:16Report this post to the editors

Will join in the demo this evening. Solidarity folks. Hang in there

author by Arisepublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 14:50Report this post to the editors

I feel that the locals right to say the rosary should be respected and even encouraged. We are just activists here supporting the local people. We have to respect their culture and means of holding strong. Solidarity is achieved through a feeling of common goals and purpose and this recital can give hope, encouragement and strenght. Please, put your personal religious beliefs aside for the purpose of holding tight to anything that may strenghten the cause at this crucial point. Well done to all and solidarity, I hope to join ye this weekend.

author by chrissiepublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 15:10Report this post to the editors

Keep up the protest people! Defend your homeland! Shell to Sea supporters, do what you can to save Erris from environmental devastation. The struggle continues.
Re. the Rosary, one of the more attractive aspects of the Irish Constitution is its commitment to religious tolerance, but a few people who are 'cool' about Islam, Buddhism or Voodoo may find Christianity too uncool - relax, don't be bothered by the label; what you really believe in is what you DO & what you do it for!
Beir bua!

author by Stevo - Galway Shelltosea, Solidarity Camp?publication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 15:20Report this post to the editors

Was the broken finger Phillip McGrath's thumb?
I was told this morning that he had been taken to hospital. Would've been nasty to happen to anybody but since he is one of the Rossport 5, surely this is SHELL shooting itself in the foot even more so.

I've got my own crisis on my hands thanks to a-hol landlord but I will be outside Mill Street Police station at 6pm. Hope there're gonna be plenty of others there too.
Stevo

author by elizabethpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 15:28Report this post to the editors

this is what the text received on Sunday said.

Dempsey is responsible for this- he is based in Meath.

He has a constituency office there.

The Gardai have been given a four week tour of duty in Rossport- pace yerselves.

author by Updater - s2spublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 15:42Report this post to the editors

SMS in at 2pm saying

"placards held by Guards inside barriers, more removed from picket without warning or reason..."

Main media sources giving lots of coverage to Shell's well oiled PR machine with Garda press office gurus doing backup. A few token (media trained) employees doing nice sound bytes. Not much mention of the poor young local girl that the cops hospitalised.

Too late for this doomed crew though, the Irish Govt, the Gardai and Shell are all disgraced outfits and the Irish public isn't as gullible as back in the day.

The rising is on. This is only the beginning!

Related Link: http://www.shelltosea.com
author by cork shell to seapublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 15:56Report this post to the editors

tomorrow, wednesday 8:30am solidarity picket outside anglesea st garda station to protest at garda violence in bellanaboy
also meeting tomorrow night at 8pm caz 61 barrack street cork

author by galwaypublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 16:20Report this post to the editors

A girl was hospitalised by the gardai? I guarantee you that if that is true and you contacted one of the papers, they'd cover it.

last year, during the protests, a man was hit by a shell truck and one of the papers did a two page spread leading with that.

if the gardai hospitalised a girl, the media would jump on it. but of course, as always, the protesters are going way over the top - i assume.

author by Reporter - Shell to Seapublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 17:02Report this post to the editors

1 megabyte audio-update (.wav file) from John Monaghan at the protest site

http://www.corribsos.com/uploads/031006report.wav

Related Link: http://www.shelltosea.com
author by Noise Hackerpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 17:48Report this post to the editors

.

“Careful now. down with that sort of thing”
“Careful now. down with that sort of thing”

author by eeekkkkkpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 18:46Report this post to the editors

Observe their sudden emergence at times of stress in 'flocks' or 'herds': http://www.google.ie/search?q=flying+pig-human&hl=en&lr...ter=0

author by Johnpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 19:41Report this post to the editors

Can someone confirm where Carey Plant Hire are from? There are several companies of that name (unrelated).

author by Terrypublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 20:15Report this post to the editors

The Carey in question is from Bangor - that is Bangor, County Mayo, not county Down (BBC Northern Ireland once rather excitedly contacted us about the protest against Shell we were organising in Down).
Big time supporter of the project. One of only 3 or 4 people locally who speak out in its favour, i.e. in the media.
Employs about ten people (according to Mayo News). Drives past the picket every so often gesticulating wildly.
Probably being used by Shell as a provocation as well as to give the rather faint illusion of local participation.
A provocation in that he keeps rather unusual working times - e.g. he was skulking about the Rossport compound at about 10pm on a Friday night, and obviously having him drop the crowd control barriers was also a provocation.
I should imagine Shell's hope is someone clouts a person whom they would like people to regard as a traitor.
He would be personally known to many Shell to Sea activists, in fact he was Willie Corduff's first employer.
On a similar theme they employ John Egan and Christy Loftus and other Mayo public figures partly for the same reason - to provoke some attack on them (more verbal than physical in these cases) and hence be able to portray the issue as some crazy natives fighting among themselves.
It is really an unfortunate position for someone to find themselves in, being used like this. Presumbly he has got in so deep with Shell he can now not get out too easily.

author by Revopublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 20:48Report this post to the editors

To those of u who feel "let down" , to be completely honest with you, this makes me sick. obviously the media infuences you extremely easily, i can say to you now wether you want to aknowledge it or not, that the media has thought up alot of lies in order to demonize the people.
To this day I cannot understand how you, the people who support this corrupt plan of shell's, can sleep at night. Maybe you would understand a bit better if u lived here, right in the thick of this controversy. im 15years of age and can see myself making my living right here in Erris. It crushes me to see a giant like shell trying to destroy my future, and most likely my childrens future.
Long term effects of the refinery and onshore pipeline include Leukemia and Asthma, I dont know about you, but im not even considering taking that risk. These are by the way only a couple of disadvantages. If you have done your research you will know that there are more and much larger ones.
I take part in the protest, as do my family and much of my community and I offer them nothing but respect, something which they have proven is more important than Shell's filthy money.

author by cool jpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 21:58Report this post to the editors

Only now have i recovered form the shock of this mornings events. A black day indeed in Erris with levels of brutality and intimidation not seen since the days of the Black and Tans and the Bingham land lords. Our community is under attack like so many other communities across the world by Shell and their Mugabe-like state thugs. John Egan, Shell's PR scumbag let the mask slip today and labelled the people of the local area as "dogs" on local radio. This serves to confim our fears about this company and what will be the consequeces of letting this abomination proceed .

author by Ernst Udet 7th - Jasta 2publication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 22:32Report this post to the editors

Hmmm,
Community under attack, whole country outraged,nationwide support etc are solid sounding statements indeed but I wonder if this will be confirmed in the next general election. Lets see if your community will reject all FF delegates and vote in independent supporters of your cause. Lets see if outrage at FF's actions concerning this matter will be cost them votes and seats all over the country.

Ernst

author by OsamaBinCohenpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 22:46author email OsamaBinCohen at Gmail dot comReport this post to the editors

Ok, a few things,
First, I could be accused of being a radical atheist, That is however not to say that I hate religious people, or their practices, It's just implies that I hate some religious institutes, and more than that, I hate SOME actions that SOME relegious institues have done in the past, with that, i also admire some actions that some religious people and even institues have done for the bettering of the life of people on this planet, If saying the rosery makes them feel a sense of solidarity, if that tradition unites them, or makes them feel good about a cause that is already righteous, it is no different than a communist singing the International.

Second, after years of struggle, Shell's PR have decided that they will look better if they have moved the pipe an inch, completely ignoring all the other concerns, and even the safety of the population, If this pipe was as safe as they first claimed it was, they wouldn't of needed to move it, if it isn't than while an explosion might not destroy a home (I don't know, i haven't seen the new route), one will still be catastrophic. now let me remind those of you who are ignorant, or simply forgetful what other issues are involved:

Fishing - the pollution from the refinery will poison the sea water at a near by shore, destroying the livelihood o local fisherman, as well as polluting the local beaches.

Dolphins, whales, sharks etc. - the position of the gas field is inconveniently on the breeding waters of several of those, this will either drive them away, or more likely will just kill them. also if i recall the pipe goes threw some dunes which are a habitat of some rare birds.

Air pollution - the refinery will give away several toxic chemicals, in one of the cleanest environments on the planet, there isn't another pollutant for miles around the area.

Money - all of the profits will go to multinationals, none to the Irish population, no supply security (even though Shell claim there will be) and the only possible financial benefit for the locals will be jobs, but sooner or later as we all know, even the jobs will be outsourced, and besides, this is an idealist area, making it into a large industrial zone is really interfering with people's lives, maybe i am romanticising it, but coming from London, i couldn't Imagine trading off this idealist lifestyle to a job closer to home.

Drinking water - the drinking water has already been polluted and now require to go threw a water purifier (Shell's) in order to fit human consumption.

Popularity - No one around actually want this to go on

I'm sure I am forgetting some things, but hey. maybe it was a mistake to focus only on the safety of the pipeline, and not on the other issues, but what Shell offered is not a compromise, a compromise will be to have the refinery off shore, a victory will be to not mine the field AT ALL.

If you've given up supporting the struggle, this is your democratic right, it also means you are an idiot, or a wanker.

Also, since this isn't actually a strike, the term scab might not be appropriate, anyone knows of a better term for someone who will sell off his local community in order to go to work?

To finish off, here's a nice quote from one of the most evil people in recent history "Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. a lot like making the police protect Shell and not the concerns of the population don't you think?

author by cool jpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 22:47Report this post to the editors

I totally understand your points Ernst. These last few days have made me wonder if we were better off remaining as an english protectorate given that this country is fast becoming a parady of what its founding fathers stood for - As I stated earlier one could not but feel today at Bellanaboy that if Captain Boycott and the Black and Tan's etc were still alive, they could not be but impressed to see how Ireland is fast lurching back to the good old times of the late 19th century were the interests of the Rich and powerfull elite were upheld by a faulty state!!.

author by Dermot Sweeney - Localpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 03:22Report this post to the editors

What a sad day to be Irish

I think every person has the right to a honest days work and to provide for his family.

Growing up and living in this area (The cleanest part of Europe, FACT!) has been a gift, handed down from my forefathers. An area full of wild life and unspoilt scenery, truly one the worlds great wilderness's .We have the richest concentration of sea life in Europe (FACT!) right beside the “proposed site”.The amount of fishing communities stand as a testament to this fact. (Don't think Fish like mercury!)

In recent years the area has become a popular tourist destination. People from all over the world come to for Golfing, Bird Watching, Fishing, Hunting , Water sport, Climbing, and nearly every activity you can think of and leave with a smile on their face. The short-term benefits people see ( such as jobs) for the area is over shadowed by the long term disaster this terminal poses on our environment and the discontinuation of all above activities.( who would want to come once the unspoilt environment is gone)

“Dynamic equilibrium is Nature's favoured state.”
Winter or Summer this part of the world is nothing short of dynamic any one who has spent some time here would agree

Lets keep it that way!

I want hand down to my kids the same gift that was given to me.

author by cool jpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:22Report this post to the editors

Thanx Dermot for your contribution which highlights the many marvels of nature in Erris that contribute to an increasingly vibrant tourist trade, shellfish industry etc.. All this hangs in the balance though thanx to the Shell elephant in the corner of the room.
People may or may not know that after nearly 2 years on applying for a pollution licence to the EPA Shell still have not received one. This is highly significant since people who follow these things know that the EPA was set up and staffed in such a way(Its head is a former IBEC executive and its board is packed with a number of ex-pharmacetical/incinerator industry reps) by the governemnet to give the veneer of environemental respectivly to companies like Auginish ALuminia and Schwartz pharma who are always in and out of court(to receive miniscule fines and asked to please try harder!! - which encourages them to continue on their merry way) for breeching limits of carcinogens and other toxins they spew into the local envrionemnt - hence all the reports of birth defects in cattle in West Limerick, spiraling Asthma rates and cancer clusters. The people of Erris can now expect this and more since the unprecidented delay in giving Shell there licence highlights the serious concerns even the EPA have for what will be spewing into the air and sea from the Shells's abomination at Bellanboy!!

author by cool jpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:29Report this post to the editors

Apparently the Gardai have closed down a street in Belmullet to facilitate yet another meeting between themselves and Shell!! - People are also being followed by marked and unmarked squad cars to and from their homes - Is there any end to this madness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

author by Johnpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:30Report this post to the editors

What a wonderful 24 hours for liberty, prosperity and capitalism in Ireland. At last, the Gardai enforced the right of people to go about their lawful work without being prevented from doing so by the Alliance against Everything. The same Alliance against Everything surrendered in its battle to stop Meath having a proper road network. It was also announced that Government coffers are bulging from the booming economy ensuring that we'll have large tax cuts in a few months. As if that weren't enough, it was also announced that the number of tourists to Ireland is up 12 per cent so far this year. And now this morning, the oil price is collapsing on the world markets and the world's stock markets are hitting all-time highs as a result. It doesn't get much better than this.

author by cool jpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:35Report this post to the editors

You called the local people dogs on Mid-West radio yesterday - but beleive me we'd rather be dogs any day then a corporate rat like you and your type!!

author by cool jpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 13:23Report this post to the editors

Many of you on here will know and recognise Terence Conway as a local who has always been on the frontline when it comes to standing up to Shell in the area. He asked me to pass on the following message this morning:

"Across the world in areas of conflict from the Garvaghy road to the Blue Berets on the peace-line in Korea the observer is generally viewed as being beyond reproach and interference. Yesterday at Bellanaboy the observer was removed and threatened by the so called up holders of the law in this state. Erris is now a frightning place to be as the people of Nigeria, Angola, Russia etc. only too well know!"

author by Johnpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 13:50Report this post to the editors

You're losing your cool again, Cool J. Ever thought of changing your name to Close to Boiling Point J. Never been on the radio in my life. Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit? A group of persons wish to go to their place of employment. A self-appointed group of fanatics try to stop them. The Gardai come along and prevent the fanatics from stopping them. Comparing this with totalitarian states like Russia is absurd and one of the reasons the wider public does not take you seriously.

author by cool jpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 14:21Report this post to the editors

You seem to have a good grasp of Egan's lingo - which suggests your a scum-sucker for SHell. If that is not the case then I would suggest you get your news from sources other than Kevin Myers, Paul Williams and other fiction writers of the Lord O'Reilly stable.

author by Joepublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 15:05Report this post to the editors

Yep...

Sound's about right there john..... Boiling point cool j .
One of these guy who loves being in the spot light , loves the attention , loves to hear himself , loves people to look up to him ..the big hero.
Should catch him self on and smell the coffee ,and stop ranting and raving as if the world is going to end and go back to his normal lifestyle like everybody eles in the counrty.

author by cool jpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 15:25Report this post to the editors

I should be at boiling point having witnessed my friends and members of my wifes family being assaulted and hospitalised by state thugs. Not that plastic paddies/people like you and John would understand!

author by Northern Lightpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 15:50Report this post to the editors

Gentlemen,

The "allow ordinary decent folk to return to work" card doesn't wash. What do you guys work at? Are you construction labourers? Do you work in cafeterias? Do you wash toilets? 'Cos they are the only class of job people in Mayo are being prevented from doing.

Even if 700 construction jobs materialise on the refinery site as Mr. Ruddy stated on the TV pray tell us where the overall benefit to Irish society is? What will the 700 people do when the refinery has been built? They will turn around and go back to wherever they came from because as Shell have acknowledged there will be only around 50 jobs on the site and none for those without substantial training or third level qualifications. This 700 jobs argument is work in a vacuum in an area that is being deprived the millions that could accrue from state control of a significant portion of the gas stake. Don't say that the state doesn't have the expertise to undertake such an operation. Actually they don't but they could have retained a share of the gas and subcontracted Statoil to operate. As echoed elsewhere on this site your arguments are for the peasants of Mayo to shovel the muck and make the tea for Shell while the profits from this venture flow overseas.

While we are on the subject John Egan saying that it is not economic to refine the gas at sea is absolute bunkum. In fact it is contemptible. If gas is becoming as scarce as we are led to believe and prices continue to rise it will eventually become economic to refine at sea. That's elementary. If gas prices fall then we don't need the gas for now and can continue to import. After all there will be no price difference between imported gas and gas bought from Shell.

In life there are those who strive to make a difference and there are those who just consume. In this case those who want to make a difference are attempting to block Shell in Mayo to preserve their environment, to allow sustainable development of the gas resource and to possibly see some of the revenues from the gas staying in the country. They have dignity. Those who want to consume are gorging on media information, food, holidays, clothes, sunbeds and the various trappings of affluent Irish society. They lead a "normal lifestyle" according to Joe. The price they pay for this "normal lifestyle" is the loss of dignity associated with having to ignore the manifest corruption of the Irish state as exemplified by what's happening in Mayo. You should hope John & Joe that your communities don't come into conflict with the interests of the state and multinational power. Who will support you then? I'll sign off with Pastor Niemollers words which if you read you may be familiar with...

First they came for the communists,
and I did not speak out,
Because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I did not speak out,
Because I was not a jew.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists,
and I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Next they came for the Catholics,
and I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Catholic.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left,
To speak out for me.

author by Makpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 16:05Report this post to the editors

Can anyone tell me what alternatives are being proposed by the Shell to Sea campaign?

author by Very Intelligent Personpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 16:08Report this post to the editors

"Shell to Sea" .... "SHELL to sea" ... no wait that doesn't sound quite right, oh "Shell TO SEA"!!!! Maybe they're campaigning for the gas-terminal to be built out to sea like every other fecking gas terminal on a high-pressure well-head?

Just a guess, I'm not an expert or anything.

author by Makpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 16:17Report this post to the editors

Why is the terminal not being built at sea and What reasons are Shell giving for this?

author by Responsepublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 16:30Report this post to the editors

1. It's over 100 million cheaper
2. The government is uniquely agreeable to their whims and is perfectly happy to donate a chunk of its population to massive experiments in transferring untreated gas through bogs.

author by Johnpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 16:43Report this post to the editors

You are conveniently missing the main advantage of developing this field, namely security of supply. The price is secondary and may well fluctuate wildly. Last year and into the first half of this year the price of gas soared. In the past couple of months it has started to come down and in the past week the wholesale price has collapsed. So, gas prices to the Irish consumer, which always lag months behind wholesale prices, should fall sharply in the first half of next year. But, all this is secondary. The reality is that gas reserves in the North Sea are dwindling and more and more of our gas is having to be imported from gas fields in Siberia through a 4,000 mile pipeline. There is no security of supply whatever in such a situation. The pipeline could be disrupted by Al Quaida or the Russians could simply turn off the tap if the West annoys them in some way. They did that to The Ukraine last winter. Ireland would suffer most in either of these situations as we are right at the end of the 4,000 mile pipeline and, if Corrib is not developed, we'll be the only Western European country with no indigenous gas production of our own. If our gas supplies from abroad were disrupted, industries would have to close down and old people would die of cold in Winter. Is that what you want? In addition, new industries are far more likely to be attracted to a country that has its own indigenous gas production rather than one which has no such production and which has to import it through a vulnerable pipeline from 4,000 miles away. So, what is at stake here is the development of Ireland as a modern industrial country and that is why, not only FF and the PDs support the development of this field, but so do FG and the Labour Party, a fact which you'll find out out quickly if the latter two parties win the next election.

author by Carolpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 17:02Report this post to the editors

Tell me, John where does it say that Shell to Sea are against the development of the gas at Corrib? As I understand it the problem is where this development takes place ...

author by cool jpublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 17:26Report this post to the editors

John is at it again. The state will still have security of supply if it is refined at sea which is the standard way of doing things in Norway and the Gulf of Mexico. Indeed the gas would be flowing now if Shell and their state lackies weren't so pig-headed and had refined it at Sea in the first place.

PS - Securit y of Supply is a red herring anyway since Bord Gais are planning a majour interconnector with the UK who are themselves along with another of other states just signed recent agreements guaranteeing gas supplies from Norway and Russia via an interconnector that goes no-where near the Middle-East

Oh and John I'm sure your just as worried about Al-Queda attacking Shannon AP and Sellafield among other places - though maybe not since that will generally kill mainly the small people who you despise!!

author by Scribepublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 17:35Report this post to the editors

There was an old Super called Gannon

who threatened us all with his cannon

He stood up for Shell

which drove him to Hell

whose gates he most surely is mannin'

author by Maigh Eopublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 17:36Report this post to the editors

It is rubbish to say that security of supply is an issue for Ireland. Our gas imports do not come from Russia. Russia cut off the gas supply to Ukraine last year because the price of gas to Ukraine had been subsidised by the Russian government, and the new Ukrainian government had refused to pay the market prices when Russia tried to change that agreement. Russia is also in the process of building another pipeline to Europe which will not go through the Ukraine but further north, to thereby strengthen and secure supply to Europe even more. The Russian government has also been in negotiations in recent years regarding the setting up of joint partnerships in the refining business across the water. You seem to have missed the fact that "Starwars" is now over, and that Russia is a friend, not an enemy, of Europe.

Secondly, we do not have an indigenous supply of gas in Ireland. Gas from Corrib belongs legally to Shell, Marathon and Statoil. It doesn't make a difference where the gas in the Bord Gáis network comes from as it will be purchased by Bord Gáis at whatever the international market rate is - there is no local rate, there are no subsidies for us. ComReg then decides what Bord Gáis can or cannot charge.

More importantly, the people of Kilcommon are not against the development of the Corrib field. They are against the installation of a dangerous pipeline near their homes and they are against having a huge polluting refinery in their midst, and many reports and scientists have backed them on this. Bord Pleanála's Senior Inspector noted that this was the wrong development in the wrong place, but suprise suprise, the Board of Bord Pleanála itself, which consists of political appointees, overturned their own inspector's advice.

author by Paddy Mulcahypublication date Wed Oct 04, 2006 18:31Report this post to the editors

Certainly, since Tuesday, October 3, 2006, Democracy in Ireland, is TERMINALly ill, given the charade at Leinster House - a brand new showing of DA BERTIE BOWL - together with the shameful carry-on of our Gardai and their despicable role on the side of SHELL OIL against the community of Rossport.
I believe that the courage of this community will eventually overcome the might of big business and corrupt government forces and I salute the good people of Rossport in their struggle.

author by Mark - Jack Whites latenight shell watchpublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 01:23Report this post to the editors

Dear John

So you've made it clear. your a fan of Capitalism. good for you, and attempt to suggest that somehow thats capitalism is about liberty.

Lets not go into the deaths cause by capitalists or even the particular capitalists at shell
Or its perhaps not even so useful to dicuss at this stage the wars, bloody coups, and state sponsored murders in support of capitalists individuals and corpoartions. i mean if one starts where would one end
Is proably a bit of topic to start to discuss how capitalist corpaortions have tried to muddy bthe waters on climate change using as all ways the balck art of PR
And no doubt if i started a rant about how capitalists are fundemantally about sucking the wealth, land , natural resources, power, informnation and even scientific knowledge so they can squeeze every last bit out of us, you probaly say its got nothing to do with rossport eh?

Well you'd be, like most fans of state spnsored violence, very wrong indeed

Your comments are simplistic, perhaps from niaviety, but more likely because capitalists are pyshologically dishonest. Its a prerequiste filter to enable fallacy to become 'common sense'. Its also because living untruths requires such mechanisms. Its porably not even your own 'fault' per se. at this stage the way you look at the world is reinforced by your peers, and you cant see much else different when at the looking glass.

Unfortunately john that doesnt make you any less dangerous for the rest us. Becuase you fail to see other realites, whether by choice or by culutrsal indoctrination( and lets face it its indoctrination cos if you had radically different beliefs that you have now, you peer support wouldnt belong disappearing) doesnt make those other desires for justice equalirt and meaningful democracy less real, or not worth standimng and fighting for

Who created the 'liberty' you have such a fanfare for John. From where did this liberty and this form of democracy come from John. What freedoms john have ever been handed down from those who hold unjustifiable power over our lives, our futures and create limited choices for us, expecting us to pretend we are free

Sure this is no stalinist Russia. To suggest it is just muddies the water

But the reality john is that the limited liberties and freedoms we have were not bestowed upon us. We fought for them. We struggled for them. Poeple died for them. And im not talking about great wars

Im talking about our right to vote, about the right of women to vote. Did capitalist abolish slavery? No... they even had the balls to suggest that they treat slaves better than paid labour because they have to 'protect thier investments'. Todays struggle is Rossport needs to be seen the continum of struggles across time, and across the globe right now

Poeple arte fighting for REAL DEMOCRACY. Not the sham of representative demovcracy, as bankrupt here in ireland as it is in pretty much every western democracy... WHY?

Fundamentaly the problems has been CAPITALISM. By that i mean hoarding of wealth and power by elites. By that i mean the idea that democracy , under capitalism, is about the vast majority of the populationbeing led. The vast majority of us are too dumb, to concerned with our daily grind and we need to be led by an educated elite. an educated elite indoctrinated in the values of the state-corporate nexus. An elite that shows its solidarity amongst themselves. and they have the all the force all the welath all the power. All within all that culture of hierachy of human worth, they have convinced themselves, like you john, of thier moral superiority. Well john, its a sham...just because it isnt totalatarian doesnt make it any less of a sham

the reason why labour and fianna gael are making no separate noises, or listening to the people of Rossport, and taking the same line as the PD's and FF is because they realise their weakness. the dont have the ability under this form of democracy to make such changes. WHY? because then real power are the corporate companies and thier unelected supporting instituions like the WTO, the IMF the G8 the G20 etc etc etc

The concept and form of democracy i want, and an willing to fight for, and to seek and build solidarity will all others doing so, is one that is basxed in a society in which the public has the means to participate in a meaningful way in the mangement of their own affairs, and where the means of information are open and free.

In Ireland of 2006, in the culture of tribunals corruption, deciet, policy created by PR companies working for other companies. in a country where gaurda corruption and violence is normal, where our elected representatives are mere technocrats tinkering at a whole construct of institutalised inequality, without real vision, only patronage to the corpoatre elite based upon educational indoctrination, that concept of democracy has yet to be realised

an it will only be realised with the passion drive commitment honesty and soildairtiy that is very very apparent within the community in Rossport. They carry the flames of people everywhere fighting for the desire to build a society based not on the greed of the few indiviual who make up the elite, but for ourselves collectively. They people of Rossport face the might of corportae greed, of elected represntation, and of the control of information via o reilly's media empire and the limitied courage of RTE and most corporate media outlets. For none of these groups can afford to disturb thier collective comforting dishonesty, lest the whole house of cards falls down

Capitalists have a very short and selective memory. Perhaps for them it is a luxury. For all those in involved in the struggle within thier communities...they take value and lessons from all our memories and still more from fellow humans struggling as we do today.... that is our luxury and that our strenght, that is our solidarity. For we will build that form of democracy that empower not just the landed and monied few, but us all. That house of cards is falling. such is desparate response of nation states against thier 'own'populations in every democracy today....

but like all ways..it is the courage and convictions and deication of 'none but our selves' that will build the world we want to live for ourselves and for those we leave behind

author by Claire Gpublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 02:31Report this post to the editors

Can anyone confirm what cool j said re John Egan calling the protesters "dogs" on local radio? I'd like to cite it if possible.

Related Link: http://www.tara-foundation.org
author by cool jpublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:11Report this post to the editors

He said it on the Tommy Marron(MWR) show to Marron and Mark Garvan ShelltoSea spokesman - This occured around 11am on Tuesday morning. I listened to it with other protestors in our coach at Bellanaboy. In any case I'm sure Niall or Terry will be around here later to confirm it

author by Shane - Shell to Seapublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 13:48Report this post to the editors

Rendezvous at the Arts Concourse in NUIG at five o'clock this evening.

author by Johnpublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 14:43Report this post to the editors

Maigh Eo says 'It is rubbish to say that security of supply is an issue for Ireland'. Au contraire, it is rubbish to say that security of supply is NOT an issue for Ireland. The fact is that North Sea reserves are running down as is the Kinsale field. Not only Ireland's but more and more of Western Europe's gas supplies are going to have to be imported from Russia. You prove it yourself by listing all those gas pipelines being built from Russia to Western Europe. There is no long-term security for Ireland in depending on Russia for its gas supply. How do we know that Russia is going to remain relatively democratic and capitalist? If their population is as dumb as most of the posters here, who is to say that an anti-Western communist government couldn't be in power in a decade's time. Neither is there anything secure in Ireland depending for its supply of such a vital fuel from a source 4,000 miles away through a pipeline that could be attacked by terrorists at any time.The fact that the pipeline isn't near the Middle East, as one poster said, is neither here nor there. The London Underground isn't near the Middle East but it got attacked. Al Quaida will definitely want to cut off Western Europe's gas supply and they may succeed. Where will that leave Ireland, the country most dependent on imported energy of any EU country? The reality is that economic security requires that Ireland develop its own gas and energy supplies as quickly as possible and, whether you like it or not, the only companies with the technology and expertise to do it are multi-national companies like Shell. Don't kid yourselves that the Corrib field could be developed by some sort of Mayo Small Landowners' and Fishermens' Cooperative. When all your anti-capitalist, economic and environmental arguments are disproved, you always revert to your argument of last resort, the safety issue. In other words, when pinned against the wall, you'll say you are not against the development of the Corrib field after all, you'll admit that there is no state-owned company capable of developing it, and that your only gripe is that the refinery should be built out in the sea rather than on land. But the reality is that its SAFER to build it on land. The arguments have been gone over a hundred times. Building it at sea would involve hundreds of helicopter flights annually and statistically the chances of an eventual fatality from that are greater than from a pipeline exploding. Both risks are very small. Virtually every economic activity involves small risk. For example, Mayo's petrol supplies currently come through Dublin port and other east coast ports. This involves hundreds of petrol tanker lorries driving from Dublin port to Mayo so that the locals can have petrol for their cars when they go on anti-Shell motor cavalcades as they did last year. There is a risk, a small risk, that someone in Dublin could be injured or killed as a result. Therefore, would people in Dublin be justified in saying that Mayo should get its petrol supplies delivered direct by sea and landed at some port on the Mayo coast rather than landed at Dublin port and Dublin people put at unnecessary risk as a result of hundreds of annual petrol tanker journeys from Dublin port to Mayo. Sorry to be so logical. I know logic isn't your strong point. As for Mark's post, its difficult to take seriously anything posted with that number of spelling errors. If that is the standard of literacy in the coming socialist utopia, then God help us.

author by cool jpublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 15:00Report this post to the editors

Why are you re-hashing your same old failed arguements? - Processing gas at Sea is the industry standard, oil companies have a good 80' years of experiance doing it. Besides the rig workers are well paid to do the job and are very experianced from working on similar set-ups all over the world. Local people in Erris are being forced to except a high pressure raw gas pipe that no-where in the world is run through highly unstable blanke bog less than a hundred meters from there houses. And all this without a large rig-workers salary.!!

People in Ivory towers like you John certainly wouldn't put up with this nonsence if it was in your backyard!!

author by Anthony Blairpublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 15:24Report this post to the editors

It is strategically advantageous to have a local supply of energy resources. This should be obvious to anyone, no matter how much of a friend of Russia they are.

I suspect most of you only talk to Indymedia people. My feelings are that there is not a groundswell of support for your current protest outside your own hard left milieu.

Your claims of "police state", "harrassment", etc are clearly hyped up. People who block a road must be moved on by the guards at some stage.

The far left know this. They block roads to provoke a reaction, and trick people into giving them sympathy.
Do the locals in the area know this I wonder, or are they dupes? They have obviously been fed a lot of nonsense about the statistical liklihood of high pressure gas pipes exploding. Are the far left winding them up, in order to use them for their own short term goals?

With gas prices rising 30%, it will be hard to find mass support for any campaign to restrict the flow of gas. You lost a lot of support that you had by refusing to negotiate via Peter Cassells.

Your campaign reminds me of other failed campaigns such as the N11 Glen of the Downs protest. The only effect of that pointless, and hysterical, campaign was to delay the opening of a much needed (and scenic) piece of dual carriageway.

The outcome of this campaign will be that you will delay the opening of a much needed gas supply. One year after the opening, the locals will not remember what they were complaining about. The hard left will have moved on to another throw-away campaign. The only medium term outcome that I can see is the possibility of a Sinn Fein TD elected in the area in the next election - at Jerry Crowley's expense perhaps? - that would be ironic.

What a waste of everyone's time and money.

author by Shane - S2Spublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 15:38Report this post to the editors

Obviously you have never seen the picket line at Bellenaboy. Then you would know that the core of the Shell to Sea campaign are local people, They have support nationally from a variety of people from all walks of life and of all political persuasions. My advice to you is to become a bit more media savvy and to stop getting your information from the Sindo and the Scumday world.

author by cool jpublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 15:55Report this post to the editors

Here we go again for the terminally stupid - The Gardai blocked the public roads at Bellanboy not the protestors, we were blocking the enterance to the terminal site well off the main public road . Traffic continues to be blocked in order to facilitate SHell's heavy equipment even when there are no protestors about!!

This project has no baring on what gas prices Irish people pay - We have signed away all those rights thanx to the crooked deals of Aherne, Burke, Fahy etc. - How do explain the fact that with oil prices now falling steadily Bord Gais just announced a massive rise in prices.

The Sinn Fein slurs are getting rather pathetic at this stage as Paul Williams recently found out to his obvious emabarresment since he has refused to back up his claims despite repeated offers to explain himself in the local printed and radio media.

Peter Cassels was appointed by his friend Dempsey to spin lies such as "the majority of the local people support the currently configured project" despite the fact that extensive petitioning in the area and the poll carried out by TG4 show a large majority in favour of the "ShelltoSEA" position

Still don't let the facts put you off especcially as you seem to have a talent their for some midly amusing though unorginal fiction!!

author by Andypublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 16:15Report this post to the editors

Because the gas is off the Irish coast, "security of supply" is somehow guaranteed. Well excuse me, but there is no agreement between Shell and the Irish Government obliging Shell to sell any of the gas to Ireland.

Shell owns the gas. Got it yet?

Shell owns the gas. They refine it here, and if it suits their purposes, ship it elsewhere. That's the great advantage of being an oil multinational. Ireland has no control over what happens to any energy resources discovered in Irish waters.

So maybe the paid State hacks who post here should attend to the fact that the taxpayers who maintain you in pinstripes aren't as ignorant you suppose.

author by krossie - dublin shell to seapublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 17:05Report this post to the editors

We are planning to accelerate activities in Dublin

Now would be a good time to join the Dublin shell to sea list!!

Apply here

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dublinshelltosea/

author by Northern Lightpublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 17:18Report this post to the editors

Let's just say John is right for a minute and Al Queda blow up all of the different pipelines linking Russian Gas to Western Europe and that the North Sea gas supply runs out and that the Algerian gas supply does too, then the following countries will have a security of supply issue for gas:

Albania
Andorra
Austria
Belarus
Belgium
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bulgaria
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Faroe Islands
Finland
France
Germany
Gibraltar
Greece
Hungary
Italy
Latvia
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Macedonia
Moldova
Monaco
Montenegro
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
San Marino
Serbia
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Ukraine
United Kingdom
Vatican City

Somhow I think that an "international" solution to such an eventuality might be generated...

author by R. Isiblepublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 18:02Report this post to the editors

If it's important to have nationally controlled resources in order to ensure stability against external disruption then why on earth would anyone want to piss away the Corrib gas field for next to nothing? Much better to sit on top of it and wait for petroleum prices to rise while we burn externally imported resources.

Waiting for petroleum prices to rise and getting a comparable return to that obtained by e.g. Norway on our natural resources makes more sense than sticking to an manifestly unfair and stupid agreement to sell the resource for next to nothing and end up with no security of supply and no profit from it.

All over the world oil companies are constructing rigs for the last "sweet" resources left even if they're relatively small and in what were previously non-profitable, dangerous areas.

But all that is irrelevant besides the central point that no one has the right to put the lives of people at risk so that they can save themselves a few hundred million, especially when it eliminates our security of supply and defrauds our exchequer of any reasonable profit.

author by Johnpublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 19:45Report this post to the editors

You are totally wrong in claiming that Corrib is the only offshore gas field where the gas will be processed onshore. Its the modern trend to process it onshore. For example, gas from the Ormen Lange gas field in Norwegian waters will be processed onshore. Its due to come on stream in 2007. The amount of gas in this field is many times that in the Corrib field and the amount of gas that will be processed onshore in Norway from that field is 10 times what will be processed onshore in Ireland. What's different is that few in Norway are bothered about it. Neither would people in most EU countries. They have a more scientific tradition in most EU countries. They don't have a persecution complex or have a MOPE (most oppressed people ever) syndrome like Ireland does. That's why they are building incinerators and nuclear power stations all over the EU (for example, Denmark has built 50 incinerators and Finland is building half a dozen new nuclear power stations), things that environmentalists in Ireland go berserk about, but which are treated as normal parts of life in these countries. They are aware of the risks involved, but because of their scientific tradition they are able to calculate that the risks are tiny and far ouweighed by the economic benefits. In contrast, every time a gas processing plant, an incinerator or, heaven help us, a nuclear power station is proposed for Ireland, we have thousands of left-wing and environmental cranks running around shouting "we're doomed, we're doomed". I typed 'Shell-to-sea' in my search engine and got 5,257 items. The Norwegian Ormen Lange field is being developed by a company called Hydro. I typed 'Hydro-to-sea' in my search engine and got nothing. OK, maybe I should have typed it in Norwegian which I don't know. But, I'm sure if I had, it will still come up with virtually nothing in comparison with 'Shell-to-sea'. Compared with Ireland, there is virtually no opposition to processing the Ormen Lange gas onshore. That's probably because there are fewer unscientific peasants in Norway that can be easily manipulated by left-wing scaremongers. No wonder when all the Corrib protestors went to Norway babbling about how half of Connaught was in danger of being wiped out by the relatively small Corrib refinery, they were laughed at as 'peasant Irish'. Because of their different attitude, gas from the Ormen Lang field, although discovered AFTER the Corrib field will come ashore next year while, thanks to your activities, it will be some years before gas from the Corrib field comes ashore. Its all somewhat similar to the protests against motorways. Every country in Europe has hundreds or even thousands of miles of motorway. Relatively rich countries like the Netherlands, Germany and France have thousands of miles. In Northern Ireland they had them as early as the late 1950s and it used to be the most striking difference between the Republic and Northern Ireland that when you crossed into Northern Ireland you travelled on modern motorways. But no longer. Even poor countries like Portugal, Greece, Hungary and Poland have motorways linking all their major cities. China is building 10,000 miles of motorway a year. But when the Irish Government tries to build a relatively small network of motorways linking its major cities all hell is let loose and the motorway program is obstructed at every turn by the same ragbag collection of loony leftists, environmental cranks and others who are behind the Corrib protests. You were defeated on the motorways issue, with Vincent Salafia making his final surrender in the High Court just this week, and at long last Ireland is getting the motorway network it needs with new stretches coming on stream every month. Twenty years later than other European countries had them, thanks to the protestors, but better late than never. It will be the same with the gas. You may hold it up for a few years, you may delay it, you may even win the odd skirmish. But, as surely as the motorway protestors were eventually defeated and new motorways are being built right, left and centre, so too will the Corrib gas one day come ashore because Ireland needs it and there are great innovative enterprising companies around, like Shell, but others too, who have now developed the twenty-first century technology capable of meeting that need.

author by Johnpublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 22:27Report this post to the editors

Looks like my post 3 hours ago has brought the discussion to an end. Its wonderful what a dose of factuality can achieve. I must remember that in future.

author by Wednesdaypublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 22:42Report this post to the editors

I have being following the above discussion over 'security of supply' and what Corrib gas could mean for Ireland. 'Security of supply' is an issue for the entire globe especially as oil supplies will soon decline if not already doing so. The government aswell as businesses are determined to get Corrib gas on stream to continue to attract businesses to Ireland and prevent those already here from leaving. They are relying on the gas being sold in Ireland. Shell are under no obligaiton however to sell the gas to Irish customers. As there is a gas line connecting us with Britain or is soon to be one then the gas could just as easily be sold to Britain. This is a possible scenario as North Sea gas which has been supplying Britain is nearing an end.
Work your way through any official government documnet concerning 'security of supply' and you will plainly see their determination to push forward with Corrib.
For example
http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/Corporate+Units/Virtual+Press+R...e.htm

Corrib is only mentioned once in the speech. But references to gas supply and Corrib can be found throughout numerous documents on the DCMNR website.

And read any public document from business organistions concerning 'security of supply' you will find the same. The Corrib gas field may only provide 25 years worth of gas however. Its short term gains are not worth the long term damage or worth a government ignoring it's citizens to arse kiss a giant corporation, whose activites damage the planet and result in deaths, i.e. Nigeria.

On a related note some of you may be interested in reading about a similar project which resulted in an explosion in Australia if you have not already come across it. It was an Esso site. Again unrefined gas was piped ashore. There was an explosion at the processing plant becasue of poor maintenance on some of the equipment and a number of other factors. Two men died and eight were injured. Esso tried to balme two staff members for the explosion but an enquiry found Esso responsible.
You can google it or check it out using the link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Esso_Longford_gas_exp...osion

author by Wednesdaypublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 23:10Report this post to the editors

Hmm John I think you really need to rethink your narrow-minded ideas about what progress and development are. Stretches upon stretches of concrete and motorway do not necessarily mean progress. Nuclear power plants and incinerators that cause irreversible damage to the environment and people’s health are not progress. Sure Northern Ireland has motorway and roads much better than ours but that does not make Northern Ireland some sort of enlightened haven. Their economy may be better than ours but this does not mean that large sections of their society are not economically disadvantaged. Motorways do not change problems like that. Community action can however. If the government sorted out the Irish rail network instead of ripping up hundreds of miles of rail decades ago in favour of roads then we may not have the traffic problems we have today and we could have a rail network to surpass any of that in Europe. Do you care to comment?

Progress would be putting the funds and determination they have for Corrib renewable, sustainable more SECURE energies.

You make reference to 'economic benefit' outweighing the risks. Tell us John what is acceptable risk if it means that a few more international companies can set up in Ireland for the time they are guaranteed 'security of supply' by Corrib gas before they piss off to some other country once the well runs dry....10 lives, 15 lives, 20 lives. I am sure some of the other people contributing to this discussion can tell us the exact number of 'acceptable' deaths outlined in the safety report of the Shell project. I think something in the region of 115 deaths over the lifetime of the project is the 'acceptable risk'. Who gives Shell, the government, you or anyone the right to sacrifice people's lives for economic benefit? I do not think anyone living in Rossport wants to be a martyr for the economy.

Then what about the environmental damage?

These economic benefits you talk about John, what are they? Pray do tell? How will we see them or experience them? Do you imagine that you will experience economic benefit from Corrib gas? Really do you? Do you think the local people will? I would genuinely like to know.

As for the "the same ragbag collection of loony leftists, environmental cranks and others who are behind the Corrib protests" you talk about I am sure you are well aware and have been reminded on numerous occasions the people of Rossport are out on the picket lines, they were the ones who went to jail, they are the ones who called for help and they are the ones who say thank you again and again to the people of all backgrounds who have travelled to support them throughout this.

author by Jonnypublication date Thu Oct 05, 2006 23:37Report this post to the editors

Anyone see the Shell to Sea guy on Primetime tonight? They don't seem to be even pretending that the pipeline is actually dangerous anymore, their case now is simply that people are afraid of it. People have a right to be afraid of it and therefore they have a right to stop people going to work. Or so the argument seems to go.

I'm afraid of the cars that drive past my house. My protest begins tomorrow.

I was also amused by the Rossport Five guy (I won't embarrass him by naming him) who accepted that it was wrong to stop the workers going to work but claimed the Nuremberg defense of preventing a greater evil. Oh dear, someone give the guy a Nobel Peace prize or something.

author by Andypublication date Fri Oct 06, 2006 00:13Report this post to the editors

Do you need to be pointed to the pipeline explosions that have occurred worldwide in the last year? I notice you don't deign to actually discuss in a serious fashion what you pretend to refer to for the sake of debating points. I know you must feel comfortable seated on your oversized rear end passing judgement on other people, but reality I'm afraid has a bit more to it than money in the hand.

For instance, Shell has been storing the "safe" pipeline it intends to lay from the wellhead to the refinery at a quarry in Co. Donegal, for years, in the open air. Shell intends to use this corroded metal to conduct raw gas, whose pressure cannot be controlled, to a 400-acre industrial plant in the middle of seven Special Areas of Conservation, which are protected under EU law. You're ok with that, are you lads?

An Bord Pleanala's own inspector stated that under no circumstances should the project proceed as planned, particularly as troughs going through unstable bog carrying high-pressure gas, high-voltage power lines and high-pressure coolant seems to tempt fate in an extreme way, and the refinery itself will be discharging waste into Broadhaven Bay and flaring off gas day and night. The pipeline itself was made exempt from planning permission. I guess you're ok with that too, are you lads? Do you by any chance want to defend Shell's safety, environmental or human rights records? You'd have a tough time, lads.

Ireland stands to gain nothing. Ireland gets no royalties, has the world's lowest tax regime, funds the whole operation through tax write-offs, and on top of that, we have the indignity of seeing the whole operation run from Scotland. The plan is, we buy the gas from Shell at the market rate. But in those terms, it would be cheaper by far to leave the gas in the ground and buy it from overseas like before, particularly as Shell isn't even obliged to sell the gas to Ireland if it doesn't want to. By the way, we don't even know what's there, as the State's deal is that the oil companies decide what's there, and thus decide the terms they explore under. I guess, being PR lackeys for the State, you're just grand with all that too lads.

Did I forget how Ireland as part of its licensing terms hands over large areas of its foreshore for oil and gas companies to sit on for years? I guess that's ok with you too, lads. Over a pint or ten in Buswell's it even seems logical.

Trouble is lads, we didn't elect you. And we certainly didn't elect the types you mouth for to change the law to give themselves the right to do as they wish. Try selling your wares elsewhere. You are used car salesmen, after all, selling's in your blood so to speak.

author by Bookwormpublication date Fri Oct 06, 2006 19:52Report this post to the editors

John, I'll refer you to an Indymedia posting from over a year ago explaining exactly why the Corrib Project as planned is different to other projects that Shell were quoting at the time as being parallel. You'll find the link below. Here's the relevant bit for you:

"The Ormen Lange field over 100km off the Norwegian coast is processed at a place called Nyhamna; right on the shoreline. The cleaned gas is then piped back out to sea for export to the UK. The high pressure gas never runs near populated areas either before or after processing."

To compare the proposed Corrib configuration to Ormen Lange is simply wrong. Clearly the bottom line here is that the local community which has to take the risks associated with this project do not want an unprecedented industrial experiment of this magnitude beside their homes. There is no other production pipeline running by people's homes anywhere else in Ireland. I hate to have to rehash all of this information which has been put before the public before but other commentators here seem to have very short memories. In regard to your delighted lack of responses to your crazy no-paragraphs posting, please remember that not everyone is paid to blog.

Another misrepresentation of the situation in Mayo which has been aided by the media is the use of the word "local". In an area the size of Erris, "local" is used by Shell and/or the media to refer to people who live 10 miles and 20 and 30 miles away from the host community. The people whose lives and health would be put at immediate risk - and this is a fact, we've had a lot "risk assessments" after all - are not those who live 10 and 20 and 30 miles away (although that would depend on the magnitude of any accident were such to occur) are those who live adjacent to the proposed development. It's unfair to ask them to take this risk.

Related Link: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/71524?userlanguage=ga&s...=true
author by Northern Lightpublication date Fri Oct 06, 2006 21:17Report this post to the editors

Jonny, three posts up is obviously a troll. I just watched Primetime online. Mark Garavan "buried" John Egan in the debate. The fact that Jonny didn't mention this is astounding. What Vincent McGrath said was grand too. The best line of the show was Garavan telling Egan:

" your project, at the moment, is dead in the water. Why? Not because of the protest per se, but because of your extremist, intransigent, insistence on overriding the will of the majority of the people in bringing forward, a disordered project. If you got the project right, the Corrib Gas would be flowing and all these benefits would be accruing to the state. The obstacle to the project is Shell..."

Inspiring!

author by Johnpublication date Sat Oct 07, 2006 16:38Report this post to the editors

So, Bookworm, you admit the central point. The refinery in Norway, which is many times bigger than the one proposed for Mayo, is built on land and NOT at sea. This contradicts lots of other posters who claim that the refinery in Mayo is unique in the world in being built on land. So please go and inform them that in Norway a much bigger refinery is being built on land. You excuse the Norwegian one on the grounds that its built in a remote area. Well, North-West Mayo is hardly the most densely populated area of the world, its not exactly Manhattan up there. But, let's say Shell build the refinery on land but on a spot right on the coast where no one lives rather than a few miles inland, i.e. similar to the Norwegian one. Will you accept that as a compromise? Of course you won't. Because the whole campaign to have the refinery built at sea is really a campaign to stop the field being developed. There is no oil or gas company in the world that would build the refinery for the Corrib field at sea. You can prattle on about Shell all you like, but if the Corrib field was being developed by BP, Texaco, Exxon or any other oil/gas company, they'd all opt to build it on land. The reason is that, contrary to your scaremongering, the risk is minimal. There are activities in Mayo which carry a million times the risk of anyone being killed as a result of this refinery being built. In the past decade about 200 people have been killed in road accidents in Mayo. Will you start a campaign to stop people driving on roads past other people's houses? Because the risk of being killed as a result of a road being built near your house is far greater than the risk of being killed by an underground pipeline exploding. Wildly exaggerating the potential risks from major industrial developments in this country is par for the course for the environmental movement which has always been opposed to Ireland developing a modern industrial economy. Hence their continual attempts to stop every new road, every new factory, every new shopping centre. Remember when the Alcan plant was being built? They'd tried to stop that. They claimed it would explode and turn Limerick into Hiroshima. They were wrong then and wrong now.

author by Northern Lightpublication date Sat Oct 07, 2006 19:51Report this post to the editors

John, the above statement from you is complete rubbish and actually "rubbishes" the rest of your arguments. Please name one person publically associated with the Shelltosea campaign who has made such a pronouncement and then come back to us. We will be waiting a long time.

Orman Lange is on an island beside the Norwegian Coast. Of course this is a better solution than that proposed for Corrib Gas. Personally I think the refinery could be built on the Iniskea Islands... How about that for a compromise!

As for the safety of the rig workers, don't worry they would get plenty of danger money. In fact the whole debate about their safety is actually ridicules. There are no slaves anymore. Anyone who takes a job there will go in with their eyes open and their unions (if Shell agrees to deal with them...) should ensure that all possible safety features are put in place. If Shell don't value their employees enough to ensure they get out to the rigs unhindered then that's not the fault of the Shelltosea campaign...

author by Andypublication date Sat Oct 07, 2006 20:37Report this post to the editors

Regarding Shell/Dept. of Environment (and face it, what's the difference these days) trolls who monitor the internet for dissent and post their lies and propaganda for policies no one supports, the Inspector that was appointed by An Bord Pleanála clearly and decisively rubbished every single one of the "arguments" you have made so far. Please educate yourselves before displaying your ignorance to the world. Remember this: stupidity can't be cured, but ignorance can. Those who choose not to remedy what is open to remedy are not deserving of sympathy.

Oh, and please keep the Nazi tendencies reined in. I know the closet death-squad wannabies really get the urge to "come out" when something particularly outrageous such as this needs to be punched through, but do you really feel such a need to murder those that disagree with you that you wish the Gardai were armed and would start executing people? I mean, really. Get yourselves together, and get an honest job. Pimping for Shell and the "Minister" has no future.

author by cool jpublication date Sun Oct 08, 2006 04:13Report this post to the editors

Your pig-ignorance on the issue John never fails to amaze me. The one example your struggled to find in Norway consists of a tiny unhabited islet way out in the North Sea. Comparing it to what Shell are proposing is simply laughable and shows you are clueless on the issue. Your spanking by the great Mark Garvan on Prime-time despite your clumsy attempts at putting him off when the camera wasn't on you seriously back fired when Mirian spotted what you were at - Was that why you true a hissy fit when the programme was over??? - Pathetic!!

PS - Johnny - What programme where you watching since it appears no one else saw it!! - From now on please keep your fantasies to yourself!!

author by supppublication date Sun Oct 08, 2006 08:48Report this post to the editors

http://www.corribsos.com/index.php?id=222

http://www.hydro.com/en/press_room/features/easington_a....html ooh look easingtons already got a village hall, pegg must be dead jealous.

author by cool jpublication date Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:30Report this post to the editors

Hydro news which I assume is part of the companies PR machine reads spookily like SHell's well greased unit. Interview the right people, briefly mention that not all are as delighted with their plans, and talk up the supposed benefits to get the thing built which will ensure there is no going back - I got on overwhelming sense of Deja-vu!!

author by Johnpublication date Sun Oct 08, 2006 17:33Report this post to the editors

You are being typically deceptive. Until I pointed out that the much larger Norwegian refinery is being built on land, you were all claiming that the Corrib refinery was the only one in the world being built on land. When I pointed this out, you all all came back with the riposte that, although the Norwegian refinery is technically being built on land, its on a remote offshore island with nobody living for miles around, so therefore its not comparable to the Irish one. This is what you are all arguing. Actually, if you go check your facts, you'll find that the small island where the Norwegian refinery is being built has a population of 3,000 and an area of 20 square miles, which means it has a far higher population than the entire county of Mayo, including its larger towns. It is also a mere mile or so off the Norwegian coast, so its not exactly Rockall. I just emailed the office of the administrator of the island for his views on the controversy and will be delighted to post his reply. Also, the person by the name of Cool J who keeps referring to me as John Egan should realise that John is quite a common name in Ireland and the fact that I am called John doesn't mean I'm John Egan. You'll find that there are probably a quarter of a million Johns in Ireland (and I'm not referring to the places where most of the posts on this site should be flushed down). Talking of John Egan, has anyone put an audio on this site of the now notorious 'dog' comment that Cool J claims he heard him making on Mid Western radio about the Rossport protestors. And, if not, why not?

author by Andypublication date Sun Oct 08, 2006 21:02Report this post to the editors

I would direct you, again, to the report by Senior Planning Inspector Kevin Moore recommending to An Bord Pleanála that planning permission for the terminal be refused.

"From a strategic planning perspective, this is the wrong site; from the perspective of Government policy which seeks to foster balanced regional development, this is the wrong site; from the perspective of minimizing environmental impact, this is the wrong site; and, consequently, from the perspective of sustainable development, this is the wrong site. ...[T]he proposed development of a large gas processing terminal at this rural, scenic, and unserviced area on a bogland hill some 8 kilmetres inland from the Mayo coastland landfall location, with all its site development works difficulties, public safety concerns, adverse visual, ecological, and traffic impacts, and a range of other significant environmental impacts, defies any rational understanding of the term 'sustainability'."

In his report, Mr. Moore noted that the industry norm appeared to be tie-backs to offshore platforms (in contrast to Shell's line). He also addressed the examples of Ormen Lange and Snohvit, both of which are uttered by Shell like an invocation whenever the lunacy of their project is discussed. Both of these examples relate to gas fields which are huge, several times the size of the Corrib field.

However, John and other Shell lads, you may have a point in using these comparisons. In 1998, the Government was told by the oil industry that the offshore around the Corrib field potentially contained up to 11 TCF. Shell's plan, madness though it may appear, begins to make sense when one considers Mr. Moore's remarks regarding this:

"I put it to the Board that there is hydrocarbon prospectivity ongoing off the coast of Donegal, that the proposed gas terminal has a design life of 30 years, and that it was accepted at the hearing that the terminal could be developed to meet new demands from other prospectivity if a tie-back was feasible."

I would advise all concerned to take note of that last sentence, because it suggests a rationale for Shell's refusal to tolerate anything except another Niger Delta situation: namely, that Shell is well aware of the presence of further gas deposits, and have planned ahead.

By the way, apart from the fact that the pipeline is unprecedented in its nature, and that its pressure cannot be regulated, and of course that it is exempt from HSA monitoring, it is certain to rupture, because Shell has been storing the pipes out in the open air for the last few years in a quarry in Donegal.

author by supporterpublication date Sun Oct 08, 2006 21:32Report this post to the editors

MY SELF AND MY FAMILY FULLY SUPPORT THE PEOPLE OF ROS DUACH AND ARE COMPLETLY BEHIND THEM ALL THE WAY.
God bless you all in your struggle you are an inspiration to the world.
coinnigi suas an obair maith
from a supporter in the conamara gaeltacht

author by cool jpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 02:00Report this post to the editors

John you need to get out more. You have stated that Co.Mayo has less than 3000 people!!!!!!!. This is why no-one takes you seriously - the last census showed that there was nearly 120,000 people in Mayo - Belmullet alone has 2000 and the Erris catchment has nearly 20,000, all of who are at risk from the pollution this monstrosity will pump in the air and water. Also the one example you could find in Norway goes no-where near villages or any other habitation!! - One day you might be right about something you post on here, though I wouldn't hold my breath on that one!!

PS - Transcripts of the John Egan conversation in which he labelled local people as "dogs" can be got by contacting MWR in Ballyhaunis Co. Mayo.

author by cool jpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 09:50Report this post to the editors

Reports coming in from different media of considerable garda force being used against protestors this morning as the state continues to do Shell's dirty work at Bellanaboy. Can't get through to my sources at the scene so don't know the exact details yet.. Hoping to get something before 9:15am since I have to head out after that myself!!

author by Sean Seoighepublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 14:49Report this post to the editors

A banana republic is what what we live in.It is utterly shameful
what this goverment has done in support of this super oil company(shell).
This being done to a precious little gaeltacht village in our country .The very kind of places they should be protecting.
Our Gardai are being paid and used to surpress the people of this little gaeltacht village.
The gardai are being used , paid and prostituted to supress these poor but extreamly brave people.This is all being done by a goverment who has lost its way through profit and greed.
This would rarely happen in undeveloped countries or under dicatorships .Its a sell out of the saftey of our people, our families our land our language and a sell out for generations to come.
My God what has money and greed done to our country people and goverment today. Are we going the way of nigeria.
Shell please leave these poor people their families and property in peace.
Shell go to sea

author by PMpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 16:30Report this post to the editors

I heard the "dog" comment and it was not as it has been reported here. Egan spoke about the "dogs on the street" and how they were aware of what was going on with regard to those people who were canvassing support for "research"...being carried on .

happy to clarify.

author by Helperpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 16:37Report this post to the editors

Report on the latest actions of the gardai heavy-squad enforcing the "right" of shell to put a high-pressure pipeline through an environmentally sensitive area and beside people's homes:

Related Link: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78896
author by Claire Gpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 17:13Report this post to the editors

Thanks for replies on John Egan's comments on MWR. I'll try and get clarification from the station itself.

Interesting how the spin changes, though, isn't it? A while ago the residents had 'legitimate concerns', now the media are going all out with lies about "criminals", "thugs" and the IRA. This of course is aimed at legitimising the Gardaí providing all-expenses-paid security - the statements they made clearly emphasised a security risk and they tried to portray the protesters as posing a threat to the sHell workers.
This is also the line of the PDs, one of whose TDs a member of my family rang last Wednesday.

*waves at Shell spokepeople above*

author by Claire Gpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 17:15Report this post to the editors

*not immediately above, of course, but throughout the comments*

author by Johnpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 18:14Report this post to the editors

Cool J, well done for spotting my error: You obviously have good eyesight. I said the Norwegian island 'has a population of 3,000 and an area of 20 square miles, which means it has a far higher population than the entire county of Mayo'. In my rush I omitted the word 'density'. It should have read 'has a population of 3,000 and an area of 20 square miles, which means it has a far higher population density than the entire county of Mayo'. Density means population divided by area, which is why my sentence included figures for both population and area. I think you'll find the corrected sentence is true. Mayo has a population of about 125,000 and an area of around 1,400 square miles, so you can do the divisions for yourself. Population density is, of course, the key comparison as it indicates the island where the Norwegian refinery is being built is not some uninhabited Rockall-type island but is roughly similar in population density (actually somewhat higher) to the county of Mayo. Still waiting for the 'dog' audio. Perhaps your hearing is not as good as your eyesight.

author by cool jpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 18:30Report this post to the editors

It wasn't as simple as that PM - Many local people took offence as to the way he referred to local people as dogs on the street!! - Both Mark Garvan and Tommy Marron asked him to withdraw the insulting comments!.

author by cool jpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 18:34Report this post to the editors

The utter nonsence you keep coming out with would suggent the hamster is long dead. We have a deadly pipe running right through a village - Has that not sunk in yet!!!

author by PMpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 18:36Report this post to the editors

Sorry cool j but it is precisely as simple as that. He did not refer to local people as dogs ...he merely used a very common description...."even the dogs in the street understood"....what was going on!!

happy to clarify

author by cool jpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 18:48Report this post to the editors

The comment was pointed and designed to offend - That was why he was asked to withdraw it!! - Everyone I listeted at Bellanaboy was of the same opinion listening to it live!!!

author by Helperpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 20:48Report this post to the editors

More detailed reports of Garda thuggery on Mon Oct 9th including punching women on chests, punching peaceful protestors in the face. All so that Shell can endanger people's lives and rip off the Irish nation.

Related Link: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78913
author by PMpublication date Tue Oct 10, 2006 13:31Report this post to the editors

"Everyone I listeted at Bellanaboy was of the same opinion listening to it live!!!"

....i.e you and your fellow protestors.

fact is he didnt say what you are claiming - if you misunderstood him thats ok but it does you no service to spread a lie!

happy to clarify

author by Andypublication date Tue Oct 10, 2006 13:40Report this post to the editors

Could someone please post the transcript here, as soon as possible?

author by Tall Storypublication date Tue Oct 10, 2006 16:14Report this post to the editors

Extract:

Mark Garavan:

In other words there is no basis for which talking can begin at this stage.

If anything direct talks at this point would be counterproductive.Because without a willingness on both sides to engage and address the core issues we’re not going to make progress.The core problem here is Shells consistent denial as further exemplified this morning that they’re dealing with the majority of the local people. And what we are arguing is that the principle of consent has got to be factored in as an integral design practical aspect of the project. It isn’t just a technical matter as Shell consistently says .Its got to do with community consent as well.

Tommy Marron

Ok fair enough.

Yes John Last word.

John Egan:

I think your listeners can hear who's willing to talk and who's not willing to talk.

If I can just address one final point to Mark Garavan.

He talks about a door to door survey and getting overwhelming support.

Now the dogs in the street know what's happening down here door to door and if people come knocking on your door of course you’d sign something.

And he also talks about the 61 percent He also talks about….

author by PMpublication date Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:39Report this post to the editors

Well done

It appears i was correct after all

Happy to have clarified!

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