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The Irish Army in action

category cork | crime and justice | opinion/analysis author Monday August 22, 2005 06:40author by Peter Newman - author Report this post to the editors

This is what Irish government soldiers have done.

The Nazi is in all of us.

....the nine prisoners, all bruised and battered from the beatings they got from their Free State captors, were put into a lorry, which was heavily escorted, and driven along the Castleisland Road .....

" They were being taken, they were told, to remove barricades. They did not believe that - sick men with useless hands and arms. One of the soldiers handed each of them a cigarette. "The last smoke you'll have," he said. The lorry pulled up near the corner of the Killorglin Road, beside Ballyseedy Wood. They saw a log lying across the road. They were made to get out of the lorry and stand in a close circle around the log.

The soldiers had strong ropes and electric cord. Each prisoner's hands were tied behind him, then his arms were tied above the elbow to those of the man on either side of him. Their feet were bound together above the ankles and their legs were bound together above the knees. Then a strong rope was passed round the nine and the soldiers moved away. The prisoners had their backs to the log and the mine, which was beside it; they could see the movement of the soldiers and knew what would happen next.

They gripped one another's hands, those who could, and prayed for God's mercy upon their souls. The shock came, blinding, deafening, overwhelming ..... "

BALLYSEEDY CROSS .... continued….

.... John Shanahan was taken by his Free State captors into a dark cell with nine coffins in it ; they pointed out his own coffin to him and questioned him again regarding the names of his comrades on the outside . He stayed silent. He was marched back to his own cell and locked in ....


" The prisoners were given some kind of trial in the Workhouse on March the third, but no sentence was told. They were kept there for three days more. Shanahan's back had grown weak since the beating in Ballymullen, and before March the sixth, he collapsed. His illness saved him when his comrades were taken out.

Very early on Wednesday, while it was still dark, Stephen Fuller was called out of his cell. He was taken to the guardroom. George Shea and Timothy Twomey were with him and they found six more prisoners there. An officer was shouting at Patrick Buckley, accusing him of having deserted from the RIC, raging against him for giving over a barrack to Michael Brennan before the Truce. It was true: he had done it - he was to get his punishment now.

The prisoners looked ill; one had a broken arm; all were scarred and bruised and suffering - James Welsh had a bandage on his broken wrist. The Free State soldiers searched them in the guardroom and took their cigarettes. They were put into a lorry with a heavy escort and driven along the Castleisland Road .......

---------------------------------------------------------------

.... George Shea, Tim Twomey, John Shanahan and Stephen Fuller were captured on the twenty-first of February in a dug-out .....


" They were taken, to be interrogated , to Ballymullen Barracks in Tralee . 'Interrogation' by (David) Neligan in Ballymullen Barracks was an ordeal under which reason might give way. The prisoner, in the usual practice, was first blind-folded, then his arms were tied to his sides, and 'interrogation' began. This time a hammer was used. The prisoners were taken in separately. When John Shanahan came out his head was covered with blood and his spine was injured, but he was still able to walk .

The hammer failed. The prisoners were taken out to be shot, and shots were fired round their heads. They were then sentenced, for their obdurate silence, to be executed at midnight and were then locked in their cells. At midnight Stephen Fuller heard his comrades being taken out one by one and heard shots fired in the yard. The guards came for him and took him down to a dark cell. He saw nine coffins there with the lids closed. "Three of those have their men," they told him, "and this is yours," and they stopped to unscrew the lid.

For half-an-hour more they were questioning him, he wishing only for a sharp end . Then they locked him into his cell again.

.....John Daly was beaten by the Staters in Tralee Jail - when they were finished, his spine was injured beyond recovery .......

Michael Connell was only twenty-two years old , but since the Conscription menace he had been a Volunteer . He was taken in the middle of February at a dance; he was unarmed and his mother had no fear for him. She saw him looking out of the prison window on Tuesday evening.

"I'll write tomorrow," he called. She would not believe that he was one of the victims until a girl who had seen the bodies told her there was a "black curly boy" - she went up and looked then, and knew her son .

James Walsh was well known to be in danger, being a leader and a man with great influence among the people. George Shea, Tim Twomey, John Shanahan and Stephen Fuller were captured on the twenty-first of February in a dug-out.

......eight prisoners at Ballyseedy Cross, four at Killarney, five at Cahirciveen; the Free Staters were executing prisoners in reprisal for the mine at Knocknagoshel, which killed five Staters - two Captains, two Privates and a Lieutenant .....

Every precaution against disclosure was taken by the murderers; every preparation was made to make Ireland believe a lie; yet every detail of those three massacres "by most miraculous organ" has been revealed. Nine prisoners were taken from Tralee to be killed at Ballyseedy Cross, and nine coffins were sent out from the jail, but only eight men had been killed .

Their names were John Daly, George Shea, Timothy Twomey, Patrick Hartnett, James Connell, John O'Connor, Patrick Buckley, and James Walsh.

Patrick Buckley, who had five children, was thought by some of his friends to be safe in jail - he had done so much for Michael Brennan in Limerick in the trouble with the Black-and-Tans. There were others who knew that his action then would be little protection to him now. John Daly was captured on the 4th of February. He had been in the Republican Army for seven years or more, and was known to the enemy.

They beat him until his spine was injured beyond recovery, in Tralee Jail.

.....the Free Staters claimed that the incident was caused by a land-mine planted by the IRA on the Killorglin Road - but the IRA had not built a barricade nor planted explosives on that road at the time, and could not have been responsible .....


They had, however, at Knocknagoshel, attached a trigger-mine to a dump. The following statement was issued on the tenth of March (1923) from IRA Headquarters, Kerry No.1 Brigade --

" A trigger-mine was laid in Knocknagoshel for a member of the Free State Army, Lieutenant O'Connor , who had made a hobby of torturing Republican prisoners in Castleisland. On Tuesday, a party of Free State troops, including Lieutenant O'Connor, proceeded to the place, and two Captains, Lieutenant O'Connor, and two privates were killed. "


Reprisals on prisoners, instituted by the Free State Government in Mountjoy on December 8th, 1922, had become a systematic practice in their jails. It was concluded that the slaughter of eight prisoners at Ballyseedy Cross and of four at Killarney and of five at Cahirciveen were reprisals for the Knocknagoshel mine.

But for one accident, so incomprehensible as to seem miraculous, what happened at Ballyseedy Cross could never be rightly known. That early on Wednesday morning a shattering explosion was heard, that a great rent in the roadside and hideous evidence of bloodshed were discovered later in the day, that nine coffins containing the mutilated remains of prisoners were sent out from the barrack and that for days afterwards 'the birds were eating human flesh off the trees at Ballyseedy Cross' - these facts and these only would be known.

The explanation put out by the Free State authorities was known in the locality to be untrue. They said that the prisoners were blown up by mines attached to barricades set up by the Republicans in Killorglin Road. No barricade was placed by Republicans in that neighbourhood on that night.

author by Sharon - Individualpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 09:24Report this post to the editors

Good post - great reading .

If I am not mistaken , those are 'snippets' from Dorothy Macardle's (1924) book , 'The Tragedies Of Kerry ' . I read it years ago - and will take it out of the library now and read it again .

Others on this Forum will no doubt accuse you of 'living in the past ' : they will sneer at you and tell you to 'get over it ' , or some such . But I believe books like that should be passed down the generations , should be read by every young adult on this island - not to 'light' a seed of vengeance , but to remind our people of the suffering endured by those that thought this country had something worth fighting for . It is a spirit that is sadly lacking now . But that spirit is still there - if you know where to look for it !

Slan go foill anois , a chara ,

Sharon .

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by fiachrapublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:00Report this post to the editors

It was terror against terror. Reprisal on reprisal. Most Irish people favoured peace. By the time of the Civil War those opposing the Treaty were the hardcore who hated the the majority of Irish people for being so spineless, and had no problem robbing, killing and terrorising them.

author by Sharon. - Individualpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:25Report this post to the editors

"It was terror against terror.... reprisal on reprisal. "

-- the anti-Treaty forces also had landmines . When , and where , did they strap their prisoners to one and detonate it in reprisal ?

"Most Irish people favoured peace.... "

-- most people , anywhere , "favour peace.. " . I myself "favour" peace . With justice .

" By the time of the Civil War those opposing the Treaty were the hardcore who hated the the majority of Irish people for being so spineless, and had no problem robbing, killing and terrorising them. "

-- so the anti-Treaty forces had no objective other than "..robbing , killing and terrorising ... " the "...spineless ... Irish people " ? It's a wonder the 'Irregulars' did not strap those "spineless " civilians to landmines , is'nt it .... ?

Sharon .

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by ALpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:15Report this post to the editors

The fact that the majority of 'Staters' were in fact IRA men themselves doesnt seem worthy of a mention.

As the poster above states, these men gave as good as they got. Funny how the bomb that killed the free state soldiers was a justified action but anything against teh IRA is always a terrible act.

The majority of 1916 men went on to become the free state army. The majority of anti-treaty men later became Fianna Fail. The IRA is not the provos. Its the present day Irish defence forces and the government.

Can the author outline why they have posted this snippet? Its for nothing else other than provo PR. The fact that the provos point to these stories as terrible acts against hem speaks volumes considering they themselves still havent release the burial site of some of their victims, many of which had no connection to any form of war.

If you want to drag up old stories then the author should be prepared for some home truths concerning their beloved IRA.

author by Dalton,Gpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 13:21Report this post to the editors

Why is this thread started? To stir the pot for republican extremists and to try to give themselves some justification for their anti-democratic and fascist instincts. Mainstream republicans have at last realised the futility and immorality of violence yet there are still those slow learners around the fringes who want conflict for conflicts sake. By dragging up selective snippets from history, without any context, they try to justify themselves.

Both the victims and perpetrators of the Ballysheedy massacre had fought side by side a few short months previously under the democratically elected first Dail, but the democratic decision of the Irish people to accept the Treaty was rejected by a minority - and that led the road to civil war, and Ballyseedy.

author by roosterpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 13:31Report this post to the editors

"Can the author outline why they have posted this snippet? Its for nothing else other than provo PR. The fact that the provos point to these stories as terrible acts against hem speaks volumes considering they themselves still havent release the burial site of some of their victims, many of which had no connection to any form of war. If you want to drag up old stories then the author should be prepared for some home truths concerning their beloved IRA."


Simply put, this is just provo PR.

author by Edward Horgan - PANApublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 13:37Report this post to the editors

I come from the Tralee area, and my father was a friend of Stephen Fuller. I also spent 22 years in the Irish Army up until 1986, so I have connections on both sides of these tragic events. As a young teenager I attended the unvailing of the monument at Ballyseedy.

It is a mistake to forget these events or try to sweep them under the carpet. In all wars crimes are committed by both sides. In many respects all wars are crimes against humantiy. The idea of just war is becoming more and more discredited. There always is another and better way.
While remembering is important and relatively easy, forgiving is the hard part, but is also necessary towards establishing a lasting peace. Forgiving does not mean condoning or agreeing with the crimes of war, but without some forgiveness there can be no real peace.
While you think about Ballyseedy in the 1920s, thing also of what is happening in Iraq today, and our complicity in this tragedy by the US military abuse of Shannon airport. Lets hope the Iraqis forgive us in time.

author by Duinepublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 14:03Report this post to the editors

Bhfuil an duine seo ag maíomh gur ndearna na hainbhearta seo cionn is go raibh na daoine seo san arm?
Múineann an saol dúinn go mbíonn an dochar is an t-olc fite fúite i ngach duine, sa taobh dhorcha den anam mar a deir Jung.
Ar chúinsí áirithe tugtar cead dó.
Má fhéachann sibh olc ar an saol, is i gcroí an duine a mbíonn sé, ní i bpolaitíocht ná in éide airm a mbíonn sé.
Más mian libh athrú saoil a chur ann, is sa chroí is tús athraithe.

author by Éamonnpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 15:48Report this post to the editors

Ní aontaím in iomlán le mo “Dhuine” thúas. Cinte, is i gcroí na ndaoine a bhíonn cuid mhór den olcas, ach bíonn olchas freisin i gcúrsaí polaitíochta, agus clúaidithe in éide airm. Ta sé níos éascaidh éagcóir, no ainbhearta, a dhéanamh fé clúd grúpa nó creideamh éigean, mar shampla náisiúneachas, nó mar baill de airm, ná é a dhéanamh in aonair.

author by Dalton, Gpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 17:26Report this post to the editors

If you want to see the Irish Army in real action then go talk to the tens of thousands of people whose lives, limbs, and property they have saved over the past fifty years with the United Nations while gobshites at home in another so called 'army' made it their business to cause murder and mayhem, primarily focussed on their fellow countrymen.

The Irish Army, Ogaligh na hEireann have served with honour and dignity in: Lebannon, Zaire, Cyprus, West New Guinea, El Salvador, Kuwait, Angola, Cambodia, Somalia, Eritrea, Liberia, Hondouras, Bosnia Herzegovina, Kosovo, and Rwanda.

For a full list of the UN Missions our army has been on check out their website:

www.military.ie/overseas/missions-list.html

author by Old Soldierpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 17:47Report this post to the editors

I agree with Dalton that the Irish Defence Forces have done great work with UN peacekeeping. But now it is about to be used as part of the EU battlegroups, and part of George Bush's WAR OF TERROR. The first example of an EU battlegroups was the French intervention in Rwanda, operation Turquoise, sent in the rescue those who had committed the Rwandan Genocide, and it assisted their escape into the Zaire/Congo, thereby causing civil war in the Congo, but protecting French Francophone interests. Should we send Irish soldiers to die for French, German or British neo-colonial interests? I dont think so.
We also now have the Irish army at Shannon airport protecting the US military on their way to Iraq, where they have killed over 100,000 people in an unlawful war, contrary to the UN Charter. The Irish army should serve only the interests of the Irish people and the humanitarian interests of humanity, but should not be involved in murderous missions such as Iraq, or spurious EU so-called peace mission such as Turquoise in Rwanda and the more recent French led mission in Bunia in the Congo.
The Irish army should build on its peaceful traditions and also should avoid creating further divides within Ireland. I disagree also with what the IRA has done in Norhtern Ireland but I am very please to see them actively involved in politics without the Kalashnikov.
Peace be to you

author by Paulpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 17:56Report this post to the editors

The Irish Republican Army would not of had to exist, if the Irish Defence Forces had been sent to the centres of conflict in their own country, up here in the six counties.

Yes there are countless examples of soldiers from this island serving with distinction in foreign lands under the UN mandate.

There is also however a question to be asked that Irish people were sent to "trouble zones" to fight and die, when Irish citizens needed protecting from pro-british terror gangs, british soldiers and cops.

Has this question not been asked many times to serving Irish ( UN ) soldiers by besumed locals who knew about the legitimate armed struggle for irish national unity ?

author by current soldierpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 17:58Report this post to the editors

I agree with ed horgan that we need to remember the past however I also agree that this whole thread was started as a Provo PR thing but now its being used in the anti war thing. Remember soldiers have to obey lawful orders, currently the courts have not declared orders to protect shannon to be unlawful.

Many of us openly supported the protests
against the bush visit last year.

There is only one Oglaigh na hEireann and i am a proud member and proud to waer the uniform of this state. And the uniform dosnt include a balaclava !

author by Mepublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:07Report this post to the editors

I thought you were a member of An Garda Siochana.

author by Dalton, Gpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:23Report this post to the editors

As 'Current Soldier' points out, the defence forces follow orders, and policy is set by Dail Eireann. Your question should be focussed at the Dail and not Oglaigh na hEireann, but then you obviously haven't understood that in democracies the military are subservient to the elected representatives of the people, not the other way round.

The armys popularity with locals on the ground all over the world is a testament to the professionalism and cultural sensitivity with which they went about their work, and also the fact that we were not a former colonial power, and had managed a transformation from colony to democracy with relatively little bloodshed compared to others.

Your suggestion that the provos campaign was 'legitimate' has been argued up down and around on indymedia for a long time so we won't get into it, suffice it to say that we are on two different sides of that argument too.

As for the French involvement with various UN operations, the makeup of any particular force is decided by the UN and then constituent governments either agree or decline to get involved. Personally i dont think its helpful for any country to get involved in an operation where it might be seen to have interests other than those outlined in the mandate by the UN, but its the only system we have at the moment and have to work with it until we come up with somthing better.

author by Paulpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:39Report this post to the editors

Is it not a duty of any democratically elected government to protect its citizen's first ?

Can you justify the sending of irish citizens in the IDF to other countries, when irish people were suffering human right abuses at the hands of the british state, in thier own country ?

Can you please answer that democratically loaded question ?

author by Michaelpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 19:17Report this post to the editors

The DF should consider the laws of war, even when Dail Eireann, and the Irish High Court ignores them. You have individual responsibilities, as well all do, beyond what Irish law may say.

Judge Kearns pointed out in "Horgan v Ireland" that what's going on at Shannon Airport is -- as far as the laws of war are concerned -- is outside the realms of "neutrality". Those Americans are belligerents, and everyone who helps them - guarding them, transporting them, etc - is implicated in their actions.

When will an Irish soldier say, "wait a minute, I'm not participating in these international crimes!" As hundreds of American, British and Australian soldiers have done already?

When will an Irish soldier say, "I'm not going to guard these warplanes from being disarmed by other Irish people, peacefully and accountably!"?

Indeed, when will an Irish soldier say "Fuck this!" And arrest the foreign fighters, returning some dignity and safety to Shannon Airport?

author by Sharon. - Individual.publication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 20:56Report this post to the editors

In my first post , I stated -

"Others on this Forum will no doubt accuse you of 'living in the past ' : they will sneer at you and tell you to 'get over it ... ' "

--and ...true enough : 'Brian' stated - "Get over it, morons." Other than that , it IS an interesting debate !

"Edward Horgan" (PANA) stated -" While you think about Ballyseedy in the 1920s, thing also of what is happening in Iraq today, and our complicity in this tragedy by the US military abuse of Shannon airport. Lets hope the Iraqis forgive us in time."

-- Lets hope that the Iraq people realise that it is those in Leinster House , more so than the people here , that have been silent regarding U.S. (ab)use of Shannon .

Paul stated - "The Irish Republican Army would not of had to exist, if the Irish Defence Forces had been sent to the centres of conflict in their own country, up here in the six counties."

-- If only , Paul - we might very well have escaped the terror , or some/most of it , had action like that been taken . But there is still time for the 'Establishment' to redeem itself ; the conflict is not yet over , I fear .

Paul asked -- "Can you justify the sending of irish citizens in the IDF to other countries, when irish people were suffering human right abuses at the hands of the british state, in thier own country ?"

-- the politicians 'turned a blind eye and a deaf ear' to that fact , Paul , for the most part . And still do so .

Michael asked - "When will an Irish soldier say, "wait a minute, I'm not participating in these international crimes!" As hundreds of American, British and Australian soldiers have done already? "

--The 'Fightin' Irish ' ! Regardless of the 'Cause' involved , it seems . And provided it does not involve the Irish 'situation' . Spirit-less .

" When will an Irish soldier say, "I'm not going to guard these warplanes from being disarmed by other Irish people, peacefully and accountably!"? "

-- Those State soldiers are , apparently , not prepared to 'think' for themselves . I wonder if there are even murmurs amongst them regarding the morality of protecting U.S. warplanes on Irish soil ?



" Indeed, when will an Irish soldier say "Fuck this!" And arrest the foreign fighters, returning some dignity and safety to Shannon Airport? "

-- ...and returning some dignity to themselves , even at this late stage .

Sharon .

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by Duinepublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 21:34Report this post to the editors

Scríobh Éamonn;
Cúiseanna
by Éamonn Monday, Aug 22 2005, 2:48pm


Ní aontaím in iomlán le mo “Dhuine” thúas. Cinte, is i gcroí na ndaoine a bhíonn cuid mhór den olcas, ach bíonn olchas freisin i gcúrsaí polaitíochta, agus clúaidithe in éide airm. Ta sé níos éascaidh éagcóir, no ainbhearta, a dhéanamh fé clúd grúpa nó creideamh éigean, mar shampla náisiúneachas, nó mar baill de airm, ná é a dhéanamh in aonair.

Tagaim leat a Éamoinn, sa mhéid is gur folach é grúpa agus fiú "ídéalachas" éigin.
I ndeireadh na fríde, duine de dheoin féin, a dhéanann bearta. Ní rud teibí mar "arm" nó "saighdiúirí" a dhéanann.

author by Edward Horganpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 01:20Report this post to the editors

When will we ever learn, to just do ‘what is right because it is right’? We all got brains so that we could think for ourselves, so we have an obligation to use our intelligence to decide what is right. The civil war killings on both sides in the 1920s were wrong. Blindly following orders is always a convenient last resort of scoundrels. A soldier also has the ultimate duty to refuse to obey orders and do what is right in matters of life and death. What is happening at Shannon airport has so far assisted in the unlawful killing of over 100,000 people. This is not a ‘grey area’ this is mass murder. The Nuremberg Convention applies, and supersedes or over-rides the Irish Defence Acts.

author by Alpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:06Report this post to the editors

"Jaysus Al
by Me Monday, Aug 22 2005, 5:07pm


I thought you were a member of An Garda Siochana."

I am, I was merely pointing out that many of the 1916 men went on to form the DF and Gardai not too mention some of the less popular government parties.

If you want to get really into it then you have to remember that the Provos are a splinter group themselves from the 1970s decision to enter into talks and therefore they have very little, if any, connection with 1916.

The troubles were not, despite popular opinion, the works of the IRA as a whole but by a small number of hardliners that became the Provos. As time went on they grew bigger than the original IRA as they were still recruiting.

As for the ceasefire, this was brought in by Adams and McGuinness using stealth and was not supported by the majority of grass roots Provos. Its more luck than anything else that over time the process won support from 'soldiers' on the ground.

As for where this is going now, the DF have to obey orders, its a basic principle of any force but lets not start making something that isnt there. They arent killing people, they are protecting an airport. I also fail to see how you can disarm a warplane peacefully.

As for neutrality, can anyone here please explain where this divine stance comes from? Its not something that can be written in stone but more a decision taken as a situation dictates. It comes from the fact that Ireland refused to enter WW2. However we werent really neutral then either.

When it comes to Iraq I dont consider the US's actions to be above board, what Bush uses as reasons are smoke screens but the fact is Hussein was a dictator that was commiting mass murder and should have been removed years earlier. In fact the British caused this situation as much as America did.

The problem now is getting US forces out of Iraq and allowing Iraq to govern itself. They cant leave while there are daily bombings but yet the bombings are mainly against them, supposedly.

As for the df on UN duty. We have a fine tradition as far as western forces are concerned however the bulk of UN troops comes from African forces. The UN, for anyone not aware of this, is an alternative force for the US, Britain, France, Russia and China. Those nations decide where to send troops and then look to Africa for those troops. In fact the US has commited more UN troops to an area than any other yet supplies no troops for the missions.

author by Mepublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:46Report this post to the editors

So you admit to using aliases.

author by Current Soldierpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:52Report this post to the editors

Me, I am current soldier, I am not AL.

Its a pity u dont listen to the arguments instead of trying to find conspiracies that dont exist.

Al can you confirm that you are not current solider,

how can we prove this to a person who obviously already has their mind made up, I can see them now laughing in their pc in some left wing student union office or some SWP room somewhere

Al do you know what COD6 is?

author by Bettypublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:24Report this post to the editors

Use of force - current soldier. Got any hard ones?

author by Gerrypublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 13:04author email gerry.gerbil at gmail dot comReport this post to the editors

Paul wrote: "The Irish Republican Army would not of had to exist, if the Irish Defence Forces had been sent to the centres of conflict in their own country, up here in the six counties."

As I'm sure you know, there was serious consideration, after the current Troubles began, given by the Irish government to armed intervention in the North, to protect nationalists under sever attack from unionist paramilitaries and death squads. This would have led to war with the UK which the Republic would have lost at great cost. Thousands of people would have been killed. Such a war would have made the Troubles look like a tea party, and everyone in Ireland would have suffered, not just those in the North.

I've got to echo other folks' sentiments - WTF was this posted on this board? Call me naive but I always figured that the Indymedia board was for current events. not lachrymose propaganda about events 80 years ago. Sure, history is important and has a deep influence on today's reality, but there's a time and a place for it.

author by Alpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 13:29Report this post to the editors

Is Betty answering that question for me or not? I dont know what it is. COD to me means cash on delivery. Cant help notice another post by Betty that has no mention of the topic.

Where did 'me' get the conclusion that current soldier is me in disguise? Even stranger, how in gods green earth did 'me' believe that I was admitting to anything? I answered a question on my occupation. Never claimed to be or have anything to do with the defence forces, not even the boys with toys in the FCA.

I will repeat what I am sick of saying. I only post as Al, thats my name. On occasion an imposter or three will use my name to post stupid insulting comments, the reasoning for which I dont know. When this happens I post in that thread as Store street Al.

author by Current Soldierpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 13:41Report this post to the editors

Hi Al,

its current soldier, apparently people like me see a big conspiracy in everything.

As regards Betty, yesd apparently they answered for you.

COD6 is the principles used for the use of force.

Betty answer me this:
what is the new mortar called
what did it replace?
Where is it made?
Where is mortar ammunition made?
Who is OC E Bde

author by Bettypublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 14:06Report this post to the editors

Betty answer me this:
what is the new mortar called
VEKTOR 60mm

what did it replace?
Hotchkiss-Brandt 60mm (might have been others)

Where is it made?
Not sure

Where is mortar ammunition made?
South Africa

Who is OC E Bde
I don't know the name of the commanding officer of the Eastern Brigade. I'm not bothered.

author by of an Irish minoritypublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 14:47Report this post to the editors

Isn't it true that the majority of those who took up arms in the 1920s and survived to form the two states into which ireland was partitioned, or to fight against that partition had more in common with european continental fascism than any of their fans today and well wishers like to admit?
It seems the opening line is resonant, "the nazi within", because Ireland was built and fought over by fascists for fascists, and almost all state institutions and most certainly the constitution were fascistic.
Considering that, i don't know why you argue so much, fascist gunmen in uniform with the blessings of priests and nuns or fascist gunmen in balaclavas.

you're all the same and always were, cut of the same "might is right" cloth with a sprinkling of catholic holy water, and orphanages and covents full of fallen daughters, or "might is right" cloth with an orange embroidered scripture and palygrounds locked.

That is the home truth.

author by Current Soldierpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 15:09Report this post to the editors

I'm impressed, u seem to know a lot, are u a serving member or is it just internet information

ps the clincher is

how much did the original shipment of steyr rifles cost the state

author by Bettypublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 16:23Report this post to the editors

Oh jack of all trades and master of none.
Would the answer be about eight million in old money?

author by Backpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 16:43Report this post to the editors

The armaments of the present 26-Co military may be interesting, but I fail to see what all that has to do with the massacre at Ballyseedy.
Knew about the Ballyseedy one, but not Caherciveen and Killarney. Any more details on those?
I'm sure those incidents are only the tip of the iceberg.

author by current soldierpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 17:11Report this post to the editors

Would u believe they cost a mere shipment of surplus butter,

amazing but true

as regards the relevance as mentioned by another poster,

how is the massacre of ballyseedy relevant to today? except for the provos who have nothing to do with the brave men and women of the fight for independence. war is terrible and terrible things are done and all massacres are evil but so too are provos and their supporters

author by Bettypublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 17:33Report this post to the editors

"Would u believe they cost a mere shipment of surplus butter"

Was the eight million just their worth?

author by current soldierpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 17:39Report this post to the editors

apparently so but they aint worth it , u cant use them left handed and interestingly in line with this thread being about provo pr, anwser me this

why did the PDF only start using DPM uniforms in recent years?

answer cos otherwise the provies would be popping at us on the border and the brits would be doing likewise

same goes for choice of rifle, steyr was accepted even though the Kalasnikov or M16 were the preferred choices, u can see why these weapons were not chosen.

It continues through to today, like with the current purchase of helicopters, the pilots tested and wanted black hawks but they wouldnt be pc so again we are stuck with second best

author by Fitzpublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 03:20Report this post to the editors

Yesterday was the anniversary (Aug. 22, 1999) of the death of Breton sculptor and Irish Republican Yann Renard Goulet, the artist responsible for the Ballyseedy Monument.

Related Link: http://irishstruggle.blogspot.com/2005/03/march-6th-192....html
author by Michaelpublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 22:55Report this post to the editors

Good question... Though I don't have the figures at hand, I recall that Ireland paid, and continues to pay, far above the market price for their Austrian guns.

Around the time when the gov made a call for tender for rifles there was a break-in at a friend's office. The office was on Thomas Street, so burglaries happened on occasion. This time, however, the intruders did such a professional-looking job that the police the next morning asked my friend "do you do any defence business?" ...He was preparing a tender for the steyr contract actually. Oh, and his price would have been less than 1/4 what was finally accepted by the gov.

author by bertiepublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:58Report this post to the editors

Anyone with a contract to sell to the government is coining it...

author by Confusedpublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:09Report this post to the editors

What's the story with the butter thing? What is current soldier going on about if others are saying we are still paying for them? Confused

author by Current Soldierpublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:54Report this post to the editors

The butter thing as u refer to it was the payment for the original shipment of rifles, obviously as with any piece of machinery they continue to buy weapons to replace old ones, to get upgrades etc, its like a fellt of vehicles, they have a limited lifetime plus with the introduction of the rifle to reserve units more rifles are needed.

another example,
Irish Government decise to update air defence capabilities and purchase anti aircraft guns operated by radar from the Dutch military. Problem is, that the guns have a range of 5 miles or so, aircraft can deliver a missle from 25 miles away!

The dutch were delighted, they faced a massive mutli euro bill to scrap their weapons and instead made money on the deal

author by Who Ate All The Piespublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 14:56Report this post to the editors

Logistically, the IDF is a waste of the taxpayer's money.

You have cost the state a disproportionate amount of money to your usefulness.

The previous posts from serving "soldiers" shows the joke that passes for a military wing of the state.

Local issues have more relevance to the IDF structures than the issue of national security.

Toy soldiers have more relevance to protecting the integrity and development of the state, then these parade dollies.

author by Current Soldierpublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 15:01Report this post to the editors

To clarify a few points

1) dont ever caller the Irish Defence Focres the IDF thats the acronoym used to describe the murderous Israeli military

2) I agree with u about the cost of the military but u may not believe it but to koin the EU we needed to have an army

3) Abuse deleted. Normally the whole comment is hidden. Check the editorial guidelines.

author by Alpublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 18:01Report this post to the editors

National security is actually the responsibility of the Gardai. The defence forces are there to fight an invading force. Not sure why or where this arrangement came from.

Also as a back up to the Gardai in cases of national emergency. This begs the question, wouldnt it be easier and more straight forward if the defence forces were responsible for state security to begin with?

author by oinkpublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 22:17Report this post to the editors

we discovered that budgetary evidence and release of files in both the irish and british state had proven beyond doubt that national security is not the sole responsibility of the Gardaí Siochana, though many rank and file gardaí like to think so. "national security" is in fact a joint operation of the ministries of justice and defence. We have a regular little paranoid look at them you know, and representatives of both ministries attended the last EU level meeting on such matters in the Hague.

2005
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=68750
2004
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62498
2003
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=45130
2002
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=17950

author by Alpublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 23:15Report this post to the editors

All the links speak about cash only, no evidence whatsover claiming that the Irish defence forces have any responsibility for State security. Please provide a single quote from a believable source which shows that another agency deals with state security. In fact, I remember the threads you linked to. I posted in them, the secret fund was for Garda use to pay informants and pay for witness protection. No use by the defence forces at all.

I can provide this:

"Today, the Garda Síochána (meaning in English: "The Guardians of the Peace") as the national police service, exercises all police functions in the country. It provides the State security services and all criminal and traffic law enforcement functions are performed by it." - Garda website (http://www.garda.ie/angarda/history.html)

The fact that the mission statement of An Garda Siochana is "community commitment, personal protection and state security" Obviously went over your head.

How about this?
"to aid the civil power (meaning in practice to assist, when requested, the Garda Síochána, who have primary responsibility for law and order, including the protection of the internal security of the State)" (http://www.military.ie/introduction/index.html)

You bloody fool, both the Gardai and the defence forces state that its the Gardai that look after state security.

the defence forces have no authority or jurisdiction on Irish soil without the Gardai.

author by oinkpublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 23:30Report this post to the editors

Thats quite an assertion which if true (which it isn't) would reflect very badly on the investment in national security, which is both internal and external security of the state. If this was a taxpayers site, exploring tax paying issues we would make an article about it and take action, be activists.
Its a lot of money for protection and grasses isn't it?

author by iosafpublication date Fri Aug 26, 2005 15:50Report this post to the editors

you're both in cyberspace now. You can't see each other, you can't ask each other outside, you're not really able to bring this thing further. This article is supposed to be about a discussion of an event which occured early on in the history of the Irish state.
In many ways it laid the foundations of certain unusual characteristics of the Irish state, why are the irish army limited in power or action, and very deep sources of hurt, hatred and antagonism between the section of Irish society that "won" and "lost" that war.

Oink, you're not going to stop Al posting. But i you have a genuine complaint take it to the list. & no-one has a monopoly on insulting or feeling insulted on this site.

Al, like it or not man, there are many people here who don't like you, not only becuase of your job, but also because they style you dismiss their comments, you have to remember you told them about your job, as long as you post under the name al, many people are going to log on - go to the latest comments page and see "cop" and oddly enough if you were sweet as pie I don't think you'd avoid taunts, because you're a garda. For many protesters and especially young politicals you're not really regarded as a friend, and if you trawl the archives you'll see why. You may be an imc commentator for a few hours a day, but the rest you could be the boy in blue hassling a dope smoker, a skateboarder, a protester, an immigrant, or bringing a kid who shoplifted food to court.
If I were you, I'd try posting comments under a different name for a few days, and if you notice a markedly different response, tell us next week. ;-)

author by Alpublication date Fri Aug 26, 2005 16:21Report this post to the editors

Fair enough Iosef. I wont change my name, for better or worse Im sticking. If I changed my name those that accuse me of being multiple users would be correct.

As for my job, I appreciate Im never gonna have many fans, but if you have a problem then debate it with me instead of being childish. Honestly, does Oink do anarchism any favours?

As for this thread. I posted already about my feelings, the IRA scream blue murder when they come under fire yet they have commited some of the worst acts in the land.

Selective memories only work when your dealing with people who are incapable of independent thought.

author by Barrypublication date Fri Aug 26, 2005 16:40Report this post to the editors

I think what he means is sometimes Al makes legitimate points that arent debated because of hostility to his background . It would be better if those points were actually debated . When I began posting here it was similar . There were even those who demanded I be deleted because IMC doesnt give a platform to facists . Its patently obvious that neither myself or 32csm are actually facist or right wing but nontheless abuse rather than debate was the order of the day . Unfortunately I was pretty new to this internet lark and often foolishly responded in kind . Anyway , that seems a dim and distant memory by this stage and shows what happens when you persevere and try and argue a point rather than just argue for the sake of it .

My advice to Al would be persevere with his own name though . I dont agree with a lot of what he says but surely if your own argument is more sensible it should be fairly straightforward to pick his apart . I have noticed hes gotten a lot more right wing lately and surprisingly a little nasty . Too many late nights or maybe " Mr Big" slipped through his clutches , yet again ?

author by enoughisenoughpublication date Fri Aug 26, 2005 16:44Report this post to the editors

Stick to the issue please.

author by Barrypublication date Fri Aug 26, 2005 16:59Report this post to the editors

What is the issue anyway ? Ballyseedy , Steyr rifles , the free state budget or the pre-eminence of the IDF vs Garda siochana in security matters ?
As the thread began with the story of how opponents of the state were massacred by its defenders one would think that an exchange between an opponent of the state and on of its defenders regarding how the public percieve them was at least slightly relevant .

author by enufpublication date Fri Aug 26, 2005 17:10Report this post to the editors

What I meant was that taunting Al about "Mr Big" is not the issue, and does not provide information.

author by Alpublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:47Report this post to the editors

Ah lads relax, no point in getting hot and bothered over.

Personally I would like to here more from Soldier about his dislike of the Steyr rifle. Having spoken to many soldiers I was under the impression that it was a high quality weapon and very popular. I was aware of the left hand issue. Is that a problem unique to the Steyr?

author by design classicpublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 14:34Report this post to the editors

the left hand problem is reported with the AK47 the largest circulation assualt rifle commonly known as the "kaleshnikov", several Isreali manufactured weapons as well and the US "M series" assualt rifles.
There has also been hand dominance issues in Garda standard issue Smith & W hand arms.

There are numerous sites on arms, weapons and the use of force, on the internet. I think it would inappropriate to leave such links here, as this site is supposed to act to foment pacifist politics.

google and you will find the website for you.

author by pacifistpublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 14:58Report this post to the editors

Ironically the Ak47 was given a "design classic" award by a British based fashion magazine in 1997.
So called for its "reliable" action at extreme temperatures, this rifle was found in the last 40 years from the frozen north to subsaharan africa and everywhere proved capable of killing and maiming. "a good weapon" is one that kills.

& not just those the bullets were fired at, the kickback on a AK47 is enough to change the normal development of a child's body. In 1998 UNICEF estimated 300,000 children globally were being used or trained as soldiers. The weapon of choice was the AK47.

http://www.child-soldiers.org/
http://www.mapw.org.au/childsoldiers/childind.htm
http://www.enfant-soldat.be (French); http://www.kindsoldaat.be (Flemish)
http://www.coalico.org
http://www.kindersoldaten.info
http://www.bambinisoldato.it
http://www.cns.org.py
http://www.child-soldiers-mena.org
http://www.menoressoldado.org
http://www.us-childsoldiers.org

Every September the largest arms fair in northern Europe is held in the UK., many of us will remember that the only occassion this fair has been disrupted was the morning of September 11, 2001.

"This September, ExCel in east London will again become the focus of the world arms market. Buyers and sellers will spend four days in each others' company making sure that no opportunity is missed for spreading weaponry around the world...."

You are invited to play your part in fighting the business and culture of arms.
http://www.caat.org.uk/armsfairs/index.shtml
And to set up a campaign against the arms trade and the culture of weapons in your local area, see this site for details and advice. Not till the idea of armed force which is so internalised in the security services and entertainment industries of developed states is tackled will we begin to stop this suffering globally. There has been a marked increase in the sale of arms and weapon technology in the last 10 years to police forces in the USA and EU. As police forces become increasingly paramilitarised and their recruits accordingly more eager to play soldiers, the arms manufacturers have recouped sales and profit margins which were lost due to the succesful campaigns to ban their products in third world countries.



http://www.caat.org.uk/

author by Barrypublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 16:18Report this post to the editors

Unlike the Brits SA 80, which is shit.

author by Alpublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 21:13Report this post to the editors

Pacifist,
While I thank you for the information your opinions are naive in the extreme.

Please advise what a police officer should do when faced with a semi-automatic?

For that matter please advise how to best arrest a violent person who has, for example, a large knife and is trying to use it against you.

Please advise the best way to handle a person who is about to shoot their partner/children/etc and wont answer the phone or speak with you.

Maybe in a world where weapons didnt exist what you say would work but there are weapons in every persons home as Raheny demonstrated. You tell those officers that they are "playing soldier" and in fact, shouldnt even need a baton.

author by roosterpublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 21:28Report this post to the editors

Mrs McBride did'nt think so!

author by Barrypublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 21:36Report this post to the editors

Peter McBride was an innocent youngster who never harmed you or anyone else .
This unnecessary comment could genuinely hurt his family members , I hope itll be deleted .

author by roosterpublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 22:15Report this post to the editors

when you constantly revel in the suffering of others!

author by barrypublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 22:25Report this post to the editors

where is this revelry ?

Peter McBride was a totally innocent civilian . He wasnt a member of any political or paramilitary organisation . Surely if you want to insult people you could easily have chosen someone who was an active participant in the conflict rather than a wholly innocent victim .

If I was to make jokes about Kingsmills , Darkley or or the Shankill Id quite rightly be lambasted as a sicko .

Your comment is in very poor taste and wouldnt surprise me if that was the attitude of the rest of your comrades in the barracks towars the deaths of innocent civilians - sick mockery and gloating . One reason why people went to a lot of trouble shooting at yourselves in return .

author by roosterpublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 22:32Report this post to the editors

try again oppo.

author by Shipseapublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 22:33Report this post to the editors

Your comment is utterly repulsive and should be withdrawn.

author by roosterpublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 22:43Report this post to the editors

Barry said the sa80 was shit and I'm saying its not as shit as everyone says.

author by Shipseapublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 23:04Report this post to the editors

You think THAT justifies your sick joke?

author by Barrypublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 23:28Report this post to the editors

well if you admit everyones saying its a shit rifle there is a fair chane it is , possibly , a shit rifle .

author by pacifistpublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 23:30Report this post to the editors

your house which i presumed has a well stocked larder and can probably provide me without ingredients to blow it to simithereens or assemble a whole range of weapons varying from mortar to hand launched.
But I'm not going into your house.
I realise the use of arns issue is considerably more important to those who have them, or use them in the course of their work such as farmers, soldiers or in certain cases security personel. I also realise you only think in terms of Ireland so I'll modify security personel to gardaí. Your interest in arms is influenced by your job. My opposition to arms and my consistent campaiging on the issue at global and grass roots level was at first due to my job and further experiences. I sat down with high ranking police officers and explained at length my thoughts and the thoughts of my community. & they and others concened followed our collective advice for a while. Less of them were shot. Less civilians (us lot) were shot.

I could probably stand as good a go as you in disarming your hypothetical dagger wielding thug.
& indeed I might have done it more times than you have, Al. Now as was written before, there are many sites you can look at to learn about arms.
But you and your generation of policing professionals will not be armed at your request a long as I and my peers are watching you.

That is for "your safety" and "our safety".
For the naïve one on this page is you Sir.

====
you are all invited to attend this year's anti arms fair. same as last year, same as next. Organised Crime together we'll crack it.
http://www.caat.org.uk/armsfairs/index.shtml

author by roosterpublication date Sun Aug 28, 2005 14:34Report this post to the editors

the sa80 has been replaced in most units by the sa80 mk2, a completely new weapon, all military kit has teething problems and this was a completely revolutionary weapon system.

I'm touched by Barrys concern for the kit I'm being issued with!

author by Alpublication date Sun Aug 28, 2005 15:13Report this post to the editors

Pacifist,
How can a person who claims to be a pacifist have the arrogance to claim he might possible come into contact with more dangerous and violent people than a police officer?

To use your own example, yes most homes do have the ingredients for a bomb however I was refering to knifes.

Once again I ask you how you would respond to the examples I give above if weapons were not issued to police officers? Once again I ask how we, as police officers, should respond to a samurai sword, baseball bat, knife? The simple fact is you have no answer and once again the arguement against weapons falls apart like it always does.

Yet another example of a person making a comment with no knowledge, experience or even common sense. Deciding for others the best way to do our jobs. To be honest it sickens me that your high and mighty approach is the very reason why Gardai are not given basic protective tools. Tell the Gardai in Store Street, Finglas and Raheny that they shouldnt even have a baton.

BTW, I never stated I wanted a gun.

author by pacifistpublication date Sun Aug 28, 2005 17:11Report this post to the editors

Well, those who chose careers in professional policing are offered many opportunities to reflect on the dangers their jobs involve, and they are not policy makers nor the only interested parties in creating peaceful conditions in the community.

I was engaged in one of the 6 "non politically related" gun amnesties of the last 8 years in the UK, in an area of London, where more guns and knives were _handed in_ than are estimated to be present in your state, excluding politically related armed group arsenals Garda.

That amnesty resulted from a complete breakdown of local policing, in a borough the population of which is greater than postal districts Dublin 1,3,5,7,9,11.
That amnesty was based on key grass root demands, softening of certain laws, and a cross community agreement that what you may call "gang warfare" could not be tackled by the policing authority as they had lost confidnce of the community, were out gunned and didn't even have the same colour skin.
That amnesty was brokered at assistant commissioner, Westminister MP, and House of Lords representative level- Garda.

You Sir, are very naive if you believe that continuing to arm policing professionals is the best solution to increased use of arms in crime in european cities, or is the favoured approach at European Level, at puplic inquiry level, at Opinion forming Media level, at penology academic level, even (whatever they say to you the boys and girls on the front" those at rank of higher than superintendent).
There is much politics played with this, naturally no political party which counts on home owners votes and small business folk who can not afford certain security systems will say it is actively "opposing" arming the police or gardaí, but that is the clear policy.

You are at end Garda, a young man who chose a career which increases your risk of being a victim of violence, as it also increases your chances of being the perpetrator a needless violent act.

You belong to a very clear section of the community, a minority one, which relies on positive passive community support which you might be lucky to count on in your little city. But increasingly you are not. That is of great concern to many. But the moment you resign its different.

In answer to what a garda should do faced with a samurai sword or other implement,
Your professional body, the Garda Siochaina have purchased (along with the extra-state police organisation they liase closely with on all matters and who regularly loan them equipment of give assistance) some of the best blunt trauma protective wear available on the market, which is designed to work with your training and help protect you from serious injury even with a sword.
For very complicated reasons, you don't really find real samurai swords on the streets of Dublin, and that criminal attacking you is not in the Kill Bill movie. Any attempt to sharpen the alloys these ornamental weapons are made from degrades the cutting edge. So, Garda, you are hypthotecially being hit with a "sharp looking blunt instrument".
= Blunt trauma. Ask your senior officers for the appropriate armour.
In answer to what a garda should do faced with an automatic weapon, the answer is pretty much the same as that for a civilian - "get out of the way".
The difference being you have radio backup, you have peers, very expensive logistic and support systems, and you are protected by heavier sentances.
The option (_"you are not asking for"_) is that you be allowed to return or offer first fire. That moves quickly to you being allowed to kill.

Those who employ you, have given much thought to the patterns of escalation throughout the EU and how best to "protect" civilians, and afterwards "you" from armed criminals.
You have very little idea, (I presume - correct me if you're wrong) how to rent or buy a fire arm or ammunition for firearms in dublin.
I also hope, (tell me its true) that you have not seen medium automatic arms used on the streets of your beat.

Your lack of pacifistic sentiment is based on a very personal understanding of your worth to society.
Not by political background, not by political acheivement, it may not be counted in lives saved.

As we know, you have radio back-up, your force could issue you with body armour, your force are supposed to train you in hand to hand combat, and the penalties are tough for anyone attacking you. That : too many is enough.

There will always be others who want to be gardaí.

Only in very difficult situations does recruitment for the job drop, and those situations in europe always follow escalation patterns of arms availability and use. By which stage there is generally an effort made to "purge" policing forces of unwanted elements at your rank. There has been only one exception to that generality in the EU. in the last 6 years.

Now Al, I'm not the only reader or contributor to this site, who has been directly involved in such policy making decisions. If you feel strongly on the issue -Would you write an article on these issues from your point of view, and enter the process of peer appraisal?

========================================
you are all invited to attend this year's anti arms fair. same as last year, same as next.
Organised Crime together we'll crack it.
http://www.caat.org.uk/armsfairs/index.shtml

author by intriguedpublication date Sun Aug 28, 2005 17:20Report this post to the editors

has brought the casual reader to the actions the Gardaí ought be allowed. Hmmmm. Thats 80 years of progress.
Not odd, in the last 25 years, the most serious incidents the Irish Army have seen have been when they acted in concert with the Gardaí, if not -the most serious incidents for the Irish army have been based on disciplinary matters in their own ranks.

Thus, 80 years after Ballyseedy, to discuss the "irish army" and its issues now, is to discuss the increasing calls from certain elements in Irish society for a more militarised police force.

This is an issue.
We should read an article.

author by :-) - pass it on.publication date Sun Aug 28, 2005 18:07Report this post to the editors

Spearhead Exhibitions Ltd organise "the worlds biggest" weapons fair, that runs from 13 - 16 September at London's ExCel Centre in the Docklands, described by Mayor Ken Livingstone as,"..a disgrace and ought to be denounced by all Londoners".

Many Londoners are denouncing it, and are organising to protest against this event, and to ultimately, shut it down. The last time this fair took place was two years ago, when police used new anti-terror laws for the first time, on peacefull protestors, and cost Londoners 4million.

This years event looks to be no different, with a 'Public Protection Route Closure' to come into force from September 11, to help 'protect' the visitors and exhibitors who include companies from Israel, Croatia, China, Jordan, India, Pakistan, and of course the UK's very own EDO MBM, who have been receiving heavy police support in there attempts to halt local protests.

You can learn more information on how to get involved, or to, like Mayor Ken Livingstone, have your voice heard, by following any of these links;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/08/276066.html
http://www.caat.org.uk/armsfairs/action.shtml
http://www.caat.org.uk/armsfairs/dseiprotests.shtml
http://www.dsei.org/
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/08/321169.html

Below is some usefull information on how these weapons sold at the London Arms Fair, are being used:

http://www.landmineaction.org/problem.asp
http://www.amnesty.org/resources/flash/svaw/womenunderfire/eng/
http://www.peopleandplanet.org/armstrade/
http://www.iansa.org/
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/london/2005/08/321147.html

long copy and paste from another site snipped -ed

author by pacifistpublication date Sun Aug 28, 2005 20:45Report this post to the editors

Al in my first comment
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=71624&condense_comments=false#comment119701
I invited people to support anti-arms campaign as every year and gave links to the anti-child soldier info sites.
you replied
"While I thank you for the information your opinions are naive in the extreme."
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=71624&condense_comments=false#comment119719
to which i replied
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=71624&condense_comments=false#comment119743
a comment which touched on the ease of making weapons and my past in negotiating with high level police officers.

You then wrote "How can a person who claims to be a pacifist have the arrogance to claim he might possible come into contact with more dangerous and violent people than a police officer?......Yet another example of a person making a comment with no knowledge, experience or even common sense."
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=71624&condense_comments=false#comment119774

To which I responded with a little bit more detail to my past in the following comment.
Now what galls me, and other users is that you presume too often, that you alone are qualified to comment on police or security matters, you have registered today another slight, yet another insult directly put to another user, and via that user to the collectives mentioned and represented.
Do you honestly think a global network which supports many issues is made over years by people who don't know what they're talking about? Do you think the London gun amnesty was copied by the city of New York because of "yet another person with no knowledge, experience or even common sense"?

Do you think we are all liberal little middle class kids in the suburbs of Dublin?

Do you think the regular contributors who have spent time in the middle east, in iraq, in south america have not seen arms used?

Do you think yours is the only life which has seen dangerous situations?

Do you think the cops answer calls for every house and road in a few minutes?

Before that gun amnesty was passed, we as a street took down a 19 year old kid who had been hung on coat hangers off the roof a high rise block of flats, the cops nor the fire brigade weren't touching the "crime scene".
He bled to death on the pavement. One unlucky crack dealer who had try to sell on the wrong turf.


Do you think the readership "in ireland" is so insulated from real life that they could not if they wished obtain and use fire-arms?

Who do you think you are leaving your comments for?

Is your commenting activity a little fill-in for the pub?
Is it a chat on politics and judging by your record, a regular little argument about the north or chance to tell us about the garda's life?
How would you define a pacifist?
On this thread above a former soldier of your local army has left a comment, he's a prominent pacifist. I'm sure he might have seen more aggro than you.

You really are "the child" here. Every day you dismiss other comments without any inklnig of who made them. Thats very presumptious. And you have absolutely no idea of how to combat arms proliferation in cities,
r how to deal with policing community issues,
or even how to garner sympathy for your generation of "new cops" here in this forum.

*************************************************
Everyone is still invited to CAAT's gig.
see UK indymedia feature for details.

author by jane's defence dailypublication date Sun Aug 28, 2005 22:38Report this post to the editors

Attention Current Solider. If you're a solider, then your knowledge of firearms is limited (and it appears so is the knowledge of just about every other poster on this subject in this thread).

The Ak-47 hasn't been manufactured for years. Could you possibly be refrerring o the AKM or the Ak-74? The "Kalasnikov" (sic) was *never tested by the Irish Army.

The provos don't use the M16. It was a dismal weapon in the early days anyway. They use(d) basically the Armalite AR-15, but mostly AK knockoffs from Czechoslovakia, provided by Libya (whose terrorism-supporting dictator got the message from Bush and caved in recently, thankfully). Doesn't gell well with the politics of many, to admit it though.

Barry's comments about the SA-80 are as dated as the rest of his postings. The Mk2 is a fine weapon. As is the Steyr...

Related Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74
author by Current Soldierpublication date Sun Aug 28, 2005 23:50Report this post to the editors

Sorry Janes Defence Weekly,

but in relation to the AK47 I was making that reference to the most commonly used name of the weapon family, of course these weapons have been copied and mass produced by most of the old warsaw pact nations, china and even nations such as Finland (Valmet) and Israel (Galil) and the Irish army did indeed test this ewapon family prior to the adoption of the Steyr in the late 1980's

Again in relation to the IRA never using M16's its not true but yes there wepaon of choice was the Armalite thus coining the phrase of the Armalite and the Ballot Box, also agreed that in its early development the M16 was indeed a troublemsome weapon.

Finally the Steyr, I agree its a fine weapon in terms of accuracy, obviously aided by the optical sight however it has major drawbacks. Firstly the standadr 5.56mm round has no stopping power and while more ammo can be carried , automatic fire will not compensate for the smaller round as accuracy is lost totally on auto fire. The previous weapon being 7.62 mm could stoip an elephant, blast through concrete walls and would certainly ensure enemy soldiers atyed down. Secondly as the rifle is cmaller and lighter it is not as roboust as the pervious FN rifle. Thirdly compared to the previous weapon it has to many parts requires too much field care and is quite complicated, oveall bullpup designs have never proved fantastic unbless maybe the french FA MAS. My comments are based on personal feelings, I prefer the FN to the steyr.

As regards the SA80 it has been improved but its still a very much defective weapon which jams easily under harsh conditions such as the desert , why do Brit special forces use american assault rifles?

However I must concede that the Steyr comes out better when matched against other countries in shooting competitions, or maybe its just the people that use them that are better.

Anyone can go online and surf info about weapons you know , it dont make you an expert. PS. to prove I am a soldier what shouldl I tell you?

author by Barrypublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 01:23Report this post to the editors

The SA 80 is still a piece of over complicated crap despite its modifications . You cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear .

Prior to the importation of the Libyan supplied Romanian AKs , the weapon of choice for Irish guerillas was the Armalite AR 18 or when available the AR180 . With its folding butt and magazine capacity of 40 rounds it was a fearsome little rifle ideally suited to urban warfare in particular . Interestingly it was specifically designed for manufacture by 3rd world countries with only a light engineering capacity . Strange that despite its popularity on these shores no-one ever sought a license here to manufacture it . This may have saved the Irish taxpayer a great deal and created jobs into the bargain .

Its design has stood the test of time and has recently been resurrected in the US for manufacture yet again for purely civilian use , although this time with a fixed butt due to regulations .

author by Alpublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 01:40Report this post to the editors

Now now Pacifist. 2 posts at me without giving me a chance to respond.

I dont shout down everyone, did I shout down current soldier? No, I asked his opinion because as a soldier he has far more knowledge of his weapon than I do.

Now, I could go on forever however I will simple state. Yes, I do presume my knowledge is better than yours because I have experience and increase my experience everyday. You are not a cop, you dont work in security and your not a soldier. You sit on a committee and a talk group, do a lot of kniting when your there?

Where the hell do you live anyway? According to you weapons arent a problem in North Dublin but your street is an absolute warzone which is where you gained all your experience.

Oh BTW, your story didnt mention any violence against you, it didnt mention you having to disarm a person, arrest a person or in fact, have any dealings with the violent person.

Radio back up? And what the hell is that going to do when faced with a deadly weapon? Yet again you ignore the questions.

I will listen to those that show and have more experience or training than myself as this very discussion proves. I accepted your information on the Steyr, in fact I have stayed out of that debate because the people speaking know more than I do. Possible a soldier has seen more violence than I have but thats not a given. Not all soldiers go on UN duty. Its only you that I have a problem with because only you are trying to dictate a job you have no experience in.

As for your questions, I post to point out flaws in comments, sometimes to improve my own knowledge or sometimes simple to dicuss an article.

I think I have as much right to post as you do and considering posters like you are attempting to interfere and dictate what tools I use in my job I think its important to show when your wrong.

Now, I have had the decency to answer your questions, will you answer mine or will I simple assume you have no answer?

Oh, before I forget, go down Mary Street into Mullets sports shop and then tell me theres no samurai swords in Ireland. Look in your kitchen and tell me theres no large dangerous knifes, look in a butchers or a restaurant. Now go to a gun club.

Are you aware that there are over 250,000 registered shotguns in Dublin alone? 100,000 rifles? weapons exist, that will never change.


Soldier / anyone,
Can you offer any personal insights into other weapons? Such as Mp5?

author by Current Soldierpublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:24Report this post to the editors

This is the best sub machine gun out there , its flexible , light wiegiht, has a high rate of fire however in military terms its limited because only special forces use them. Most armies have long since dispensed with issuing sub machine guns on general service, this is due primarily to the smaller designs of assault rifles and the smaller rounds now used. The last sub machine gun used by the Irish Army weas the Swedish made Carl Gustav which was dangerous and unpredictable. The Steyr can beused in sub machine gun form. H&K MP5 and others are more suited to police and special forces use,where close quarter fighting is the norm.

Range is the main difficulty with sub machine guns. Steyr rifles can in most soldiers hands hit enemy troops at ranges of 300 yards with effective fire, so its not much use having a sub machine gun at these ranges.

PS I agree the SA80 is an overcomplicated piece of crap which was built simply because the British government wanted to issue a British made weapon. Indeed its early test variants were chambered for 4.85mm rounds, its only real saving grace is the susat sight however like most sights including the steyr, after a period of running or in situations of stress and tiredness its hard to concentrate and use the sight effectively,u need to be a certain distance and angle from the sight, bring back the old sights, quick and effective and a real skill to master.

author by pacifistpublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 17:04Report this post to the editors

I don't believe you're a garda. As most gardaí would also mention the level of threat faced by nurses and emergency medical response teams.

In fact, I think you're a fantasist. & a contributor to this site who has so far confined himself to comments alone and consistently dismisses the opinions of others. You have not written a single article or taken part in one campaign. Yet you're using up space.

Taken in consideration with the other contributors with whom you exchange opinion, and the nature of the content you have slowly introduced to this website and your refusal to broaden our opìnions by writing an article and engaging in criticism of exchange of views, I think you are disrupting the normal interchange of opinion and information on this site.

I have key experience in this area of community policing, and having been on crime scenes such as the one I described know what I'm talking about. Lets suffice for a moment to say "i am a shadowy anarchist", just you like you get to read about in your tabloid newspapers on an annual basis that are heading your way to put the shits up the gardaí. And as such, I have a "handle with care order", you as "plod" have to go very easy with me if you cross my path, because my legal representation is so terribly good. (we exchange phone numbers at the end of those little meetings) And so, I have a very big list of telephone numbers which includes investigative journalists, and law enforcement personel in many states including yours of Ireland.

Now, we can go several ways, your constant dismissal of others' contributions and opinions, with little jibes thrown in which would be more fitting to a right wing or fascist site, demonstrate to me [and others] that you are *a liar*.

I phoned members of the Gardaí yesterday,and I know how many serious incidents there have been where arms have been used in raheny garda station as well as several others. Raheny is not the worst.

That information is not in the public domain, but if you really are a cop, you can get an estimate.

Your estimate is good - maybe you're not a liar.

Your estimate is not forthcoming - you're a liar and a troll. "al the wannabee garda" who wants to talks to soldiers. As was said, google- you'll find the site for you.


______________________________________
You are all invited to this years anti arms fair in London.


http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/08/276066.html
http://www.caat.org.uk/armsfairs/action.shtml
http://www.caat.org.uk/armsfairs/dseiprotests.shtml
http://www.dsei.org/
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/08/321169.html

http://www.landmineaction.org/problem.asp
http://www.amnesty.org/resources/flash/svaw/womenunderfire/eng/
http://www.peopleandplanet.org/armstrade/
http://www.iansa.org/
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/london/2005/08/321147.html

author by Noelpublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 17:10Report this post to the editors

The problem is not with any weapon but with the individuals that use them,

what about an anti gun user campaign,

i mean how many people are killed by cars each year where is the anti-car campaign?

get real guns dont kill people

people kill people

stop being politically correct

author by pacifistpublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 17:26Report this post to the editors

We found in London that the availability of cheap high calibre ammunition was directly linked to the war in the balkans. That finding has been confirmed in the last 4 years, the majority of ammunition on the black market in Europe originally was distributed in the Balkans.
We found the second most likely point of origin for arms was the police themselves. No-one can guarantee that policeman or policewoman on the beat can guard thier weapon, and an unacceptable amount of hand arms, and automatic weapons have been stolen from police officers during the course of their duty. That has occured in Dublin as well on more than one ocassion. Public opinion might like to link criminal arsenals with previous political armed groups but that does not match with fact.
We have also found that use of arms, escalates, in the case of the gun amnesty, the majority of weapons handed in did not come from residents of the borough engaged directly in crime, but they had come from ethnic origins or had close ties to migrant groups where arms are acceptable and arms training common place.

Increased use of arms, relies on cheaper ammunition. As a local example in Dublin a gun cost 1000IR pounds to hire in the early 1990s.
This led to the first "Gun crises" in Ireland, as previously mostly adjusted shotguns (sawn off) had been used.
The quality of guns available was low, and the ammuntion was costly, forensic calibre testing offering an immediate trace of the gun if fired.

Since police guns entered the black market the cost of hiring or buying guns has dropped substantially. Since the Balkans war, the european back market has been swamped with cheap high quality weapons. That is not politically correct.
It is fact.

Arming ordinary rank and file police officers in either the UK or Ireland is not the proper solution to the use of arms in society and will only lead as it has led every time before to escalation arms use, and demand for arms, and the statistics on gun wounds and gun deaths bear that out completely.

like I said before, there is now a new generation of police officers throughout europe, who are better trained and better equiped than at any comparitive stage in the past. That ought be enough, in the UK the national crime intelligence unit has increased its budget by over 2000% in the last 6 years to tackle the supply of guns and ammunition, that is the proper way to remove the gun from our streets.
Whilst accordingly the Home Office and most recently (on a local basis) the Irish ministry of Justice have studied the use of non-lethal weapons as options to fire arms.

And any cop who doesn't like that,
can always find another job.
And any one who wants to be a cop
or a soldier under these circumstances
contributes to the problems of our society,
and must be considered as such-
an emergent violent element.

"dear mom, I'm ok, I'm working for the government now, and can't write as often as before"
"dear mom, I'm ok, I'm working for the government now, and can't write as often as before"

author by Noelpublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 17:38Report this post to the editors

As I said, the problem is people not machines

A gun is a machine, in the right hands its a work of art and an admirable skill

in the wrong hands it kills people

like a car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

people are the problem,

what about some statistcis about the users of guns!!!!!!!!

Not politically correct is it

who uses guns in Britain, where are they from, what is their social background

dont blame guns tackle the real issue of the type of individual that uses guns,

u know what i mean!

author by Alpublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 17:55Report this post to the editors

First of Pacifist, please define how I can prove my occupation? Considering you are now resorting to the usual crap about me not being a Garda. Oh I didn’t mention DFB or nurses, well that proves it. If you really knew me as well as you thought you would know I have spoken in detail enough to prove my occupation. But hey, it’s easier to shout accusations than just accept your wrong, isn’t it? And this coming from a man who hasnt disclosed his occupation or even his name.

I find even the suggestion that Gardai in Raheny gave out information to you to be ridiculous. First off, its privileged information, secondly, we have better things to do than build databases for you.

You attempts to push me into disclosing information are laughable. But how about if I tell you something now restricted but not common knowledge either? How about if I tell you Store Street, Pearce Street and Blanchardstown operate a 'Boulevard unit' operation? How about Store Street being the 'c' district, Fitzgibbon Street the 'U'. How about the fact that the GRA want 12 uniform Gardai and 1 uniform Sergeant to be authorised to use firearms in every District? I know, I will tell you my shoulder number, no actually I wont. How about if I name Gardai in Store Street and Pearce Street and give you their shoulder numbers?

Now, as for the topic at hand. Your back peddling, I never stated I wanted a gun. Only you said that however you are actively against Gardai having non-lethal weapons also.

Now, unless you are willing to answer my previous questions which I have asked 3 times now I will not bother reading your response.

1. How do you deal with a shotgun being pointed in your face without any weapon?
2. How do you disarm a person with a large knife without any weapon?

If you’re so right then the Gardai that were injured in Finglas (Shot), Raheny (Stabbed) and Store Street (Stabbed) are just idiots. Note 2 were legally held items available in any person’s kitchen.

You speak of community policing, scenes of crimes. Are you a suspect? Just how are you at so many crime scenes? And more importantly, how does attending a crime scene put you in any danger? Getting choked by the yellow tape?

Oh, BTW. The new radio system doesn’t work properly without the holder and ear pieces/mic's haven’t been issued yet. That’s not common knowledge.

author by pacifist - (at what stage would you want to hit me, "copper"?)publication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 18:18Report this post to the editors

bled to death on the pavement in Dalston London, one of five young men to die in a turf dispute the police did not respond to 999 calls.
I put the crime scene in inverted commas, because its the language - innit? So your estimate for injured gardaí is 2 stab wounds and one 1 shot.= interesting. Gardaí getting stabbed is hardly breaking news, is it? You've been losing members to the knife since the beginning.
As for "are you a criminal?"
I told you a long time ago, in another comment : my real name "garda" and I wrote {you put me through your little "garda computer" and a little bird tells me who you are, and you find s.f.a. on me not even a thing about knitting}. Its time for you to grow up and be a real contributor.
Write your article lad, ask others like yourself for their opinions, report them. Research the facts. Be statistically honest. Is your "dangerous job" that pays your mortgage really more dangerous than it was for your station sergeant who though he passed the inspector exams long ago, is still on those high wages? Was the amount of ammunition and fire arms lost to criminals by rank and file gardaí in Tallaght justifiable?
You obviously feel passionately on this issue, but your job and experiences cloud your judgement as to what is wisest, most intelligent and appropriate for our types of society.

*******************************************************
RE Noel:

Its quite difficult to answer that question, the latest Police report is not published but details from a July leak are such :-
"One in ten teenage schoolboys in London has
carried a gun in the last 12 months, often for reasons of self-defence, according to a leaked police report.

According to the Times, a study commissioned by the Metropolitan police revealed that fear is driving many youngsters in urban Britain to arm themselves with weapons from knives to real or replica guns.

Six percent of the 11 to 15-year-olds questioned said they had actually fired a real gun, 8% said they could easily get access to a handgun, and one in seven said they knew someone who had "brought a real or real-looking gun" into school."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,1521070,00.html

and archived reports from the guardian on guns in the UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/0,2759,178412,00.html

There has been a concensus on the ruling left in the UK, from Greater London Authority to the New Labour Party that there is as much a culture of violence issue in the increased use of guns than their cheap availabilty.
People want to use guns, on both sides of the urban conflict. We can not allow that. And before we do, we ought allow everyone the right to bear arms, Canadian style.

But the good news is, that gun crime is reducing in the UK. thanks to an intelligent community led attitude.

Related Link: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime/guncrime/
author by Alpublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 18:21Report this post to the editors

Answer the questions and dont be so disrespectful to people that nearly died.

Yes, Gardai get stabbed more often than people think, thanks for proving my point.

author by thirddegreepublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 18:47Report this post to the editors

Continual demands for people to answer questions are (rightly) considered "trolling". So Al please stop trolling. Nobody is obliged to answer a question, unlike in a police station. Of course you would say that they are not obliged to answer there too, but the reality is different as I'm sure you are fully aware. Just as well then, Al, that you cannot get your hands on 'pacifist'.
Furthermore, it is absolutely obvious to me who 'pacifist' is. If I (who left school at fifteen) can figure it out then surely a brilliant upcoming member of the gardai should be able to work it out too. No?

author by pacifistpublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 20:08Report this post to the editors

and respect for the users of this forum, I will now from now on "declare your interests" as a self-described younger member of the Irish police force, whose profile in the last months displays a anti-social and violent attitude to the job of community acceptable policing. Policing is a very important issue in Ireland, either side of the border, and one which has attracted much interest & attention. Your thoughts are very interesting, not only to us, but to many in your representative organisation and higher ranks. The longer you continue to post under the name "Al", the more you assume the role of a community spokesperson, an action which has not been approved by your senior officers.

I asked you many questions first. You have not answered them.

{"I'm not signing my statement till you answer the questions. Now I'll go back to staring at the wall opposite - till Gareth comes down and I walk. & then you get stationed elsewhere... will I?"}

author by kintamapublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 21:21Report this post to the editors

Als consistent refusal to answer questions asked of him and to respond to points not made has a tendency to string out threads unnecessarily .
The points relating to weapons while interesting have little to do with the original thread and make me worry that Devil Dog, the man with the big rifle fixation is back under an assumed name.
The really relevant disclosure is that Al a self professed guardian of the peace seems to think that state forces should behave like terrorists . I was always lead to believe that what distinguished state forces from terrorists was how they treated prisioners and in how they conducted themselves in response to armed attacks . I appreciate that the spirit of Mc Dowell looms large over life in the 26 counties but it should be of concern to everyone that a serving member of the Gardai has so little respect for judicial processes . My contributions to the state go to pay his wages and while I have little time for anti social behaviour I would be concerned for the well being of the hoods who stalk the area around Store Street if Sheriff Al were to be allowed out of the office.

author by contributorpublication date Mon Aug 29, 2005 22:55Report this post to the editors

The issues which emerged from this thread are very important and ought be taken to a specific newswire article and possibly feature.

author by Alpublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 00:37Report this post to the editors

I hate to break it to you folks but all I have being saying is that weapons are a necessary evil. Im trying to point that out but you cant have it both ways. Either pacifist has to answer questions put to him or he doesnt. If he doesnt then sorry to break your hearts folks, but neither do I.

Now where have I stated that I intend to perform some instant justice or beat the crap out of anyone? anyone? Anyone able to quote me? No, because I didnt. You put words in my mouth and then complain when I respond.

Put it this way, you dont tell a mechanic how to fix your car or what tools he does and doesnt need so why dicate to me? Once again I repeat myself, I dont want a gun. Get it? I want a stab proof vest because as Pacifist pointed out, we get stabbed a lot. I want a decent alternative to a 12 inch piece of wood. If im being attacked by a person with a knife then I personally think and know I need something to defend myself with. If you disagree then show me an alternative.


A person stating that the police dont need weapons should have to back up his point, otherwise its simple tongue wagging. I am asking questions because they are essential to the discussion. If police officers shouldnt have weapons then explain how they can do their jobs.

I also think a pacifists attitude to Gardai being injured was very lax, "Guards get stabbed all the time, so what?"

As for a community speaker, by using the same name? I dont think so, using the same name is about being honest. I dont hide behind multiple names or use aliases to back my own arguements up.

author by Beep beeppublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 01:08Report this post to the editors

"Put it this way, you dont tell a mechanic how to fix your car or what tools he does and doesnt need so why dicate to me?"

Car mechanics do not generally use tools which are designed to incapacitate (or kill) the people they meet.

author by getting somewhere.publication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 01:12Report this post to the editors

You don't want arms, & by now you realise that public opinion will not tolerate the deployment of arms in all districts or areas, which would lead to certain areas being associated with armed patrols and a corresponding effect on local economic concerns such as house pricing and small business security investment. You wouldn't get that past any government in europe. Historically you've no guns, thats how it stays.

You want (it is suggested)
* better clothing.
* better training.
* better back-up
* better community relations.
You will accept on deep consideration that arms are not the wisest step in supporting your profession, for their effect on economy, and on public well being, and for the very fact that you as an organised body of men and women can not ensure those arms will not be stolen or misused.

On a thread where a brutal death was met without remorse by you, it is not inexcusable that recent injuries suffered by members of the police do not meet with a dilution of core principles on Irish policing. It is a lamentable fact that more victims of violent crime occur in domestic situations amongst family members. A combination of : lack of trust in the community and law enforcement professionals has been seen to lead to persistent physical abuse patterns not being reported. There are simply too many women dying at home at the hands of violent and often desperate men.
Those injuries and that problem merit more mention - in this forum.

You will accept that the onus for your proper training lies with the ministry of justice, and that if the conditions which effect that activity which you are engaged in as state employees renders you more liable to physical injury, the wider community which the state serves, will not grant you the right of summary execution but will understand your requests for better training and under certain conditions other equipment if accountable.

you will accept that at present there is not sufficient transparency in Garda siochana matters and justice ministry operations where arms are used, or a proper complaints procedure in place by which any misuse of lethal force, or use of new equipment, or negligent use of either may be made accountable to either national or international bodies to which the state is bound by treaty.

Now would you like a better baton?
Is it the length, and material of truncheon issue?
Would you like to learn how to kickbox?
Would you like to talk about sprays?
Do you want rubber fecking bullets?

@ the end of the day, you arm for a tiny percentage of the population who are "criminals", more of the wider community will arm themselves as well.

Facts prove it. Its a slippery slope, & we offer you, ironically enough, one of the few lifelines you have
"garda"

author by kintamapublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 01:20Report this post to the editors

Yet again Al confounds those who use IM as a means to discuss issues by avoiding all the questions he cannot answer. On another politics discussion site the prevailing view is that M Mc Dowell is a nutter it seems the malaise has spread to some of his little blueshirts in Store St.
It is time to yet again close a thread to avoid Al again taking us down some bizarre Alice in Wonderland fantasy trip.

author by Alpublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 02:31Report this post to the editors

Kintama,
What are you talking about? What questions? And why do only I have to answer questions? Ask me a question and I will answer it but I expect the same courtasy from others. You are the one living in fantasy land as you refuse to grant me the same decency that you demand from me. I am trying to have an open debate here not destroy a thread but your not being fair and equal with me.

Beep Beep,
A mechanic also doesnt voluntarily put himself in a position of being attacked, injured and/or killed. Poice officers do, you wouldnt send a soldier on UN duty without a weapon or flak jacket. You dont expect a doctor to operate without surgical equipment and you would be left waiting for a fireman to put out the flames without a hose.

Getting,
First off, most EU nations police forces are armed. As for domestic violence, thats not actually my fault. I dont hit my better half or my child and I deal with the situations as best I can under law. There is also a lot more possible victims, I wonder how the precentages add up. I would suggest the percentage of Gardai injured is higher than domestic violence. before nayone says otherwise, I dont condone domestic violence and I do everything in my power to prevent and deal with it.

In relation to what i want, obviously better community relations is preferable however I am reasonable happy with my training. Yes I would like changes to my equipment and clothing.

In regards to complaints and transparancy, no we disagree there. I dont see a problem with the current situation.

And now lets discuss tools of the trade. Why are you so apposed to pepper spray, stab proof jackets and ASP batons? This is what I would like.

And finally, you say that if we arm more people will arm. Why? Why would Joe Soap arm himself because I am armed? In a county with over 250,000 registered shotguns (God knows how many illegal) I would suggest that guns are already well and truly here.

I presume your proof is in countries such as America, Africa and Brazil. However they are not the norm, they freely allow all citizens to own handguns. America allows much more.

Why not look to Canada, Japan, Australia, Norway, Holland and many more?

Fact: Japan has the lowest gun crime in the world yet the police are armed.

Fact: Gardai are the only country in the world that offers neither protective clothing or weapons to uniform officers.

Show me 1 police force that has so little protection. I mean, we live in a country where the police are outgunned and out equiped by criminals.

And finally, I actually do train in a martial art however I dont use it in my occupation and it takes minimum of 5 years to become a blackbelt. thats hardly a realistic time frame for training.

author by Current Soldierpublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:19Report this post to the editors

Sorry Al but to clarify one pouint u made in error, Soldierrs do and are sent on UN duty unarmed.

Monitoring missions are unarmed such as truce monitoring, one such example is Western Sahara.

Just though I would clarify that.

author by Alpublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:59Report this post to the editors

Noted Current I stand corrected. I didnt really mean observor in my comment but peace keeping duty.

See Pacifist? well capable of taking information from a more experienced source.

author by iosafpublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 16:35Report this post to the editors

if we bother, can see that the Irish police force will not be armed for many good reasons. The one "they would understand the best" being the effect of selective armed patrols on house pricing.

We also have a wealth of links to reports, and organisations opposed to the arms trade whose acitivities underpin the availability of fire arms in our society.

& we have seen that the Gardaí are not being supplied with protective wear which the ministry has purchased. That is a matter for the Minister.

Further than that, we know Al's radio is dodgey, he isn't a black belt, and he respects any contributor that signs himself "soldier". These issues ought have as many contributors noted their own article.
Where we can draw on the experience of our neighbours in England and the UK and cite the appropriate facts and figures.

******************************************************

The illustration I have posted today is of the evidence of an incident in barcelona during the annual festival and street party in the area of "sants" last saturday. An altercation between youths described as "anti-system" and security guards in a metro station they were in the act of grafitti painting saw police back-up called, the police agents, young and relatively new recruits have the support of their senior officers who are keen to downplay what is being seen as an "un-neccesary use of force". They "fired in the air".

The bullet hole pointed at is 1.75metres from the floor. The average male citizen of Spain is
of 1.70metres tall. The bullets fired of 9mm calibre did not leave offer much space for those "warning shots" to be "lethal head shots".

The police made no arrests, the "anti-system" graffiti youths made good their escape. The incident found its way to the weekend supplements of 2 national newspapers who have joined a recent campaign on "anti-social behaviour" launched in Barcelona by those concerned at the disrespectful attitude of tourists throughout the mediterranean to their holiday hosts cities and countries. An irish tourist murdered his wife in a holiday village populated solely by britons and irish in the last week in Spain, there are 12 extradition requests from the Greek state to the UK for the return of "drunken and indecent revelers" from a resort favoured by britons and irish.

The spanish police are armed at great cost to the tax payer. They are also considered to be the european leaders in crowd control thanks to the basque conflict and years of barcelona strife.
Their equipment is accordingly amonst the best and most comprehensive available to Euro-police forces, varying from blunt trauma kevlar body armour to the whole range of fire arms, truncheons, sprays, water cannon the lot.

This is as a result of the historical background of their society which sees ordinary security men carry pistols, and many homeowners count licensed weapons, a society where even a squat was found in the last 2 years to be the alledged home to an anti-aircraft heavy machine gun. Though in fairness it was just buried in the garden and had no ammunition, and as I pointed out the time the best anti-aircraft positions are taken by the guardia civil in the city.

There is considerable concern that recent recruitment patterns has attracted younger men and women are as much turned on by the equipment and gear as are genuinely volunteering to serve the community. Spain like most EU states has several police forces, and previous rivalries between these institutions guarantees ironically a certain social pact between armed factions with different cultural interpretations of the state. Barcelona is leading the state at the moment in attempts to put police groups together on the beat so that they may share their work, resources, and be seen to "work together".

In the last year the spanish authorities have seized over 300kg of high grade explosives from a guardia civil who was "storing it in his house" in northern catalonia and in the last 3 years over 20,000 high qaulity weapons proceeding from former Yugoslavia complete with ammunition dwarfing all other alledged armed group arsenals, which include in order of material - ETA, Grapo, NeoNazis, Individual police officers or soldiers and anti-system anarchists.

We ought have an article exploring the issue of whether or not the Irish police really factually need new equipment or whether or not the ministry is negligent in the allocation of resources to certain stations. There is no European level evidence to suggest that the crime in Dublin is "out of step" with trends seen in other states. But there is a lot of "scare" and "publicity". The reader may go through the comments to this page and find the link to the British Home Office action on guns, including the amnesty referred to above and dismissed by another commentator (the only one who claims to be professionally involved in crime) and note that proactive community action has reduced arms use and arms availability in the UK.

bullet hole, one bullet and 2 cartridges "fired into the air" in a metro station. standard 9mm police issue. we count every one fired.
bullet hole, one bullet and 2 cartridges "fired into the air" in a metro station. standard 9mm police issue. we count every one fired.

author by oopspublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 16:42Report this post to the editors

In a society where arms are so widespread, it is vitally important that they are not used, that they are truly the "last resort". Ireland thankfully is very far from that reality. & someone who is not even trained to "black belt" might not be trained to make that split second decision or shoot accurately.
So far, the use of arms by Irish police has been restricted to the ERU, who earlier this year shot an unarmed man many times. It is not acceptable to excuse such action by saying the "man was a criminal". Police by the nature of their job, deal on a daily basis with criminals, and have much more in common with them, than they care to admit.
Violence begets violence.

report on the near shooting of grafitti heads :-
http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/198317

further to the illustration previous comment.
further to the illustration previous comment.

author by Alpublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 19:45Report this post to the editors

Hold on a second, while I can see where |iosef is coming from Oops is way off the mark, and may I ask why the 2 names?

Not being a martial arts expert means I cant make split second decisions? Better take away all those licenses from all those doctors, firemen and pilots to name a few. Sorry, buts thats a stupid statement.

I wont comment on the link between a blackbelt and accurate aim. The best snipers in the worls probable dont even train in a martial art.

As for the ERU shooting an unarmed man, you know thats not true. He wasnt standing in the Q waiting for his dole. He was charging the Garda with a hammer. A hammer (another legal weapon) is capable of killing. That thread resulted in not 1 person offering a viable alternative besides a hug and cup of tea, so dont bring it up again.

"Violence begets violence." - Very true except you are condeming me for using violence to defend myself when attacked.

And as for our equipment being for the Minister, any other probelm with the Minister is like a rallying call to arms but when its the Gardai that are requesting something, oh well, to hell with the Free state Bastards.

author by iosafpublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 20:08Report this post to the editors

9mm in other press is an article which reports and will update on that police arms issue in Barcelona.
I will of course be compiling all references to fire-arms use in Ireland, I have gut instinct there will soon be an incident worth hyper-linking closer to home, to you know "the ambitious feature article" and the info from the UK is not going anywhere.
The bcn case might interest you Al. It has "all the ingredients", and you and your colleauges might do well to consider them carefully before the Irish army are deployed in Raheny.

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=71747

author by Alpublication date Tue Aug 30, 2005 20:42Report this post to the editors

Now iosef your spinning my words merely to make your point seem sensible. Where did I ask for that? If your not willing to enter honest debate at least be honest enough to admit it.

And I wont post my own thread as long as the 'Agree or go away' mentality is prominent on the site.

author by tarzanpublication date Sat Mar 25, 2006 22:30author email fullback at seznam dot czauthor phone 0877948547Report this post to the editors

i didn't even read your pages,just the begining.
how can u say: nazi is in all of us?

u should think before writing somethink like this.my grandpa died fighting nazi.his father too.and i'll gladly die fighting somebody calling me nazi...

author by jadypublication date Sat Mar 25, 2006 22:54author email jady4evergp at hotmail dot comReport this post to the editors

This articile is perhaps one of the most lobsided and nonsensical rants I have yet to read. It sounds as though it was written by someone badly in need of a wake-up. The freedom you enjoy today, the fact that this sight ends with a .ie is because of these "freestate captors".
I don't doubt or question the brutality of their actions but this articile fails to represents the equally horrendous acts of the IRA during the Civil War. No arguement can be considered a valid or worthy one if it lacks the political maturity to accept and EMBRACE the opposite opinion.

A Dissent, jady.

author by Peter Newmanpublication date Wed Apr 12, 2006 05:40author phone -44-1423-546746Report this post to the editors

Hello; I am the instigator of this thread, titled 'the Irish army in action' with the subtitle 'the Nazi is in all of us.'
I am shocked to return after all this time to find that my impulsive posting has prompted no less than 104 comments. Is this a record for http://indymedia.ie ?
The original posting was, as the first commentator observed, largely composed of snippets from "Tragedies of Kerry" by Dorothy Macardle. It was posted on the 22 August 2005, which happens to be the anniversary of the shooting of Michael Collins. To be honest, I was having a glass of wine that night and the posting was just an impulsive act..
The fact that it generated such a response is testimony to the reservoir of repressed emotion relating to the period June 1922 to April 1923.
Having just now returned to this posting and having discovered that there were 104 comments, I have quickly skimmed through them.
I am certainly not a provo propagandist, or anything similar.
I just understand that the Irish people have never resolved the intense emotions and dilemmas aroused by the events which followed the signing of the treaty on 6 December 1921, and the shameful antics of Eamon de Valera afterwards.
One correspondent wants to fight against me because I said 'the Nazi is in all of us,' and his grandfather fought against the German Nazis.
Well, it was largely pub talk, when I wrote that.
But there's usually a germ of truth in 'pub talk.'
There was a serious intent there in highlighting the embarrassing events which we Irish generally swept under the carpet for eighty years.
I have expressed my thoughts on this general subject in a well-known article published on the Article Planet site, which can be viewed at this link:
http://www.article-planet.com/index.php?page=article&ar...d=479

Obviously powerful emotions are at work here, rooted in the forgotten past, which never went away but is still contaminating the present.
My telephone number is there if anyone wants to discuss these issues in a serious and friendly manner.
-Peter Newman / North Yorkshire / England
=====================================

Related Link: http://www.article-planet.com/index.php?page=article&ar...d=479
author by Peter Newmanpublication date Wed Apr 12, 2006 07:42author phone -44-1423-546746Report this post to the editors

========================================
Given that there have been no less than 104 comments on my original posting titled 'the Irish army in action,' it is clear that there is a huge reservoir of repressed emotion at work here, relating to those terrible ten months of June 1922 to April 1923.
In the circumstances, it seems appropriate to reproduce in full below the text of the well-known article titled "Ireland's Nazi Past," which has been well read all over the world.

It's time we Irish faced up to it.

==================================
==================================
==============================================

IRELAND’S NAZI PAST

==============================================

Every nation has its skeletons in the closet. The title ‘Ireland’s Nazi Past’ does not refer to the ‘Blueshirts’ affair of the 1930s, which was only a fancy dress party. Prior to that, we had the real thing.

Ireland became a Nazi state in 1922. Germany’s Nazi state lasted twelve years. Ireland’s descent into Nazism was brief, and was localized inside Ireland. For ten months, June 1922 to April 1923, all hell broke loose in Ireland. We can’t blame the British for this one. Irishmen did this to other Irishmen.

We Irish cherish our martyr status as victims of British imperialism. Those ten months, June 1922 to April 1923, stripped us of our martyr status. As soon as the British withdrew from southern Ireland, Irishmen immediately started oppressing other Irishmen ten times worse than the British ever oppressed us.

The same thing happened in other British colonies in Asia and Africa. As soon as the paternal hand of imperial control was withdrawn, the local indigenous factions gave hell to each other, much worse than the British had ever done. We need to straighten out our thinking on this.

Cecil Rhodes declared: “We, the British, are the best people in the world.” In view of what the colonized peoples started doing to each other as soon as the British withdrew, we are prompted to ask: was Cecil Rhodes right? I’m not saying he was right. I’m saying there is food for thought here.

The Irish educational system understandably bypasses those ten months of June 1922 to April 1923 in its history lessons.

The massacre at Ballyseedy Cross has come to symbolize those ten months. An account of it was recently circulated on the internet in the following words:

-----------------------------------------------------

BALLYSEEDY CROSS

There is a lonely crossroads in Kerry, south west Ireland.

“Around Kerry in the autumn and winter of 1922 and the spring of 1923, an ominous wall of silence was drawn. The rumours that came through were so terrible that they were scarcely believed. Those rumours were less terrible than the truth.”
(Dorothy Macardle, ‘Tragedies of Kerry.’)

On 6 March 1923, five Irish government soldiers, among them a well-known torturer of prisoners of war, were killed when they were lured into a booby trap bomb by anti-government forces near Knocknagoshel.
Late that night, in retaliation, other Irish government soldiers chained a number of prisoners of war around a bomb at Ballyseedy Cross and detonated it under them.
Most of the prisoners survived the initial blast.
The Irish government soldiers then hurled grenades at groaning, half-butchered men to finish them off.
For days afterwards the birds were eating human flesh off the trees at Ballyseedy Cross.
They sent back the wrong number of coffins to Tralee the next day.
There was no way of knowing how many men had been killed.
Eight prisoners of war were murdered by Irish government soldiers that night at Ballyseedy Cross.
Nine coffins were sent back to Tralee the next day.
What were the people of Tralee to do with that ninth coffin?

A mother wailed: “But my son was six feet tall. How can he come home to me in such a small coffin?”
They would not let the mother open that coffin.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Rory, Liam, Richard and Joe were similarly murdered by the Irish Nazi government in Mountjoy Jail on that terrible morning of 8 December 1922, in retaliation for an action by anti-government forces. That set the pattern. From then on, the Irish Nazi government was the direct precursor of Hitler’s Nazis in occupied Europe during World War II. When the German Nazis razed an entire village to the ground, along with its inhabitants, in revenge for the assassination of Reinhart Heydrich by anti-government forces, they were taking their cue from the tactics of the Irish Nazi government of 1922-23.

THE IRISH NAZI GOVERNMENT OF 1922-23 SHOWED THE GERMANS HOW TO DO IT. THE IRISH WERE THE ORIGINAL NAZIS OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY.

It’s all there in the historical record, if we are willing to drop our cherished martyr status and to admit that we Irish proved during those terrible ten months that – once we get going - we Irish are ten times better at dictatorship and oppression than the British ever were, just as nearly all the other former colonies demonstrated too after the British left. Why demonise the British? As soon as the British withdrew, the Irish and nearly all the other colonized nations proved to the world that we can colonize our own countrymen ten times worse than the British ever colonized us!

The Irish demonstrated it most famously at Ballyseedy Cross.

Our tyrants are our own countrymen now, instead of the British. Would it be better if the world were still ruled by Britain? If you become on intimate terms with some Asian and African politicians, they will tell you – at least in private – that the only solution to their country’s ills is to be readmitted to the British Empire! A lot of people in Ireland would have said the same in 1923. A lot of people in Asia and Africa have said it – privately – since 1950.

So those ten months of Irish Nazism are glossed over in Irish history lessons, because the period June 1922 to April 1923 proved that British rule in Ireland was preferable to Irish rule in Ireland. In the context of the twentieth century at least, we can say that the British never hurt us as much as we hurt each other. The same applies to nearly all former British colonies.

-----------------------------------------------------

There should have been an Irish equivalent of the Nuremberg trials. The opportunity came with the change of government in 1932. If we take one example - the massacre at Ballyseedy Cross – there was a witness, Stephen Fuller, who could have identified the government soldiers who set off the initial blast, and then hurled grenades at groaning, half-butchered men to finish them off.

Yet the soldiers were never prosecuted.

Why?

Because Eamon de Valera’s role in bringing about the conflict was such an embarrassment that the whole thing had to be kept under wraps.

If we’d had an honest investigation into the period, de Valera himself would have been disgraced, and possibly jailed.

Instead of confronting his past, old Dev got his crony Dorothy Macardle to produce an encyclopaedic volume titled ‘The Irish Republic.’ Published in 1937, it had huge influence in the decades that followed. It remains a valuable historical document, but was essentially a whitewash job on Eamon de Valera. Miss Macardle had become Dev’s minister for propaganda.

The role of Eamon de Valera in prompting the civil war of 1922-23, when he could have prevented it, is a matter of huge embarrassment to every Irish person.

THAT TEN-MONTH CIVIL WAR WAS FOUGHT FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN EAMON DE VALERA’S EGO.

Dev rose back to the top in politics because he was all we had left in the early part of the twentieth century. All the half-decent Irishmen with leadership qualities had been killed off in the conflicts of 1916-1923. Dev was all we had left. Dev filled the vacuum. He was our leader only by default, not by merit. He was all we had left.

To write honestly about Dev’s face-saving antics in the months following 6 December 1921 tends to generate hysteria. Perhaps it’s best to refer the reader to the video ‘MICHAEL COLLINS,’ starring Alan Rickman in the role of Eamon de Valera, which is a faithful representation of the historical record - including acceptable composite scenes - and speaks volumes about the character of old Dev. I’m sure the people behind that film were well aware of their historical mission, which was not so much to tell the world the story of Mick Collins – but to cut Eamon de Valera down to size. And that was their achievement. The ghost of Eamon de Valera winced as he saw that film being viewed on the big screen by audiences in Bucharest, Ho Chi Minh City, La Paz….. so that the truth about Eamon de Valera, which we Irish are still unable to process, was paraded on huge cinema screens all over the world.

A type of justice was done. The film was not primarily about Michael Collins, nor about bashing the Brits. It was primarily about cutting Eamon de Valera down to size. Take another look at that ‘MICHAEL COLLINS’ video. It’s all there.

------------------------------------------------------

THOSE WHO CANNOT REMEMBER THE PAST ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT IT. That is a law of life. We’ve had a good run lately in Ireland, but we are still contaminated by our Nazi past. The Germans have done well at processing their past. In the 1990s the French belatedly started jailing aged Vichy officials who arranged the deportation of Jews to concentration camps. The Cambodians are honest about the Pol Pot regime. The Filipinos are honest about the Marcos era. The Irish generally are NOT honest about the Irish Nazi era of 1922-23.

It’s time we faced up to two simple facts:

>WE IRISH HAVE NO RIGHT TO CLAIM MARTYR STATUS AS VICTIMS OF BRITISH IMPERIALISM BECAUSE WE PROVED IN 1922-23 THAT WE ARE ABLE TO OPPRESS OTHER IRISHMEN TEN TIMES WORSE THAN THE BRITISH EVER OPPRESSED US.

>THE IRISH WERE THE ORIGINAL NAZIS OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY. DURING THOSE TERRIBLE TEN MONTHS OF JUNE 1922 TO APRIL 1923, WE, THE IRISH, SHOWED THE GERMANS HOW TO DO IT.

And that is why, when I came up through the Irish educational system, my history teachers never uttered one honest word to me about those seminal ten months, which have contaminated Irish society for the past eighty years.

---------------------------------------------------

And the bottom line is:

WHAT IF THE BOOT HAD BEEN ON THE OTHER FOOT?

If the Irish race had NOT settled on an offshore island where the English suppressed them and contained them, but had instead settled in central Europe – then what would the Irish have done to Europe?

Look for the answer at Ballyseedy Cross.

=================================================

author by Rebekah Markhampublication date Tue Dec 15, 2009 14:11Report this post to the editors

I googled Neligan, Ballymullen as I am researching a family tree. Im totally stunned by what Ive found. Im not overly familiar with David Neligan's name, but Im pretty sure he would be related to my Neligan ancestors who lived in Ballymullen and Ardfert in the mid 1800s. Not something I want to share with my children......... Here in England we dont hear the half of it, everything that goes on in Ireland isnt reported in the news, everything is kept completely quiet.

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