Tara - Meath Sinn Féin County Colr. Joe Reilly on the M3 interchange

by shocked Wed Jul 20, 2005 00:08

SF are on the popular side of a huge issue on this. They should be lying down in front of the diggers.

Where are the Greens?

Again I ask - Where are the Greens. Pursuing respectability or courting irrelevance?

by not shocked Wed Jul 20, 2005 00:34

The Greens' last press release regarding Tara was 11 May 2005

http://greenparty.ie/en/news/latest_news/tara_m3_decision_a_bad_day_for_ireland_s_heritage

alot has happened since then, the Greens need to catch up.

by Jeanne Wed Jul 20, 2005 01:29 Lepplady at yahoo dot com

It's devastating to see the landscape of heritage being so irrevocably scarred, when another route for the motorway was not only reccomended by the experts, but would also have cost less to build. The fact that the experts are being ignored can only mean that money is going in somebody's pocket for it.
Can the rape of national culture really be worth a few bits of silver?

by Shane Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:03

Fair point about the greens - where are all of the other parties. Labour were raising it quite a bit before any work started. Why the lack of interest just when the digs start?

I notice another posting saying that the campaign had gone quiet - why is this?

by Badman Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:25

"I notice another posting saying that the campaign had gone quiet - why is this?"

The campaign as it is has been dominated by academics and liberal intellectuals, plus a small number of people who are particularly devoted to Tara for various mystical reasons. This has had a few consequences, each of which leads into the next:

1. Too many large egos squashed into too small a space - 'like a bag full of cats'

2. A fair number of eccentrics who often have difficulty seeing others' points of view and aren't that good at working collectively.

3. An overwhelming concentration on attracting support from academics and people of cultural weight.

4. A strategy that is limited to using 'proper' means of getting your point across - letters to the editor, petitions of academics, representations to the government, cases in the high-court.

5. Enormous naivety about the institutions of the state and their usefulness as a way of effecting change.

6. Very limited experience of running large and popular political campaigns and hence a complete ignorance about how to turn public opinion into action.

In any case, they seem woefully unprepared for the current situation.

by Shane Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:43

So what can be done? I am interested, not coming from a spiritual or academic angle anyway also. I'd love the chance to show my concern.

It is terrible to see this happening without even a whisper in the media..

by Shane Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:54

Because nobody seems to care at the moment..
A recent posting stated the following:

'The campaign as it is has been dominated by academics and liberal intellectuals, plus a small number of people who are particularly devoted to Tara for various mystical reasons. This has had a few consequences..'

So is there a consensus that there needs to be a protest outside of the dig site to show there is an interest?

If a date and time was posted for a protest would you show up?
Is it better if it isn't organised by any group? Is that what the problem is? Would YOU show if it was an informal gathering of the concerned at a given time in Navan????

To understand where this is coming from read the 5th comment at http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70984&condense_comments=false#comment115269

This is a question for everyone. Somebody has to ask it..

by cynical Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:54

The campaigners I'd say had their heads turned by huge press attention with the Sun Tribune save tara campaign springing to mind. This campaign has mysteriously disappeared off the face of the earth in last month.

Now when attention is needed editors rein in their tame journalists.

They should get whatever numbers and do a rossport 5 on it. They would get huge support and would bring the issue back to public attention.

At least call on cross party delegation of politicians to go and witness what is going on.

This is deliberately happening now in silly season because opposition of all sorts is weak in july as people generally try to take a break.

'Don't just do something - stand there'

by Shane Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:58

Well,

Let's see if there is any response to what's up at http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70994 ..

The shole thing can't just pass without a whimper..

by cynical Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:04

And ask them to do something. I must have heard/seen/read every one of them scoring points for themselves on this issue over the last year.

There is HUGE public sympathy for this campaign and yet nothing. Not even making the government do this under the public gaze.

There are a lot of intimidated unwilling to rock the boat politicians around.

Set a date. Remind them of your votes.

by Shane Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:09

How about that? A mid-week evening effort, or a Saturday afternoon?

by cynical Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:15

get people interested and then see if there is an appetite for a 24 hour presence?

by redjade Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:16

to get involved contact the Save Tara campaign

http://www.savetara.com/modules.php?name=Contact

by Paul G Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:32

What about an unbranded protest seperate to any group? No egos, no public speakers, just a protest to say 'THIS IS WRONG'.

24hr idea is cool. I want to see the dig site anyway.

Like an orange revolution, sort of .....................

by ™ protestor Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:48

unbranded? is that what it takes now to get people out for this issue? That's really too bad - altho understandable in some respects.

Obviously there's nothing stopping anyone from going to co Meath to 'do something'

imagination is the only limitation.

by Joe Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:05

"Like an orange revolution, sort of"

Isn't that actually an example of a highly branded revolution? Most ad people would be delighted that you'd only have to mention a colour and people would know you meant their product. I'd have thought the 'orange revolution' was one of the most succesful bits of branding of the last year.

by cynical Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:08

1. location
2. date
3. time
4. reason
5. clear reasoning behind particular protest format
6. advance notice
7. publicity

People cannot wait around for Save Tara Skryne group to do this. People expected that this at the very least would be done.

It isn't rocket science and they've sorted nada.

Time for the disorganised as they might be to round up a possee.

best 'short effective text message and plan' competition anyone?

Councillor Joe'll be there by the looks of things anyways so that's a start if you need encouragement.

by Paul G Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:10

I kind of think that you are left out of this campaign unless you are an academic or a spiriual natural person, or a druid.

this issue needs inclusivity not exclusivity.

by ™ protestor Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:19

well, maybe that's whats needed. a good split. but the campaign has already been there - done that.

Needs new blood that sees the bigger vision while respecting local needs (less traffic).

back to the Greens, is not that what their party is supposed to be good at? finding eco-practical solutions to these problems and issues?

maybe they have them already, but they are not be easily found on thier websites or in the media. the GPs NGO-style existance without grassroots has created a vacuum where the Sinners have been able to comfortably walk into. (not that I see anything wrong with SF being involved in this issue - in fact, it is perfect for them)

If the Shell pipeline went through the Tara Skryne valley, would the Rossport 5 have so much support? I'm not sure.

by Shane Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:23

How about this Sat at 3pm? The following one is the Bank hol weekend, so there may be less people around for numbers.

Short notice but maybe that's best?

Genuine 'Treat Tara with Respect' Protest - No group banners, no agendas, no alterior motives (Ie no anti-road building slogans, no religious promotion) - just plain 'Move the road away from Tara - leave Tara alone.

by John Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:37

The photographs shown prove nothing. They are not taken from the Hill of Tara but from another height that looks down on the road works and from which you can also see the Hill of Tara in the background. The fact that from position A you can see both positions B and C does not prove that you can see position B from position C. The photos shown probably also use zoom. Since these road works commenced, no photographs of them have appeared that were taken from the Hill of Tara itself and which did not use zoom. Why not? I suggest someone goes to the top of the Hill of Tara and takes a photo of the roadworks without using zoom. I'll bet the roadworks will either be invisible in such photos or so small you'll need a magnifying glass to see them. As is obvious from the other comments, the working-class has no interest in this protest. Its driven my middle-class academics who are opposed to all development in Ireland outside a few urban growth centres.. Their ideal rural Ireland is one in which there are no factories, roads, office blocks, refineries, houses etc but merely a depopulated wilderness.

by cynical Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:41

Stand at the top of hill and see/photograph the dig from there

prove St Bertrude of the generous position donations a dissembler eh john?

by ™ protestor Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:49

'The photographs shown prove nothing.'

John , I think you're missing the point here. Bertie, while in negotiations with the STSV told them that the motorway would never be seen from tara or vice-versa. meaning, the motorway wouldnt get close enough 'to matter' - this was a lie, straight out.

Bertie's men tried for months to smear the campaign by saying that the STSV claimed the motorway would go ON the Hill of Tara - something which the campaign NEVER said and obviously not true.

Currently there is an effort that is gaining strength to move all roads away from Stone Henge in the UK - why? because it subtracts from the experience of Stone Henge.

In Ireland, motorways are seens as progress and Ireland is quite willing to sell of its past for a quick €uro.

There are alternative plans available at http://www.savetara.com - Bertie's men would like you to think that this is the only answer. Its not - but it is the 'answer' that lines the pockets of someone. Who would that be?

by Eoghan Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:51

That's a good idea Shane, too many Druids and hippies will turn normal people away from the protest.
We need good roads but not at the expence of our national heritage.

by cynical Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:54

Look at what was in the local paper today. I wonder how many Madam is binning per day?

(Editor, Meath Chronicle)

Dear sir - I was disappointed by the ‘scathing attack’ by Minister Roche
on opponents of the proposed route of the M3 accusing us of a ‘lack of
respect’, airing ‘untruths’ and ‘a lack of open-mindedness’ (/Meath
Chronicle,/ 22nd June).

At my meeting with the minister and the Taoiseach I told the truth when
I clarified the following: there would be no court case if they moved
the road out of the valley, at least 38 sites require excavation, the
Tara landscape is the archaeological, literary, spiritual and historical
centre of our past and that already the land in the valley, particularly
at Blundelstown, was being bought for development.

The minister said his power was limited to issues related to
archaeology. I said that he had the power to declare all 38 sites
national monuments and ask the NRA and Meath County Council to move the
route out of the valley. Michael D Higgins has since stated that
ministers’ powers are wider than they appear to believe.

I suggest that the minister and the Taoiseach lack open-mindedness. They
ignored the alternative vision for Meath based on Brian Guckian’s
integrated transport plan along with nominating the Tara landscape as a
World Heritage Site and turning the area into a World Heritage Park.
This dogged insistence on a tolled motorway is sinister.

The minister shows a lack of respect in suggesting that many of those
leading the campaign have never been to Meath and did not take part in
the planning process - the chairperson, committee members and many other
opponents attended the oral hearing. Conor Newman was nominated by the
Discovery Programme to give a submission.

The minister maintains that he is ‘open-minded’. He has ignored our
group, the experts the NRA hired, the 320 eminent academics, the
Heritage Council and the director of the National Museum.

The minister argues that the planning process cannot be overturned but
it was overturned along with the County Development Plan in the case of
Woodstown in Waterford. The Taoiseach changed a planning permission to
facilitate a concert in Slane last year.

If this is the face of new Ireland it is not a pretty one. We are
choosing roads as the badge of our economic success rather than health
or education. What a legacy for future generations. What a myopic vision
for our country.

Is An Bord Pleanála more powerful than elected representatives? I hope
that as citizens of Ireland we are still free to protest and voice our
opinions. Or is our democracy defunct?

Yours sincerely,

MUIREANN NÍ BHROLCHÁIN,

PRO, Save the TaraSkryne Valley Group,

58 Laurence Avenue,

Maynooth, Co Kildare.

*Stop digging for Tara’s sake*

ADVERTISEMENT


(Editor, Meath Chronicle)

Dear sir - As an American of Irish descent I cannot express strongly or
loudly enough my complete despair at the intentional ‘cover-up’ by the
Taoiseach and the minister of the environment [and that title is a joke]
regarding the destruction at Tara.

Neither of these politicians are listening to the people, nor are they
concerned with the preservation and protection of one of the most
historically significant and beautiful valleys in Ireland.

Recent photos illustrate the damage that is occurring - and if there
should be artefacts in the layer of topsoil, they are certainly being
crushed by the careless handling of heavy machinery.

At a time when the climate is of the utmost concern and ecosystems all
over the world are endangered, it seems to me that powerful politicians
behind this ridiculous toll road are intent on taking more money from
the people, and desecrating the precious land by doing so.

With heatwaves becoming current events throughout Europe more
heat-retaining macadam and concrete are not the answer. It is obvious
that greed has overpowered and replaced the concerns of the people.

I have walked over the hills and raths of Tara, and my heart hurts to
see what is happening a mere stone’s throw away in the Valley of the Ard
Ri. And yes, this blight will be visible from the hill as will the
inevitable sprawling, polluting development that most certainly will follow.

Shame on you, I say. Your legacy is sad for Ireland: tomorrow’s citizens
and the tourists whose money you happily deposit will not look kindly on it.

Heed the people, respect the law, stop the dig - save Tara.

Yours sincerely,

BEVERLY FAULKNER,

2389 Old Widow

Hill Road,

Penn Yan,

NY 14527,

USA.

*Revulsion at treatment of Tara*

ADVERTISEMENT


(Editor, Meath Chronicle)

Dear sir - I’m writing to express my revulsion at the treatment of the
Hill of Tara, and surrounding areas. Simply put, it is an atrocity!

Topsoil, which is being clumsily removed by machinery that pollutes the
air, is an integral part of the Tara ecosystem, the environment that is
held so dear.

I felt that I should convey my disapproval of this project to you so
that you might convey it to others, in an attempt to raise public
awareness of this issue and eventually rectify the problem. The heritage
minister is acting in a frightfully irresponsible manner and only and
educated public can prevent him from making a dire error.

Yours sincerely,

EMMA MOORE,

15 Pinewood Avenue,

East Greenbush,

New York,

USA

12061

*Questions about Blundelstown*

ADVERTISEMENT


(Editor, Meath Chronicle)

A chara - Many of your readers will have seen photographs of the
archaeological excavations at the base of the Hill of Tara.

Time and time again, the crucial question of whether the M3 and the
Blundelstown interchange would be visible from the hill has been raised,
and the government and the NRA stated it would not.

It is now evident that the interchange will be visible from Tara, and
this now poses grave questions.

Given Tara’s importance to Meath in the areas of heritage and tourism,
why was the foot of Tara chosen for a 28-acre interchange? Why have
government ministers including our Noel Dempsey repeatedly stated that
the interchange would not be visible from Tara when there is now clear
photographic evidence to the contrary?

How will this interchange affect Meath’s image as a heritage-conscious
county, and will there be an impact on tourism?

Is the purpose of 22-ton mechanical diggers currently excavating to
carefully record Ireland’s past at our most significant national site or
is purely to clear the site for the M3 as soon as possible?

It is essential that Ministers Dempsey, Roche, and Cullen respond to
these concerns, and explain why assertions that the M3 would not be
visible from the hill have been so inaccurate.

It is time this government realised that a sledgehammer-like approach to
archaeology in the Tara area is entirely unacceptable to everyone, not
least to the people of Meath.

Meath needs proper transport infrastructure, but it also needs tourism
and heritage. With proper planning these needs are not mutually exclusive.

Is mise,

PEADAR TÓIBÍN,

123 An Coillearnach

An Uaimh.

by John G Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:58

Most people would agree that we need new roads and roads need upgrading etc. And we need factories etc
But the road and that intersection don't need to go at tara. Would you be happy if the road was just moved? I would..

by redjade Wed Jul 20, 2005 14:16

Here's some thoughts....

1) The best Greens spokesperson on this issue has been TD Ciaran Cuffe ( http://www.ciarancuffe.com ) people should email him about their concerns regard the perception that the Greens have gone AWOL - would be good to email him at Ciaran/at/CiaranCuffe.Com

He even has a Blog now http://www.cuffestreet.blogspot.com (with an RSS feed! http://www.cuffestreet.blogspot.com/atom.xml ) - not many politicians with RSS feeds on this Celtic Tiger Island.

2) If people want to talk to the activists involved in the issue it would be good to join the STSV ( http://www.savetara.com )TaraSkreen Mailing List ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taraskreen ) - the messages are public, you do not have to join to read the discussion.

3) Vincent Salafia is currently in the courts on this issue, he needs support, as well. Pressure can be applied in the streets, but the govt has made its decision and probably can only be stopped in the courts - here's his current website: http://hilloftara.info

There is much to be done and people are welcome to join any of these campaigns, or start new ones.

point is, that motorway must NOT go through the Tara-Skryne Valley. And there are many roads to stopping that road.

by Zoe Tunney - Daily Ireland (newspaper) Wed Jul 20, 2005 14:19 z.tunney at dailyireland dot com Belfast 048 90 606 872

Firstly, Sinn Féin have only jumped on the bandwagon in the last couple of weeks (max.). Also, those of you from Meath should check out what your councillors are doing. I haven't heard of any of them opposing the M3. They are opposed to tolls, they want railway bridges included when the new motorway is built, they haven't pushed for an alternative route.

Secondly, Daily Ireland (new all-Ireland daily newspaper for nationalists, available in every county in Ireland) wrote its first article nailing its colour to the mast and questioning the proposed M3, the Monuments Act 2004, Meath County Council, the National Roads Authority, the Irish Government, Fianna Fáil and former Minister of "Environment & Heritage" (I use the term lightly), Martin Cullen on Januray, 10 2005. Check out our coverage.

Any comments write to Daily Ireland.

by ™ protestor Wed Jul 20, 2005 14:34

'Firstly, Sinn Féin have only jumped on the bandwagon in the last couple of weeks (max.)'

I do not think it would be fair to say 'only jumped on the bandwagon' - a quick search at Sinn Féin's website shows they have been on the issue for quite some time - including Meath Councillor Joe Reilly.

I hope, however, that this indymedia post is a sign that Sinn Féin is placing a new emphasis on the Tara-Skryne valley.

here's what I dug up:

Decision to route M3 through Tara and Skyrne valley must be overturned
27 November, 2004
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/7580

M3 motorway can be accommodated but not through Tara/Skryne valley - Cllr Joe Reilly
16 February, 2005
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/8507

Decision to route M3 through Tara will mean M3 will not be built anytime soon
11 May, 2005
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/9520

Search for Tara and M3
http://www.sinnfein.ie/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=tara+m3

by ortem Wed Jul 20, 2005 14:39

Protest?
August 15th 1842, 750,000 people gather on Tara to hear Danial O'Connell.
August 15th. 2005,Tara Day. Word is on the ground that an unknown quantity of people will gather at Tara to surround the Tara/Skryne (Gabhra) Valley on Tara Day. That an aerial photo will be taken to show the world the number of people prepared to stand up and be counted for Tara.
A chance for people to do something physical, a peaceful presence, families, children, young and old, from all different walks of life. Taking the power to take a day off work because they're sick (of the government's attitude to heritage, healthcare, the environment, people's issues etc.)
Will you be there?

by cynical Wed Jul 20, 2005 14:39

I'd like a bluegrass band myself

'the tara-skryne valley boys' has a certain ring to it

don't mean to be sexist but that's bluegrass for you

by cynical Wed Jul 20, 2005 14:42

could we have a egalitarian bluegrass festival too?

- shinners could invite some of the nordie protestant bluegrass crews ;-)

by Doing your Homework Wed Jul 20, 2005 14:57

Joe Reilly has consistently said that the M3 should be routed away from Tara. In fact he has always pointed out that there is only an issue regarding 3km of the 55 kilometre route, and rerouting the M3 should not be a problem.

Joe Reilly, Anne Gibney, Michael Gallagher and Connor Ferguson have consistently stated that the Tara is a place of massive importance.. Just check the letters page and reports in the Meath papers

I hope Sinn Féin responds as that comment re indifference as it is untrue. I know for a fact that Joe in particular has opposed the route since 1999, 6 years before Daily Ireland mentioned the issue.

Maybe some good can come of this though - maybe the Daily Ireland can criticise the Greens and Labour too to establish their interest. And maybe Sinn Féin as a party could row in behind the Meath members. And maybe Daily Ireland could support everyones efforts. And maybe start to expose why the road is really being built there

by ™ Protestor Wed Jul 20, 2005 15:02

'I know for a fact that Joe in particular has opposed the route since 1999, 6 years before Daily Ireland mentioned the issue.'

Daily Ireland started in February 2005 - so, Joe has opposed the route many years before Daily Ireland even exists :-)

http://www.DailyIreland.com

by Shadow DarkFyre - The Domain and Realms Wed Jul 20, 2005 15:44 guardianargreg at yahoo dot com

This is nothing short of a desecration... That vale needs to be left alone... Besides, from what I've seen of the proposed roadway, going through the vale is the long way 'round... Going around the other side of Tara would be the shorter route...

When are we going to rage...

by Dee Wed Jul 20, 2005 16:07

We know they haven't been listening to the concerns. We know that they haven't spoken the truth. And now we know that they can't see what anyone else can see from the Hill of Tara

leadership

by Dee Wed Jul 20, 2005 16:09

Mary Deavy and Maria Fitzgerald are project archeologists for M3. Call them at: 046 9075033 (International +353 46 9075033)

Or call Dáire O'Rourke, senior archeologist with the NRA and Mary Deavy's boss, at 01 6602511 Ext. 282 (International +353 1 6602511 Ext. 282)

Ask them to refrain from using any mechanical excavators between now and the court hearing on July 29th. Ask them to ensure that present soil heaps of desecrated ground sifted immediately.

Leave your name and phone number with your message if they cannot speak with you when you call, and request that they return the call.

by Tara concernee Wed Jul 20, 2005 16:14

Talking about descrated soil and the domains and the realms is great..

As are spells to protect Tara.

But that type of stuff is sinking the Tara campaign. Please don't put our heritage at risk by killing off public support with your make-y up-y as you go along fantasies.

by Ordinary Guy Super Hero Wed Jul 20, 2005 16:18

I will cast a spell -

Toe of newt, eye of frog, wheel of truck, I cast this spell, Druids , Witches, Warlocks and Snakes be gone.

If you are going to do anything with Tara please do it in a way that doesn't damage the campaign

by ortem Wed Jul 20, 2005 16:29

50-80% of archeological objects are found in the topsoil. Heaps of topsoil that are gouged to a depth of up 2 1/2 feet and dumped in heaps with no further interest from archeologists equals desecrated soil........nothing to do with druids.....everything to do with the poorest of archeological methods and totally against the wishes of Dr. Pat Wallace, National Museum of Ireland in his recommendations to our esteemed Minister for the Environment (God help us!)

by TG Wed Jul 20, 2005 17:46

Sinn fein have been very quiet on this but fair play Joe

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain - Save the TaraSkryne Valley Group Wed Jul 20, 2005 17:58 muireann at taraskryne dot org

reading all the interesting material that has appeared today in particular in regards to Tara, the excavations and the campaign in general I feel that I should make some comment here.
There are a number of issues that need to be corrected or addressed.
The campaign has not gone quiet, the fact that the media in not covering what we are sending them again is concern enough. Very few of the press releases or letters that have been sent have been covered.
It has been said that letters etc. are not the way to run a campaign. Letters to the press put pressure on editors to cover certain stories. If there is no interest in the letters pages then a topic will not be covered.
We have been faulted on one post for being mainly academics and druids basically. I put my hand up - yes I am an academic and PRO for the Save TaraSkryne Valley Group since Vincent Salafia resigned. Does my profession then disbarr me from protest? In the past, Woodquay in particular, the academic community has been very vocal and they have been very vocal on this issue.
The issue of egos etc has also been raised along with our inexperience. I take issue with this comment about a "bag of cats" not least because I like cats but seriously, this type of criticism does the campaign no good at all.
Most calls made by our campaign for people to turn up and to protest have fallen on deaf ears. There are a lot of people out there who like to make a lot of noise but when it comes to the crunch and picking up a banner and march or protest - where are they? Conspicuous by their absence.
Various parties have been criticised, The Greens, Sinn Fein and above all the Labour Party have been very supportive of this campaign. Fine Gael have spoken through both sides of their mouth on it especially at local level.
Meath TDs are predominantly Fianna Fail - you can hardly expect them to criticise their own party? Especially as one of them, Noel Dempsey, is responsible for this proposed road in the first place. Blame must be laid where it belongs.
We are planning a protest at the site being excavated soon and I would ask all those people who are criticising us and looking for action to attend.
More on that later -
Finally, do not sit on the sidelines criticising, constructive criticism is always welcome but be constructive and get involved yourself.
Muireann Ni Bhrolchain

by Ordinary Guy Super Hero Wed Jul 20, 2005 18:30

No wonder people think people who want the M3 moved are nuts.

Cop on - playing games will not get that mway moved

And all of this hellfire waffle distracts from Tara's real history. Your games and fantasies will cost Muintear na h-Éireann the Tara valley..

Stay on your own island.

by interested Wed Jul 20, 2005 20:39

who are the 'British Israelites'?

by Genuine Gaelic Lore Wed Jul 20, 2005 20:52

From a lecture featuring stuff from the book of invasions - A SYTHIAN BRANCH - 1940

It is not my intention to give a lesson, deliver a lecture, or tender an advice, but to place before you gleanings garnered from intermittent glances into the past, and a passing survey of the present, so that we may be able to look with hope to the future.

Some thousands of years after the destruction of the Garden of Paradise, or if you wish, some thousands of years ere the dawn of the Christian era, there dwelt, or rather wandered in the East, for all were then Nomads, a people known as the Sythian, a branch of whom I wish to speak about to-night. North West of where Eden stood we find Bethlehem, where the Messiah was born, Christianity cradled, and whence it subsequently spread, West and North West of this again stretched the country that was the home of the Sythian people. Magog, the son of Japhet, the son of Noah, was the great ancestor of these Sythians. The Nemedians, the Firbolgs, the Tuatha de Danaans and the Melisians are all branches of the Sythian Race. Apart from what Revelation makes known we cannot of those by-gone times speak with authority and authenticity. All activities of those early days have been, to subsequent ages, shrouded to a large extent in mist and conjecture and therefore unreliable must be the accounts handed down to us. However, Tradition gives us some interesting and absorbing matter. Historians of every age have given close scrutiny to what has come their way, and by a tactful use of the sieve, aided by processes of inductive and deductive reasoning, have come to the conclusion that such a people did exist. Some there are who tell us the Sythians were an uncouth, cruel and barbarous race, devoid of all human feelings and that cannibalism was not to them unknown. On the other hand ,there are historians of repute who tell us that the laws, customs and manners of the Sythians were copied by other nations who based their standards of policy, civility and polite learning on what the Sythians taught them, also that they were the first after the Flood who attempted to reform mankind into notions of courtesy, into the art of government, and into the practice of good manners, also that the Sythians were never corrupted by the rude and savage behaviour of any other nation. Further that they were always famous for worthy and heroic acts and were always free from the attempts of any other nation, and came off conquerors when they were attacked.

We now come to a date sometime after the failure to build the Tower of Babel. From the time of Adam until the building of the Tower there was but one universal language called Gartigarron, which signifies the human tongue. After the confusion of Babel there arose seventy-two different dialects in addition to the universal tongue of old, which through Divine Intercession was preserved genuine and pure in a family of Heber and is ever since known as the Hebrew language. Feineas or Feinursa, the Sythian Monarch, grandson of Magog, the son of Japhet, dispatched delegates to the various parts of the known world to acquire the different dialects, and having done so, they were to return within seven years. At the end of that time, the delegates having returned, Feineas and his disciples repaired to the Plain of Seanair in Babylon, where Hebrew was spoken in its purity, to establish the first seat of learning since the confusion of Babel. Over this school Feineas presided for twenty years, until his son, Niul, had become acquainted with the various tongues. Then he returned to Sythia where he established another school over which he placed his son Gaedheal, giving special instructions to have the Gaelic Dialect arranged and regulated. This was eighty years after the failure of Babel, or about 242 years after the Flood. Here then, is the spring from which our Gaelic speech issued. Hebrew, Gaelic, Greek and Latin, were the principal languages, and were inscribed upon tablets of wood. On the death of Feineas, Meanul his son, became Monarch. To Niul, the profits to be derived from the teaching of the sciences and the various languages were bequeathed.

Years passed and Pharaoh invited Niul to Egypt to teach his people, and in return, as a reward, Niul got Campus Circit a land near the Red Sea, likewise Pharaoh gave him his daughter Scota in marriage. This union was blessed with the birth of a son Gaedheal (Glas).

At this time the Israelites were being persecuted by Pharaoh, and in their efforts to make good their escape encamped near Camputs Circit, where Niul dwelt. Niul, on learning the story and persecution of his new neighbours and learning also that they were not Egyptians, but came from a land convenient to Sythia, treated them with characteristic kindness, and furnished them with corn and all other necessaries which his country produced. For this Moses and Aaron were deeply grateful. It happened that Gaedheal (Glas) was wounded by a venomous serpent. Niul took the youth to Moses, who, while praying, applied his rod to the wound and healed it, but there remained a green spot where the wound was. From this green spot the Prince was ever after galled Gaedheal Glas. Moses, having so miraculously cured the child, then prophesied that wherever that young prince or his posterity should inhabit, that country should never be infested by a venomous creature. This prediction is fulfilled in the Island of Crete (Candea) where some of the descendants of this prince remain to this day. No poisonous serpents live in this Island, but die immediately on arrival there, as they do in Ireland. (St. Patrick banished the serpents in Ireland, but this assertion depends on the figurative manner of the expression, which is to be understood of devils and infernal spirits). Niul now dreaded the displeasure of Pharaoh because of his kindness to Moses, to whom he communicated his fears. Moses then delivered the ships which belonged to the Crown of Egypt to Niul and from these ships Niul an d his followers on the invitation of Moses, witnessed the following day the opening of the Red Sea and the passing of the Israelites to safety and when the closing of the waters, and the destruction of Pharaoh and his warriors in all their vaunted power and pomp. Niul, on observing that Pharaoh and his hosts were destroyed, resolved to return and fix himself and his people in their former settlement.

In due course Niul passed away and was succeeded by Gaedheal Glas, who in time went to his reward, and was succeeded by Easru, who was succeeded by Sru. The time came when the Egyptians made war on Sru and his people, who, like the Israelites had to fly the land. On four of the ships they had got from Moses, they fled to Crete, where Sru died. Under Heber Scot they reached Sythia the home of their forefathers, where their kinsman gave them a not too friendly welcome. After five generations they were again expelled and made their way Westward via the Caspian to Europe. By putting wax in the ears of his people Caicheor the Druid (priest) defeated the designs of the Mermaids, who, by their music, sought to lull them to sleep, and then to their destruction. Night generations passed ere they reached Spain, via the Danube, Viatula, Gothland, the Rhine and the Rhone, under Bratha, after whom Braganza in Portugal is called. Breogan son of Bratha, founded the Tower of Breaghan in Corunna. He had ten sons, one of whom, Bile, was Father of Mileadh whose descendants ever since are known as the Miliseans.

Milidh, educated and ambitious, set sail for the East to visit the lands of his ancestors. He steered his course through the Western Sea till he came to the Mediterranean, and sailing eastward called at various ports, visited Crete and finally reached Sythea. The King of Sythia received him with great civility and made him in time, Prime Minister and Generalissimo of all his forces. He bestowed his daughter Seang upon him, by whom he had two sons Conn and Aireach. Milidh because of his successful leadership and many victories became the darling of the people. This raised jealousy in the King, he determined to dispatch him. Milidh becoming informed of the King’s designs, forced his way into the Palace and killed the King. The Miliseans then returned to their ships and left Sythia. They steered to the Nile and landed in Egypt. Seang had died before they left. Milidh was well received in Egypt and married one of the princesses named Scota. Two sons, Eibhear and Amheargan were born of this marriage. After seven years, meantime having successfully assisted Pharaoh against the Ethopians, he and his followers set out for home. On about fifty ships they crossed the Mediterranean to Thrace where Ir was born (from this Ir, Ireland gets its name). Soon after Milidh and his people left Thrace, crossed many countries until they came to the island of Gothland (Baltic) where Colpa was born. (Colpa was drowned afterwards in the Boyne – hence Colpa (Colpe) near Drogheda). From hence, the Miliseans sailed until they arrived at Alba (Scotland) a country inhabited by the Picts. They landed and plundered the country and having conveyed their booty to their ships they sailed away, leaving Britain on the right and the Continent on the left. Continuing their course West by South, they arrived at Biscay at Spain where they landed their spoils, and went ashore. Milidh’s arrival soon spread. He found Spain in a most deplorable condition under the Goths and other foreigners who took advantage of his absence and over-ran and ransacked the whole country. Milidh summoned to his aid the remnants of the Gaelic people, and they, with those who followed him, under his leadership, routed the Goths and their auxiliary foreigners, so that all Spain became subject to him.

The Miliseans increased to be a numerous progeny. The scarcity of corn and other provisions, because of the burning heats and dryness of the season, and the incessant inroads of the Goths and other foreigners, compelled them to attempt the conquest of some other country. Having met in council on this matter it was agreed that Ith, the son of Braoghan, a prince of valour and daring, learning and prudence, should make a discovery of the western Island which prediction foretold should be inhabited their people. Ith in due course, set off and arrived I the north coast of Ireland. When he landed, the inhabitants called in Irish or Gaelic to him to know his business and whence he came. He answered them in the same language. Both were branches of the Sythian people, who as we have already seen, arranged and regulated the Gaelic tongue. Ireland at the time was known as Innis Kelga and was under the dominion of three Nemedian princes, the sons of Cearmada Morbheoil. Ith acting as umpire, settled a dispute that had arisen between the princes and gave such satisfaction in his decision, that all three were equally satisfied. Ith was so lavish in his praise of the country, its air, its beauty and fertility that the Princes feared he would return to his people, bring them back and invade their home. As a result they attacked and wounded him. Ith and his soldiers reached their boats and made good their escape. Ith died at sea. His corpse was brought to Spain and the sight of his dead body so incited the Miliseans that they, to avenge his death, set sail under Milidh’s sons (Milidh being dead at this time) accompanied by the Queen Mother Scota, and forty leaders among whom were Cuadla, Cusligne, Fuad, Muirtheanne, Lughbhaidh, Eibhlinne, Eibhear, Ir, Colpa (sword) Ammheirgean (poet) and Aronn. Spain at this time was rent to pieces by wars and the inroads of the Goths.

The number of their ships was thirty, with thirty picked troops in every ship, together with their wives and followers. They reached the coast of Inver Slaine (Wexford) where they attempted to land.

The Tuata de Danaans, alarmed at the number of their ships, immediately cast a cloud over the whole island, so that the Miliseans were confounded, and they thought they saw nothing but the resemblance of an immense bog, and for this reason the Island was called Muicinnis. The Miliseans were hindered from landing and were obliged to sail around the island. At last the came ashore at Inver Sceine (Kenmare) so called from Sceine, Amheirgean’s wife, who was lost there. Proceeding to Tara they encountered on their way the Danaan Queens, Banba, Fodla and Kire and their Druids as well as the royal sons Eathur, Ceathur and Carmuid. A Challenge to battle ensured. Prior to the battle it was greed that the Miliseans should go back nine waves to sea. If they could effect a landing they should have sway in the country. The Miliseans embarked, but no sooner had they withdrawn than the Tuatha de Dannaans set to work and raised a terrific storm. Many of their leaders were drowned, one of whom Ir, (born at Thrace) was buried at Sheilig Mhichil (Kerry).

Eibhear and others landed at Inver Sceine. They encountered Eire (with of Mac Breine) and her warriors at Sliabh Mis (Kerry). The Danaans were routed. Scota the Queen Mother was slain. Eire surviving hurried to Tara with the news. Meantime, Eiremon and his followers had sailed round to Inver Colpa (Boyne) where Colpa – Colpa of the sword, was drowned. They were met on landing by Eibhear and the survivors of Sliabh MIs who had journeyed northwards. United they marched to Tailteann where they met and defeated the Tuath de Danaans in battle. The three Kings of the Danaans, Mac Greine, Mac Cuill and Mac Ceacht and their Queens, Eire, Fodla and Banba were killed. The remnants of the Tuat de Danaans were put to flight. In pursuing them northwards two Milisean chiefs, Fuad and Cuailigne fell (Fuad – in Armagh South and Cuailigne – Cooley ). The Danaans were completely routed and the government of the Island fell into the hands of the Miliseans. Thus another branch of the Sythians came into possession of Innisfail.

The Miliseans brought with them in their expedition skilful musicians, eminent poets, noted scholars and scientists, many mechanical persons of several occupations, and a number of workmen skilled in husbandry.

The Princess, Tea, daughter of Lughbeidh, son of Ith and wife of Eiremon, son of Milidh, erected the Royal palace at Teamhair (Tara) Muir, signifies a seat or palace, i.e. Palace of Tea.

The names Niul, Gaedheal, Colpa and others so much on our lips to-day must help to convince the sceptical that there is some truth in our legendary lore, and that we of to-day can trace our ancestry back to the days of Moses. It has been already said that the Sythians have been described as a people of the lowest type, if this is true, it tasks one to credit it. True, the then standard of civilized man were not, and could not be expected to be, at the high water mark the people of to-day boast of, but whatever the then standards of civilization may have been, the descendants of Niul and Gaedheal Glas, wherever they roamed, have proved themselves to be a brave, determined and warlike people, and it must be admitted that Feineas and his scholars were not intellectually barren. Rather one is led to believe that qualities, physical and mental , of the best and noblest, were not unknown to the Sythians, other wise how could they know their way, so successfully as they did in unknown lands, beset on all sides by enemies and not a friendly hand to aid them. Wherever these Sythians, or Miliseans, or Celts sojourned, there they left behind that of which any people might be proud, and if other less civilized hordes, on occasions routed them on, it was because of a greater dose, perhaps, of the curse of the cruel Cain in one, and a greater share of the cultural and intellectual gifts of the gentle Able in the other.

So much for the gleanings of the past. What of the passing survey of the present? Do we not today find the descendants of Gaedheal Glas who have made their home in this ocean bound Isle of ours, returning to the East, and wandering to the West, to give spiritual balm to a weary and demoralized world, as they did in Ireland’s Golden Age when Irish Missionaries re-lit the lamp of Christianity in a barbarous Europe, and a semi-civilized pagan Britain, and are not other sons scattered from pole to pole in frigid wastes and tropical jungles turning victory into defeat, and defeat into victory, with that inherent courage, and peerless valour, that had characterised their forefathers in the immediate as well as in the legendary past? These gleaning of by-gone days coupled with an unbiased survey of the present justifies a conclusion that there must have been assigned to the Gael a heritage other than that of wordly domination.

Truly it may be said that there is not a known land, where pioneer work had to be done, whether it be in Canadian forests, Missourian Prairies, South American Ranches, Indian Jungle, African Plains or Australian Deserts, that the footprints of the Gael may not be traced, nor a sea that laves the shores from pole to pole, that Celtic Mariners have not crossed, in voyages or exploration, nor a battlefield in history, whether on land or sea, in which Irish blood has not been spilled, nor a missionary field in which the soft accent and consoling word of the Gael, enlightening the ignorant, comforting the troubled and encouraging the weak, has not been heard.

Has not our Island Home witnessed the birth and burial of many a mighty Empire, whilst she fearlessly struggled on, and firmly kept her foothold. True, the times were stormy and villainous at periods, clouds lowered menacingly and storms howled savagely and mercilessly on occasions, yet, withal, she withstood the attacks and onslaughts no matter whence they came, and to-day the children of Milidh play not an ignoble part, and espouse not an unworthy cause, in a cunning, treacherous world; and when the many actors on the stage at the moment have passed off unlamented, is it too much to hope that the descendant of Niul, Gael Glas and Milidh, will in the future, manfully play their part and thus nobly uphold the name and fame of their brave and proud progenitors.

W. P. ALLEN
27 Samhain, 1940

by MTH - N/A Wed Jul 20, 2005 21:45

The M3 Interchange in Co.Meath must be stopped from being developed. There is so much history surrounding Tara , which will be destoyed if this outrageous development goes ahead. The Hill of Tara is an ancient historical site, of highly significant importance. It is shameful that the people behind such outrageous plans for a hideous flood lit interchange do not know their Irish history and how disrespectful and arrogant of them if they do, to allow such a beautiful and meaningful place be damaged and destroyed. Shame on them and all of those who are in support of this. The core of our Irish heritage will be irreparably destroyed. I like hundreds of others, will be devastated if this goes ahead. We must prevent this horrendous alteration to our beautiful landscape from going ahead!

by ortem Wed Jul 20, 2005 22:01

If you're wondering how many Madam has binned you should 'phone to ask her at 01 472 7100 (International +353 1472 7100).
You won't get to speak to her (leave a message anyway) but you might get to speak to lettersed, her underling. and who knows, maybe they'll take them out of the bin, smooth them out and print them.

by cynical Wed Jul 20, 2005 23:18

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Muireann: The campaign has not gone quiet, the fact that the media in not covering what we are sending them again is concern enough. Very few of the press releases or letters that have been sent have been covered. It has been said that letters etc. are not the way to run a campaign. Letters to the press put pressure on editors to cover certain stories. If there is no interest in the letters pages then a topic will not be covered.
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Cynical: All the details of this story are already in the public domain and it has been thrashed out ad nauseum in the Irish and International press. Before Dick Vader made his decision the editors of irish papers, radio and tv programmes etc gave it a hell of a lot of coverage. Now they are ignoring it. I guess some of them don't want to be seen to challenge vested interests (construction industry / NTR / Property Speculators) and some reckon the campaign is essentially over as all the criticism in the World did not stop Dick Roche from essentially giving the green light for a pre-emptive raid while all are on holidays etc.

Secondly there is no appetite in media here to challenge what is seen as legal work. That's why no outlet besides indymedia will print stuff straightforwardly saying the valley is being desecrated and that it is based on lies and the massaging of vested interests.

Thirdly you should realise that campaign has to an extent been 'played' in the hip-hop sense of the word by various outlets most notably the sunday tribune who used it to sell papers and then when it actually mattered dropped their whole 'save tara' campaign like a hot rock.

Fourthly I reckon some have halted cverage because they see no visible outcry or dissent or public reaction leading them to think that there is no depth of feeling about the issue.
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Muireann: We have been faulted on one post for being mainly academics and druids basically. I put my hand up - yes I am an academic and PRO for the Save TaraSkryne Valley Group since Vincent Salafia resigned. Does my profession then disbarr me from protest? In the past, Woodquay in particular, the academic community has been very vocal and they have been very vocal on this issue.
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Cynical: No-one is faulting anyone for being an academic or anyone for being a druid. The Save tara Skryne campaign was highly effective in mobilising publicity , the academic community and elite opinion for a long period of time. Doing the same again no matter how well will not stop the road. Something else needs to happen and maybe people are pointing out that neither a letter from 1000 academics and archeologists nor a druids ceremony will make a difference now. You shouldn't be touchy about this. Most people on this thread have been informed through your campaigning and most are trying to point out new and different tactics for a new and different situation.
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Muireann: The issue of egos etc has also been raised along with our inexperience. I take issue with this comment about a "bag of cats" not least because I like cats but seriously, this type of criticism does the campaign no good at all.
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Cynical: Every campaign has rows and differences and falling outs. This is just a statement of fact. To pretend all is well with the campaign in the face of those diggers at work is unconvincing. Y'all need help and should ask for it and be gracious enough to see constructive criticism and opinion. No successful campaign on this type of issue can come from a sense of ownership on behalf of a core group which takes criticisms personally.
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Muireann: Most calls made by our campaign for people to turn up and to protest have fallen on deaf ears. There are a lot of people out there who like to make a lot of noise but when it comes to the crunch and picking up a banner and march or protest - where are they? Conspicuous by their absence.
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I don't accept this either - the one well planned march about the issue was very successful: all the ceremonies and photooppurtunities at Tara have worked out very well. However the only call for a protest since the digging started was published here a couple of days before Vincent S. went to court and at very short notice called for a large protest in the morning of a working day in July. Not a recipe for an effective demonstration.

Some of the ideas in the thread above are good in my opinion and might point out a way of building a populist campaign. I really think the Aug 15th Monster Meeting Daniel O'Connell style idea is a great idea.

Maybe a bunch of small demonstrations or actions like the GPS co-ordinates mapping/sketching the area that should be protected idea I saw on your mailing list, like the open to all saturday gathering idea, like the constant monitoring of excavations idea, and even maybe a couple of celebrety photoshoots promoting a large event would change the tenor of the campaign and broaden and popularise the event.

This is a one shot deal and people need to be told it's now or never and be guided as to how to get stuck in in some other way than encouraging them to write to the papers or phone politicians. It's all been done and doing it again is futile and people realise that I think in the main.

The brand recognition of the campaign and public knowledge of the issues are very high. It has majority support. It just needs to be put to work. 5 politicians (or archeologists or academics or whoever) lying in the dirt in front of a digger is worth a thousand letters to madam at this stage.

Call the whole country to Tara with a run in of 2-3 weeks and then you will find out in one day if the campaign can make a difference and how wide and deep the support is.
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Muireann: Various parties have been criticised, The Greens, Sinn Fein and above all the Labour Party have been very supportive of this campaign. Fine Gael have spoken through both sides of their mouth on it especially at local level. Meath TDs are predominantly Fianna Fail - you can hardly expect them to criticise their own party? Especially as one of them, Noel Dempsey, is responsible for this proposed road in the first place. Blame must be laid where it belongs.
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Cynic: Agreed - but you cannot rely on politicians to provide leadership. The way to deal with them as the rossport 5 campaign is doing is to lead and let them follow or appear irrelevant. labour and greens have got absolutely oodles of publicity from This but are reluctant to be in any way 'disobedient' when it's been given the go ahead with some pseudo-legal vodoo. They are trying to avoid difficul contentious issues because they all want o go into coalition with FG and want to be looked on favourably by the business community as they need funding. DEMAND they get involved in a tangible way and if they don't then forget them.
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Muireann: We are planning a protest at the site being excavated soon and I would ask all those people who are criticising us and looking for action to attend.
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Cynical: Will do, but please open up your approach and tactics and overall plan to constructive criticism as you go. And build towards a big event while the summer is still here. Give people lots of notice, and ask the 'community' here and elsewhere for ideas and suggestions.
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Muireann: Finally, do not sit on the sidelines criticising, constructive criticism is always welcome but be constructive and get involved yourself.
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Cynic: Sounds good :-). Final point - link with Mayo: The Administration is destroying our heritage and giving away our natural resources.

by Andrew McGrath Wed Jul 20, 2005 23:42 momcgrath at eircom dot net

Writing outraged letters to the media is all very well, but the fact is this: Our government knows perfectly well they are destroying heritage. That is their intention. That is why heritage protection law was changed in 2004 in defiance of a Supreme Court opinion.

I would like to hear from anyone who would be interested in alternative strategies to those which have so far been tried: for example, inviting observers from universities abroad to observe the methods on the ground, conducting sit-ins and so forth. Assertive action is now needed.

by Joe Soap Tara Protester - Non alligned Save Tara Valley Thu Jul 21, 2005 00:08

No Organiser, just a time and a date to be there.

As it appears that the Tara issue is being hi-jacked at times, and that some people have a problem being associated with particular groups, a non-alligned protest is planned for 7.30pm on Thursday 28th of July at the site of the Tara dig, beside the Tara na Rí pub.

All and everybody welcomed provided their interest is in genuinely saving the Tara valley, rerouting of M3 and ending the digging.
To make it easy for everyone, the protest will be at 7.30pm meeting at the Tara na Rí pub beside the current dig site.

The protest is timed to coincide with the court hearing the next day, and will not be run organised by any group or individual.

The Tara na Rí pub is on the main Dublin Navan bus route.

This protest is not intended to be the only protest. However it will suit those whose only interest is the preservation of the Tara valley.

It will be worth seeing first hand the destruction of the diggers.

If you are a member of a party or group, spread the word.

No Organiser, just a time and a date to be there.

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=71023

by George Thu Jul 21, 2005 00:13

I must admit to finding a lot of the comments on this page more than a little odd.

For how long have the Save Tara Campaign group been asking for help? And now they have had to divert resources to fighting a court battle they get a slagging for not doing enough!

At least now I know what to expect when my own campaign comes to head in September - exactly the same calls from people who watched the press, watched the individuals who sacrificed their lives to make Tara the issue it is today and now the budozers are in and start complaining that the wrong people are campaigning because they are not doing what you think they should do.

Then you lay into everyone who has been supporting the campaign for not thinking the same way you do. And now you want to set up your own campaign because you don't want to associate with the stereotypes you have allowed the media create.

Yes - Action is needed now, but fighting about who has the right to protest is not - get in and help the Save Tara Campaign - show the world that all people care about Tara and that cultural differences do not matter when such an important issue is at stake - stand together and win - The campaign has done all the groudwork - all that is needed is a very clear public message to the politicians - they are wrong and this must stop.

I spoke at the UK's Green Party annual conference in 2003 about my own campaign at Thornborough (this is a site of similar importance and size to Tara in the UK), I've asked them for comment and invited them to address a gathering of 1,500 people - not a thing - even though we share the same press officer.

You have to accept the support you are given - it is no surprise that people who have a spiritual connection to these ancient sites provide the most vocal support.

Support the people with the commitment and courage to see this thing through to the bitter end - recognise their sacrifices and help them. The Tara/Skreen group have been unstinting in their work.

At a meeting in Peterborough the other day a green party spokesman said that their campaigns relied on ignorance. Scare tactics may work when it comes to unseeable chemicals in the atmosphere but this is heritage - knowledge is power.

by Tinman Thu Jul 21, 2005 03:15

I agree with George. As an Irishman and a Northern one at that I understand only to well that bickering with each other will get us nowhere. I does not matter why we want to stop this monstrosity, everyone's reason is different, spiritual, cultural, historical whatever. We need numbers and at the moment that means everyone we can get- Boring normal people and weirdos alike.

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain - Save the TaraSkryne Valley Group Thu Jul 21, 2005 03:21 muireann at taraskryne dot org

Thanks for the comments and they will be taken on board. Thanks for the support as well.
There will be a protest at the site that they are excavating just north of Tara (marked clearly by signs) right hand side of the N3 on the way from Dublin to Navan - just where the gate is. Monday 25th 6.45pm. That is the time that people feel they can be available. Can people be there? Presence where your keyboard is ...
Be there if you care. Get your political party/ group to get representatives there.
There is no better time to show your disgust at what the Government is doing to our country. This is true whether it be the Rossport 5, Tara, Waterford, wind farms in the wrong place ... I could go on and on and on ... yes, I know I'm new to protest at a national level.

by Sinn Féin supporter Thu Jul 21, 2005 07:00

Arthur Griffith and other members of Sinn Féin saved Tara 100 years ago from being dug up.

In the year of the 100 bhlian do your part. Row in with Muireann and the Save Tara Skryne valley group.

Pls circulate this to all Sinn Féin members and supporters that you know - now is when it matters.

by politico Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:31

Noel Dempsey is the local FF minister in Meath. There is your connection

by info please Thu Jul 21, 2005 13:45

I'm in Dublin, I looked at the confusing savetara.com website but I could not find when or where meetings are or if there are meeting in Dublin.

Am I missing the info?

by There you go Thu Jul 21, 2005 14:23

'I'm in Dublin, I looked at the confusing savetara.com website but I could not find when or where meetings are or if there are meeting in Dublin.

Am I missing the info'

no there are no protests in dublin - thats the point of all the mails above.

to quote an earlier comment 'bandwagon? there isn't even a band'..

thsi is why the diggers are in full swing

by info please response Thu Jul 21, 2005 14:39

The savetara site says nothing about protesting but it does have a cartoon of people blocking a bulldozer. forget about it there is no campaign, just good graphic designers

by Badman Thu Jul 21, 2005 14:58

To Muireann: I should emphasise that my criticism above is entirely genuine and was supposed to be constructive. I do not question the rights of academics or druids to be part of the campaign at all and I salute all who have done something to stop this road. However, I do think it is important to be honest and frank with the analysis of the campaign at this stage when there is still a chance of stopping the road. Perhaps my analysis is a bit blunt and brutal, but I reckon that most people who have been following the campaign will recognise more than a grain of truth in it.

I also think that it has prompted some very worthwhile discussion above and some useful ideas. In particular I think that it is crucial to organise a public demonstration at the site of the building works with lots of advance notice and as much publicity as ye can muster.

Contrary to redjade above, I think that all the evidence suggests that high court cases are never effective at effecting change in government policy unless they are backed up by real pressure outside the courts. If there was a campaign of civil disobedience aimed at obstructing the construction (or destruction) work, I think the chances of success in the courts would be enormously increased. At this stage, I think it is clear that the attempt to stop the road through public opinion and intellectual and legal argument has failed. The government decisively lost the debate but the diggers have started. Any campaign that doesn't have the capacity to take action at some stage is just too easy to ignore, especially when there is no real electoral threat in the area.

Once again, I apologise for being so brutal in my analysis and I assure you that I am supportive of all the work that the campaign has done.

by supporter Thu Jul 21, 2005 15:32

Dead right. The campaign needs to inform people that heavy diggers are being used and that artifacts can be found in the topsoil. As well as that they seem to be driving over the dug up earth with the excavators.

It also needs to be active on the ground. If you don't have this then the courts will be less sympathetic to legal challenges, because it doesn't help if there is an impression that there is no real public concern anymore.

In reference to another comment, I think writing letters does help to remind the media that this is happening. The Tara-Skryne website does need to be updated though. And it might help if it was more mainstream, and offered help on how to help even if you aren't able to participate in protests

by cynical Thu Jul 21, 2005 17:50

http://www.indymedia.ie/index.php?region=meath

Klik it and See

by klik it Thu Jul 21, 2005 17:57

'How to spread tara news Effectively: Indymedia meath: Put Link On all tara Related Sites'

Good start but the SaveTara site has to be sorted out. People want to help - STSV need to show leadership and gather in all of the threads.

Need to 'put 'em under pressure'

by Breaking News Thu Jul 21, 2005 18:00

I called. They are all on holiday or going on holiday

by cynical Thu Jul 21, 2005 18:04

Most people involved in tara and other issues are on their holidays : working : and don't get paid

by Breaking News Thu Jul 21, 2005 18:09

Why hasn't Adams, or Crowe et al gone down to show an interest? Its a disaster

by cynical Thu Jul 21, 2005 18:26

DIY Style

http://www.indymedia.ie/eventcalendar.php?topic=®ion=meath&language=

by cynical Thu Jul 21, 2005 19:07

It was there an hour ago.

"Group Not Found
There is no group called taraskreen. Please make sure you typed the web address correctly. If you have done so, the group may no longer exist.
You may also search or browse for groups on the Yahoo! Groups Home Page."

by concerned Thu Jul 21, 2005 19:55

Getting mystified here. Which day is the protest? Which is the better protest and what is being organised?

by concerned Thu Jul 21, 2005 19:59

One is organised by group with no campaign. The other seems to be a campaign with no group.

Which one is attracting the celebraties? Which one will be popular?

by cynic Thu Jul 21, 2005 20:13

I'd hire a bus for each and start text messaging and alerting media about both at once

oh and have an open meeting soon in dublin

by Tadhg Thu Jul 21, 2005 22:19

I agree with George.
All groups and everyone who is concerned about Tara and the destruction that is imminent should work "with" the existing groups.
That means support the Save Tara-Skryne Valley campaign and give your support to the court case being taken by Vincent Salafia.

Criticisms can be good but advice and action is better.
Please volunteer to Help the STSV, they are a tiny group and need people. They need a group at least 3 times their size to conduct the campaign as effectively as possible.
Go to this page to contact the group:
http://www.savetara.com/modules.php?name=Contact

So those who have criticisms on "actions", please volunteer with the group to help in organising and mobilising for such "actions".
Those who have criticisms of media exposure please volunteer to help Muireann on PR work.
Those who want to see a benefit gig please volunteer to help organise this - or at least pass on your artist contacts.
Those who have criticisms of the website please volunteer to help improve it.
If you have experience in mobilising a generally apathetic public then pleas help to get the word out and to organise local information events.
Those who have experience and advice for conducting the campaign on any front please volunteer.

The contacts page again if you wish to volunteer is:
http://www.savetara.com/modules.php?name=Contact
Plus you have Muireann's email from a previous comment above.

There must be one overriding goal amongst all those who are concerned and that is to "Save Tara".
thanks a lot
Tadhg

by Vincent Salafia Thu Jul 21, 2005 22:56 salafia at gmail dot com

Hi everyone,

It is good to see the debate on the current situation at Tara opening up. Clearly, there is a need for action, but before shooting off half-cocked, consider the big picture.

My immediate response is hold off on on-the-ground protest, at Tara. I say this because the court proceedings are about to come to a head very soon, (days) and the restraint shown so far by objectors has been remarkable. This restraint will prove very very important in court, as there has been no lawbreaking on our part, while the authorities have taken more than enough rope to hang themselves.

In addition, as noted above, the campaign has huge broad support, from the academic community to the average commuter. Moving onto the ground at Tara too soon, will color things.

The motorway was mooted in 2000. It was approved in 2003. The campaign has been successful overall, in putting pressure on the Government and publicising the events. With one week to go, and with the high moral ground firmly underfoot, I think it would be reckless to go to protest/da mode on the ground.

That is not to say there should be no demonstration at all in the coming week. There are many things that could be done. but whatever it is it must be populist. What about a city centre campaign, or artistic protest. What about going outside MCC or NRA or the archaeology company? What about a large public meeting in Dublin, where you are likely to get numbers. Let's face it, a handful of people in the middle of nowhere is not going to accomplish anything, considering that the High Court will be making a decision on the continuation of works very shortly.

Ultimately, a political decision will be needed to change the route. Fianna Fail must be brought to task. Why not go outside their offices, and show the real culprits.

Now, if the High Court does not stop works, then it is a different story. It will be a long time before a Supreme Court appeal can be heard. If no injunction is in place, then other means will be needed to stop works. But for now, we have placed our trust in the law. A lot of time and energy has gone into putting this case together, and it is about to hit. Please give it the space it deserves.

I know people are angry about the works. But this is not full excavation. The experts have held their powder until now, awaiting a full hearing. The opposition looks so bad. Their methods are clearly of the Caterpillar school of archaeology, and we even have Meath County Council and NRA fighting over methods. That is why the bulldozers have withdrawn. Cease and desist letters have been sent and the appropriate time has been given to respond.

Finally, the NRA and MCC etc would love it if a few 'protestor' looking people show up and look like some marginalised minority. A recent public survey showed that 70% of the public want the M3 rerouted. Any protest needs to be refelctive of that reality. Otherwise you are doing Tara and everyone else a disservice.

Cheers,

Vincent

by cynic Thu Jul 21, 2005 23:02

And If I ever saw half cocked behavior it was you unilaterally shutting down list where people with good intentions were communicating and organising. Go fight your case but don't begin to think you own the issue or Tara.

And as for your advice - Are photo - opportunity type protests only advisable at tara when you advise. Tara is where it's happening and as it happens there is much more pleasure I reckon to be gained from seeing Tara after office hours than there is seeing an empty FF HQ after office hours.

Two protests at Tara have now been called as the calendar here on indymedia shows. If you want a city centre protest then you call it but please this time weekend if not evening WITH DECENT Notice.

by Fair Comment Thu Jul 21, 2005 23:05

I am glad that there is a controlled considered voice in all of this.

This project needs leadership.

by cynic Thu Jul 21, 2005 23:05

Do You? I very sincerely doubt that at 7 in the evening there is going to be anything going on to have DA against. More like witnessing I would say.

by tara phobic Thu Jul 21, 2005 23:20

let the druids take over the place thatwhats needed. spells to make the media appreciate the freelove and happy huggy stuff
15 seconds of fame to castings of spells before the campaign crash and burns

prediction of the week is watch the road blockers kill their own campaign because its more important to be a hippy druid than save thevalley

by cynic Thu Jul 21, 2005 23:28

Nobody said anything about druids or blocking roads so off back into your troll hole.

by Worried Thu Jul 21, 2005 23:30

Take it easy everyone - do your own things, but do them responsibly..

by Tadhg Thu Jul 21, 2005 23:30

I think a peaceful protest can be a very good thing at any stage, particularly if its substantial enough to bring publicity. That is what this issue needs right now.

You probably will not get any publicity if only a handful turn up.
But a even a few hundred appearing down at the dig site would I think help to rengage the media.

Organisation and publicity work is required on the ground in Dublin and Meath well in advance - this requires volunteers. So I suggest helping the STSV campaign to organise such an event for 1 month from now (for example) by volunteering.
Again go to: http://www.savetara.com/modules.php?name=Contact

The goal of the protest has to be common and clear.

I do not have the detail on the level of archaeological damage already done but if its low then I think its not yet the time for Direct action.

Please stop being confrontational with each other and instead confront our TD's, the Minister and Bertie with your outrage.

by Andrew McGrath Fri Jul 22, 2005 00:22 momcgrath at eircom dot net

While I appreciate the efforts of Vincent and other campaigners, I think there is no reason that demonstrations should not be organised at the site. The international perspective is key to this: the more people who can be persuaded to show up and participate in a blockade, the more media exposure this campaign gets (I mean the campaign to stop the criminals who are doing this).

I want to make the point clear: the National Monuments Act 2004 is unconstitutional, and the State is acting in contempt of the 2003 Supreme Court opinion, which found that the State has a constitutional duty to protect heritage. It is not even monitoring what is going on at Tara. This is State criminality, and must be stopped.

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain - Save the TaraSkryne Valley Group Fri Jul 22, 2005 00:46 muireann at taraskryne dot org

This is the message that we have displayed on the front page of our website:
Those interested please visit the website and sign up.
Vincent Salafia was sole owner of the mailing list and has chosen to close it .
Muireann Ni Bhrolchain
PRO

Vincent Salafia, formerly PRO for this group, has unilaterally closed the taraskreen mailing list, the main discussion forum for the campaign over the last two years.

We are concerned and disappointed at this development, which happened without warning to the list.

Those interested in the court case should refer to the new Salafia list taralitigation@yahoogroups.com

Those interested in continuing all other discussions on Tara can sign up to this site by clicking here.


Search in Save Tara Skryne Valley Campaign

Save Tara Skryne Valley Campaign

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain - Save the TaraSkryne Valley Group Fri Jul 22, 2005 00:53 muireann at taraskryne dot org

Just to emphasise again - protest at excavation site Monday 25th July 6.45 pm.
The site is on the right hand side of the road after Tara and is well sign posted by the archaeological company. There is a large gate and from that the site is visible.
Gather there and make whatever banner you want as long as its about Tara and only Tara.

Many politicians are away at present.

Another protest organised for Teamhair na Ri pub just north of Tara on the way to Navan from Dublin for the 28th July.

by Badman Fri Jul 22, 2005 00:54

"My immediate response is hold off on on-the-ground protest, at Tara. I say this because the court proceedings are about to come to a head very soon, (days) and the restraint shown so far by objectors has been remarkable. This restraint will prove very very important in court, as there has been no lawbreaking on our part, while the authorities have taken more than enough rope to hang themselves."

You seem to be suggesting that the high courts make judgements on the grounds of the relative moral behaviour of people who are vaguely associated with those taking cases. This is simply a bizzare opinion and it certainly does nothing to mitigate my pessimism about this campaign. Furthermore, at a time when the bulldozers have been active for some weeks it is extraordinary that the campaign is apparently more concerned with _stopping_ people protesting than it is with stopping the diggers.

Even if the campaign has taken a strategic decision not to protest until after the court case (which would be ill advised in my opinion), surely you should be preparing the ground for protests in case there is an unfavourable outcome in the courts. You appear to be of the opinion that any such moves would damage the chances of the case succeeding. That is a terrible misunderstanding of how the state institutions work, in my opinion. All historic precedents suggest that the probability of court decisions against the state is directly proportional to the amount of pressure on the streets and not the opposite. How on earth you can call on people to 'place our trust in the law' when you see what is happening in Rossport at the moment?

Of course, it can be wrong, but my crystal ball tells me that the impending court case is certain to fail to stop the diggers. It will fail in such a way that another legal option will be presented to you. The government decided a long time ago that despite public opinion they would not face any serious payback if they pressed ahead with this project and it looks like they were right.

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain - Save the TaraSkryne Valley Group Fri Jul 22, 2005 01:05 muireann at taraskryne dot org

The bulldozers have withdrawn from the site at Tara because the builders are on holidays for the next two weeks.
They are using the lowest standards of excavation at our most important site.
This is Tara's landscape.
The protest goes ahead. The site is the place. Come and see the damage for yourselves.
You cannot see that at NRA or MCC offices. It needs to be seen to be believed.

by Badman Fri Jul 22, 2005 02:09

I did not see your comments until after I wrote the above comments. It is now clear to me that Vincent was not speaking on behalf of anybody but himself and I retract any comments which implied that he was representing the opinion of the campaign.

by George Fri Jul 22, 2005 02:26

I think there is room for both trains of thought here. Vincent is very clearly not longer a part of STSV - he cannot therefore be held responsible for actions by third parties such as STSV.

I'd also suggest his thoughts on best places to hold protests were good - if just a few turn up then it will not help moral or press. Those few are best waiting until it is time.

I support anyone who is fighting to save Tara.

I still think that we should be fully supporting the STSV campaign, and maybe now that the Yahoo Group is gone this can be a rebirth of necessity.

I am organising an action over here in the UK to help keep up the international profile.

I suggest a new mail group is required ASAP - maybe something a little less public?

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain - Save the TaraSkryne Valley Group Fri Jul 22, 2005 03:03 muireann at taraskryne dot org

Thank you Badman, not that bad after all.
George also posted up. Thanks for your actions on behalf of Tara.
This is about Tara and not any individual - the protest is at Tara so that people can see what's happening.
Its Tara, Tara, Tara.
Again - please visit our website www.taraskyrne.org and join up there. New list in the making. Join up guys and gals.
Thank you to those of you who have offered tangible support. We appreciate it as you know from my mails to you. So grateful.

by 1234 Fri Jul 22, 2005 07:15

But as someone mentioned up the list info has to go out straight away?

Vincent has a point though - an unruly confrontational stance will cause havoc locally - and the point of another that leadership is required is equally sure to make sure that GOOD publicity is achieved rather than bad.

This has to be about ordinary people. Not about eco-warriors or anything like that. There is too much at stake.

Contact LMFM today.. I think that the protest is a token show of concern, and not a show of strength. For the moment there is hope in court action. However, contrary to what's posted above the National Monuments Act is not unconstitutional (Not yet anyway, and it isn't certain that it will be deemed so).

People are tired of this debate - lets try to get the publics support back by public responsible action.

by 1234 Fri Jul 22, 2005 07:18

1. location
2. date
3. time
4. reason
5. clear reasoning behind particular protest format
6. advance notice
7. publicity

People cannot wait around for Save Tara Skryne group to do this. People expected that this at the very least would be done.

It isn't rocket science and they've sorted nada.

Time for the disorganised as they might be to round up a possee.

best 'short effective text message and plan' competition anyone?

Councillor Joe'll be there by the looks of things anyways so that's a start if you need encouragement.

by ortem Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:57

Some talk on monday's protest at archeological site........... listen to annaliviafm 11am today.

by Cool Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:15

It is Dempseys constituency and another of his messes

by Claire Fri Jul 22, 2005 14:55

The indymedia campaign is a good start. It helped with the Rossport 5 campaign. Ar aghaidh linn.

by Ixy Fri Jul 22, 2005 15:31

Call a meeting, sort it out before you even consider protesting

by Friend Fri Jul 22, 2005 15:40

So, someone that has the wit to get off his rear and make Tara an international issue is a bad boy. hmmm....

What Tara press have you created? Do you ask "what do I have time to do?" or do you ask "what must be done?"

Vincent is of the latter persuasion. I've never seen a campaign succeed without those sorts of people, and in my experience most campaigns are lucky to have a single person like this.

And now you come along and give them a good kicking cos you can. Yet these things you say of Vincent, I've not seen much evidence of this online. I usually find it is those that get hurt and upset by commited people without time to waste pandering to the ego's of others that are the ones shouting about peoples egos.

If you want your name in lights write a few press releases - stage a protest. But then people like you will come along and say you are an egoist.

I take it when Vincent wrote all those press releases you would have preferred it if he put your name on them?

by Reasonable Fri Jul 22, 2005 16:27

If this doesn't stop the cause is lost. Maybe its good the list gone. Maybe the campaign needs an infusion of fresh blood and ideas. The list was full of druid stuff anyway - who wants an archive of that? Made the campaign look like it was comprised of nuts anyhow.

Learn the lesson and move on.

by Eadhmonn Ua Cuinn - Condros Studios Fri Jul 22, 2005 18:26 euacuinn at citynet dot net 161 Delaware Ave., Elkins,WV USA 304 6376115

First the the idea of the "Republic" encompassing the whole island, went by the wayside in Dublin, Than the Gaelic Language, was whittled down to a few "Gaeltachts" by the "TONY IRISH" now it's the "HERITAGE"- by the "powers-that-be", the "WEST BRITON GREEDY BASTARDS" have done what the English couldn't do.= only one solution- BOYCOTT IRELAND !!!!
NO MORE TOURISM-or give it back to the fairies.

by tired Fri Jul 22, 2005 19:54

It ain't getting any better, is it..?

by cynical Sat Jul 23, 2005 00:23

There's no activity at Tara-Skryne site forums so I'm just going to throw out Ideas here for whoever wants to digest/steal/hack or adopt them. The gestation of these ideas has little to do with me personally. I'm just going to add some of them up and suggest what I consider a sketch of a pro-active inclusive ongoing strategy. Most bits and pieces were picked up by me from conversations with activists concerned with the Tara issue, from reading the (now disappeared) mailing list archives at the Tara Skreen yahoogroup and from various articles and discussions including this one published at Indymedia ireland.

1. The Tara-Skryne Group have been asked specifically to bring their banner(s) to the Rossport 5 march tomorrow. Whoever has the banner should NOT miss the opportunity to link these issues. The Minister overseeing the Corrib fiasco is elected as a TD in Meath. This link needs to be hammered home. Carelessness with natural resources and carelessness with heritage. Both (one through NTR and PPP, and one through the unprecedented use of CPAs in aid of a Corporation) reveal a government more interested in massaging vested interests and business interests than in upholding the rights of the citizenry to the commons - be that commons heritage or natural resources.

2. The protest organised for Monday 25th (at quite short notice) needs a very definite focus.

Imho it should set out to do a number of things.

First it should gather together and invite to participate those who are interested in documenting and witnessing what is being done in the valley on an ongoing basis - be they activists, historians, archeologists, academics, politicians, celebreties, general public - whoever.

Second it should focus in a decentralised way on recording as much information as possible on the current situation in terms of excavations. (Notes/photos/video/gps coordinates if a phone or gps enabled camera is available). A teach -in element would be good for journalists and the newly involved.

It could be the start of a general approach to the way forward - non confrontational - but MAKING IT CLEAR FROM THE OUTSET THAT WHATEVER DICK ROCHE ALLOWS TO HAPPEN IN THE VALLEY AT TARA WILL BE HAPPENING IN FRONT OF THE WORLD BLOW BY BLOW.

A ongoing documentation centered approach which invited wide and decentralised participation would also have added benefits

- It would play to the strengths of a lot of supporters of the campaign (academics / archeologists / historians / activists)

- if the documentation was made available online on an ongoing basis - it would have the side-effect of providing a global focus and drama to the story that is unfolding.

- Those at a remove could feed their learning and understanding into this kind of thing with the right kind of web based platform. They could use the material generated to generate press coverage, raise awareness and campaign in their own physical/virtual communities and countries.

- Another side effect would be to provide a supply of free high quality material to the international press. It would also be a resource for international supporters of the campaign

- Those who don't want to align themselves with the STSV campaign and decide on other tactics or approaches could still still feed in to and materially support this approach.

- another side effect would be to focus global diaspora attention on the campaign. If the digs continue it will get more dramatic and the URL will spread.

- It will be entirely separate from actions in the courts but the information generated would obviously be easily available to the court activists. each will dramatise the other. All that has to be done is put two url's side by side in a story ;-)

3. Campaigns around tara from the beginning of the 'protest' phase should LEVERAGE MOBILE PHONE AND INTERNET TECHNOLOGY to allow people to get ongoing news on the campaign(s). How about downloadable screensavers, ringtones, messages designed to be passed on easily, a website where people can send their "I want to save tara' photos? None of this even resembles rocket science and all of it encourages participation. particularly youthful participation and involvement. Court News, Site News, Politics News, Frames (or whoever) MP3s etc.

4. The idea of a SYMBOLIC MAPPING of the area that should be protected as a heritage landscape is amazing. I saw it somewhere on the mailing list I think. How about aiming at next protest after he two upcoming of actually doing it with a walk (carrying GPS device) around the Tara Complex with experts on the area? Or if numbers permitted - passing a GPS phone hand to hand around the complex? Buy (steal?) some beautiful satellite shots and a modern human image of tara not far removed from the ancient sky facing tableau appears.

5. MONSTER MEETING/FESTIVAL on the hill as suggested by some Daniel O'Connell fan on the thread above as something to aim for in a timescale of months? En Masse disprove Bertie's statement about being able to see the road? Flares all along the proposed route at night as the crowd looks down? It sounds awfully ambitious I know but even D O'C I'm sure had to start somewhere to get his monster meetings together. They didn't have mobile phones or flares or GPS devices or the internet but they had the technology to allow an unamplified human voice reach 250,000 people in one place at one time. We could see if VS could manage it ;-)

Go Figure! Anyway that's my 2c for now.

by Meath Sinn Féin - Sinn Féin Sat Jul 23, 2005 00:28

See you there.

by cynic Sat Jul 23, 2005 00:35

we know yiz have them ;-)

by Supportive Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:06

Can everyone let Muireann know or post it here if they can make it to the protest on Monday night?

There will be camera there..

by cynical Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:10

with film ;-)

10 people and it's a success

by Banner Man Sat Jul 23, 2005 13:13

And bring whistles to liven it up..

by cynical Sat Jul 23, 2005 16:22

http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2005/05/digital_camera.html

by Constructive Sat Jul 23, 2005 16:22

Good to see some very constructive comments and ideas on this discussion at last! i.e. coming from "cynical".

I like the idea of the "Mapping". Linking to this idea we could use the idea that I think was put on the TaraSkreen list a few weeks ago by Dee i.e. about "owning" and physically marking out the original zone of protection, defined by Duchas that then disappeared.

1. We could use this to define the Tara Heritage/National Park, but we really need to get the locals involved in creating this and feeling ownership of and love for their heritage.
If that could be done in combination with GPS, and either flares or lanterns I think it could be a very powerful event.
I would suggest that this is something to plan for 1 month or 6 weeks from now.

btw Don't underestimate the level of opposition to the route in Meath. I believe the majority are against it (as I have met hundreds who are) but they feel blackmailed and cornered by the government and IBEC etc. for making this into a "with us or against us" debate.

2. We could use cynical's idea of "teach-ins". Run these in the local towns and communities to expose the reality of the intentions of this government and to make clear that the people have choices and that there is a much better transport option/ that can preserve heritage..
As an example see Brian Guckians NTC3 transport proposal:
Its in HTML here:
http://www.savetara.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=3
and the full PDF is here:
http://www.taraskryne.org/NTC/ntc3.pdf

There is also the study on the Orange Route by the Engineer in the litigation:
http://www.hilloftara.info/engineer.html

Both of these and particularly the NTC3 show the absolute negligence of Government Transport planning, and the greed (via PPPs) that motivates their plans. These studies need to be made widely available to the people of Meath.

So 2 ideas for further events. But all these ideas need people to put them into action, so do your bit.

thanks

by cynical Sat Jul 23, 2005 16:27

in deroading of Stonehenge?

by Getting even more worried Sat Jul 23, 2005 23:39

Part of the reason there is local apathy is because of foreign hyjacking of the site

by non furren Sat Jul 23, 2005 23:56

First I heard of it. Why wasn't it on the news? Better ring Joe R and see if he can see them from where he's standing. If tara has been invaded by furriners as you suggest why haven't the citeznry been mobilised to defend? Are RTE on the side of the furriners?

by nun bright blessings Sun Jul 24, 2005 00:54

The real problem with the Tara campaign is that STSV is a private unaccountable undemocratic 'club' with an environmentalist agenda, not a TARA agenda. How can you really join the group if you want? You can't. You can only 'JOIN' to be part of the now defunct list 'for information purposes'?

Tara is being used to block any M3, not just this one. The STSV representents its members, and the reason it has failed is because it seeks to reach out to environmentalists, druids and serial protestors, and not the ordinary person. When it doesn't get public attention, it seems the insinct is to reach out to more druids etc. And cries sabotage.

The ordinary person with an interest in plain simple boring heritage preservation is ignored because they don't fit the bill or the no M3 agenda. Muireann does great work but she is alone. But after Muireann the only idea the group has is to reach out to more and more of the same minority, and screw those that don't fit the club profile.

Until there is a real, public and open campaign those louts in FF and the NRA will have their way. Because, STSV, you need an overhaul and a dose of transparency. Take a reality check.

You may not feel like you need it but Tara does. Tara is screwed over because you don't know how to handle the situation.

If your interest is really Tara, where on the STSV site do you highlight the History of Tara? Where do you seek to inform Irish people of their history and it's relationship with Tara? Where do you seek to engage those ordinary folk that are appalled at what is happening?

This whole thing looks like it going to crash and burn but like a true ship of fools STSV won't look at options to salvage the campaign and bring it back to life.

God help Tara because help is not at hand. I hope Vincent's court case succeeds because there is NO PLAN 'B'.

by cynical Sun Jul 24, 2005 01:20

it costs about 100 euro to set up a website - why don't you get on with it ?- and if you don't have the $$s or couldn't be bothered then why not publish important information that real people should know on tara on indymedia ireland. It's just as easy as publishing your comment and it's open to all.

See you monday

by Amused Sun Jul 24, 2005 01:33

Yep, loads of druids there on the Tara site...!

No Brian Boru, no Daniel O'Connell, no Cúchulainn, No croppies, no high-kings, no battles, no wisdom of cormac, no british israelites, no monster meetings, no nothing but druidism and anti M3 proposals. No rerouting proposal, just anti M3 proposals , not withstanding the merits of the proposal

You quote how the survey says that majority of people favour keeping the road out of the valley. But you ignore that they want the M3 built elsewhere.

Now fair play to the druids for their interest, and that is a genuine comment - their contributuin has been positive and consistent, and genuine.

But try to engage the local populace for once. And instead of using Tara to oppose the road either accept that the campaign is to save tara even if that means moving the road, or if you can't accept a road under any circumstances just honestly campaign as being anti-road and leave saving the tara area to those that really have that as their aim.

by ortem Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:10 ortem at eircom dot net

Tara needs volunteers with hand held GPS. (Global positioning satellite) recorders.
contact e mail above

by Question Sun Jul 24, 2005 15:31

Is the GPS for recording of digging?

by cynical Sun Jul 24, 2005 15:37

could/would be handy in a number of ways. If at protests/events photos are taken of parts of any excavation gps will allow - when combined with maps - people physically removed to have a very detailed overview of what is happening. Can also be used to find places where excavations are planned and document them before work.

It can also be used as a lind of virtual pencil in sketching out walks on various boundaries - what area should be preserved etc.

A very very useful prop.

by Hmmm Sun Jul 24, 2005 21:54

I'd still prefer the publicity campaign to kickstart though..

by cynical Sun Jul 24, 2005 22:02

see Global Indymedia page

http://www.indymedia.org

by cynical Sun Jul 24, 2005 22:07

Get up tomorrow and ring every radio station you know of or listen to and tell them about the protest. Same with papers. All the details you need are there in the calendar. Passivity is a horrible thing. Text everyone you know too.

The publicity campaign about Tara is over really anyway - It got massive worldwide publicity and look at the diggers - now it's witnessing, protest and courts - if you're not in pro-actively those who want tara saved will NOT win.

by Tadhg Mon Jul 25, 2005 01:36

To "nun bright blessings" please stop taking personal shots and contribute positively OR volunteer.
Criticism is a good thing and some of what you say may be valid, but why not use your energy in a better and more positive way, that might actually help stop the destruction. If you are really concerned then you will do something:

Help Out -
volunteer to publicise the campaign, as Cynical has said ring news/radio and papers about the Protest at Blundelstown/Tara tomorrow Monday at 6:45pm, text your friends and anyone you know in Meath to come to the protest.
Help to organise future protests.
Ask others to help: in the areas of website updates/maintenance, fundraising, actions etc.

They are a tiny team and not everyone can sacrifice a job, a life and their sanity for a cause - i.e. they are not super-human - well actually some of them are.
Contact them if you want to do something:
http://www.tara-skryne.org/modules.php?name=Contact

by Question Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:18

That is true - but the Irish public needs to be engaged.

Why not write to the schools. Show that Brian Boru took the Irish High Kingship here with 5000 soldiers, both Dane adn Gaelic.

That Cúchulainn's arm and head are supposed to be buried at Tara.

That the Liberator held a meeting of 750,000 there.

That 500 croppies are buried on the hill and died there and on th valley.

That a cult dug up the hill looking for Indiana's Jones' holy Grail.

That the High Kings Resided there.

To the O'Neill's living in the north, that the Southern O'Neills resided there.

That the Vikings raided.

That some see it as a nexus to another world.

That Lia Fál is still there, the stone that would cry out of the true High King touched it.

That St Patrick made the Shamrock the national symbol of Ireland there.

That the symbol of the Harp, the only National symbol in the world that is an instrument was first used there.

That the Hollowween bonfire at Samhain was lit first from there, and that St Patrick defied the high king be lighting it at Slane.

And most importantly, that Tara was more than a hill. It was a whole area including the Valley an Skryne.

by cynical Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:48

with a list of weblinks/other resources

diy

by In motion Mon Jul 25, 2005 14:08

I'm already doing it.

Not to knock anyone else's efforts but that type of information is essential.

If you were trying to market a place like Tara you would concentrate on it's wealth of lore.

Tara's lore should be used to market the campaign. That and that there is an alternative. Kids love lore - start with them and work out to others that would be interested.

Anyone with web abilities that could develope a kiddies Tara site??

by Tadhg Mon Jul 25, 2005 19:57

Absolutely right about engaging people re. the importance of Tara.
For people to feel a connection to Tara and understand its importance they need to first be educated on this.
While there is some education going on in Meath, mostly adults or children are not taught much about Tara.

At a time when we are selling giving up our soul for our greed for Money, Tara could help people regain their soul.

"Question" has made a very good start in connecting all the influences of Tara and linking them to show how important Tara is. All we need is for these ideas to be fleshed out.
Have a go at it and then put up your own website if you like but make it available to the TaraSkryne.org website in the meantime.
Good stuff!

by cynical Tue Jul 26, 2005 15:28

Good to see a solid bunch of people (30-40 at height including people from Dublin, kildare, mayo meath, dundalk - that I know of) gathering and most expressing a desire to continue and develop visible effective protests at the site and future excavation sites.

The attendant publicity that I know of included:
- INN radio coverage
- LMFM Radio Coverage
- TV3 Coverage. Camera was there but I didn't see their news.
- Irish Trimes Photo
- Indymedia Global Front Page Highlighting of Issue

That's pretty good I think too. Fill us in if there was more.

It was good to see too that a number of freelancers made their way immediately at beginning of the protest through locked gate onto the site of archeological dig and that a number of them with cameras fully documented the work that has already been done there.

All that I spoke to (was wrecked and not at most sociable) were in agreement that the most effective thing that had happened to re-energise people was the photographic documentation of the work there, it's proximity to the Hill of Tara and it's haphazard careless nature by a resourceful Sinn Feiner in the last couple of weeks.

I noted as did others that none of the photographs making this proximity and carelessness clear had made it 'unedited' into the national press. Even the village magazine cropped one of the photos to remove the story of proximity it contained.

I had assumed from the press release for the protest that these particularities would be the focus of the protest. Instead it took on the form of a white line picket on the side of the road soliciting support from users of the present road and drawing attention to the general issue. If it had been in middle we'd all be dead due to speed and density of traffic and windy bends. 50/50 type support for the picket from traffic-(beeping wedding style). Some truckers giving the finger and some angry howls out windows

Imho for what it is worth there should have been a more focused character to the protest and this focus should have been planned carefully and achieved by the group that called the protest (STSVG).

There were no explanations for newcomers and others of why we were in that particular (noisy and dangerous) location offered to the crowd as a whole. No ways offered to crowd as a whole of staying in touch with the campaign. E-mail addresses etc were being harvested by individuals as far as I know and bits and pieces of plans were being made in small group conversations.

There was no organised opportunity for people within the group present to speak out to the group present, make relevant announcements, make introductions, think aloud, proslethyse, forge unity.

There were no organised tactical discussions to which all present were party.

Instead of an open form of organising future protests taking shape I noted that a committee was being proposed / formed to achive an intermittent continuing presence at roadside near excavations along the route. It was being formed in a series of private conversations which I personally as a 'blow-in' to this issue and activism around it found pretty shocking and counterproductive as this kind of thing has the unavoidable effect of creating an unaccountable except to themselves in-group.

It also has the effect of making newcomers feel peripheral and gives them the feeling that everyone else knows each other. Now maybe everybody did know everyone else but any campaign that makes this type of assumption and does not cater for new people who may be present at events WILL NOT GROW.

I personally did make a pretty shambolic attempt (very shattered as noted above) to encourage people in general to take some time having gathered to get in off the road somewhere where people could make themselves heard to the entire group and have some back and forth in an open way about future campaigning, why they were there etc but it was to no avail.

I ended up somewhat to my consternation first having my full name and main organisational affiliation announced to the crowd without being consulted about this, and second of all standing in a field on my own having a dialogue with same field.

I've outed myself to anyone who was present at this stage so please please take note that I'm trying to be devils advocate about these issues and that these criticisms are meant to be constructive ones. I feel I have the right to express them having done a significant amount of work publicising the protest (and running up a healthy phone bill) over last few days.

Will try to attend the non-aligned protest and see what that's like. If I don't make it I hope someone else will let us all know what happens with it.

Will also make sure that detailed photo-documentation of the excavation is available here in the very near future.

by interested Tue Jul 26, 2005 17:09

This is going ahead? I presumed it was forgotten about as it hasn't been mentioned.

Its still on the agenda?

by cynical Tue Jul 26, 2005 17:11

so I assume that means it's on

by Thurs protest Tue Jul 26, 2005 17:22

Is it adverted in the media?

by cynic Tue Jul 26, 2005 22:03

As far as I understand it 'resourceful Sinn Feiner' mentioned in little report above by me is a supporter and involved in various things with SF but not a member. Apologise for unwittingly getting this wrong.

by niallb - STSV Wed Jul 27, 2005 00:48 niallB at taraskryne dot org

The Non-aligned protest is a good idea.
It's posted on the taraskryne.org site too.

Fair comment cynical, and good attempt to try and get people talking yesterday. Your consternation was a big surprise to the
lady concerned, who is used to introducing speakers and did
so out of that habit. No harm intended.

The site conspired against it as much as anything.
There was indeed no organised opportunity for people
to speak out, but it would have been very hard to hear anyway.

Thursday's protest as it starts at Tara na Rí might have
a better chance of open discussion.

There were more thumbs than fingers from the passing traffic
including the truck drivers. Some of them might be anti-toll and
anxious to have a motorway built before they retire I guess.

NiallB

by cynical Wed Jul 27, 2005 00:55

but first thing I ever do if i'm involved in a meeting is ask anyone who may speak how to introduce. Otherwise if asking or saying someone will speak off the cuff - name.

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain - Save the TaraSkryne Valley Group Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:35 www.taraskryne.org

Radio interviews were done Raidio na Gaeltachta, NEAR FM and South Dublin Radio.
The Meath Chronicle also covered the protest.
The Irish Times published a photograph but no article .
Muireann

by ,., Thu Jul 28, 2005 14:59

The Ark at the seat of kings

A new book recalls how an obscure group dug up the Hill of Tara in search of the Ark of the Covenant, writes Eileen Battersby.

Christmas Day 1900 and across the Hill of Tara in Co Meath, a man and a woman may be seen walking, a sense of purpose influencing their actions. Flamboyant nationalist Maud Gonne in the company of Arthur Griffith, editor of the United Irishman and future co-founder of Sinn Féin, are inspecting recent damage done to the ancient monument site.

Random vandalism was not the issue. The culprits, members of the British-Israel Association of London, could instead claim a far more serious, if bizarre motivation, their quest concerning the legendary Ark of the Covenant.

Founded by Edward Wheeler Bird, a retired Anglo-Indian judge, the organisation became the unified mouthpiece of all sections of the British-Israel movement which believed that the Anglo-Saxon race was descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel, the wandering biblical Hebrews. It held many theories, most of which were wonderfully colourful, even logical in a mad sort of way.

Central to them all however, was an underlying conviction in the British right to rule the world. Implicit amid the theorising was extensive rhetoric proclaiming white supremacy and the usual racial megalomania embraced by any chosen people.

So how does royal Tara, the ancient seat of the High Kings of Ireland fit into this? The British-Israelites, driven essentially by intellectual beliefs, decided the Ark of the Covenant had been buried at Tara and must be retrieved .

It is a great story and well told by Mairéad Carew in Tara and the Ark of the Covenant, published by The Royal Irish Academy. An impressive cast list includes W.B. Yeats, Douglas Hyde, Gonne, Griffith and leading Irish archaeologists such as R.A.S. Macalister, George Coffey and Thomas J Westropp.

There is also the dastardly landlord, Gustavus Villiers Briscoe, who, having been bought by the organisation, sat by heartlessly drinking whiskey as the zealots began their crazy "excavations". There is also an outraged letter to the London Times, signed by a formidable trio: Hyde, Yeats and George Moore.

Nor should history overlook Maud Gonne's clever hijacking of Briscoe's elaborate bonfire planned to celebrate the coronation of Edward VII. Having organised an excursion to Tara for 300 children on the same day, July 13th 1902, Gonne looked at the bonfire and "felt it would serve a better purpose if burnt in honour of an independent Ireland". She lit it and sang A Nation Once Again. Briscoe and the local police were outraged.

Carew examines the story of Tara and the Ark in a lively narrative of meticulous detail and subtle humour. While the archaeological journals of the day gave the episode little space, the newspapers ran with it. According to Carew: "It was the first time that the Irish media had been involved in a campaign to protect a national monument."

But it was far more complicated than that because of the then changing attitudes towards Irish archaeology.

By the close of the 19th century, traditional gentleman Irish antiquarianism had yielded to an increasingly scientific approach. The cultural revival was in full flow. The clash between the British-Israelites and the cultural nationalists at Tara also represented colonialism versus emergent nationalism with their contrasting grasp of symbolism.

While the British-Israelites saw Tara as "a powerfully symbolic site, their 'resuscitated' Jerusalem, and spiritual capital of the British Empire", the cultural nationalists saw the place as a potential capital of an independent Ireland, and both sides drew on archaeology, history and mythology in making their cases.

Although the first approaches regarding possible explorations at Tara were made by the British Israelites in November 1875, all action was confined to a period spanning 1899 to 1902. Considering the amount of devastation subsequently inflicted on Ireland's archaeological heritage in the name of development throughout the 20th century, it is heartening to note the active opposition to excavating Tara.

Among the many interesting quotations used throughout is one attributed to William Bulfin (1864-1910) who travelled Ireland by bicycle and recorded his experiences. A close friend of Arthur Griffith, Bulfin was a shrewd commentator and observed the antics at Tara, not only of the Ark hunters, but also noted the government's evasive side-stepping. He was aware that fear of an exasperated public had been a factor in officialdom taking action but the true heroes were men such as Griffith, Hyde and Yeats and the professional archaeologists.

Of those responsible for the damage at Tara, Bulfin wrote: "Men have been sent to prison for less. But in Ireland there is no plank bed and hard tack for such offenders. They sleep upon the safest mattresses in the country and feed on the fat of the land." Considering he did not have the benefit of planning tribunal revelations to draw upon, his perceptions are impressive.

Elsewhere Macalister, himself a Freemason, writing of the episode years later in his book, Tara: A Pagan Sanctuary of Ancient Ireland (1931), dismissed the British-Israelite theory as "so utterly removed from normal sanity, that piety rather than ridicule should be accorded to those who have been infected with it". On the surface the incident offers yet another tussle between the Irish and the English. Yet there are stranger aspects involved. "The concept of Tara as the centre of a spiritual, religious or cultural conquest of the world is a recurring theme in British-Israelite literature. As Tara was regarded by them as an ancient royal site in the British Empire, the deposition of the Ark there would be evidence that Tara was indeed the spiritual birthplace of the Anglo-Saxon nation." This, the same Tara of which William Wilde wrote: "the memories of Tara have remained a silver thread in the garment of sackcloth he [the Irishman\] has worn for centuries". The same Tara described by Hyde, Yeats and Moore as "probably the most consecrated spot in Ireland".

And lest one decide that the entire folly was confined to the English, the British-Israel Association of Ireland was founded, on March 17th, 1897, in the Leinster Lecture Hall, Molesworth St, Dublin. Freemasonry provides another strand to the tale particularly as the Ark was the common symbol for the British-Israelites and Freemasons. If the core of British-Israelite beliefs were based on Protestantism, Freemasonry was, and remains, interdenominational.

Theories and campaigns, subplots and contexts, it is a tale of cultural agendas. Carew evokes the notions of romance and patriotism that dictated the Irish response to the visitors. History and myth as well as all shades of politics have their say as do the cross references such as the influence the 18th century antiquarian Charles Vallancey's shaky ideas exerted over the British-Israelites.

There are also the tensions felt by loyalist Protestants when faced with fellow Protestants embracing cultural nationalism. Carew quotes playwright and Abbey co-founder Edward Martyn, as seeing Freemasonry as a social advancement used by Protestants "whilst we Catholics are correspondingly handicapped by the lack of any organisation capable of doing for us what Freemasonry does for the Protestants". Daniel O'Connell was a Freemason; even so misconceptions, such as Martyn's, endured. It should be conceded, however, that Catholics could not become British-Israelites as it was rooted in Protestantism.

Whatever about the comedy, the arrival of the British-Israelites at Tara was multifaceted. Today the site remains much as it was then, a series of earthworks and mounds. Tara relies on its rich literature and associations.

It clearly captured the imagination of Maud Gonne who experienced so vivid a vision there, she fell to her knees, and reported in an article published less than a fortnight after the visit with Griffith: "I seemed to see shuddering, misty forms gazing curiously at us. A weird procession wound round the great raths where the palaces had stood. Some tossed white arms as they moved in rhythmic circles..." Her companion saw nothing.

While the British-Israelites dreamt of finding the Ark of the Covenant, patriotic Irish poets and writers battled to save a national monument. Many shades of opinion met and fought over the Hill of Tara, as symbol and as fact. However wacky it all seems in hindsight, it is a serious and important, though eccentric, interlude. It is all brought vividly to life here through Carew's intelligent, subtle and nuanced account.

Tara and the Ark of the Covenant by Mairéad Carew is published by the Royal Irish Academy, €30

IT Report

by Lugh Fri Jul 29, 2005 23:15

Look what happened today. It looks like there needs to be some action, other than legal, to stop the works for now at least. Any ideas?::

High Court decision on M3 motorway delayed
29/07/2005 - 15:12:53
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=151084000&p=y5yx847x6

A High Court case attempting to block the Government’s plans to build
the new M3 motorway close to the Hill of Tara was put back today pending a Supreme Court decision on another heritage site.

A judgement on the preservation of Carrickmines Castle, which delayed
the building of the M50 around Dublin, is expected in October.

The Supreme Court case is a challenge to a 2004 ruling by the High Court, which found the state had a constitutional duty to protect
national assets including historical monuments.

Today counsel for Vincent Salafia, who is bringing the Hill of Tara case against the Minister for Environment, Meath County Council and the Attorney General, argued that the Carrickmines case had a strong
bearing on the Hill of Tara litigation.

Gerard Hogan SC, requested a trial date for October after receiving a schedule of works for excavations planned over the summer in the Tara Skryne valley.

“It would seem the immediate urgency of the case is no longer quite as present,” he said.

The president, Judge Joseph Finnegan, asked for the parties to return to set a trial date once the Carrickmines judgement had been delivered.

Following the case, Mr Salafia said he believed the works being done over the summer would not cause significant damage to the ancient historical site in the Hill of Tara complex.

“Obviously we’re unhappy that the works are proceeding but we feel that it’s better all of the issues are addressed in a full trial rather than a premature hearing which can affect the outcome,” he said.

“Full excavation of the critical national monuments will not be taking place in the immediate future,” he added.

by Paul Sat Jul 30, 2005 08:56

Where do the Tara group meet?

by Badman Sat Jul 30, 2005 20:11

Badman (the seer) 21st July
"....my crystal ball tells me that the impending court case is certain to fail to stop the diggers. It will fail in such a way that another legal option will be presented to you....."

Irish Times - July 30th
Salafia Court case put back until October.

Is badman really a seer?
Is he a legal expert?
Is he privy to insider information in the courts?
Or does he just recognise the fact that the courts are the servants of the ruling class and faithfully deliver the judgements that the powerful wish for?

Anyway, where does this leave Vincent's softly-softly approach?

by pro activist Sat Jul 30, 2005 20:23

'Anyway, where does this leave Vincent's softly-softly approach?'

Not just Vincent's - but his approach is still worthwhile - nothing should be seen as either/or but both/and - IMO.

Meanwhile people will either have to wait for the courts or be pro-active.

by Badman Sat Jul 30, 2005 21:11

In fact I've always said _both_ are needed. The courts provide the face-saving mechanism for the state to allow them to pretend that they didn't cave in to the dreaded mob when they do cave in to the dreaded mob (and one should always provide one's opponent the space in which to surrender).

"Meanwhile people will either have to wait for the courts or be pro-active."

Another nugget from the crystal ball. If people are not pro-active the motorway will be built before the court process is finished.

by pro activist Sat Jul 30, 2005 21:16

'the motorway will be built before the court process is finished.'

and wouldn't the powers that be like it that way?

so, (thinking like the Rossport 5 supporters) what are the targets of protest?

by Trying to get a handle Sat Jul 30, 2005 21:21

..that are prepared to bring fresh thinking and tactics to the Tara problem?

by Pro action 2 Sat Jul 30, 2005 21:27

Inform the public:

A. There is an alternative Route
B. It is 2.5km Shorter
C. It is E40m cheaper
D. It is 5km from Tara
E. It will not nessessitate legal delays

by cynical Sat Jul 30, 2005 21:29

should be nationwide FF vote

by Pro Activist Sat Jul 30, 2005 21:30

follow the money

http://www.acsltd.ie/

by pro action 2 Sat Jul 30, 2005 21:34

Anyone know if Archeolgical Consultancy Services has ever been involved in controversy, ever been too friendly with the powers that be in FF or the NRA? Or any past Ministers for the environments?

by Pro Activist Sat Jul 30, 2005 21:38

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=%22Archaeological+Consultancy+Services%22+woodstown

by Woodstown Sat Jul 30, 2005 22:07

Martin Cullen whilst having his ass kissed on RTÉ radio last week, said that the finds in Waterford happened early so it was possible to reroute the road.

Tara wasn't just a hill. Tara was the whole valley and everyone has heard of it so why is it going through the valley??

FYI, Catherine Swift of Save Viking Waterford was also very pleasant to Minister Cullen - she didn't bother pointing out that we all knew about Tara, when he made that amazing comment about Tara finds not being significant. Amazing when your back yard is sorted out and you want cash for your own project that you will let destruction pass elsewhere?

Anyway, Archeological Consultancy services recommended preservation in Situ for Woodstown, but are prepared to preserve by record in Tara.

What is wrong with us?? What is wrong with ACS??

by cynical Sat Jul 30, 2005 22:18

FF and dempsey have a lot of traditional support in the new constituency that includes the tara valley.

I have personal experience of ff representatives sneering in my face about tara bcause they reckon it will not affect them locally in the new 3 seater. They think 'it won't play against us in meath'. Their parochialism and absolute fixation on the local is probably their achilles heel.

They think smugly that no-one will leverage it as a symbolic issue on a national basis or on anything other than a local basis. Only the threat of and the realisation that any party that gets in the way of the diggers will benefit massively everywhere except perhaps that three seater wlll make them back down.

That together with the new town unregistered but registerable commuters who will be ripped off in a very big way by tolls and the extra public expense of archeological process and entirely justified court action and extra distance to be travelled and delay is the administrations weak point.

If a focused campaign emerged it could possibly make it clear to FF that in the next election dempsey and his ff co-runner could have votes shorn off and have a new town newly registered electorate turn against them lose one seat to whatever party (realistically sinn fein) in best position to benefit.

Fine Gael could be convinced with existing poll data and a clear argument (I think) to wield Tara as a symbolic issue nationally together with SF (strange bedfellows I know) and to educate their local supporters among the farmers and landowners to realise that while some may profit in the short term from selling land for motorway - in the long term with the severing of european farmers from subsidies and an encouragement of and subsidation of eco/educational and heritage/tourism friendly farming that in the long term keeping the landscape intact is a better long term economic bet.

It is a no brainer for labour and greens to support it and leverage it n a national basis.

The lynchpin of it all is Dempsey. Add up his sins. Rossport. Land at Ringsend Bottling Plant. Stitch up at tara to benefit some developers. He may have the support to ride all of this out locally but nationally he is the perfect stick to beat Bertie with. Giving state assets to FF cronys. Giving away national natural resources for nada. Willfully colluding in destruction of the tara Valley. Ripping off commuters from A NUMBER OF CONSTITUENCIES with double tolls and extra distance on planned m3 as compared to alternate route outside the valley for the benefit of NTR. And on it goes. He is the local TD after all.

Turn it (however distastefully y'all might or might not view electoral politics) into an election issue. A national one. You never know - if Enda touched that yoke at the top of the hill it might sing out. ;-)

by cynical Sat Jul 30, 2005 22:47

was the hound of cullen's arm berried in the valley or on the peaks? Is it recorded anywhere? Was it berried in a box? Clad in metal? Are the Archos lookin for it? Wud they even know what to be looking out for? We should know what they know. Are the directions and advice given to them available or at least available under foi legislation?


"The Hill of Tara was the most important center of political and religious power in pre-Christian Ireland. It was seat of the High Kings of Celtic Ireland.

Local guide Jean Thornton is giving us a sample of Tara's pre-historic, medieval, and modern history.

Rick: "So for 5,000 years people have come here?"
Jean: People have come to Tara and indeed they still come today. We know the Stone Age people were here, we know the Bronze Age people were here, we know the Iron Age people were here. This area was a very sacred place where ceremony and ritual took place. Now you'll know St. Patrick is our patron saint and the shamrock is a symbol of Ireland. We are told it all began here, on this Hill of Tara. Now in 432 A.D., Ireland was a pagan country. Now he came here to this Hill of Tara to ask the pagan King's permission to spread Christianity.
Now, this is what St. Patrick used to explain Christianity to the high king. He used this as a symbol. There are three leaves and one stem on this little shamrock — the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit — and that is how he explained the Trinity, the concept of Christianity, to this pagan king.

The symbolic importance of Tara continued into Ireland's modern history. In 1843 Daniel O'Connell, the great champion of Irish Liberty, gathered several hundred thousand people here. They peacefully demanded Irish home rule."

by Cú Chulainn Sat Jul 30, 2005 22:52

I'll give you a clue where you'll find bits of me.

My head, my right arm and a piece of my shield ARE buried in Tara.

Years ago people based themselves close to streams and rivers.

The Gawra river runs through Tara, in the Tara Gawra valley.

You could start there.

Wonder do ACS know about me?

by cynical Sat Jul 30, 2005 22:55

There's two or three ;-)

More O'Connell. According to this there's a themepark option available ;-)

The Hill of Tara, located 48 km northwest of Dublin, is one of Ireland's most important cultural icons. Dating back more than 5000 years to the neolithic age, Tara is known in both myth and history as the traditional seat of the High Kings of Ireland.

In Irish mythology, Tara was first the capital of the Firbolg, the mythical People of the Bag who settled in Ireland after fleeing from Greece, where they were enslaved and forced to carry earth in bags. The Firbolg made ships out of the bags and sailed to Spain, then to Ireland, which they ruled until the coming of the Tuatha de Danaan (Gaelic for People of the Goddess Danu). Later, Tara was the capital of the Milesians, also known as the Gaels, who are rumoured to have arrived in Ireland 1500 years before Christ was born.

Archeological evidence suggests that certain portions of Tara are at least 5,000 years or older, indicated neolithic and bronze age activity. Its principal monuments are a neolithic passage tomb, a cursus or linear earthwork, a hillfort, a pillar stone known as Lia Fail which is believed to be the inauguration stone for the Kings of Tara , and other enclosures of unknown origin.

The hill of Tara is actually a low-lying ridge located half way between Navan and Dunshaughlin in Co. Meath, but it commands a stunning view of 40% of Ireland. Unfortunately, all that remains of the original site is the Dumha na nGiall (Mound of the Hostages) and a stone of destiny where druids still celebrate midsummer. But Tara has a fascinating mythical history which paints a glorious picture of its past. The following excerpt is from The Story of the Irish Race:

"The greatest structure there was the Mi-Cuarta, the great banqueting hall, which was the Ard-Righ's own dun. There was also the House of a Thousand Soldiers, the ancient poets tell us. Each of the provincial Kings had, on Tara, a house that was set aside for him when he came up to attend the great Parliament. There was a Grianan (sun-house) for the provincial queens, and their attendants. Another was the Star of the Bards--a meeting-house for the poets and the historians, the doctors and judges. This hall, the Mi-Cuarta, wherein at the great triennial Feis, all the kings, and chiefs and nobles, the Ollams or doctors, the Brehons or judges, the Files or poets, and the Seanachies or historians, were seated according to rank."

The Feis or fair, was held at Samain (Hallowday) and lasted for three days before and after that day and thus covered the space of a week. It was proceeded by the Aonach or great fair, which was a general assembly of the people. From this and from the following we get an idea of the event's importance. Again, from The Story of the Irish Race:

"At this Feis the ancient laws were recited and confirmed, new laws were enacted, disputes were settled, grievances adjusted, wrongs righted. And in accordance with the usual form at all such assemblies, the ancient history of the land was recited, probably by the High-King's seanachie, who had the many other critical seanachie attending to his every word, and who, accordingly, dare not seriously distort or prevaricate. This constant and continual repetition, down through the ages, of the ever lengthening history--repeated too, almost always in the presence of many critics--fixed the facts of the past story, and familiarized them to all the people."

Of all stories associated with Tara, one of the most renowned is the dramatic account of St. Patrick lighting the Paschal fire on the Hill of Slane, which led to Patrick's confrontation with King Loegaire and the druids of Tara. This story is contained in the 7th century biography of St. Patrick written by Muirchu moccu Machtheni.

As we see, Tara was very important indeed to the Irish people as a seat of law and of history. Its importance was such that it was considered the heart of the kingdom. Five great roads radiated out from Tara in ancient times to all parts of the country. The commanding site also gave the people a visual spot on the horizon to look to for guidance and assurance.

Tara was also considered a gateway to the Otherworld and passage tombs dot the surrounding countryside. Many of these are considered the burial places of the Kings, and give the nickname, "Valley of the Kings", to the site. In another ceremony that took place every Oíche Shamhna, the King and his warriors would gather to protect this world against attacks coming from the Otherworld. The Sidhe (passage tombs or mounds) are also considered by legend to be the home of the Tuatha de Danann or the Fairy Folk.

Tara remained the capital of Ireland until the sixth century when King Diarmuid broke sanctuary of a local church to attain a prisoner who was then executed. In response, the Abbot of the Church, St. Ruadan of Lorrha, cursed Tara, making the spot "unholy" forever. When the King died c. 565, the seat of the country was moved. It is at about this time that the Stone of Scone was supposedly moved to Dalriada or Scotia Minor. There it became the Palladium of the Scots under Fergus Mor Mac Erc and his descendants.

Important events have continued to take place at Tara over the centuries. In 1798, the rebels of Meath County were defeated at Tara. Later in 1843, Daniel O'Connell held a great meeting attended by nearly one million persons where he called for independence from Britain. Although Tara is no longer a political capital, it remains a spiritual and mythical one for Ireland to this day.

by BW, February 2000

by cynical Sat Jul 30, 2005 22:58

was the hound of cullen's arm berried in the valley or on the peaks? Is it recorded anywhere? Was it berried in a box? Clad in metal? Are the Archos lookin for it? Wud they even know what to be looking out for? We should know what they know. Are the directions and advice given to them available or at least available under foi legislation?


"The Hill of Tara was the most important center of political and religious power in pre-Christian Ireland. It was seat of the High Kings of Celtic Ireland.

Local guide Jean Thornton is giving us a sample of Tara's pre-historic, medieval, and modern history.

Rick: "So for 5,000 years people have come here?"
Jean: People have come to Tara and indeed they still come today. We know the Stone Age people were here, we know the Bronze Age people were here, we know the Iron Age people were here. This area was a very sacred place where ceremony and ritual took place. Now you'll know St. Patrick is our patron saint and the shamrock is a symbol of Ireland. We are told it all began here, on this Hill of Tara. Now in 432 A.D., Ireland was a pagan country. Now he came here to this Hill of Tara to ask the pagan King's permission to spread Christianity.
Now, this is what St. Patrick used to explain Christianity to the high king. He used this as a symbol. There are three leaves and one stem on this little shamrock — the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit — and that is how he explained the Trinity, the concept of Christianity, to this pagan king.

The symbolic importance of Tara continued into Ireland's modern history. In 1843 Daniel O'Connell, the great champion of Irish Liberty, gathered several hundred thousand people here. They peacefully demanded Irish home rule."

by Hmmm. Look at this.. Sat Jul 30, 2005 23:05

Tommy 'Pots and Pans' Reilly Reverses Stance on Tara


In 2005, Tommy Reilly, Chairman of Meath County Council, is known as a vocal supporter of the proposed M3 motorway through the Tara/Skryne valley and has gone on the record as saying that this invaluable heritage site amounts to little more than a few, "pots and pans".

However, things were not always thus. In 2001, the Meath Chronicle reported that Colr. Reilly was angry at the failure of Duchas to lend support to the development of the Hill of Tara as a site of historical significance. He also asked that Meath County Council meet with local enviromental groups such as the Hill of Tara Action Group in order to develop a programme to highlight the importance of this historic site and make it more ammenable to visitors who wished to view its splendour.

What made Tommy change his mind, we wonder ?

http://newsweaver.ie/apolloartg/index000070030.cfm?x=b11,0,w

by The answer?? Sat Jul 30, 2005 23:08

Fianna Fail and Dunlop-linked land deal 5km from Hill of Tara under scrutiny
by draoi Wednesday, Jan 19 2005, 12:57pm
national / environment / news report



The real life and land of Reilly emerges
A land deal concerning a site near the Hill of Tara made between self-admitted county council briber Frank Dunlop and Fianna Fail’s Meath by-election candidate Tommy “pats and pans” Reilly is under investigation.

Senior FF members are believed to be looking into the deal following local media inquires about the site in Edoxtown, east of Tara and Skyrne. Pending the outcome of inquiry, Reilly is likely to be the party’s choice for the vital Meath by-election. Either way, the Dunlop link will not look good for the party of government that is already linked that would destroy a sacred landscape forever.

Although initial Indymedia enquiries could not ascertain the ins an outs of the geographic and monetary aspects of different routes for the M3 and the 10-acre site, this could be found out.

The eastern side of the Tara complex territorial line “is defined by the promontory forts of Rath Lugh and ***Edoxtown***, near Skryne and Rathfeigh respectively, according to *“The Impact of the Proposed M3 Motorway on Tara and its Cultural Landscape”.

"The proposed motorway ignores and transgresses this line and will, therefore, destroy the spatial and visual integrity of the archaeological and historical landscape of Tara, as well as removing from it key component monuments," continues the paper, authored by Irish experts.

“Pots and pans” Reilly is believed to have bought out Frank Dunlop in 2002 for the same price as he bought in to the land. There has been no attempt to rezone or develop most of the land, according to d’paper of record.

“It is not near where you would expect any development to take place,” former lobbyist Frank Dunlop told a D’Olier Street broadsheet Tuesday. Ahem. Except if it’s near the M3. Or perhaps the alternative route favoured by many around the Hill of Skryne could mean less money for Reilly if a compulsory purchase order was made.

Reilly’s daughter is believed to have built a house on a one-acre section of the site following two planning appeals.

Tommy’s “pats and pans” moniker came from comments made by the sitting Meath councillor about what is possibly under land in the Tara landscape that the proposed tolled route will take. No mention by him of the physical remains of our ancestors that have been already dug up in test trences by the National Roads Authority the name of archeology.

Apart from sitting on land and on the county council, Reilly also sits on the Meath Tourism board, which says it “has been the instrument of major change for the improvement of tourism in County Meath.”

Tribunals of inquiry in Dublin Castle so far have focussed on land in Co. Dublin, but the Dunlop link to this site should really trigger invesitigations in gContae na Mi.


* Authored by Edel Bhreathnach, Conor Newman and Joseph Fenwick. The paper is at: www.archaeological.org/pdfs/archaeologywatch/Tara/Tara_statement.pdf

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=68295&time_posted_upper_limit=1106197200&time_posted_lower_limit=1106110800

by 1798, unlucky enough to be buried in Tara? Sat Jul 30, 2005 23:13

THE body of a United Irishman who died of his wounds after the Battle of Tara in early 1798, is to be transported on a gun carriage through Navan and Dunshaughlin to Dublin next month where they will lie in state in the Mansion House.

The remains will then be brought to the famous battle site of Oulart Hill, outside Enniscorthy, Co. Wexford, where they will be formally re-interred in Tulach an tSolais (The Hill of Light) monument as ‘The Unknown Pikeman’.

The choice of the unknown insurgent, whose body was found at Hanlonstown, Navan, in 1938, has drawn considerable opposition from Wexford who felt one of their own should have been chosen. The event ties in with the bicentenary commemoration of the hanging of Dublin patriot, Robert Emmet.

Critics in the south-east claimed that their county deserved the honour of providing the Unknown Pikeman. This was strongly

contested by those who pointed out that the United Irish uprising spread throughout the country, with several important battles and skirmishes in Meath.

The crux was resolved last week as the extensive authentication of the body (found on the Lightholder farm 65 years ago, and re-buried with full Church rites) was accepted. The young man was found with part of a British Army bayonet still lodged among his bones.

The forces at Tara were principally Meath insurgents, augmented by many from north Dublin. However, the actual identity of the body may never be determined. Following the Tara debacle in April, United Irishmen from Wexford and Wicklow came north after the Vinegar Hill defeat. They joined up with compatriots from Kildare and Meath and fought a series of battles from Clonard until the final skirmish at Knightstown, near Castletown-Kilpatrick, in which they were routed by British forces and local yeomen.

The remains of the Unknown Pikeman are being removed at a time when the Hanlonstown area comes under pressure from development, both commercial and motorway-related. They will be moved from Navan, travelling by gun carriage through the town on the morning of Friday 3rd October, and on through Dunshaughlin before arriving at the Mansion House in Dublin to lie in state that evening.

The remains will be brought from the city through Newtownmountkennedy, Arklow, Gorey, Clogh, Tubberneering, The Harrow, Enniscorthy and finally to the ‘98 Chapel in Enniscorthy on the following evening. The final journey will bring the remains to the Tulach an tSolais site, following Mass in Irish, on the afternoon of Sunday 5th October.

Comóradh na Midhe member, Mr. Paddy Pryle, expressed relief this week that the dispute over the most suitable Unknown Pikeman had been concluded. There was no definite way of knowing where the man was from, which strengthened the case for his selection, said Mr. Pryle.

by Establishing facts here Sat Jul 30, 2005 23:16

Isn't that poor croppy lucky he wasn't in the ground in Tara?

Look how they are treating the valley..

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70749&condense_comments=false#comment116890

by Alternative Routes Sat Jul 30, 2005 23:21

So what about what pro action 2 said above?

'A. There is an alternative Route
B. It is 2.5km Shorter
C. It is E40m cheaper
D. It is 5km from Tara
E. It will not nessessitate legal delays'

Someone is lying?

All the routes are listed at the below link..

'An alternative route 2.5km shorter was available to the west of Tara. It was E40m less expensive than the current route. It was known as the Orange Route.


Look at the huge bevy in the current route between Dunshaughlin and Navan:
http://www.meath.ie/roads/M3_EIS/maps25_02_03/fig3_2.html

Now look at the the more direct AND cheaper Orange Route:

http://www.meath.ie/roads/M3_EIS/maps25_02_03/fig4_2.html

Whoever picked this route didn't have as an objective value for money, directness or speed of construction. Another example of wasted taxpayers cash.'

by cynical Sat Jul 30, 2005 23:25

Wilipedia is a great place for interested people to collate very accurate information. Lots of people will argue if they think it's important.

- they have tara and home rule and the nra (and no i don't mean charlton veston's gang)

If The Hill of Tara is just the hill of Tara then what exactly is Tara? Where is 'Tara' - is it on any old maps for instance?

- they have tara and home rule and the nra (and no i don't mean charlton veston's gang)

An tÚdarás um Bóithre Náisiúnta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Roads_Authority

Home Rule
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Rule

Battle Of Tara Hill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tara_Hill

etc

History buffs can edit the pages and involve themselves on the lists there at Wikipedia.

by None so blind Sat Jul 30, 2005 23:43

Here is the proof you can, followed by the Report that Bertie said you can't..

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70943&search_text=tara

Tearing up the past - Irish Times Article

The significance of Tara transcends the need to run the M3 past the ancient seat of Ireland's kings, writes Frank McDonald, Environment Editor.

When Dr Edel Bhreathnach stands on the Hill of Tara, what she sees is very different to what the Taoiseach said he saw.

Dismissing claims by many archaeologists and historians that the M3 tolled motorway would destroy a mystical landscape, Bertie Ahern said he couldn't even see the hill from where he was standing on its route.

Just as he blamed an exotic snail for holding up the Kildare by-pass, when what was really at stake was its potential to drain Pollardstown Fen, he seized on the fact that the M3 won't actually run through the ancient seat of Ireland's kings as sufficient to permit the National Roads Authority (NRA) to proceed with its controversial €680 million scheme.

Sure even the growing "posse" of archaeologists couldn't agree on it. Yet this absence of agreement is hardly surprising given that most members of the "posse" carry out work for the NRA. And there would be a lot to do on the route of the M3; so far, 42 archaeological sites have been identified in the softly rolling valley between Tara and the Hill of Skryne.

Joe Fenwick, of the Department of Archaeology at NUI Galway, says it "amounts to an archaeological site occurring on average every 370 metres" on the 15-km stretch between Dunshaughlin and Dowdstown, 5km south of Navan. And that's just a running total, as it's likely more will be discovered. The preliminary cost of excavating them all would be at least €30 million.

Along the entire 61-km route between Clonee and Kells, some 141 archaeological sites of varying importance have been identified, some of them by test-trenching carried out on behalf of the NRA in recent months. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Dick Roche, is due to decide next month how the sites are to be "archaeologically resolved" following debates in the Dáil and the Seanad this week.

Four years ago, long before An Bord Pleanála rubber-stamped the M3 in August 2003 without laying down a single archaeological condition, the NRA was told it would be "virtually impossible to underestimate the importance or the sensitivity of the archaeological and historical landscape of this area". Whatever route was chosen, it would run into this.

In other words, the NRA had some idea what it was letting itself in for when different route options were being considered and a decision was made to run the M3 through the Tara-Skryne valley. It was also clear that some major monuments, notably Rath Lugh, would be left stranded at the edge of a four-lane motorway that would inevitably be visible from Tara.

THAT'S WHY SOME of the leading names in Irish archaeology are vehemently opposed to the current plan. They include such eminent figures as Prof George Eogan, who spent 30 years excavating the passage tomb complex at Knowth, in the Boyne Valley. Like so many others, he argues that this is an integrated landscape and would like to see the sites near Tara excavated at a leisurely pace.

What the NRA is proposing, as Sen Maurice Hayes (Ind) has said, is to excavate these sites quickly "before obliteration". Even apart from the time pressure, he argued that the whole area needs to be recognised as "a single archaeological environment which will be sundered and damaged irreparably" by any motorway driven between Tara and Skryne.

Last March, former taoiseach John Bruton said it was evident from archaeological studies that Tara was "the centre of a sacred space of interlinked monuments stretching over a comparatively large area". Short of running over the hill itself, it was "difficult to conceive of a route more likely to run into delays generated by archaeological excavations than this one". Dr Bhreathnach, who is based in UCD and is the editor of a major academic work on Tara to be published in the spring, says the book will show definitively that Tara was the centrepiece of a sacred landscape, the focus of "incredibly complex ceremonies in prehistoric times", with routeways leading to the hill from every direction. "The imprint of this is all over the landscape," she maintains.

According to the quiet-spoken academic, who once served as an Irish diplomat in Brussels, the title "King of Tara" was the most prized in ancient Ireland because it made whoever held it the "top dog". It was seen as a "kingship of the world", so the place where the King of Tara was inaugurated, atop this windswept hill in Co Meath, was "the centre of the world".

That would help to explain why a messianic group of British Israelites descended on Tara in 1902 and "tore into" its earthen banks in a vain search for the Ark of the Covenant. It would also account for the strong opposition to the M3 voiced by so many archaeologists and historians from overseas as well as celebrities such as actor Stuart Townsend.

According to Dr Bhreathnach, the whole area extending northwards from Dunshaughlin became a centre of considerable activity in the Bronze Age, focused on a necropolis at Tara with burials placed facing towards the hill. It was the mystical properties of Tara and its mythological status that led people, even in prehistory, to hold it in such awe.

EARLY HISTORICAL RECORDS, from the 6th century, show that Tara was the much-prized centre of the Kingdom of Brega, which extended northwards to Oldcastle and southwards to the River Liffey. And though associated with St Patrick and Romano-British culture, she says its significance was deliberately played down by Christian writers because of its pagan past.

Dr Bhreathnach points to a pair of parallel ridges rising up the hill, saying they indicate the processional route to the mound on its brow, which came to be called the Mound of Hostages. It was here that contracts were signed between the High King of Ireland and lesser kings, often including the exchange of hostages to cement the bonds of fealty.

From this vantage point, she points to the impressive range of buildings at Dalgan Park, headquarters of the Columban missionaries, just outside Navan.

They also strongly oppose the M3 route not least because it will sever their heavily wooded lands - used as a valued amenity area by the townspeople as well as one of the largest dairy herds in Ireland.

Though its route lies east of the N3, the new highway would cut a much wider gash through higher ground on the lower slopes of the Hill of Skryne, making the cars and trucks on it more visible than traffic on the existing road. Worse still, the plan includes a floodlit interchange at Blundelstown, just 1km northeast of Tara, which would be clearly visible, especially at night.

As if to compound its impact, rumours are rife in Co Meath that developers have been acquiring options from farmers with land around the proposed interchange, with an eye on its potential for retail warehousing and other motorway-related development. All of that, too, would be seen from Tara - speaking volumes about the value we assign to a priceless heritage.

The Kingship and Landscape of Tara, edited by Dr Edel Bhreathnach, will be be published by Four Courts Press next spring

by John Bruton Sat Jul 30, 2005 23:58

So John Bruton said this, and yet Fine Gael have gone against their former leader and Taoiseach to go for the Tara route...?

Despite the fact it is E40m more expensive than the alternative?

by Dáil in 1934 Sun Jul 31, 2005 00:20

The next matter to which I wish to refer is the condition of Tara. Some time ago I asked the Board of Works to put up some signposts there because visitors coming to see the place found themselves lost. I suggested to the Board of Works to put up some signposts, and pointed out to them that there was nothing there to show that the place was Tara at all, nothing beyond the fingerpost pointing to Tara. When you got up to the hill of Tara there was nothing to indicate the place, or to indicate the site of Tara itself. Were it not for the fact that the visitors themselves had some idea of the place there was no one there to give them an account, or to tell them anything at all about Tara. There is nobody in charge. The place is simply vested in the Board of Works and they have some kind of control of it. A private gentleman owns the land.

2217

I think the time has come when the National Government might reasonably consider taking some steps in this matter. It would be only right that [2217] Tara should be acquired for the nation and kept and maintained for the nation. Some authentic books should be written and made available in connection with the place. Very few, except those well-versed in the history of Tara, know how far the site extends. I know that it extends very much further than the ordinary visitor believes. It extends a good deal outside what is thought to be Tara. Many people from other countries complained to me that when they got there they were completely lost, that they could get no information. There are amateur guides there who could tell them some history about the place, a great deal of which may be true and some not true. The time has approached when we might reasonably consider the steps to be taken which would ensure the purchase of places like Tara for the nation.

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0051/D.0051.193404250016.html

by Tara Republic Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:15

It often surprises me that Arthur Griffith could see Tara as the capital of Gaelic and Nationalist Ireland.

In fact he considered that Tara would be the perfect site of an Irish capital again once the English were removed from Ireland.

For those of you that subscribe to the ' 800 years of England in Ireland ' realise that it was the demise of Tara that saw the introduction of 'the stranger' to Ireland.

That is a direct link between an old hill with 'pots and pans' and what happened last Thursday.

If you want to know what happened before the 800 years, start in TARA.

WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by cynical Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:52

THE Taoiseach again declares his party to be “the republican party” in the wake of the historic announcement by the IRA. What would his republican ancestors think of the Government’s decision to put a motorway through Tara?

When the British Israelites attempted to dig the hill 100 years ago, Arthur Griffith wrote a series of articles in the United Irishman defending Tara from the attack of the “foreigners” and reminded his readers that Tara was “a living reminder of the former glory of an enslaved and half-debased nation”.
Today, it is our own half-debased nation cannibalising its former glory.

Another defender of Tara, WB Yeats prophetically wrote in a poem:

“I have forgot awhile / Tara uprooted, and new commonness / Upon the throne and crying about the streets / And hanging its paper flowers from post to post, / Because it is alone of all things happy.”

What would the men of ’98 have to say? Those who fought and died in the Battle of Tara? Daniel O’Connell? He chose our ancient capital as the venue for a monster meeting. They must be turning in their graves.

Muireann Ní Bhrolcháin
Save the TaraSkryne Valley Group
58 Laurence Avenue
Maynooth
Co Kildare

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:23

TARA DAY August 15th 2005

The people of Ireland are invited to visit the Hill of Tara on August 15th. Tara Day, to express their opposition to the proposed twice-tolled Motorway through the Gabhra (TaraSkryne) Valley. Information will be available on the 38 sites along the proposed route, including those presently being excavated and others that may be investigated in the future. Maps will be available and everyone is invited to visit these sites that lie so close to the bottom of the Hill. People are asked to gather from 3 p.m. onwards and at 7 p.m. we invite any politicians who wish to join us for information and photographs.

The 15th of August has been chosen for this event because on August 15th 1843 Daniel O’Connell held a monster meeting at Tara attended by an estimated 750,000 people. These people held a belief that the strength of their unity could make a difference to their freedom. That same flicker of belief burns deep within us all.

Daniel O’Connell was not alone in choosing Tara as a rallying or battle point. Many others saw Tara as the location from which to launch a campaign. It was used by Brian Boru, by the O’Neill’s in the sixteenth century and was the focal point of the 1641 rebellion. There was also a skirmish there during the 1798 rebellion.

One of the major battles between the Norse and the high-king of Ireland was the Battle of Tara fought between Mael Sechlainn and Olaf Cuaran for the prize of the kingdom of Brega (the land surrounding Tara) and for Tara itself.

The public are asked to bring their county flags and the tri-colour with them to express their support of those who oppose the routing of the proposed road through the Valley. People are also invited to bring flags or banners representing various issues they might be trying to highlight in their own communities.

The National Roads Authority and Meath County Council have issued a propaganda pack on the archaeological aspects of the M3 and this is being selectively distributed countrywide. The pack includes a CD outlining how the proposed motorway might fit into the landscape. However, Rath Lugh, one of the main outposts of Tara, has been completely ignored. Perhaps the NRA and MCC do not want the public to know that it would be separated from its core, The impact on Skryne is also overlooked. Public taxpayers money is again being spent to promote a PPP project. The cost of this propaganda exercise is being investigated.

spokes@sacredireland.org
www.sacredireland.org
087-9249510

by FF Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:36

Exerpt from news on ireland.com.

FF legacy of 'bribery and corruption', say Greens
Ireland.com, Last updated: 25-03-06, 16:03

Green Party leader Trevor Sargent today launched a stinging attack on the Fianna Fail saying the country could no longer afford to be ruled by the current Government.

"Bribery, corruption and bad planning are a legacy of Fianna Fail domination in Government, locally and nationally."

He goes on to say:

'The Government had spent billions on commuter motorways which had failed, he said during an attack on transport policy.

"This is a government which values the volume of construction ahead of good design. This is a Government that has spent four times more on new roads than on new public transport," said Mr Sargent.

If ministers had taken the Green's advice and switched the spending ratio around, there would already be a Western rail corridor linking Limerick, Galway, Sligo and Cork.

There would also be a commuter rail service to Navan and "an extensive light rail system throughout the Dublin area that actually joins up," he said."