Is Ireland a democracy

by Umar Tue Jan 06, 2004 23:29

You gotta love these ambiguous events. Always the opening what is democracy completely sidelining the actual fact that whatever it may be defined as we are certainly nowhere near it. Though then there is the question is democracy really something that we should be aiming for. Do we really believe that the majority of people are capable of acting in their own interests?

by Gott in Himmel Wed Jan 07, 2004 01:40

Definitely some sort of Socialist recruitment day being planned here, it's all the useal Communist crap about how we are so unfree and how marvellous a state-controlled dronelike existence would be.

by Mankind Wed Jan 07, 2004 02:23

Has anyone ever read Parecon by Michael Albert?

by Yossarian Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:39

If by Parecon you mean "Moving Forward: Towards A Participatory Economy" the answer is yup. The three basic suggestions are fair pay for actual work (ie unrelated to the "importance" of the job but related to the hours and difficulty of the job); a balanced job complex (ie a mix of cerebral and manual work) and I can't remember the third! Good read, interesting suggestions for a decent future.

by David Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:57

Its not a socialist recruitment fair, it's a good way to accumulate properly researched data on the state of "Democracy" in Ireland at present and in the past. Although it will probably feature a lot of preaching to the converted, it is likely to be a useful resource for activists to find out details of what is going on.
In my opinion

by Moral Capitalist Wed Jan 07, 2004 14:20

Hey clown! Are you a communist or socialist if you choose to question the actions of your government?? Imbeciles like you are whats holding this country back from real equality. Anytime someone tries to talk fairness or equality , brainwashed clowns like you use your brainwashed scaremongering to encourage people to ignore the arguments as fallacious..... Rubberhead!!!

by Joe Citizen Wed Jan 07, 2004 15:17

This sounds like an interesting and useful conference. I have one question: Who is organising it? Is it something called "Ireland Democracy"? And if it is, what is "Ireland Democracy". I think the original poster should fill us in on this and it will stop silly postings about communist plots etc.

by Indy kid Wed Jan 07, 2004 17:25

"Is Ireland a Plutocracy?"

by Maubere Wed Jan 07, 2004 18:00

Democracy=Rule by the people,

ie all the people in a country rule it, and everybody has equal power and influence over the government

If anyone thinks that the average citizen in Ireland has the same influence over our government as the CEO of Bank of Ireland or Tony O' Reilly, Dermot Desmond etc, than yes we do live in a democracy, otherwise we don't. (this same principle applies to all countries in the world)
Elections dont make a democracy, the USSR had elections but it wasnt democratic because all candidates had to be in the Communist Party and the party controlled the media,
In the West you have to be in the Business Party to get into government (Business pays for election campaigns) and Business controls the media through ownership and advertising.

When everyone has an equal say as to how we live and develope the world then we will have true democracy

by Umar Wed Jan 07, 2004 21:08

The perfect society where everyone is involved in decisions that affect them. It sounds like a lofty goal. However, one person's interests generally run contrary to the interests of another's and we end up in some form of compromise situation. Compromise is what we have right now. If the ruling class had their way then the masses would not have the few comforst they have. Instead the masses would find themsleves even further inferior to the ruling classes. We are living in a state of compromise. We are the middle children of history. Democracy has reached its saturation in the form of Representative Democracy with all its many flaws. Perfect democracy is something that can never work in large communities with the whole process proving wholly impossible to negotiate.

by j26 Wed Jan 07, 2004 23:12

Have we already voted to allow the accession of the 10 new members to the EU. I was not aware that we had, but everyone seems to talk about the countries joining in May. Have I missed something or do we not have to have a bit of a vote on it? Is democracy gone that bad here?

by Moral Capitalist Wed Jan 07, 2004 23:28

Damn straight lad/lass!!! In the west you have to be the business party to be in government. Its a pity the majority of the electorate cant see this!!

by hurler on the ditch Thu Jan 08, 2004 16:02

Ever hear about the Nice Treaty ?

In fact the Irish people - one of the few if not the only one in the EU - had a direct vote on this - TWICE - (because they didn't get it right first time) .....

Of course the pedants out there will point out that Nice was not strictly speaking about enlargement - which is in fact correct - although it was sold to the Irish Volk as being "necessary for the enlagrement process" ....

In general there is no popular vote on EU issues in most member states - these things are decided by the parliament. Ireland is an exception to this rule thanks to the late Raymond Crotty and the Supreme court ruling on the Single European Act (SEA) a precursor to Nice .......

However, as you can see it's something which our politicos detest especially because you cannot depend on the people to give the right answer ......

by Mankind Thu Jan 08, 2004 17:00

Umar, I don't quite get the point you're trying to make. Elaborate please.

by Umar Fri Jan 09, 2004 01:06

Democracy doesn't get any better than this. It has evolved to the stage from where it will no longer progress. Simply put, ideas of a socialist utopia, where democracy is the rule of everyone and not the few as is the case in a representative democracy, are mere dreams that can never take shape outside the heads of those who believe in fairy tales. In the real world,democracy has reached it's conclusions. Either you like it or you think of something better. All I am saying is that democracy needs to cease being preached of as if it were some divine religion sent down to mankind with which humanity would somehow progress. There are ways in which we can treat each other and provide a better life for all. Democracy is a good concept which has manifested itself, for practical reasons, in representative democracy. However, I believe a perfect democracy where everyone has a right to a say in all decisions concerning them to be neither workable, plausible nor desireable.

by Mankind Fri Jan 09, 2004 18:17

I don't agree. I think the top down governance (left or right) that calls itself democracy has proved a catastrophic failure. In the bigger picture the current global state of the world is a disaster. Ireland is lucky to be on the winning side of this global rip off.

On a domestic level the social contract is not being fufilled. We're all getting shafted. By hearing ideas like Parecon you can see that people are trying to come up with workable alternatives to the current state of disfunctional democracy where we are ruled by the uber-rich and the voting public are just another lobby, and not a very important one at that.

I believe we also have an unrepresentative media that refuses to think outside the box (excuse the phrase). As a result we are in a catatonic mist, convinced of our powerlessness. A cosy catatonia.

You say that a grassroots democracy is not desireable. This seems to me a kind of a pretzel logic. If people cannot govern themselves who is to govern them? Other people I presume. Who are these other people and what makes them better than the people they are making decisions for? If you're worried about the unruley mob than you have to consider what makes them an unruley mob. It seems to me masses are whipped into a frenzy when they are misled by the few who own all of the means of mass communication (war for example).

Present day democracy is a capitalist economic fundementalist state of perpetual crisis management, where half of the world is starved to death and enslaved so that the other half can eat chocolate and have playstations. In fact both halves could be eating chocolate and using playstations, if only the ruling uber-rich could find it in their hearts to lessen their beloved profit margins.

We can do a lot better than this don't you think? What's your alternative?

by Umar Fri Jan 09, 2004 18:33

I believe not everyone should have a right to decisions quite simply as such. Should an alcoholic have a say over alcohol policy, or a drug addict over the drug policy, or a criminal over new laws? I believe not. If a friend gave me a gun on loan, and while I had the gun on loan he became insane and suicidal, should I return the gun to him? This man is not capable of making a sensible decision. I confess as to not having found a suitable alternative to the system but do not believe that conceptions of direct democracy is workable. One main problems is that those who speak of these utopias generally never have any plans by which to achieve the ultimate goal. The problem with Russia in 1917 was that they had many of the correct criticisms of capitalism but once power was seized they knew not what to do with it. The Russian Revolution was coup d'etat not a revolution. Anarchists have never been in power so we have no test case. However, with the advocation of no organisation if feel that these individuals will never achieve anything substantial. I am willing to listen to all arguments but as of yet have been convinced of nothing from any left organisation.

by Badman Fri Jan 09, 2004 18:41

You must be pretty pissed off with the status quo Umar - only the criminals have a say in new laws, the biggest criminals of all - those in the dail.

by Umar Fri Jan 09, 2004 18:47

There are those in the Dail and then there are those who rob, kill and cause general choas to a country. I understand that those in the Dail are not the most upstanding citizens by any stretch of the imagination. However, I don't retract the statement that criminals should not be given a say in making laws. Not believing the system to be perfect I don't believe that allowing those who contribute to making it worse a decision will make that world any better unless we decide to legalise everything and let everyone do anything. Then there would be no criminals only your 'ruling class'. Would you prefer that?

by cynical bastard Fri Jan 09, 2004 19:00

Surely the poor Micks in the Dail are for the most part only the wee messenger boys (and girls) for the real "crinnimels" behind the scenes .....

Yes they "make the laws" in the formal sense but in reality they are mostly acting under orders from their sponsors ....

(unless one is really naive enough to believe that all those donations came with no strings attached .....)