Another bin tax jailing - Mick Murphy

by Blockader Mon Nov 10, 2003 19:57

Solidarity to Mick and the other six!

by a Mon Nov 10, 2003 20:46

Can someone post the names of the bin tax prisoners and the prison they are held in?

by Brian Mon Nov 10, 2003 21:15

There are seven people in prison at the moment.

Fionn Ryder
David Murphy

are being held in Mounjoy

Oliver Shortt
Finian Smyth
John Murphy
Oliver O'Reilly

are being held in Wheatfield.

I don't know what prison Mick Murphy is in at the moment.

by fk Mon Nov 10, 2003 21:47

Today David Murphy, a 2nd year Arts student in University College Dublin and
jailed bin tax protester, was formally nominated to stand in the Academic Council elections next
week. The Academic Council is a college body which is in charge of the
academic side of the University (ie appointment of lecturers,
approving courses etc). It is made up of the Professors, Deans, Senior
Lectuers etc and there are a token number of students who are directly elected.

David is contesting the Undergraduate Arts constituency, which has 3
seats. This could be seen as the
first 'electoral test' of the bin tax issue. A good vote for David
will show the solidarity that exists among his fellow students and
will be a protest against the jailing tactic of the Councils.

This election may also make history as David will be the first
Prisoner to be elected to UCD's Academic Council in it's 150 year history. The election will take place on the 18/19 of November.

by Mickey Mon Nov 10, 2003 21:55

I presume that "put him in to get him out" is meant as a joke considering that being elected to membership of the UCD Academic Council will have no impact whatsoever on whether of not Dave has to serve his whole sentence.

Congratulations on a good idea though if it helps raise the profile of the bin tax and the bin tax prisoners around Belfield.

by fk Mon Nov 10, 2003 22:03

I do think that a very successful election campaign that publicises his case more and builds serious opposition to his jailing among students could see the further pressure being mounted on the councils. And we must remember that the council or government could free these prisoners immediately by simply lifting the implementation of non collection in South Dublin.

I heard from someone the other day that Joe and Clare were the first political prisoners in Ireland to serve a full sentence in 50 years. So I don't think we should be too conservative in our goals, lets try to get these people out!

by David Libre! Tue Nov 11, 2003 00:24

It looks like this 'prisoner candidate' thing could get a bit of media interest. I will also love to see what the University authorities think of 'their' Academic Council being used for political campaigns. For those that do not know, the Academic Council is a very rarified body, akin to a prestegious debating society, dominated by the senior academics, it has a long history of being populated by the prominant academics of UCD's history.

They only grudgingly allowed any students on it a few years ago. The last thing they will want is a prisoner to be elected. I'd love to be in the room when David goes to his first meeting, and listen to the College President specially welcome him to his first meeting as is the custom!

by cabra community - anti- bin tax Tue Nov 11, 2003 03:12

the Cabra-Dunard-Navan Road campaign against the Bin Tax will hold a protest march on Mountjoy Gaol next Monday (17th) in solidarity with the jailed protestors. assemble 7pm at Quarry Road in Cabra. the campaign asks all political parties/groups to refrain from carrying their political banners and to just use anti-bin tax material.
all welcome.

by Fed up - The Vast Majority Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:36

Mick Murphy chose to go to jail. At least he had a choice, unlike the vast majority of us who would have no choice about having our bins collected - and more importantly our views respected - if you lot had your way. Wolfe Tone, Padraig Pearse, Bobby Sands, MICK MURPHY? I think not.

by Katie - Personal Capacity Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:43

Mick did not choose to go to jail, he chose not to give up his right to protest and was subsequently sent to jail. There is a difference

by tahoola Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:23

All protesters being held in Mountjoy are members of the SP. I would think that is very unfair that the SP be banned from protesting outside the Joy by the Cabra group. They are the only party that have played a consistantly decent role in this struggle. It is highly undemocratic that they be banned from participating in the demo, it is a question of freedom of speech and freedom of association.

by Fed Up - The Vast Majority Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:30

Katie, with respect, the difference you talk about exists only in the mindset of a minority. For the rest of us, Mick M and the others were offered the choice between obeying the law (protecting the rest of us) and punishment. They chose not to abide by the law. You might make the point that unjust laws/policies etc need to be broken but this situation does not warrant it as the majority of people are willing to pay (I said willing not happy).

People are not going to jail for the right to protest, and there is truth in the view that it is as much about giving the Socialiat Party and it's candidates a platform for the next local election as it is about anything else. By the way, just to pre-empt the juvenive contributors, I am not a troll or a lackey.

I respect the commitment of the people who were jailed but that is all. Why not campaign for a fairer payment system like in Fingal which at least has some passing reference to recycling and environmental policy. The flat charge is unfair and regressive but not worth going to jail over.

by pat c Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:46

it was a request from the cabra group, not an edict. but it would be a good idea if for once a demo was not hijacked by political placards/banners. the sp are by no means the worse at this.

lets show that the campaign is genuinely community based and is not dominated by any one group. respect the wishes of the cabra group.

by Jim Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:02 jmcd73 at yahoo dot co dot uk

Lets not pretend that Mick Murphy did not want to go to jail, his brief spell will set him up nicely for next years local elections.

If you think I am being a little cynical you only have to note how the fingal campaign has ground to a halt since Joe Higgins and Clare Daly were released. They got what they wanted and seem to have no intention ot really fight this battle.

Now it has been left to a variety of political activists in isolated pockets to fight this double tax.

It may not be popular or "right" but I am a little sick of being dicked around by political parties who with their own agenda furtively run broad front campaigns, radicalise people and when they have got what they want, (in the case of Joe and Clare their dail seats in 2007), leave working class people high and dry.

There all the same - cynical and self serving.

by Left Republican Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:09

It was leading members of the SP who chose not to go to court/jail after recent blockades on the Northside.
A case of selective vanguardism or just a change of tactics comrade.

by tahoma Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:28

Not a change of tactics or not selective 'vanguardism'. At that particular time it was not the best tihnig for key organisers in Fingal to be sent down, it would have meant that the campaign would have been smashed straight away.I think if you look at the SP members who have been sent down like Fionn and Dave, these people are not candidates in the elections, they o not want publicity, they are ordinary lads who are members of the SP.

by benjy Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:33

I think that the stand taken by Mick and the rest of the imprisoned protesters should be applauded. If they are allowed get away with just bullying people into ending protests with threats of jail and injunctions then democracy is as good as smashed in this country. If the bin tax campaing did not take a stand and show utter contempt for these kangaroo courts and the councils then the next time there are protests or strikes the establishment will just use these tactics of jailings to break resistence.

Fair play to Mick and the rest of them. I really do think that it is simply sectarian bickering or the fact that you really know that SF would not stand up for people and go to prison to defend democracy that has you slagging off bin tax protesters

by Left Republican Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:36

I was talking about last week, not the start of the campaign.

by tahoma Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:45

Who are you talking about? As far as I know no SP members were up in court and threatened with imprisonment in Fingal, City or DLR

by Left Republican Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:53

Ask leading member(s), they should know.
Also you are not that clued in, you only have to look at other threads to see that one of the two you mention is in fact eh, running for election.

by Fed Up - The Vast Majority Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:57

Benjy, old stock, it was not protest that people got jailed for - it was the form of protest. Hassling bin workers and preventing a service to people who do not share the same view or strength of views as the campaigners. Protest Yes, Bullying Tactics No. It really is that simple.

by tahoma Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:57

I'd hardly call Acedemic Council in UCD a proper election. Only 2 to 3 hundred students will vote in his constutuency. And Acedemic Council has no power whatsoever, it really is a nothing institution. His election campaign is not really and election but a propaganda campaign.

The fact is that no members of the SP other than the 3 jailed from Tallaght were in court last week. You are the one who does not know what they are talking about.

by benjy Tue Nov 11, 2003 13:03

'Fed Up' you are not the vast majority. The vast majority are opposed to bin tax and do not pay it. All the genuine figures in the city, Dun Lapghaire and South Dublin back this up.

Were you ever on a bin tax demo? Obviously not because if you were you would know that NO bn men were ever intimidated by protesters. Just yesterday I was on a blockade, we were chatting with the bin men, sharing tea etc. It is the inspecter who threatened a bin man yesterday with the sack for lifting a bin of a non payer.

Mick and the rest were sent to prison for protesting. The injunction was against all forms of protest. If tomorrow you were engaged in a peaceful strike or protest and the authorities got an injunction against you engaging in any form of protest would you comply? You probably would because you're a scab. But most people would not, the right of protest must be defnded, we cannot allow the state use these bully boy tactics to smash dissent.

by Left Republican Tue Nov 11, 2003 13:16

You are right there are no members of the SP in court this week - I wonder why.
So no correspondence from Dublin City corpo then?
Do you really want it spelt out?
I do know what I'm talking about 'comrade'.

Do all the verbal gymnastics you want on what is and what is not an election. He's running, the SP are propagandising, people are voting - seems like an election to me.

by Fed Up - Vast Majority Tue Nov 11, 2003 14:25

Benjy, I said hassling not intimidating, and if you think that blocking trucks and depots is not causing hassle for workers then what can I say. Re the vast majority of people not supporting the tactics, I stand by this. I was at pains - because I knew how it would be twisted - to say that while people might not like the tax, they do not consider it a big enough issue to fight on. This has nothing to do with what % have paid as people will get away without paying for as long as possible but will cough up when they have to. I notice that you forgot to mention Fingal in your statistics - convienently? This is where the campaign has being going the longest and virtually all people are paying now, proving that people will cough up when they have to.

PS I now have to go to work so goodbye.

by sp election - sp Tue Nov 11, 2003 17:18

The SP has been involved for years long long before this years election, everyone knows this.

by Funny Bone Tue Nov 11, 2003 17:28

The stand that is being taken by all seven of those in prison should be applauded by all concerned. Three are members of the SP, the majority are not. Who cares? All of them them deserve our respect and our solidarity.

The likes of "Left Republican" and "Fed Up" make me sick quite frankly.

by Spelvis Tue Nov 11, 2003 17:56

You all seem upset by having to pay Bin tax. Could someone explain why this is the case?

Why not instead campaign about VAT??

There are diferent methods of collecting tax in this country. Direct and indirect. Am I able to say to a shopkeeper " Sorry I do not wish to pay VAT as I have already paid PAYE"?

We must all accept that the bins must be collected and someone has to pay for this. We must pay for this. The money raised goes towards recycling (not free) and waste management programmes (also not free).

We could instead just continue to fill dumps with our unrecycled rubbish. Would you prefer that?? it is cheaper!!

Yes, we were told that we wouldn't have to pay this previously. We were told a lot of things by this government.. But YOU voted for them.. The old saying "you get the government you deserve" comes to mind.

The money which was supposed to pay for this was wasted by our government. WE let them do this. Now we must pay for our foolishness. This is a lesson we must learn.

If we refuse to pay, then nobody will collect our rubbish. Would YOU collect my garbage for free?? I doubt it.. The workers must be paid.. Nothing is free... If you continue to act like this the whole industry will be privatised.. No exemptions will exist (not profitable) .. everyone will pay more..

As for the right to protest. This is a different matter. Nobody should be arrested for peaceful protest. it is a threat to our whole community. It is also particularly disgusting that the protesting has now become illegal. There is a strong link being formed between the govt and the judiciary.. For highlighting this the protesters have all my respect.

I am in an unenviable position of being for the protestors, but against the protest.. Perhaps my mind is not completly functional..

Hopefully somebody can point out all my mistakes above and give me a hard time..

by Terry Tue Nov 11, 2003 18:01

The Bin Tax campaign is widely supported at least passively. Many have not paid and many who have paid don't want to pay.

The campaign is constantly been beat on the head with the accusation that it only represents a very small bunch of people. It doesn't help of course that the numbers involved on the streets are rather low compared to the vast masses of people living in the various housing estates and so forth. As I have indicated the pro-charges people see this as an indication of support.

Instead I see it as a measure of the very widespread levels of apathy and the incredibly high levels of passivity in society today. Many, many people have said to me not just on this issue but everything from the war to the state of the world environment that there is nothing you can do and anything you do do, will make no difference anyhow. Not only that many do not want to be seen to be involved in anything whatsover, for numerous reasons from fear of what their friends, collegues and neighbours might say. Instinctively people know that or at least think, they will be condemned by others and seen as extremists or radicals of some sort and they do not have the ability to defend against the accusations and arguments that would be pitted against them. They see this in the media, even though they may not be fully aware of noticing it and that is how when anyone challenges the system, that they are derided and made to look ridiculous.

In effect, people are isolated and don't communicate with each other and so in the case of the Bin Tax, many do not realize that everyone else is thinking what they are thinking. As an example at one Bin Tax meeting about 2 months ago, a woman stood up and said that she thought she was the only one in her office of 10, who hadn't paid. But when the discussion one day got around to the Bin Tax, the all asked each other, and in fact 8 out of 10 hadn't paid!

Society not just here, but most other countries is heavily socially engineered and it is expressively designed to produce this behaviour that we see today -i.e passive and servile. This does and has very greatly reduced the risk of any real threat from the masses uniting and challenging the system.

For a more complete insight into this social engineering see the essay by John Gatto on compulsory school (Note school does not equal education) at
http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm

Lots more at: http://www.spinninglobe.net/gattopage.htm

Ideally we should have 10s of 1000s on the streets and at blockades and if that was the case this Bin Tax problem would be wrapped up very quickly indeed.

And lastly to 'Bin Tax?!' by Spelvis, go and read:
http://www.stopthebintax.com/RecyclingArticle.htm
A Proper Waste Management Policy Now

by Left Republican Tue Nov 11, 2003 18:09

Umm I make you sick - why I wonder? Could it be for questioning the SP holier than thou approach.
At what stage did they change tactics and how informed was the campaign.

Believe me 'comrade' I do have solidarity for all who have taken part in this campaign, no matter how small their contribution. It is just that I do not support unreservedly all of the positions put forward by the SP and that would seem to be a crime to certain members of the SP.

I wonder where Tahoma got to. He went quiet all of a sudden. He must belong to the floor where all you do is learn the decisions, not the floor where things are decided.

by Funny Bone Tue Nov 11, 2003 18:14

because instead of offering solidarity to those in prison, you are trying (and failing) to sow division. You dismiss a whole load of the people who are now or have been jailed as just doing it to raise their electoral profile and then you throw around a whole lot of other anonymous and un-backed up allegations.

You are a troll and you have the fucking cheek to troll on a thread about the people in jail. That's why you make me sick.

by Left Republican Tue Nov 11, 2003 18:28

In my initial post I never mentioned elections. Tahoma introduced that particular piece to the debate saying that Finn and David were not candidates for elections - I just pointed out that this was wrong. Take it up with Tahoma. I don't give a fuck who runs for elections. In fact I hope he wins - it would seem that UCD could do with people prepared to make a stand.

As to my other comment I stand by it, I think it interesting that the SP unilaterally changed a tactic without discussing it with others (and for all I know internally). It is probably right to change tactics but expect others who you condemned for not collectively taking part in your original tactic to smirk at the lack of knowledge or communication around the new tactic.
As to sowing division, well the SP are in a league of their own when it comes to that. Lets have a meeting before the meeting.

by matt Tue Nov 11, 2003 18:34

Most people will not pay any bill if they can get away with it. Would it be heresy to suggest that this is the real reason for non-payment of the bin tax? and that people believed for a time that there was a chance to have it revoked through the City and County Councils? If that were the case, then it would be a much bigger issue as people would know that they could potentially elect Councils next June that would overturn it. That is no longer possible since the latest legislation in Leinster House gives that power to City and County Managers. So how can it be overturned? And don't start going on about a revolution or a general strike because that ain't gonna happen. And people know that so the campaign will have to present them with a viable alternative. The realisation that this is required is the reason behind the differnet and ever changing tactics of the main left groups involved, ie. SF, SP, SWP, WP and the smaller groups. Again, at the risk of heresy, can people not see a gradual coming together of those positions? and that the eventual point of arrival will be where SF began? despite all the crap about selling out. The SP have indeed made some gains out of it and as others have said now seem content to consolidate and use it for the locals, as they are perfectly entitled to do. That is what it is all about after all. And their leaders are surely long enough in the tooth to have grown out of whatever fantasies they might once have had about 1917 and all that. They are not going to lose those gains by continuing to block trucks that are collecting the bins of those who haven't paid. If they were thinking on those lines, Higgins and Daly would have been back in court. So I predict a continued winding down of the campaign which will end not with a bang but a whimper. Oh, and by the way, I haven't paid mine .....

by Funny Bone Tue Nov 11, 2003 18:39

What the fuck are you talking about?

You came onto this thread claiming that the SP had changed tactics and weren't willing to go to jail any more. On a thread about the jailing of yet another SP member. Two jailed last week. One jailed this week.

So what exactly is your point except for anonymously throwing insults? (And what a place to do it). That the SP isn't just itching to get thrown into prison down to that last man and woman?

by Left Republican Tue Nov 11, 2003 19:11

I said in my original post
"leading members of the SP chose not to go to court/jail after recent blockades on the Northside."

If you don't believe it - fair enough. To me it was lucky that they had the choice and I don't blame them for making it.

I was only responding to an earlier part of the thread which was talking about choices. Leading members of the SP had a choice last week and exercised it. Fair play to them. Hence the reason there are none in court this week.
I just believe that they were lucky to have it and its a shame that more in the campaign don't know about it.
Just wondering - where the replies sent in brown envelopes?

by ec Tue Nov 11, 2003 19:22

Pay rise to force hike in council charges
(Cut and Paste from unison.ie)


LOCAL authorities - facing crippling benchmarking award payments - will be forced to raise service charges for householders and businesses for the second time in just two years.

Cash-strapped councils around the country, who are currently preparing their estimates, are expected to seek increases across a wide range of areas including commercial rates, bin charges and other service charges in an effort to meet a €220m benchmarking bill.

The councils are being forced to impose the increases because unlike other public sector bodies they must meet the cost of benchmarking - 50pc of which is due in January - from existing budgets. Gardai and health board employees will have awards paid by the exchequer.

Dublin City Council is facing a total bill of around €30m to meet benchmarking and pay awards under the sustaining progress agreement. The council is now faced with increasing service charges or cutting back on services - which could involve job cuts.

Other local authorities have also indicated that paying the estimated 34,000 staff working in county councils around the country will require increased charges to households and businesses.

Research carried out by the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland showed that in the last decade commercial rates had increased at almost double the rate of inflation, shooting up by 25pc last year in some areas.

The decision by craftworkers in local authorities who are not eligible for benchmarking to accept a 17pc wage increase on Friday will place additional pressures on local authorities. Staff in the benchmarking process are expecting to see long-awaited salary increases of between 7-10pc when payment falls due on January 1 next.

The Department of the Environment and Local Government has confirmed that benchmarking awards will have to be met by each local authority.

Dublin City Council said yesterday it did not expect to receive any increased funding from the department.

Sources in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council confirmed that increased charges were expected to be proposed when the estimates process begins next month.

And Kildare County Council said yesterday it would be "difficult to see how charges won't increase".

Paul Melia

by True Left Republican Tue Nov 11, 2003 19:23

As somebody who considers herself a left republican I would hope you would ignore what is quite obviously a troll looking to get a rise out of you.

Show solidarity not this bullshit.

By the way I seen a few SP comrades in court, esp on Monday.

by Blockader Tue Nov 11, 2003 23:54

Left Republican is not a troll.
Tactics by their nature are flexible and what is applicable one week can be wrong the following week.
Up until and including the jailing of the campaigners from Finglas, the effect of the jailings was to engender anger amongst the working class and amongst the membership of the anti-bin tax campaign. The jailings also graphically exposed the hypocrisy of the so-called "justice system" and the political establishment which jailed decent working class people for protesting whilst the millionaire tax cheats walked around free. The jailings instilled in some a willingness to struggle and participate actively in the campaign in various ways. However, even from the beginning of this current phase of the bin tax battle, threats to bring protesters to court, with imprisonment, fines, costs etc hanging over their heads created a mood of caution amongst many involved in the campaign. These threats were meant to intimidate the residents involved in this campaign, and even from the beginning of the use of the tactic of blockades in Fingal, some residents were intimidated. The imprisonment of Joe and Clare also had its negative side which was that some of the protesters did take a step back and become more cautious about putting themselves in a situation were they might end up in court.
However the anti-bin tax campaign has never had a policy of deliberately getting its members jailed in order to advance the fight against non-collection. Correctly, protesters decided that to back down in front of this intimidation and bullying would’ve probably sounded the death knell for the campaign. Therefore Joe, Clare and the other campaigners made an important and courageous decision to take a stand.
The current battle is going through a new phase. It does not have the same intensity as it did in the first six weeks since non-collection was first started in Fingal. In Fingal the majority of residents are buying tags for their bins. In the Dublin City area the campaign is weak in many communities and non existent in others. Political parties such as the SWP, Sinn Fein (with the exception of some noteworthy rank and file Sinn Fein members) and other individuals including some in leading positions in the campaign have decided to leave the arena of the battlefield. Some of them may even now believe that the battle against the bin tax is lost. In the case of the SWP they haven’t actually engaged in the battle at all and have done everything they can to undermine and curtail community based direct action against non-collection.
A general who only knows the command charge will never win a war. It is necessary in all battles to retreat, to rebuild your forces, to take stock, to have an overview of a campaign and to change tactics to suit new and ever changing conditions and situations.
All of the real anti-bin tax campaigns who have employed the tactic of blockades know that this is a tactic that can’t just be used on a constant basis regardless of the mood amongst the working class. This tactic has changed and been adapted since it was first employed in Fingal. The blockading of the bin depots on 14 and 15 October was an important highlight of this campaign. It helped show the establishment that the campaign had the capacity to shut the City’s bin collection service down. It also helped develop links between the bin workers and the campaign in a real and meaningful way - unlike the liberal meet and greet tactics of others. If the campaign was to just keep going back to the depots week after week and mounting blockades without taking into consideration the mood and the needs of the bin workers and also the residents who are members of the campaign then what was positive on 14 and 15 October would very quickly become a negative. New tactics are being developed as this battle unfolds. In recent days campaigners in some areas of the City have been putting the rubbish of non-payers into the back of the bin trucks to frustrate the Council but also to spread the campaign to new areas. Even into some areas who have voting representatives at the central activists meetings! But it was not these voting delegates who took on the Council officials and the Gardai, but others - those who have been consistently putting up a resistance to non-collection.
Right now blockades are not to the forefront of the battle. However that may change even within a matter of days. When the Council have to enforce real non-collection in working class areas then the tactic of blockades as they were employed in Fingal will come more onto the agenda again. Amongst those who are the real activists in the anti-bin tax campaign, the blockade tactic has not been abandoned, it is a weapon which is we have tested in the battle and which we will use continually in this campaign but with varying degrees depending on the intensity of the battle.
When the protesters from the South County Dublin area were jailed there was a universal recognition amongst the most active campaigners that this “set” of jailings had a negative effect on the mood of the residents and the working class in general. The protests and the outcry against these jailings was muted in comparison to the previous jailings. In the current climate the imprisonment of a further seven anti-bin tax campaigners has had a negative effect on the campaign. However, it would have been a mistake if all of the 17 protesters from the South County Dublin Campaign had’ve given undertakings. This may have mortally wounded that campaign. By taking their courageous stand the seven protesters who are currently in Mountjoy and Wheatfield are strengthening the campaign against non-collection in South County Dublin. But if more people had been jailed this week it would have had a further negative effect on the campaign. Hence it is now correct were possible to avoid further jailings during this phase of the campaign. It would be irresponsible to take any other position - it would seriously damage and undermine the anti-bin tax campaign. Therefore it is correct that anti-bin tax campaigners should take measures to thwart the ability of the Councils and the Gardai to take peoples names on protests etc, whilst at the same time not undermining the effectiveness of the protests and when it is possible to tactically retreat in order to stop campaigners from being taken to court.
It is impossible to give a blueprint for how this battle will unfold. In a matter of days, depending on the tactics of the Councils, the campaign may once again be blockading all of the bin depots and or blockading bin trucks in the communities. Or it may be further off. The implementation of non-collection in a more universal way will dramatically affect the mood of the communities on this issue. Community based direct action, as has been shown already, will be the most effective tactic in our arsenal to defeat non-collection. In that context it may once again be correct to take a stand against the intimidation of the courts and this may mean more people deciding that they won’t give undertakings and therefore have to face the prospect of going to jail.
When non-collection has been implemented the real anti-bin tax campaigners from various political parties, groups, and from none, have made a stand and fought the Councils, and stood up to the courts. They continue to do so on a daily basis. I am confident that they will not be found wanting when non-collection is more widespread.
The phantom anti-bin tax campaigns and campaigners, whose attitude from the beginning has been not to engage in the battle, and who have consistently stated that we must all wait until non-collection arrives at your front door before you can fight, have clearly shown that they will never fight on this issue. They have in reality already admitted defeat! To them the anti-bin tax campaign is a flag of convenience in order to try and get some credibility for their local election campaigns next year. However they maybe in for a shock. When it comes to the elections the working class will not be fooled easily, its hard to pretend to have fought in battle when you never even went to the war.
The last point is really a question to Left Republican. You agreed with the tactical decision that at this stage it was correct to, were possible avoid protesters being taken to court, in the context that more jailings would have a negative impact on the campaign. So why have you raised this issue on Indymedia?

by matt Wed Nov 12, 2003 09:42

Indeed they will not! Mind you, the SP have done their best. Hard luck. Better luck next time.

by stop the bin tax Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:44

Most parts of the country have privatised the bin collection service so the councils cannot raise revenue from this source. The only measures open to the councils are to re-introduce water charges etc. This is a big one for Begg and ICTU, lets start the pressure now.

by SWP Watcher Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:47

The SWP have not only exposed themselves by their lack of involvement in the bin tax movement they are now also really messing things up in the IAWM. The latest bulletin from the IAWM is dominated by information on the SWP Marxism 2003 event, it even gives details of individual meetings how much it costs and how to contact the SWP. I assume that we can expect the anti-bin tax conference to be bombarded by leaflets and appeals for people to go to the SWP recruitment affair!

by Tahoma Wed Nov 12, 2003 13:35

"You are right there are no members of the SP in court this week - I wonder why.
So no correspondence from Dublin City corpo then?
Do you really want it spelt out?"

You clearly do not know how the the process of how you appear in court or how the injunctions are served. I'd guess because you are not on any of the injunctions or have not been involved in the bin tax campaign. When you are injuncted and the papers are served you have NO CHOICE about wether you go to the court or not. It is simply the case that No SP members other than the 3 currently in prison were served with papers to appear in front of the court in the past 10 days or so.

"Do all the verbal gymnastics you want on what is and what is not an election. He's running, the SP are propagandising, people are voting - seems like an election to me."

The SP have been involved with the bin tax campaing for the past 5 years. The motivation for the SP's involvment is to defeat the bin tax and build a movement against neo liberalism. If you go onto the ground you will find that some of the hardest work is being put in in areas in which the SP do not plan to stand candidates, so how do you explain this?

by repowatch Wed Nov 12, 2003 13:43

Maybe Left Republican shoudl justify the actions of his favoured party SF. Sinn Féin councillor, Mark Daly has called for people to pay their bin tax. SF in Sligo support bin tax and the privitisation of the bin service.

Of course whereever SF have been given the chance, they have bowed to the interests of big business. In Enniskillen they favour the closure of Omagh hospital, while in Omagh they favour the closure of Enniskillen hospital. Nothing but cynical hypocrites. McGuinness also put the school workers out on strike when he savagely attacked their pay rates and working conditions. SF have also taken thousends off Coca Cola and in return their full time union official Anne Speed campaigns for UCD students union to keep Coke intheir shops. Sinn Fein is a capitalist party, they are rotten.

by Tahoma Wed Nov 12, 2003 13:53

I wonder where Left Republican got to. He went quiet all of a sudden. He must belong to the floor where all you do is learn the decisions, not the floor where things are decided.

by trotwatch Wed Nov 12, 2003 14:34

So how much does Higgins get from the "Westies" for never once opening his mouth about the fact that they have turned the working class estates that Higgins is supposed to represent into the most demoralised and gang infested part of the country. He's been there as a Councillor and TD for long enough and the place is getting worse and worse. Is he afraid of them, or is it something more sinister than that ????

by Ciaran Wed Nov 12, 2003 14:46

How come no other politican in Dublin 15 has talked about the Westies either?
Are they all afraid ?

by Dublin15 Wed Nov 12, 2003 14:49

Interesting observation although I would not agree with your implied conclusion. However, it is obvious why he does not speak about the Westies. There is only one crime that matters in the Book of Trot and that is to disagree with them.

by Chekov Wed Nov 12, 2003 14:58

The idea that Joe has anything to do with the Westies is ludicrous. As if one elected representative can have any real effect on a problem that springs from chronic deprivation, chaotic planning, appalling lack of services, etc, etc. It does go some way to show the limits of electoralism, but to suggest that Joe is somehow implicated or associated with the criminality is so far fetched as to be laughable. I wonder if the PD's/FF/FG will be harping on about Joe being soft on crime in the locals - cause they're the only ones who could possible benefit from that type or ridiculous attack.

by Dublin15 Wed Nov 12, 2003 15:10

Would not disagree with you about Joe and the Westies. However, re "chronic deprivation, chaotic planning, appalling lack of services, etc, etc", just imagine if Joe's version of socialism was in power, we could have these for the entire country! (History proves my point.)

by trotwatch Wed Nov 12, 2003 15:18

To tackle the problems of his constituents, unless of course rampant drug dealing, joyriding, muggings etc, etc are not problems are somewhow of lesser import than the great burden of alienation which as all us readers of the early Marx know, is the true affliction of the proletariat. As for Checkov's point regarding the Westies being the product of deprivation etc, etc. Right! Ever hear of evil? or plain old badness? Or is that something that only afflicts the bourgeoisie?

by Dealers Out Out Out Wed Nov 12, 2003 15:24

It is not one little bit ridiculous to ask what Higgins is doing, though the idea he should be blamed for the Westies is an odd one.

Working class left wing and republican activists have stood up to drug dealers and gangsters in parts of Dublin before, and have stood up to bigger and tougher people than the Westies I would point out.

It is a perfectly justifable question to ask why Higgins could talk until the cows come home about Iraq, double taxation, the neo-liberal agenda, and has nothing to say about gangland killings, massive drug dealing, brutal violence and assaults by organised criminal gangs based in his area.

Other politicians in the area have done so, other left wing activists in Dublin have stood up to these kinds of people. Higgins might have the courage to take on the cops, does he have it to take on the dealers? Frankly, I think that would be an issue of far greater concern to the working class to a lot of the nonsense that appears in Voice.

Where are the public meetings? The front groups? The poorly printed and spelt leaflets? Why is the Socialist Party willing to confront one enemy of the working class, the State, and happy to ignore the other major enemy?

by Left Republican Wed Nov 12, 2003 15:32

Even though I had intended my final word to be just that, it looks like I'll have to take up the gaunlet thrown down by Tahoma.

"When you are injuncted and the papers are served you have NO CHOICE about wether you go to the court or not."

Well that's where you are wrong. It seems that there was a third way. Read closer, what I wrote yesterday - the answer is there. I could spell it out but I'm not sure Blockader would be too happy.

"I wonder where Left Republican got to. He went quiet all of a sudden. He must belong to the floor where all you do is learn the decisions, not the floor where things are decided. "

Wrong again. It would seem that Blockader is on the decision making floor whereas it would seem that you are not even on the floor where you learn the decisions. Take it up with them.

by Joe Wed Nov 12, 2003 15:33

Taking on a psycho gang like the Westies on a local basis would require having some sort of credible armed force on your side. Even if it was never used it would need to be obvious that any resort to armed attacks could be met with overwhelming retaliation in kind.

The anti-heroin movement in Dublin could take such a confrontational approach to dealers because this they knew that retaliation could lead to a response they would be unable to match. That threat was mostly provided by the IRA but also in some areas by so called 'Ordinary Decent Criminals'. The extent to which it was used is not as relevant as the fact that it was quite credible that it might be and that put (some) manners on the dealers.

As far as I know the SP lacks an armed wing :-)

by Chekov Wed Nov 12, 2003 15:42

"As for Checkov's point regarding the Westies being the product of deprivation etc, etc. Right! Ever hear of evil? or plain old badness? Or is that something that only afflicts the bourgeoisie? "

Why is it that the vast majority of violent crime takes place in poorer areas and most of the crims are themselves from poorer backgrounds? Are poorer people genetically pre-disposed to violent crime?

I'm not saying that anybody should be soft on the Westies. If it was feasible I would support taking them on physically as was done with drug dealers in the inner cities. I'm just saying that one elected representative can't possibly start to tackle the underlying reasons that cause crime to proliferate in places like West Dublin. As I have said, this just goes to show the limits of electoralism.

by Dealers out out out Wed Nov 12, 2003 16:16

One elected representative can certainly start it. It was unelected local representatives and activists who built the anti-drugs movement. We are regularly told that Joe Higgins single-handedly abolished the water charges, perhaps he could condescend to abolish the Westies while he was at it.

No amount of deprivation excuses drug dealing. None. I understand and don't need a lecture about why socially deprived areas are more prone to crime but it is exactly the weakest and most vulnerable elements of these socially deprived areas that are targetted by dealers and who live in fear as a result.

Taking Joe's point, I think the IRA influence in the campaign can be over-estimated a bit. Many of the pickets and checkpoints were manned by ordinary local people who were prepared to use force if necessary. But a lot of successes were had in pickets, marches, boycotts and blockades. Simply confronting these people makes their movements more difficul and forces the Gardai into the areas. The key success of the anti-drugs movement was not driving dealers out of areas, though that was done, it was shaming the Gardai into getting involved.

Dealers can be forced out, they can be stood up to. Other people, activists and parties are doing it in Dublin, why isn't Joe Higgins or the Socialist Party? Why will they take on one threat to working class communities and not another? Why will they stand up to Martin Cullen, but never stood up to Martin Cahill? Simple question, still no answer.

by Joe Wed Nov 12, 2003 16:22

I wasn't suggesting that it was the IRA rather then locals who did the groundwork in the anti-heroin stuff. I was suggesting that it was only (somewhat) 'safe' for the locals to do the pickets etc because the dealers knew that any serious misbehaviour might result in them ending up in a bin liner on the border. All the IRA's role had to be was to be a credible threat in that respect. The SP don't have an equivalent, Kevin's puppies only being useful for terrorising their own members.

In other words the probable reason for the lack of SP response to the westies is not bribes but the assumption that anything they mounted that was a serious challenge to the westies would result in dead SP members. These characters are not shy about murdering each other.

by trotwatch Wed Nov 12, 2003 17:03

Are you trying to suggest that the SP operates some kind of internal security? Surely not.

by Janus Wed Nov 12, 2003 18:13

I was involved in some of the anti-drug protests during the 1980s and 90s and while I was a member of Sinn Fein at the time, it didn't save me from more than one physical confrontation, nor was I then contacted by a big chap in a balaclava offering to demonstrate the use of a rifle for me.

I'd also say that a lot of people involved in the anti-drugs struggle were not Sinn Fein people, or even republicans. Many would have been opposed to us politically.

No-one is saying Joe Higgins should become a crime fighting superhero or anything, but certainly, as a local representative he should be involved in empowering communities.

The thing is though, Millie types tend to think that workers taking control of their areas and erecting barricades is reactionary vigilanteism. Always figured it more as a revolutionary act myself but then my ideology is probably suspect.

The point that the SP are willing to fight one kind of oppression and with great courage it must be noted; that carried out by the State and its enforcement agencies and willing to ignore another form of oppression in working class communities; drug dealing hoods is a very good one.

Revoluttionaries should be involved in fighting oppression of working class people no matter what form it takes. And yes Joe, it's dangerous. That's why it's revolution, not reform :)

by Terry Wed Nov 12, 2003 18:25

The question is while clearly previous anti-drugs groups formed by residents of yesteryear were a success at the time, why have they fizzled out?

And I think the answer is that their very success undermined the power and authority of the State by demonstrating to the State/Govt/Garda that people power works and they can solve their own problems and thus by implication they are not really needed. Well clearly this couldn't be allowed and the State via the Garda I presume had to take control of the situation again. Since the state is unable to actually solve the drug problems, I assume that's why they reverted back to their previous existence. If this people power had not been challenged and the success allowed to continue, then people in other areas would have quickly become aware of what they can do for themselves and solve all kinds of problems. The whole thing could spread like wildfire. Next thing you know the State would have been shut out.

Can anyone who was involved substantiate this?

by Tahoma Wed Nov 12, 2003 20:41

"Well that's where you are wrong. It seems that there was a third way. Read closer, what I wrote yesterday - the answer is there. I could spell it out but I'm not sure Blockader would be too happy"

That is where YOU are wrong. Whenpapers are served and you are given a court date you MUST appear. If you do not the cops will be looking for you fairly sharpish. I've been involved in the anti bin tax campaign in all council areas and in every case there was NO OPTION about appearing in front of court once you were served with the relevent papers.

Now if you think that I am wrong, tell me more.

BTW
This whole thing about Joe Higgins and the SP being soft on gangs and pushers like the Westies is utter bollocks. anyone from Mulhuddart will tell you that Joe and the SP have an impecable record instanding up to these people.

by trotwatch Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:46

What has the SP done to make Dublin West/Mulhuddart a better place for those who live there? The anti-social and drug situation had gotten out of all control and they have said nothing about it nor, unlike in places like Finglas and Cabra and North Inner City, have they fought for the practical measures at Council level that can improve the landscape for people, screen out scum moving in, and close off some of the rat-runs and derelict sites they use. Or is that reformism? Maybe they think that the more miserable people are the more likely they will be to realise that the SP is the panacea for all their problems.

by trotwatch Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:48

Critics of the SP are just as entitled to attribute questionable motives to the actions of the SP as they are only too happy to do in relation to others. So, why don't they challenge the "Westies"???

by Joe Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:12

Janus I think you are misreading what I was trying to say on the 'role' of the IRA in anti-heroin stuff. Again the point is not what the IRA did but their very existance putting limits on how dealers could respond. I'm not saying this made it safe for activists or that intervention followed every bit of intimidation. I'm simply not convinced that without the IRA threat some dealer would not have shot a couple of activists as a 'lesson'.

I'm not a fan of the SP (see what I said about them over March 1st for instance) but I think the whole 'they must be in league with the westies' attack is stupidly counter productive as a much simpler explanation exists. Its all the more nasty to be posting this stuff in a thread about one of their members being jailed. How you you react to the Sindo publishing such crap?

The SP are not beyond 'community vigilantism' forms of politics. I remember getting a great laugh a few years back out of an article in the Voice explaining how they were picketing a shop that was taking butter vouchers (you used to get them on the dole, they gave about 70p off a pound of butter) for alcohol purchases. They were also involved in some of the more suburban anti-heroin marches.

For those interested to the background of this discussion you'll find some WSM articles on 'Community organising and the Dublin drugs (heroin) crisis' at http://struggle.ws/wsm/drugs.html

by History Maker Fri Nov 14, 2003 19:35

I've been doing a bit of research. It seems that the last serving member of the UCD Academic Council to be in jail for political reasons was Prof. Eoin MacNeill (leader of the Irish Volunteers). If David Murphy is elected on Wednesday to the UCD Academic Council he will be the first member of the UCD Academic Council to get his/her position while in prison.

by SU member - Free David Murphy Campaign Sat Nov 15, 2003 01:33

There will be a fundraiser gig for David Murphy in the Student Bar in UCD on Tuesday the 25th of November. A number of bands have agreed to play.

David's court appearence and fine costs in the region of €1,500, any funds raised at the gig will go to the legal fund.

Tickets will be available at the door and will also be available at a reduced rate beforehand. I will post the details when it's all finalised. Even if you can't make it along on the night but would like to show your solidarity I'd encourage you to buy a ticket anyhow as a donation to the fund.

by Isaac B Sat Nov 15, 2003 12:36

Methinks if the SP were in league with the Westies, perhaps they might still be hanging on to a few (possibly burnt out) bin trucks in Dublin West.

by trotwatch Sat Nov 15, 2003 20:00

And I make no apologies whatsoever for saying this the only good trot is a dead fucking trot. Solution: Kill all trots. Maybe Higgins' mates in the westies will decide they've had enough of his socialist shite.

by trotwatch watcher Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:32

Trotwatch you are a fucking troll.

If not you are the one that deserves to be shot. I would have you against the wall for advocating such a punishment for ANY strand of the workers movement Anarchist, SWP, SP, WCA, ISM... Saying soemthing like that is an utter disgrace.

by googlegallian Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:35

Thge SP have challenged the organised gangs in the Mulhuddart area.

It is absolutly off the wall to think that one TD in an area can singlehandly smash a gang. Gangland exists because of massive poverty and alienation which is ultimately brought about by capitalism, are people saying that Joe Higgins is a sell out because he has not ended poverty and alienation?

Maybe people should look at the way Joe Higgins has stood up against the bin tax and for taxation justice. Unlike the troll and virtual activists on this site.

by Bored - All of us who are bored by Trots Mon Nov 17, 2003 14:40

Joe goes to jail for taxation justice, eh? Or Joe goes to jail on what he (incorrectly and boy does he now know it) thought would be a populist issue for the next elections? Hmm let me think! Why have'nt Joe, Clare et al gone to jail for social justice issues? Less votes, less easy publicity maybe?

by sp member Tue Nov 18, 2003 01:15

If the SP were only involved in this for votes why have they put quite a large amount of work building up the anti bin tax campaign in areas in which they are not standing?

Why are members of the SP who are not standing in elections going to prison?

Why did they advocate quite militant tactics in Fingal which lost support they have in more posh areas. This will lose the SP at least one seat in the Castleknock ward.

Do you really think that the SP would incur massive legal fees and fines? surely it is money that you need to fight an election, if the SP were only interested in the elections they would have not broken the 'law', would not have blockaded and would have essentially taken SF's position.

This is cynics having a go at the SP and is just stupid

by CWIsling Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:52

"This will lose the SP at least one seat in the Castleknock ward."

Come again. I wasn't aware that the SP had a seat in Castleknock. You can't lose what you do not have. To the best of my knowledge you lost your deposit here last time out. More of the famous SP rewriting of history then.

As for the rest of the guff, you belong to a Leninist party (you are aware of that - aren't you?). What individual members do - is good for the centre. The fact that members not up for election go down is all factored in. And anyway five SP members (six of you include Dermot and lets face it you don't) have gone to jail. And from my reckoning four are going for election of one sort or another. Eighty per cent is a quite a high return.

by Sp member Tue Nov 18, 2003 19:18

THe SP do not have a seat in Castleknock ward but if you look at the support there from the last election it would have indicated a definite seat in that area in the local elections. Now there is a serious question mark over that seat. The last local elections were in 1999, the SP support in West Dublin has increased a good bit since then, in 99 Joe Higgins was only just after getting into the Dail, so I would not read too much into the 99 result in Castleknock. The 2002 results are far more accurate.

BTW
The Castleknock area is not just CAstleknock, it includes large areas of Blanchardstown.

With all your vitriol against 'evil leninism' shows that you are drunk with blind ideological hatred of the SP. You can't see that the SP do have a large working class support and that they palyed a genuinly decent role in the bin tax. YOu can't bring yourself to commending the SP members who have gone to prison, whether or not you agree with the SP on Lenin the fact that you can't see that they took a principled stand says alot about you.

Now answer the questions, or will you just avoid them like the troll that you are. Why has the SP incurred massive fines if they were only interested in elections? Why have the SP put a large amount of work into areas in which they do not intend to stand in the elections?

by CWIsling Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:37

Steady on old chap.

It was you who said that the SP would probably lose a seat in Castleknock. I pointed out that you don't have one to start with. In the last local election the SP got 253 votes with 2.93% of the vote losing their deposit. If you have tallies that deal with the Castleknock vote after the introduction of electronic voting well then I'd love to see the figures.

Like a lot SP members you have invented a new language. One that focuses on a certain type of victimhood. I merely pointed out the facts about the Castleknock ward. It would seem that you have a problem dealing with realities.

Again I never said that Leninism was evil, I just pointed out its nature. It was you who played the martyr card and all I did was pointed out that four of the five current members who were jailed are running for one form of election or another.

As to the jailings I commend all of those who stood up for what they belived in.
As to the fines it was my understanding that it was the respective campaigns which were to foot the bill. But as I have always thought the SP sees itself as the campaign perhaps the reason why you conflate the party with the campaign.

It might be useful if SP members don't rush into blind statements of defending the one true party and perhaps analyse the criticism. You only help to add the hostility already felt towards you.

by CWIsling Wed Nov 19, 2003 13:22

"Why have the SP put a large amount of work into areas in which they do not intend to stand in the elections?"

Which areas are you referring to?

by sp member Wed Nov 19, 2003 21:13

You've obviously never heard of canvass returns. Joe Higgins did get a very good vote out of the Castleknock ward.

Most of South Dublin and Dun Laoghaire Rathdown county council areas is one example of areas in which the SP have done a large amount of work which they are not standing candidates. The only wards the SP are standing in the next elections in these counties are Tallaght Central and Dundrum.