Fresh developments in Bin Tax Campaign

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Thu Oct 30, 2003 16:13

thanks for the good news cheks

I'm interested in one quote from the RTE account

"South Dublin County Council also said it would be removing bins from several thousand people who had not paid waste charges in Lucan, Clondalkin and Templeogue."

SEVERAL THOUSAND PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT PAID THE CHARGE just in THREE AREAS by their own admission - and yet we are told that over 90% have paid in statement after statement by the council

meantime there are two "packaging protests" coming up in Dun Laoghaire on Saturday

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61879 (dundrum)

conor

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61898 (dun laoghaire town)

Conor

by bini Thu Oct 30, 2003 16:38

Lets just hope that the union leaders don't sell out again and do a dirty deal with managment to avert a strike.

by Janus Thu Oct 30, 2003 17:05

Having been on strike a couple of times in the past, I can assure comrades it is an unpleasant experience at the best of times. If a strike can be avoided, it should be.

This is not to support selling-out. If the choice is between selling-out and picket lines then you'll find me clutching my homemade placard with the best of them.

But if a dispute between workers and management can be resolved without recourse to strike action to the satisfaction of workers, that's a good thing.

The instinctive desire of people on the left to strike at the drop of a hat is a bit unrealistic. Especially coming into Winter and Christmas. The solution to every little problem, is not a national general strike.

I do support strike action in this dispute btw, I was merely making the point that a strike is not always the answer in response to the last poster.

by working class Thu Oct 30, 2003 17:14

Janus,
Obviously it's better not to go on strike. What is being said though is that the union leaderships will probably propose a deal that gives in to the council in some way. Workers need to re learn the old slogan of the Trade Union movement when going into talks with the bosses, "Not a second on the day not a penny off the pay". Anything less should not even be entertained.

by swapper Thu Oct 30, 2003 17:19

I noted that there were no members of the SWP on todays blockades (correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I saw and what other I was talking to saw). The only organised groups that I saw or heard of were the SP, WCA and WSM.

If there were some there it was nothing more that a token presence.

It would seem that the SWP are now trying to scupper the anti bin tax campaign by arguing against and not supporting blockades. How can they do this and then claim to be standing 'anti bin tax' candidates in the SIPTU and local elections? The SWP are only using this campaing to try and win some cheap publicity and profile for their people, as soon as the campaign get tough and the cops and courts are on their backs they chicken off. What's the difference between the SWPs attitude to the bin tax and the attitude of SF and Labour?

by FYI Thu Oct 30, 2003 17:20

P6, bottom left corner, an ad taken out by DunL-Rathdown CC:
Refuse Collection
We wish to thank the majority of householders who have paid their Refuse Charges and who help to sustain this service. To date €12,800,000 or 95% of this year's estimate has now been collected.
Following the issue of final warnings to defaulters by post some weeks ago, Dunlaoghaire-Rathdown County Council has from 28th October, 2003 commenced a programme of discontinuing its refuse collection service to a minority of householders who are defaulting on their waste charges.
householdrs who have not paid their charges and do not qualify for a waiver and leave their refuse on the streets or public areas will be deemed to be in breach of the Litter Pollution Acts of 1997 and 2003 and could face fines of up to €3,000"

Does anyone know when the 2003 changes went through and what they are?

by Observer from the left Thu Oct 30, 2003 17:22

Corpo workers have driven past (through?) our blockades this morning. Whatever about the unrelated dispute re Oxigen (which I suspect will be fudged somewhere)the workers are not going to strike over the bin tax, particularly before Xmas. Without the support of the workers, this phase of the struggle is over and we should now concentrate on running candidates in the local elections on an anti-bin tax/corrupt govt platform. Blockades etc. from now on will resented by the public and undermine our profile/support.

by DLR resident Thu Oct 30, 2003 17:22

If they only collected €12m and there is still about €20m outstanding how is it that they claim 96% payment. These are blatent lies. Non paymeny is still in a majority in DLR.

by DLR resident Thu Oct 30, 2003 17:24

If DLR have 96% payment, which I suspect is higher than the ESB, Eircom and RTÉ get why do they even need to implement non collection?

by Litter Act 2003 Thu Oct 30, 2003 17:29

Minister Gallagher introduces Tougher Litter Laws


Mr. Pat the Cope Gallagher, T.D., Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, today (15th September 2003) announced the commencement of Part 4 of the Protection of the Environment Act 2003 dealing with litter.


Part 4 of the 2003 Act amends section 19 and substitutes new sections for sections 21 and 24 of the Litter Pollution Act 1997, to give effect to commitments in the Government's Litter Action Plan to strengthen the existing litter laws. These provisions, which come into effect on 1 October 2003:


increase the fine for summary conviction for litter offences from €1,904 to €3,000, which is the upper limit of fine for offences heard in the District Court; the maximum daily fine for continuing offences also increases to €600 – more than a fourfold increase on the previous level of fine,

introduce conviction on indictment for litter offences, with a maximum fine of €130,000 and €10,000 per day for continuing offences,


widen local authority powers to make local byelaws, and


impose greater restrictions on advertising materials in public places, including a ban on the placement of advertising flyers on vehicles.


The new measures will enable local authorities to more effectively enforce the litter laws.

by Ray Thu Oct 30, 2003 17:31

I suspect they're doing their usual fudge. If there is 50 million to be collected, but they say they only expect to collect 10 million, then if they collect 9 million they can point to their great success in collecting 90% of their estimate. Naturally, the press will report the 90% success, and not the 80% failure, because journos are lazy and will print the press release without doing the math for themselves.

by Michael Turley Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:07

Has not yet become apparent that the waste management charges dispute is over? The futile "anti-bin tax" campaign will be remembered as a squalid attempt by a small number of radical groups with tiny electoral support manipulating the easily led.

Why are there no demonstrations about the cutbacks in CE schemes - surely an issue which really does effect the more vulnerable in society?

by Nitpicker Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:10

Swapper is correct re the SWPs involvement. Just one small point, as well as the other groups he mentions, Irish Socialist Network members were involved in organising and participating in the Collins Ave. blockade. The ISN has been centrally involved along with the SP and SF in organising the anti-bin tax campaign in Finglas. Three ISN members have already been in the High Court for protesting, with two serving a fortnight in jail during October. In fact methinks Finglas is a good model with the campaign being organised jointly by these orgs. in a non-sectarian way. This in turn has ensured broad participation with a large element of activists who belong to no political organisation being centrally invollved.

by Michael Turley Hater Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:19

I find Michael Turley's positng very funny, especially since he a Fianna Fáil candidate in the upcoming elelctions.

I find his website very funny. I like his pic with Ahern- you gotta see it to believe it. For a greater laugh read his CV, all it has is the school he went to and that he went to trinners, then it mentions that he is a FF member. Michael, is your only acievement being in FF! All you can say for yourself is that you're in Bertie's Party and you went to a certain school!!

I hope you get hammered in the elections!

by Art Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:22

Michael Turley has a go at the CE cuts. They are cuts that YOUR pary implemented. If I vote for you in the elections YOU will vote for these cuts.

The Bin Tax will bring jobs cuts in the Council depots and it will mean a fall in working conditions for the workers that get to keep their jobs.

Michael Turley- you're a scumbag.

by Turdley watch Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:25

Ah that's not fair he also supports Leinster Rugby team and has issued press releases condeming the peasent bin protestors.

Damn Fine work I tell you!!

by Pettycoat Luce Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:27

Just a few points:

Reports from the blockade at the Collins Avenue bin depot today show that the bin workers most definitely support the anti bin tax protestors, even giving the protestors a round of applause.

The dispute over union reprentation at Oxigen only goes to prove the point of the anti bin tax campaign that if private operators take over the refuse collection service, then the jobs and conditions of the bin men will be undermined. The bin men are absolutely right to go on strike for the right to union reprentation - there can be no "compromise" on this right - either you have the right to union representation or you don't- so I don't know what you're getting at Janus.

Finally, Swapper, there were SWP members on the blockade of the Rathmines bin depot today!

by Yossarian Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:50

First of all, Chekov didn't suggest that the bin workers would strike over the bin tax - didn't you have to pass some civil service exams to get your job? What he said was "a victory in this [oxigen related] strike will really give the workers confidence to stand up to the council and refuse to implement non-collection". Repeat; "..refuse to implement non-collection". Also from Petticoat Luce: "Reports from the blockade at the Collins Avenue bin depot today show that the bin workers most definitely support the anti bin tax protestors, even giving the protestors a round of applause." So shit stirer observer, it appears that the campaign does have a degree of support from the workers and certainly cannot be considered over. Isn't it interesting when a stooge of the system suggests we should be standing candidates in the local elections as the way forward; it shows how useful these positions are for effecting significant change. Every minute spent promoting election candidates on whatever platform is time not spent organising and carrying out blockades, solidarity collections etc.
Now fuck off back down yer hole "observer from the left".

by Random Input Thu Oct 30, 2003 19:00

http://www.michaelturley.com/images/Taoiseach.jpg

talk about puke

Also, I have to say that his site is one of the worst I have ever seen in terms of layout and content (or rather the LACK of any content)

by Bin Laden Thu Oct 30, 2003 19:01

To the guards in Collin's Avenue. Before things sparked off only O'Brien at 6 foot looked like he was made of truck stopping stuff. However when things kicked off 5 foot tall McLouglin and Boyd showed they didn't get where they are today without knowing how to hold on to a bin truck for dear life!!

by Michael Turley Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:44

Thank you for your feedback. A couple of points:

1). Why do contributors who post personal abuse hide behind silly pseudonyms? I am not afraid to stand behind my comments, neither should you (if you believe your comments are valid).

2). I am a vocal critic of the cuts in CE schemes within Fianna Fáil as are all my colleagues in Dublin South East. Our criticism is likely to be many orders of magnitude more effective in effecting positive change on this and other matters than the rantings of an unpopular and dysfunctional grouping of SP/SWP/ISN/"What did the Romans ever do for us?" parties.

3). Fianna Fáil has consistently been the choice of the Irish people in the cities and in the country. How do you reconcile that fact with the illogical situation that Irish socialists/anarchists (who seem to claim that they have the interests of the people at heart) are, and will remain, very unpopular with those they claim to represent?

by Sean O'Dowd Fri Oct 31, 2003 13:19 Rathmines

Turley if you are elected you will vote for cuts, that's a fact. Every FFer in the country in history has done the same.

As for FF being the choice of the Irish people,
FF are at 30% in the latest opinion poll
In a recent opinion poll taken at the sme time 38% supported the tactics of the bin tax protesters, therefore more people support these tactics than FF.

FF were elected on the basis of blatent lies to the electorate. Remember the 'elimination of the waiting lists in 2 years'! or McCreevy stating that no cuts were planned whatsoever?! Of course within months FF were cutting left right and centre.

The fact is that a majority of people oppose the bin tax, including those who have paid. If this was not the case why have FF scrapped their plans for directly elected mayors? I'll tell you why, FF feared these elections turning into referenda on the bin tax which would have seen 4 SP or other anti bin tax people elected into mayor's position accross the city.

Turley, if you are so confident about people's support for bin tax and FF will you campaign for a local referendum on the bin tax for next June?

BTW
Turley you are a seriously pathetic creature, I've had a look at your website. It is a good example of how thin on the ground the establishment are that they are counting on creepy careerists like Turley as candidates in the local elections.

by David Fri Oct 31, 2003 13:28

The choice of the American people but does anybody believe that they have the interests of the ordinary american people at heart?
When you control the media you control the minds of the population. When you accept the lions share of all political donations you can launch much more manipulative election campaigns than any fringe political party, when you rely on tradition, on the older people voting for the same party because they always have, you don't even need to pretend that you're going to make their lives any better.
When you lie blantantly and consistantly on your election manifesto you don't need to worry about the facts getting in the way of a good photo opportunity and the public have 5 years to forget that they were taken for fools. (by which time you'll already have secured your guaranteed state pension)

by silly pseudonym Fri Oct 31, 2003 13:31

'Why do contributors who post personal abuse hide behind silly pseudonyms?'

Quite simply, people use pseudonyms because when we post under our own names we are subjected to defamation, abuse and impersonation

by Michael Turley Fri Oct 31, 2003 13:55

I fully support the bin tax because I believe it is fair. Everyone regardless of occupation or background has to pay for the waste they produce. This gives people an incentive to work. Simply taxing business or property developers to fund waste collection will only lead to redundencies and to housing shortages.

As for bin tax being unpopular, this is rubbish. Everyone I know is in favour of bin tax and pay it with pride. Most people are not scroungers and tax cheats.

I really do find it ironic that communists like the SP/SWP/ISN/Anarchists are defending tax evasion and freeloading by a small minority.

As for the local elections being a test for the bin tax's popularity. I'm sure it will be, I am confident that myself and other right thinking democrats will be returned without any problems.

by local resident Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:06

I've come accross some arrogant bastards in my time but Turley you really do take the biscuit.

I have a bloody good mind to print off what you said here and distribute it around your ward.

by Dom Foley Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:11 Islandbridge

"michael turley you're a scumbag", "you're a seriously pathetic creature", "michael turley hater" -jesus lads, what sort of world are we trying to build for our kids here?

We're talking about methods of raising cash to pick up litter, not murder or abuse or violent crime. Putting aside any opinions on policies etc, he does have a right to express a view and in fairness to the man, it's a brave step to include your website and contact details to a bunch of people with such passionately opposed views.

If we really believe that this issue is one that will affect Ireland's future, perhaps some serious political debate and economic arguments would be in order.

Have you never heard the quote, "I disagree with what you are saying, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" ? or are we all about building a dictatorship on this site?

by Katie - Personal Capacity Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:12

I must agree, the "rubbish" Michael Turley has just spouted is astounding. Although I shouldn't be surprised as this is the norm for FF.

Are you trying to deflect attention from the fact that privatising the bin collections will incur job losses?

by Michael Turley Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:12

"Quite simply, people use pseudonyms because when we post under our own names we are subjected to defamation, abuse and impersonation"

Which, sadly, is the level of debate that waste management protestors seem to prefer. I had mistakenly hoped that somebody with an alternative viewpoint might address my points intelliegently. Apart from somebody pointing out possible hypocrisy regarding my views on the CE cutbacks all I have encountered is unamusing vitriol and odd impersonation.

by Joe Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:19

Micheal you are indeed 'right thinking' but I'm not sure about the democrat bit.

And of course it is fair that Tony O'Reilly (worth 1300 million) should pay the same local tax as his bin man. Can I presume Finna Fail intend to extend this sort of 'fair taxation' policy to income tax as well. I'm sure Mr O'Reilly will be more then pleased and after all its him and his ilk that fund your party.

Now I know in the last local elections you 'democrats' forget to mention your support for the bin tax in your manifestos. I say forgot because otherwise I'd have to conclude that 'democracy' means no more than a choice of liars every few years. But be sure to mention this new 'fair taxation' policy this time around!

by Michael Turley Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:38

It seems that some of you in your haste to express self righteous indignation failed to notice that the Friday, Oct 31 2003, 12:55pm was an impersonation.

by Sean O'Quigley Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:43

Yeah right, stop trying to backtrack by claiming it was impersonation.I say lets use these quotes and send them round his council ward. Sure if the people of Dublin are 'right thinking' and are not 'scroungers' surely they would have no problem with you saying this about teh bin tax protesters.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Fri Oct 31, 2003 15:52

Just for what its worth - the SIPTU bin men are striking in the city area on nest Thursday (6th Nov) morning in support of Oiygen workers according to the indo -whether it'll make much difference to the campaign - doubt it but I'm sure we wish the Oxigen workers well in their union recognition dispute

Conor

by Monkman Fri Oct 31, 2003 16:19

Chekov is clearly the anti-christ and deserves to be treated as such. Here's your crown, your majesty.

by conor (wsm personal) Fri Oct 31, 2003 16:39

Ah now don't be giving him a swelled head

Conor

by pat c Fri Oct 31, 2003 16:45

chekov is only a minor demon; dont feed his delusions of grandeur!

by Monkman Sun Nov 02, 2003 16:11

Monkman shall not be silenced, nor shall he water down his original statements. Monkman stands by his claim that Chekov is the anti-Christ. Those that say he is but a minor demon have clearly fallen into the callous web of evil that surrounds the unmentionable one. Those that side with darkness should prepare for Monkmans wrath which shall be swift and unending.