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Anti Bin Tax Campaigns Statement

category dublin | bin tax / household tax / water tax | press release author Wednesday October 15, 2003 19:21author by Anti Bin Tax Campaign Report this post to the editors

Anti Bin Tax Campaigns Thank Bin Workers; Call for End to Non-Collection and Jailings

Joint Statement - 15th October 2003

· Dublin City Campaign Against the Bin Charges· Dun Laoghaire/ Rathdown Campaign Against Service Charges· South Dublin Campaign Against Refuse Charges· Fingal Anti Bin Tax Campaign

The bin depot blockades of the last 48 hours have put the issues of the unjust jailings and the Councils’ discriminatory non- collection policy firmly back onto the political agenda.

We wish to thank Dublin’s bin workers who showed their clear opposition to the jailings and to the policy of non-collection over the last 48 hours despite management bullying, payroll suspensions and threats to use private contractors.

Although depot blockades will not be organised again this week, the ability of anti bin tax campaigners and bin workers united to cause massive disruption to the service will be displayed again if the Councils’ policy of non-collection and the jailings don’t stop.

The ball is now clearly back in the court of the Government and the Councils. Estate blockades will, however, continue on a daily basis.

author by Cat-Ppublication date Wed Oct 15, 2003 20:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Green Finger!
by Mick Mc Wednesday, Oct 15 2003, 7:05pm

Thought you might be interested to learn that at a protest outside the SDCC offices on Monday evening,where a celebratory dinner was taking place, Green Party TD Paul Gogarty stuck his middle fingers up ( in a Liam Gallagher-type gesture) at protestors. He was not being abused himself , and this took place in front of several children, some under 5. Bin controversy aside, this is a bizarre, insulting and arrogant way for any elected representative to behave. I contacted the green party to complain, and they said they would ask Paul for his side of it. I'm still waiting, despite calling again today. Perhaps you all might have more luck extracting an excuse form this arrogant young this muppet, and wait for the elections. TD's salary has obviously gone to his head.

This was buried on an old thread h

author by Magspublication date Wed Oct 15, 2003 20:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Due to the absence of any other decent option I voted Green last time on the basis that they were the party I least disagreed with (and to keep the evil McDowell out, which did not work). This was a severe weakening on my refusals to vote many times before. Needless to say I will not vote Green again.

There was some creatureoid called Cllr Gerry Breen yapping on 5-7 Live today. I had not heard of this FG councillor before. He was saying that the laws are not half tight enough and the Guards should be forcing through the bin lorries at the pickets. If required the Guards should be deployed in large numbers to escort bin lorries in estates. Even the sleeveen RTE presenter has to ask would this not be a huge waste of Garda resources, given the crime situation, etc. Not at all, says Breen, not at all. Glimpses of the old Blueshirt showing there, I think.

author by ecpublication date Wed Oct 15, 2003 20:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mary harney today on the radio refused to rule out calling out the army if the situation escalates . . . She's a very angry mammy Harney(c.2003 osama is a mad ira cad)

author by Precision Manpublication date Wed Oct 15, 2003 20:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Rather than standing in front of trucks, would it not be more efficient to stage lie-down or "horizontal protests"? That way one person would take up more space than two, and they would find it harder to move us. It would also be more obvious that we are not being agressive, and are only interested in peaceful protest.

author by Jonahpublication date Wed Oct 15, 2003 21:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Just watching Paul Gogarty speaking on the Bin Charges in Leinster House.

He accuses the Socialist Party of being dishonest, or being scared to run for election on anything other than front campaigns (Mentioning anti-insurance specifically) and states that the SP won't amount to much because the rest of the party doesn't have the courage or intellectual ability of Joe Higgins.

What in the name of anything is this man up to? He's a wittering idiot at the best of time but after every other Independent TD, SF TD and even Labour TD have spoken with varying degrees of warmth about Higgins and Bin Tax protestors, Gogarty does the Government's job for him.

Greens....can't live with them, can't (Legally) hang them from trees.

author by sp mem.publication date Wed Oct 15, 2003 21:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

if thats how we are seen by the public and other parties we have to show them otherwise.

author by socialist party member (personal capacity)publication date Wed Oct 15, 2003 21:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I know this site is used by many green party members it would be interesting to hear what they think of paul gogartys views. Does paul reflect official green party positions?

Any takers?

author by a real greenpublication date Wed Oct 15, 2003 21:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

guess who will never be getting my vote ever again?

This is one Green denunciation too many for me.

author by Devotopublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 01:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So sad to think the Green Party have let Mags down and she won't be voting for them again. How tragic. On what basis did she vote for them in the first place. Allegedly because they were the least objectionable. Surely thats the catch cry of the middle classes Mags. The Greens are the "safe" option. Sure how could you object to them. Hardly the revolutionary republican socialist analysis you propagate through the pages of The Blanket and Forthwrite. But sure it was all a master plan to keep the dastardly McDowell out. Some might say the only way to keep the likes of McDowell out is the manner in which a former minister for justice of this state was dealt with. Not sure if your Green friends would support that type of direct action Mags.

author by Pat Mpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 01:46author email mullinpatrick at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

i hate 2 see fellow greens get injured by rant. if u want 2 know what gogartys story is, ask him yourself, could it have anything 2 do with him fuming at socialist party members saying he voted for the refuse charges when he didnt?

author by Paul G's fingerpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 01:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

does it give him the right to flip off a crowd of protestors, including kids?

Wasn't Gogarty the one who also 'lost it' at the Day X Dail blockade, and told the protesters to 'fuck off'?

Seems this man doesn't like blockades a'tall a'tall. Or maybe he suffers from Tourettes.

(I could be confusing him with Gold Cuffelinks though, but I'm pretty sure it was Gogarty)

author by Pat Mpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 02:25author email mullinpatrick at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

i was at one of the protests last March. not sure if this was the same, have just checked back on paul gogarty's comments and he had this 2 say .. cut and pasted..

"At this stage I had given the megaphone back. Then [the same individual] saw me talking to the Gardai and using the megaphone called me a "Green Party police officer" or something to that effect and a "political careerist" and "bureacrat". This pissed me off majorly so on the spur of the moment I retaliated, something I regret doing [and not something I would be politically proud of]. I gave him a finger sign because I had
no megaphone to talk back."

this is evidence that he must have done the same at the tallaght rally. but at the anti-war protest he retaliated to one person with a megaphone not the crowd so whats to say that a) someone said something to him and b) he retaliated to that someone specific..

as a green i agree he should keep his head, but he is on the right side, he spoke out against the war inside and outside teh dail and voted against shannon. i have met him a fair few times and he is warm in person, maybe crowds get 2 him. i would like 2 c what his speech last night was about because like i heard he is fuming at one or two politically ambitious socialists but has shared a platform with joe higgins on war and nice and they seemed to get on well

author by pat cpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

c'mon, he was annoyed at everyone at the dail protest because he couldnt get his petrol guzzling, air polluting car out. the guy is a complete opportunist, he claims on his own site that hes opposed to water charges but fails to mention that its green party policy to have water metered and charged for .

"Greens....can't live with them, can't (Legally) hang them from trees."

no, but you could spike the trees with biodegradable spikes so that next time they hug a tree they get impaled.

author by Magspublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

At last, I thought I was being deprived :) Someone who reads my scribblings :) Sad it is another wee anonymous troll though. Ah well...

Now lets see. I only agree with about 50% of what the Greens say. Before the last election they had not revealed that they had an anti-working class agenda no different from that of the other parties. And McDowell was not even in the Dail, let alone Justice Minister. John Gormley, who seems a decent enough guy the few times I have met him, had only beaten Jackboots by a handfull of votes the time before. So there you are.

Troll Deveto seems anxious to test my knowledge of history. Ok, so I reckon you are referring to that nice Mr Kevin O Higgins, who go his back in the 1920s. Do I win a prize??

author by stop the bin taxpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Wasn't Gogarty the TD who demanded that anti-war protesters outside the Dail should allow him out so he could drive home.

author by Jonahpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

His exact comments taken from the transcript, unavailable last night when I posted:

"...I disagree with the anti-bin charge campaign and the tactics of the Socialist Party members in providing misleading information about elected representatives to favour their own little election campaigns. They are very much afraid to put themselves forward as Socialist Party candidates. They would rather be insurance candidates or bin tax candidates. That is a mistake on their part, because if the rest of the members of the Socialist Party had the commitment and intellectual capacity of Deputy Higgins, they might go a very long way. Unfortunately, that is not the case, and the cream has very much risen to the top..."

author by .publication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

After listning to Michael Murphy on the radio I was quite impressed and given the opportunity I'd give him my vote if he was in the running!

On listening to Gogarty on the run up to the war at several protests this guy is obviously a careerist politick! I was there the day he ordered people to move away from blocking the Dail gates, it was embarassing to hear a guy who had been part of a protest moments before to then revert to telling people to get the f**k out of the way!

Nuff said!

author by galway residentpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The amount of abuse that the so-called socialists through at people who dont agree with their version of events (im think of that binned guy) and now they are crying that someone gave them the finger. grow up.

author by THpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Shame on the lies. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Gogarty asking that those who voted against the use of Shannon be let out because of meetings etc, he never said fuck off.

And to give an example of the selective socialists. There was a bit left out at the start that really praised Joe Higgins.

Here is the full transcript.

[I wholeheartedly support the motion. I regret the imprisonment of Deputy Joe Higgins and commend him for his unswerving stance on behalf of the less well off in society. Deputy Joe Higgins deserves full credit. Nobody can say he is not an honest person who is trying to help his constituents and the wider community. I disagree with the anti-bin charge campaign and with the tactics of the Socialist Party in providing misleading information about elected representatives to favour their own little election campaigns. They are very much afraid to put themselves forward as Socialist Party candidates. They would rather be insurance candidates or bin tax candidates. That is a mistake on their part, because if the rest of the Socialist Party had the commitment and intellectual capacity of Deputy Joe Higgins, they might go a very long way. Unfortunately, that is not the case, and the cream has very much risen to the top. I regret the fact that Deputy Higgins, Councillor Daly and the others were incarcerated. I do not think that breaking the law and being in contempt of court should go unpunished, but it sends out the wrong message when others have received far lesser sentences for far greater crimes. I want to point that out.

I also want to say, as Deputy Gormley did, that a fairer system whereby those who recycle are rewarded and those who do not are penalised is the way to go. It is something that the representative for the EU Environment Commissioner said to me at the National Forum on Europe. A flat tax is the worst option. One is better off having an income tax system than a flat tax, but the best option is to allow each household a certain amount free, obviously with waivers for those not in a position to pay and free tags for those who are less well off. However, ultimately it should be based on rewarding those who wish to recycle and making those who throw everything into their bin pay for the privilege of polluting.

Regarding the rest of the motion, my own constituency is shared with the Tánaiste, and it is in north Clondalkin in particular that the cutbacks in the jobs initiative and community employment schemes have hit the hardest. I understand that the Tánaiste was due at a meeting organised by actions against cuts in community services on Friday. She cancelled that meeting or was not able to attend. As a result, none of the other Deputies was able to go to it. I tabled God knows how many questions about Neilstown, Quarryvale, Rowlagh, Ronanstown and all the areas in north Clondalkin affected by the cuts. The response was that the questions were not in order and that it was a matter for FÁS. Who the hell passes the buck to FÁS except the Tánaiste? The Tánaiste has the power to say what community employment schemes will be like in the future. She is passing the buck and hiding behind an organisation that clearly does not want to have community employment schemes but in its actions has provided a much needed, even vital community service.

I will sum up because of the time factor and say that I also agree with the motion regarding the effects on those on vocational training schemes such as Youthreach. Last but not least, if there is to be a tax, the Minister should ensure that it is equitable and that income tax is shifted towards taxes on the user and polluter where possible but that the poorest of our society are not penalised. We currently have a situation where those at the very top, the tax evaders and tax exiles, are the ones who make the money, while the ordinary PAYE worker has to suffer and struggle on. That is why we have the bin charge protest. It is not because of the bin charge itself, because there is a fairer system which the majority of people favour, but because there is huge anger and outrage about this uncaring and incompetent Government which has been focused on the bin tax issue. The Minister should cop on.]

author by anti-war activistpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 16:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

the fact is that he did say the exact words "fuck off", which I believe he even admitted to on Indymedia (or in an email that was published on indymedia).

Anyone who was there, there were about 50 of us, will tell you that. They can't ALL be evil socialist types. In fact, I think there were only about 15 SY members there, the rest were all CW or indy's (the SWP had fucked off at that stage).

Anyway, do you not find it strange that a green was telling people to move so that he could get his CAR out?

author by matt (not a Green)publication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 17:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What the fuck do the SP want? Paul Gogarty is a GREEN and is totally consistent within that party on their policy issues including the bin charges. He was one of a small group of SF, Green and Independent TDs who supported a motion in favour of Higgins and against Govt cuts. I know SF and the Greens and some of the Indos had difficulties with the part on Higgins - for example it not mentioning the other people in jail - but they put that aside. Which is more than Comrade Higgins would and has done in a similar situation. But that is the difference between mature radical political activists and sectarians who are more obesessed with scoring points off those closest to them than in achieving anything for those they claim to represent. And it is not confined to the SP. Mags of the so-called Working Class Action ( exactly what proportion of the 'Working Class' do they represent I wonder???) makes a smart arse comment about voting for the Greens last time because she disagreed with them less than anyone else!! We know the real reason though. It was because she above all didn't want Sinn Féin to win a seat. And its the same at the protests. Fighting like fucking kids over microphones and speaking rights and only mentioning your own members! Next time have a look around and see the Branch men laughing at you.

author by anti-war activistpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 18:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The only comments by SPers on this tread amounted to three lines, saying 'we'll have to do something about our image' (i assume that was sarcasm) and another asking a simple question for Greens who use indymedia to voice their opinions.

Yet in the same posting you accuse Joe Higgins of 'sectarian point scoring'. Do you not see the irony?

Deriding the size of Mags' organisation is just childish. WCA are a committed group, and are active on many many issues in Dublin. How many are you active on? (and Mags et al, keep those reports coming!). I don't agree with Mag's republican tendencies, but I'd rather debate the issue in a civil manner than simply say "na na na na WCA are small and therefore irrelevant" which is what your post is implying.

As for SP members running under 'front' names, as far as I'm aware, no member of the SP has ever stood under anything other than the SP banner. The MiJAG candidate (David Greene I think his name was) was not (to the best of my knowledge)a member of the SP, and anyone who runs in the locals as an "anti-bin tax campaigner" I'm sure will not be a member of the SP, as the SP will use their own name, and they would be stupid not to. If nothing else, it makes total political sense as the SP have been on the nations lips for the last month, why would they ruin that publicity by promoting their candidates as somehow 'independent'?

Well done to all involved in the campiagn, socialists, anarchists, rogue labourites, independents, shinners, wca and of course the (extra)ordinary people that are standing up against this government.

author by Mick Mcpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 19:53author email mcdonnellmick at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

Firstly, I'm not a member of ANY party, socialist or otherwise. Secondly, there were 75 people who saw him do this gesture, presumably to antagonise them. Others heard him swear at us, but I couldn't hear what he was saying, so I didn't report that to you guys. He replied to an e-mail from another non-political protestor, saying he made no gesture, and that we should " read between the lines". Now,who do I belive, him or my own eyes?? He's an embarrassment. Can anyone shed any light on when he's supposed to have stuck his tongue out at Bertie?

author by Mags - WCApublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 19:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It is nice to really make it. The definition of a proper leftie faction seems to be to be the subject of abuse on Indymedia. I will pass on the word to the other member (ha!).

Oh well, just off to the picket at the 'Joy. Hope to see some of youse there.

author by ecpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 20:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

wouldn't it be nice to have a chatroom as part of the site - this gets like being in a maze with many others and shouting over the hedges at ppl you know are there - without ever getting to just stop and say hello

author by comment loverpublication date Thu Oct 16, 2003 20:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

the 'latest comments' section is the best addition to this site.

makes life much easier.

author by Pat Mpublication date Fri Oct 17, 2003 02:48author email mullinpatrick at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

TH you are so right! i c distortions and untruths still being peddled that needed sorting. 2 bad. today checked internally with party and in clondalkin... fact is at tallaght gogarty made the gesture towards a member of the socialist party with a megaphone who had shouted out loudly that paul gogarty voted for the charges.. when in fact he didnt... no gesture towards anyone else, or kiddies,

after finding this out can c exactly why gesture was made.. arrogant? indignant more likely

as for being a political opportunist he spent years working as an activist and suffered money wise and job wise asa result. big deal you say but he hasnt sold out. did you see the car he drives. 95 or 96 seat ibiza. and he stood for election first in 1990, if he was an opportunist he would have joined fianna fail instead of us greenies. i was happy to nominate him to stand for election in our area adn will do so again.. and thousands of people in clondalkin and lucan will vote for him again gladly because he pulls no punches

the greens all sign a pledge and like joe higgins with sp give thousands every year to the green party, so give the guy a break and go after the ones cheating the country out of millions

author by alan partridge - a-ha!publication date Fri Oct 17, 2003 04:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i certainly hope so.

author by Januspublication date Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

In general, I like Greens, they're kind of hard not to like. It's a party made up of Ned Flanders types, trying to do good in a bumbling, occasionally irritating kind of way. Middle class debate society people who like trees. Nice chaps, bit daft but what can you do.

And then you have Paul Gogarty. The man is, let me be clear about this, an eejit. He is an eejit in the Dail, he is an eejit outside of it.

Here we have a man who will give the finger to SP people but put out his tongue at FF people. Well done Paul. Someone who will lecture anti-war protestors about the need to stop protesting in order to allow his mates to get out.

He once explained in a debate how he used to give away £20 notes for the purposes of spreading goodwill or something while behind him Seamus Healy, a man who has broken himself working for the working class in Tipperary stared in bewilderment at a man who had so many £20s he could give them away.

As for suffering jobwise, he is a careerist, after a place in Leinster House like most of the rest of them. And being a member of the Greens isn't like being in the SP or SF, no-ones going to fire you for it. I was laid off on two occasions because at the time I was a SF member, my boss was informed and I was fired. Don't you dare talk to me about suffering jobwise, Greens don't have that to deal with, thousands of comrades, including ones on Indymedia do.

Green party TDs do give thousands to their parties, but they earn tens of thousands. Do not compare them to Joe Higgins. Joe gives everything but the average industrial away and he's a fucking diamond of a fella for doing it. Same with the Shinners. I KNOW the Greens aren't doing that. And yet they, and Gogarty is an example, will lecture people about the pay rises they get while pocketing them. Let the Greens take what Higgins takes and then I'll be impressed.

Gogarty says he was giving the fingers to an SP man because of what they was saying? If it was Cuffe, Gormley, Ryan etc. I'd believe them. But Gogarty is a fool and just the type to give the fingers to activists because he's bored, let alone his political beliefs, which frankly, I've seen no evidence of politics in him.

He is a muppet, and he makes the Green party, a generally nice harmless bunch of people in general, look like idiots.

Pulls no punches? He pulls no punches because he never throws any. He is an embarrassment to the Green party and to the left in general.

author by sp member - sppublication date Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Joe H. was elected standing for the sp in our name, so was clare daly. We have stood in elections in our own name since the socialist party was founded. Before as militant we would have stood as labour party candidates, as we were a faction in the labour party. We have stood in an anti water charge alliance but also under our own name. and in the next locals we will again stand in our own name.

author by dgpublication date Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Paul is also a slob who leaves others to clean up messes he makes, which is not a very environmentalist thing to do, is it?

author by sp member (personal capacity)publication date Sat Oct 18, 2003 16:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The green party seems to have missed the point about the present situation.
Saying a few nice things about Joe is grand but what is needed is,

Full support for all prisoners including a call for their immediate release.

An end to non collection of bins.

An end to bin taxes.

Lifting of the threat to public service bin collection.

Development of a sound waste management policy.

These are the points that need to be raised in the Dail by TDs from all parties. Comments from the greens would be welcome

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