Fine Gael senator describes anti war protesters as 'Fascist'

by ipsiphi iosaf Thu Apr 03, 2003 14:58

known as the upper house of the Oireachtas is little discussed and owes much to the Fascist constitution of Mussolini.
De Valera who wrote the Constitution of Ireland published in 1936, used several fascist models of "corporate state" participation.
This allows for appointment of failed politicians to the country's legislature.
Since 1936 many of those therefore with key responsibility for reform and rejection of legislation and law in Ireland have owed that privelage to the two political parties.
Fianna Fail the party of De Valera is known as beig one of the most corrupt political parties in Europe. It's ex-leader Haughey was known to systematically accept bribes.

The other party in Ireland Fine Gael founds it's roots in various fascist groupings which gave financial and political support to European fascists including Franco.

i could go on....

by Khalid Farouk Thu Apr 03, 2003 15:06

I know all this, I may not be originally be from Ireland but I don know the basics of Irish history I have lived here for many years

by PO Thu Apr 03, 2003 15:39

The UCD branch of Fine Gael has recently established together with a few people from Fianna Fáil the 'UCD Pro Liberation Society'. They are asking people to join to show their support for the war on terror.

Leading member of FG in UCD John Harvey recently ran in the SU elections on a programme of bringing in corporate education. He is also rumoured to be the founder of the 'pro liberation society'. Ross Higgins (UCD FG) is also thought to be a sympathiser of this group.

This party are sick.

by Alex - Young Fine Gael Thu Apr 03, 2003 17:18

Typical, stupid, unfounded comments that are always found on this site when FG are mentioned. Why don’t you have a look at the FG position on this war? FG statements in Dáil Éireann? Or are you afraid to look at what FG represents TODAY, as it will conflict with your little notion that they are the evil, right wing of Irish politics, QED. Wake up!

It’s respect for politics; a belief that politics works that is really missing on this site. It’s great protesting outside Dáil Éireann; you know in your heart of hearts that it will achieve nothing, but it make you all feel better, and you look like you care, unlike us who want to kill people who do not agree with us. This type of dreamland logic makes me sick. I am not even going to bother justifying Fine Gael, because that’s what the electorate do at election time. And, despite our poor showing recently, people voted for us. Just because you don’t agree dosent make it wrong, or evil.

Fine Gael have always respected the role of law; be it the Gardai, Bunracht na hÉireann, or the UN. We are not changing now.

by Alex - Young Fine Gael Thu Apr 03, 2003 17:24

Gardaí did a good job policing Leinster House demonstration- Deasy
An Garda Síochana did a good job in policing the demonstration outside the Houses of the Oireachtas last night, despite some reports to the contrary, according to Fine Gael justice spokesperson John Deasy TD, today (Thursday).
"The Gardaí, and Leinster House security, should be complimented for the way they handled the demonstration outside Leinster House last night. They showed great restraint while facing down a crowd of hundreds of people, some of whom were intent on causing trouble.
"It is unacceptable that Gardaí were subjected to verbal abuse and intimidation while performing their duties; the protection of Leinster House and the upkeep of public order, no matter how some members of the Oireachtas may try to defend it."

by FG watcher Thu Apr 03, 2003 17:36

If FG are against the war why are your members condemning the protest?

If FG are against the war why have your party not joined the anti war demos?

Why did a whole chunk of FG backbenchers vote for the use of Shannon by US military and why did many cllrs support the war also.

FG are not against this war your actions have shown this. You take a nominal anti war position to appear to be in opposition to this government. If you were in government now you would be backing up Bush just like FF-PD are now.

Everybody can see your party is not sincere in any way.

if you have such a respect for the constitution what about our rights to protest? what about the rights of TDs to be free from hinderence by the Gardaí in the environs of Leinster House? These are in the constitution.

By the way you joined the wrong party Mr Young Bloods FG, if you want a career you should have joined FF Labour of the Greens. FG are dead.

by Dan - SA Thu Apr 03, 2003 17:43 rogerprotzlives at yahoo dot co dot uk

After claiming that FG is solidly anti-war you then quote
your oily young spokesman for injustice John Deasy who makes
Kevin Myers look like a pinko anti-imperialist when it comes
to slavish devotion to the American "way of life" (whatever the hell
that is). Enda Kennys attempt to fashion an anti-war speech was embarrassing:
"we should oppose this war because Kim Jong Il will be angry." He gave
the PDs the chance to score their single valid point during last weeks debate.
Brilliant work. God, what a fucking twat!

John Harvey and Ross Higgins, the "stars" of UCD FG, are apparently
behind this "pro-liberation" society. I would have thought it was a joke
but doubt that either of them is capable of what we earthlings call
humour.

Apparently protesting is a waste of time. Well, tell that to all the American
blacks who can vote and go to university because of some "futile" protests in the sixties.
And what has Fine Gael ever done, exactly? Except bore everyone?

At least FF and the PDs have a reason to exist. Theres obviously a niche for one hard-right
doctrinaire Pinochet-loving party and one gombeen man pseudo-nationalist cute hoor
"movement" to cream off jobs and donations for the boys. But Fine Gael is just a joke. Except that
it isnt funny. Which is kind of funny in itself.

by RP Thu Apr 03, 2003 17:51

FG are a party that is in bits, you are seen as boring ineffective gobshites. The party is in so much crisis that the bourgeoisie do not see FG as a party capable of being an alternative government. I predict we could see the Irish bosses come behind the Labour party. Just watch this space.

by Alex - Young Fine Gael Thu Apr 03, 2003 17:51

Well well, Fine Gael are dead, are they? Frankly, as long as FG remain a party of principal, I don’t care how many seats they have, because with out that, you are not a party at all. FG is not a careerist party, of have you not noticed. There is really only one of those in Ireland.

There is dissent in FG on the war, yes of course, but it’s by people who believe it is in our national interest to support the war. I don’t agree with this, neither does the leadership. I believe that that is a narrow view of what national interest is, and frankly, rights out weigh this. We are not an anti-war party, or pacifists, not by a long shot. If this war had the backing of the international community, or a clear achievable objective, well then, we would have supported it. But it does not, and FG does not support it at all. Read the statements of Gay Mitchell & Enda Kenny.

This is why I am in Fine Gael. Because its a party of equality of opportunity; creating a fair and caring society; removing barriers to equal opportunity; engaging everybody in democracy.

It’s a parry of enterprise and reward; encouraging initiative, innovation, investment and self-reliance; preserving, enhancing and sharing prosperity

It’s a parry of security; building a safe society by protecting citizens and enforcing the law; strengthening families and fostering communities.

It’s a party of integrity; being truthful and courageous in what we do; promoting and upholding both the rights and responsibilities of people.

Lastly, it’s a party of hope; promoting a shared vision of a confident and sustainable future for Ireland at home and internationally; building an Ireland of excellence and ambition.

by ahlicks Thu Apr 03, 2003 18:11

John Bruton is ok and spoke well and passionately on recent tv programmes against the war

by You can call me AL Thu Apr 03, 2003 18:36

Well at least Fine Gael is consistent. Give them that. They are the law and order party and what went on outside the Dáil certainly wasn't law and order.

That’s the thing about the 'peace movement' that has prevented it from reaching the great heights of 150,000 people marching together again.

Why?

Because the 'peace movement' does not follow its own doctrine. It does not demonstrate peacefully and provides inherent contradictions. This prevents it from getting more mainstream support. It’s constantly hijacked by others who have another agenda.

The 'peaceful demonstration' outside the Dáil is just another item of non-peaceful behaviour by a section of the 'peace movement.'

Well done Fine Gael for sticking up for what you see and not always believing the propaganda that is fed to us by sections of the peace movement.

by You can call me AL Thu Apr 03, 2003 18:37

Well at least Fine Gael is consistent. Give them that. They are the law and order party and what went on outside the Dáil certainly wasn't law and order.

That’s the thing about the 'peace movement' that has prevented it from reaching the great heights of 150,000 people marching together again.

Why?

Because the 'peace movement' does not follow its own doctrine. It does not demonstrate peacefully and provides inherent contradictions. This prevents it from getting more mainstream support. It’s constantly hijacked by others who have another agenda.

The 'peaceful demonstration' outside the Dáil is just another item of non-peaceful behaviour by a section of the 'peace movement.'

Well done Fine Gael for sticking up for what you see and not always believing the propaganda that is fed to us by sections of the peace movement.

by Alan - SWP Thu Apr 03, 2003 19:09

They came out of the BLUESHIRTS - A FACIST ORGANISATION.
Obviously the FGers want to forget where they came from.

by Badman Thu Apr 03, 2003 19:56

It's a movement against this war. I like war. Class war. Looking forward to seeing ye through the crosshairs, blueshirt scum.

by Alex - Young Fine Gael Thu Apr 03, 2003 20:03

There you go, threatening, and you call us fascists! I can tolerate difference, the fact that people do not agree with me, or agree with FG. Guess what, its called politics!

by bertie a Thu Apr 03, 2003 20:21

You peace lovers are revolting fenian bastards and wog loving scum, you should be all shot or put in special camps, to be processed. How dare you upset Mr Bush and our holy sovereign Tony blair, stop it now. There's something to be said for euthanisia, in the case of revolting pensioners. Stop it, Sheena Mcmahon, gardai wife traitor you deserve what your husband gave you, you cheeky ungrateful rabbel rousing bitch.

by ipsiphi Thu Apr 03, 2003 21:07

i was explaining Fianna Fail and Fine Gael for non Irish readers of which there are many.
Many writers feel the first comment on a thread is written directly at them, that is not the way indymedia threads work.

and as for Alex, would you like it,petulant little ogra, that you are if I provided the link to the long long threads in which you said and I qoute
"we all want blueshirts".

you do understand that it is all still online don't you?
every last silly little comment and joke and defence of racist slurs and comments from the Fine Gael leadership.
The refusal to engage in a debate on homelessness in January, the abscence of a housing policy on your yfg website...
I could go on...

by Irish American Thu Apr 03, 2003 21:54

That was a good historical point you made. I never thought about it, but yes, the organization of the Seanad is a bit fascist.

You should amend the constitution and allow for direct election of Senators from all voters.

by King Mob Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:39

I swear your posts keep me going through the day...

I haven't laughed so hard since I saw that Norman Wisdom film

by misha Fri Apr 04, 2003 13:12

this is fun but surely nobody apart from oddballs and careerists could take FG seriously. It is good to see them doing so badly especially in Dublin.

by Khalid Forouk Fri Apr 04, 2003 15:40

YFGer SAID
"Well well, Fine Gael are dead, are they?"

Yes they are dead. They do not exist as an organisation on the ground in Dublin. They have not got a new layer of youth to take over their party. Quite frankly the careerists are no longer going to FG as there is no career in them.

"FG is not a careerist party, of have you not noticed. There is really only one of those in Ireland."

No FG is a careerist party. And there are more than one careerisit party in Ireland. I would say that FF, PD, FG, Labour and even some elements of SF and the GP are careerists.

"We are not an anti-war party, or pacifists, not by a long shot."

Either am I or the parties that are leading the anti war movement.

"If this war had the backing of the international community, or a clear achievable objective, well then, we would have supported it."

So if the rotten and corrupt African dictatorships and the right winger Chirac supported this war FG would too? I thought you were a party of prnciple??! Surely if you are against the war you should be against it whether or not the security council back it or not.

What's this about an achievable objective?? Surely the US conquering of Iraq is very achievable given the massive military might of the US army?

"FG is a party of equality of opportunity; creating a fair and caring society; removing barriers to equal opportunity; engaging everybody in democracy."

Thats just a load of crap copied and pasted from some manifesto that these parties produce every once and a while. Your parties election promises mean nothing. You have a long record of saying one thing prior to the election and another thing when and if in power.

"It’s a parry of enterprise and reward; encouraging initiative, innovation, investment and self-reliance; preserving, enhancing and sharing prosperity"

ie your a right wing neo liberal party.

"It’s a parry of security; building a safe society by protecting citizens and enforcing the law; strengthening families and fostering communities."

ie you believe in the right for the Gardai to be strong and impose their will in working class estates. It also means you will always unconditionally support the Gardaí. The family bit means that you are opposed to single mothers, homosexuals or anyone that goes against the capitalist model of the nuclear family. 'Fostering communities' this based on the religious model of community I would say.

"It’s a party of integrity; being truthful and courageous in what we do; promoting and upholding both the rights and responsibilities of people."

Integrity, truth??! What about councillor Cosgrave and LOwry, your party is just as corrupt given the chance.

Courage?! what about the courage your party showed when given the oppurtunity to join the anti war protests and protect elderly and disabled people against Garda thugs?

"Lastly, it’s a party of hope"

You need to be given the state of your party!!

"promoting a shared vision of a confident and sustainable future for Ireland at home and internationally; building an Ireland of excellence and ambition."

You talk about internationalism, what rubbish. YOu are not capable of being genuine internationalists. THis is one thing that really winds me up about FG. They always spout on about being 'passionatly European'. First of all you are not, your politics is based on getting the best deal for the Irish ruling classes not the best deal for the ordinary European working man. Only the workers can be genuine internationalists as capitalism is based on competing ruling classes that fight for each other markets and resources. Secondly what about outside of Europe? You don't see international relations going beyond the borders of the EU. This is very Eurocentric and has a hint of racism. Thirdly FG are NOT a Chrisitan Democratic party as you claim. I have some experience of Christian Democratic parties after living in Germany and Sweden. You are not christian democrats, you are just claiming this label in order to gain more privilages in the Euro Parliament.

by ipsiphi iosaf Oas-if Fri Apr 04, 2003 16:27

where do Young Fine Gael members stay on holidays in Spain or Italy?

do they socialise with their fraternal European parties?

by ashamed Fri Apr 04, 2003 16:36

They even go further and want Ireland to become part of a military alliance so that we would be forced to engage in hostilities whether we wanted to or not. Some of them lecture me about "our defence responsibilities towards the new Europe" and say things such "neutrality is old fashioned in the modern world"

by iosaf (quite agrees with everyone on the 'loony left') Fri Apr 04, 2003 16:42

people who draw their power from patriarchies and "la paternidad" of the twentieth century fascist regimes.
And one can naturally take it for granted that young FG people do stay with European "reconstructed fascists" when they go on holidays. Birds of a feather after all often flock together.
We notice those birds in some of our cities.
they squawk.
Imagine little Alex the Young Fine Gael activist readers, imagine the petulant little ogra that he most surely is, the careerist who also has a heart but not policy for the homeless of Limerick, imagine him reader, at his portal on the internet "our domain" squawking.

by conor - Young Fine Gael Mon Apr 26, 2004 20:34 conor.boyle at nuigalway dot ie

The origin of fine gael comes from the merger of the national party (agriculture), cumann na gael and the army comrades association. The army comrades association were characterised as the Blueshirts, which is where most of the Fine Gael = Facist bollocks comes from. The aforementioned blueshirts were set up as an ex free state soldier association, which then evolved as a movement to protect cumann na gael mettings from attack from IRA supporters- a defence of free speech. Lest us not forget, the ancestors of Fine Gael founded a democratic country WHEN MOST WESTERN NATIONS WERE DEVELOPING INTO TOTALITARIAN REGIMES. Does this sound Facist to you? The ancesters of fine gael also faced down an army mutiny, and protected democracy in this country. Facist tendencies? Did anyone see the pictures of the masked colour parties at recent Sinn Fein Easter Sunday commerations? looks bit facist to me. Oh, dont forget IRA punishment beatings- what with the silly Geneva Convention and all that
P.S. De Valera was the first to introduce internment in the 32 counties. He also restricted free speech (emergency times)

by AFA Mon Apr 26, 2004 20:45

We can debate all night about whether or not the Blueshirts were fascist. One thing is certain their leaders were fascist and there was a huge percentage of fascists in their ranks.

If this was not the case why did the Blueshirts often openly used the nazi salute? Praise Mussolini and Hitler? and why did they send troops over to Spain to fight for the fascists?

by david Tue Apr 27, 2004 01:46

but has to go back over a year into the archives to find a dubious point he can argue about...

by conor - yfg Tue Apr 27, 2004 13:02 conor.boyle at nuigalway dot ie

Thank you David- the "facist history of fine gael" article is not only dubious, its completly untrue. And I didnt have to trawl back for a year to find articles I disagreed with, just some comments that are completly juvenile and untrue. To AFA, they did use a facist style salute, but those meetings are quite similar to any Ard Feis of any party today. "Arise and follow Bertie/ Albert /Charlie" etc Loyalty to an organisation doesnt mean youre a facist. The biggest characteristic of a facist organisation is the attempt to create a totalitarian regime- which as i pointed out above, Fine Gael patently did not do.

by pat c Tue Apr 27, 2004 13:09

they wore blueshirts in the dail, gave the fascist salute in the dail. organised mussolini style marchs on dublin. praised hitler & mussolini. sent troops to fight on francos side against a democratically elected government.

by John Tue Apr 27, 2004 14:40

Did you opposse a war by a democratically elected government to remove a mass murdering dictator?

You can't remove context from hisotry like everyon is trying to do on this web with regard to FG

by AFA Tue Apr 27, 2004 14:42

"The biggest characteristic of a facist organisation is the attempt to create a totalitarian regime- which as i pointed out above, Fine Gael patently did not do"

Just because they failed does not mean they were not fascist. Would you say the BNP are not fascist? they have not created a totalitarian regime in Britain. Would you say that Mosley in Britain was not fascist? He never created a totalitarian regime.

The fact is that the Blueshirts cantained a huge number of facists. This was evident in their salutes, their dress, their politics and the fact that they fought in Spain for Franco. Conor can you please adress these facts in any future reply.

BTW, conor, no party in Ireland makes fascist salutes at its conference (unless FG do when the cameras aren't about??)

by pat c Tue Apr 27, 2004 14:54

in the 1930s the FG party supported fascism. its leaders openly called for support for mussolini andhitler. they adopted all of the trappings offascists.

i am not saying that the present fg are fasc ist, to do so would be ridiclious. they just should be careful about bandying around the word given their own history

as for your other point: bush was not democratically elected. bertie did not have any mandate to support the war.

by R. Isible Tue Apr 27, 2004 18:27

Conor - YFG wrote:
"Loyalty to an organisation doesnt mean youre a facist. "

No, but it's certainly one of the common threads in the various sociological definitions of fascism. When you couple that with a base which is supposedly small independent property owners, rentiers, middle-classes then it starts to look more and more like fascism as defined by Parsons or Lipset (book is called something like _Political Man: The Social Base of Politics_ c.1960

Your argument also appears to argue that just because FF displays some common elements with FG that this means these elements can't be fascist. I don't see how that's true.

by Penguin Tue Apr 27, 2004 18:38

That you need to quote lipset for your argument is a clear sign of ideological desperation.

Remember the rugrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by conor - yfg Tue Apr 27, 2004 23:44 conor.boyle at nuigalway dot ie

To Pat, you said fine gael supported mussolini and hitler- Dev went to the german embassey to pay his respects when Hitler topped himself. To AFA, when did we fail to create a totalitarian regime? when we created one of the few democratic governments of the day in western europe? When Cumann na gael faced down an army revolt? When we handed over power peacefully to Fianna Fail- bitter enemies at the time. Youre right- what a complete failure at facists we were! Republicans consorted with the nazi regime at the time for weapons, money etc. Berlin had a list of all the Jews living in ireland- courtsey of the IRA. to r. isible, im not saying that its ok for fg to be facist if fianna fail are also- what i wrote are historical facts.

by Fine Gael Fan Wed Apr 28, 2004 02:33

They have no respect for democratic institutions or the rule of law in this country.

They spit and snarl and threaten our Gardaí, they destroy property and cause disruption ot ordianry people.

Worse, among themselves, they stifle debate and impose the Party line dictated by the ringleaders (I know this from experience). is at any wonder that Indymedia is known in America as Nazimedia?

by Charles Daly Wed Apr 28, 2004 09:02

'Fine Gael Fan' is one of those people who try to claim that the Blueshirts were not fascists. I have heard people like 'Fine Gael Fan' claim that they were only a "shirted movement"! I suppose you think the Nuremberg Rallies were just a fashion parade.

By describing anti-war and anti-globalisation protestors as 'fascist' you are acting in the true spirit of Goebbles. As for your jibe about indymedia being refered to as "nazimedia", that is the type of nonsense that originates from the extreme right wing in the USA. Indymedia is a resource, not a political party, and do not have a "party line" that they can make members conform to. 'Fine Gael Fan' is definitely confused on that point.

Indymedia do not stifle debate, but they do remove all the holocaust denial stuff. If that is what you describe as 'stifling debate' then indymedia are doing the right thing and would have the support of all decent people.

No matter what abuse these fascists throw at indymedia, it is a great resource where the public can exercise their freedom of speech, something which Fine Gael would be happy to trample on.
The history of Fine Gael speaks for itself. Need I mention Oliver J. Flanagan, who, on at least one occasion launched into a vicious tirade against the Jews.
Whatever about the thirties and forties, I clearly remember the government of Cosgrave in the seventies, the 'Heavy Gang' affair, and also the way Fine Gael deliberately tried to undermine the President. It is to Cearbal's eternal credit that he refused to allow them to undermine the Presidency, even though it meant giving up his own career. It is people like him who are the true defenders of democracy.

by pat c Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:45

when have i ever expressed any support for dev?

you have not dealt with the fg support for mussolini, hitler and franco. the army "revolt" was in 1924. we are talking about the 1930's when your predecessors organised a mussolini style march on dublin.

"Mr. Belton: I wish we had a Hitler here." Dail, 25/7/1935

"The Minister gave extracts from various laws on the Continent, but he carefully refrained from drawing attention to the fact that the Blackshirts were victorious in Italy and that the Hitler Shirts were victorious in Germany, as, assuredly, in spite of this Bill and in spite of the Public Safety Act, the Blueshirts will be victorious in the Irish Free State. "
John Costello 28/2/1934

"Dr. O'Higgins: I should like it to be more intelligible. However, Mussolini, I think in the opinion of all is a very great man. He has fulfilled a number [1932] of functions and held a number of positions during his life" Dail 28/5/1935

"As an Irishman and as a Catholic—a humble one, I must say—I will oppose this Bill, because I will not agree to the application of sanctions against Italy, who is going out to civilise and to Christianise a pagan race. I sincerely hope that the Italian race, and Mussolini, the great leader of the Italian people, and defender of our faith in Italy, will be successful in this war." Mr Kent, Dail (supporting Mussolinis invasion of Ethiopia)

"Mr. Morrissey: A great many people in this country think Mussolini a most intelligent man, and probably a great many people think the same of Hitler." Dail 27/5/1937

"By our action here to-day we have curried no favour except the favour that will come from Communists, from Jews and Freemasons. We have alienated Christian Catholic support in this supposed Christian Catholic Chamber." Belton Dail 19 February, 1937 speaking on the Spanish Civil War (Non-Intervention) Bill, 1937

by pat c Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:47

your stuff about the IRA supplying a list of names of jews to the Germans is nonsense. if such a list was in germann hands then it most likely came from blueshirt elements given the comments of belton above.

by conor - YFG Wed Apr 28, 2004 16:51 conor.boyle at nuigalway dot ie

Re. Charles- ask Alan Shatter if he is uncomfortable about the Anti- semetism of the current FG. party. In fact I bet even Ben Brisco wouldnt say FG are anti- semetic. The FG party are NOT facist- if they were I wouldnt be a member of Yfg. To Pat- I never said you did support Dev but if people are going to indulge in offensive namecalling about FG because of the blueshirts in the 30's, well i can do the same by bringing up occasions where it can also be construed that other parties are facist. It amazes me when people go on about "blueshirt scum" and how FG are facist in this era, even though we have the likes of Aine ni Chonaill, Justin Barret and a very questionable citizenship referendum in the offing. Ill admit straight up J. Barret used to be a member of YFG, but then so was Bono! The comment about FG being facist because of heavy gang activity in the 70s is absolutely ludicrous.

by pat c Wed Apr 28, 2004 17:15

"not removing context
by pat c Tuesday, Apr 27 2004, 1:54pm
i am not saying that the present fg are fasc ist, to do so would be ridiclious. they just should be careful about bandying around the word given their own history"

i am not saying that fg at present are fascist. yes you can bring up what dev did, but bringing it up to argue with me is a red herring, i never defended devs despicable action in signing the book of condolences for hitler.