Dublin City Council facing the chop

by Marie - none Thu Jan 16, 2003 14:41

Pity Sinn Fein didn't do the same last time, if they had the charge would be gone. But they didn't they were disgusting and dishonest and now as well as the charge we face increases!!!

I voted for Sinn Fein both nationally and locally, I'm not a republican I just thought they were more in tune with ordinary areas. I'll never do it again - they are as power mad as the rest of them and it'll be no compliment to them if they vote against it tonight. They're happy to act the hardshaw in areas but when it comes to actually standing up for people who voted for them, you can forget it.

by Benny B Thu Jan 16, 2003 14:49

Marie your full of it. SF has done the most work on this issue of all parties in Dublin. On our last count over a million leaflets have been distrubuted thousands of posters and our members have made up almost 50% of crowds at protests are made up by Sinn Fein members. Our councillors have always voted against this. You are lying through your teeth if you say we have or have been in any deals with FF or Labour or the Greens.
We stand by our record and actually do work in working class communities unlike the rethorical revolutionaries who spread the lie you have repeated.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Thu Jan 16, 2003 14:54 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Firstly Marie, there have been three votes on the Estimates this year at which every SF Councillor was present and voted against. They will be voting against again tonight and hopefully playing their part in causing the collapse of the Council and forcing the issue onto the national agenda. In other words they will be standing up for ordinary people, as they have done so repeatedly on this issue and as so many members of our party have done so, at the cost of their own lives in cases.

Last year, when you state they didn't vote against the Estimates, they in fact did so and the City Council will be delighted to furnish you with those figures if you care to check your facts before posting them. You are either incorrect, but honest, or lieing.

The year before that, two Sinn Féin councillors missed the vote for what were very good personal reasons. The two who were present voted against. The two who were absent have continued to campaign against the Charges in every way in their local areas. If the people don't believe them on this, they can chuck them out, but considering the increased vote in those areas in the General Election I think they know good representation when they see it.

Lastly, if the two Councillors had been present, it would not have been enough to stop the Estimates being passed.

by sinn fein are sellouts Thu Jan 16, 2003 15:36

Justin states that the two cllrs, Dessie Ellis and Christy Burke were absent for very good personal reasons!!! one was apparently in Galway at a meeting, the other apparently was detained by family business or sick. Thats what Larry O'Toole said on the day anyhow.

Funny that every cat and dog who knew anything about the bin charges knew they wouldn't be there... huge conincidence justin?? or perhaps Sinn Fein as was admitted on a number of occassions took part in what was a con, a beutifuly stage managed performance to keep charges in place and save their council positions, or if we transport ourself to Sligo, to save the Mayoral chain, strikingly similar to the snivelling Lacey of Labour.

Where Sinn Fein is organised in this campaign they have a) either been uninterested, or b) acted as a block to building a genuine campaign of opposition.

Obviously Dessie Ellis has been forced to step forward on this issue, due to the fact that as a local cllr. he was approached by those summoned - his role is the exception rather than the rule and interestingly enough how would he have 'defended' people who were brought to court without the work of the campaigns who actually raised thousands to pay for the legal representation. A job by the way that Sinn Fein didn't do.

by sinn fein are sellouts Thu Jan 16, 2003 15:39

Justin states that the two cllrs, Dessie Ellis and Christy Burke were absent for very good personal reasons!!! one was apparently in Galway at a meeting, the other apparently was detained by family business or sick. Thats what Larry O'Toole said on the day anyhow.

Funny that every cat and dog who knew anything about the bin charges knew they wouldn't be there... huge conincidence justin?? or perhaps Sinn Fein as was admitted on a number of occassions took part in what was a con, a beutifuly stage managed performance to keep charges in place and save their council positions, or if we transport ourself to Sligo, to save the Mayoral chain, strikingly similar to the snivelling Lacey of Labour.

Where Sinn Fein is organised in this campaign they have a) either been uninterested, or b) acted as a block to building a genuine campaign of opposition.

Obviously Dessie Ellis has been forced to step forward on this issue, due to the fact that as a local cllr. he was approached by those summoned - his role is the exception rather than the rule and interestingly enough how would he have 'defended' people who were brought to court without the work of the campaigns who actually raised thousands to pay for the legal representation. A job by the way that Sinn Fein didn't do.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Thu Jan 16, 2003 15:49 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Firstly, even when you post something twice, it doesn't make it more true.

Secondly, to take your 'points' in the order they came the meeting one of them had to attend was unavoidable and personally related and personal business pretty much sums up 'family business' in the other case. The two men wanted to be there and couldn't be. Since then they have been present at every meeting and voted and campaigned against.

Thirdly, your experience in communication with members of the animal Kingdom aside, many people did not know they would not be available, including party members and people involved. There was, as there was last year, as there has been this year, speculation that they would not be there as part of some deal. Two years ago, they were absent for the reasons outlined. This year and last year every prediction they would not be present, and there have been dozens, has been proved untrue.

Fourthly, you fail, as others like you have before, to explain why they would do this? To stay being a Councillor? You must, with all due respect, be some fucking muppet to think that. SF got nothing out of those two Councillors not being there because there was nothing on offer because there was no deal.

Fifthly, come to the protest tonight and judge by the turnout of our membership whether we are interested or not. We yield to no party in Dublin at the level of work done on the ground on this issue. Where genuine community groups opposing the Bin Charges exist, we have worked with them and with other parties.

Lastly, this is my last response on this thread until after tonight. You have provided nothing more than the same inaccurate, tired old slurs on SF that people have been using for the last couple of years. The people showed their support for our stance on the Bin Charges in May. They will show their support for our stance on the in Charges again in 2004. They showed their support for us on every door-step we knocked or clinic we ran on the issue and they showed their support at the pickets, protests and petitions we ran.

I look forward to seeing real activists who, regardless of party affiliation, attend the protest tonight to show their opposition to these charges.

by Alan Thu Jan 16, 2003 15:52

Explain it away all you like Justin. Your mates on Dublin City Council did a dirty deal with the establishment parties to stay in their comfortable seats. Every sellout starts with the first step and that was taken by Sinn Fein a long time ago.

by Hebe Thu Jan 16, 2003 16:05

Explain it away all you like Alan. Your mates on Waterford City Council did a dirty deal with the establishment parties to stay in their comfortable seats, this was a few years back. At the time they accused Labour of brinkmanship, because Labour voted against the local charges.

The WP also kept the 1982 Haughey Government in power.

Every sellout starts with the first step and that was taken by the WP a long time ago.

by Benny B Thu Jan 16, 2003 16:16

Alan etc. There are shirkers and sellouts about alright. They are the people who do nothing but scream and shout about other groups in order to hide there own failings.
SF do the most work on this issue. They put out the most propaganda, hold the most public meetings and organise the biggest crowds for protests. Fact.
Others the SP and WSM have told the story as put onby some people on this site about a sellout. This story is a lie fed to them by the Labour party- specifically Roisin Shorthall. Fact
So instead of showing solidarity with others they want to attack opponents of the Bin Charges. Fact

So forget this shhite and oppose the Bin Charges

by what did the romans ever do for us? Thu Jan 16, 2003 17:21

Splitter!

SPLITTER!

by justin watcher Thu Jan 16, 2003 17:37

"We yield to no party in Dublin at the level of work done on the ground on this issue. Where genuine community groups opposing the Bin Charges exist, we have worked with them and with other parties."

SF are not the most active on the bin charges issue, you are only active where there are votes to be won. I know for a fact that SF did not want to get involved in the bin tax campaign in Dún Laoghaure Rathdown. At the time of the election they put out a leaflet saying that they are running a campaign, and they are the most active! That's a blatent lie, and most people actually involved in the Camapign could see that.

And even where SF were standing for elections you were not the most active. In Cabra it was not SF members that got active, you refused to do much of the leafleting etc.

SF's politics is all about getting votes and getting power. You are not the most active party/group in the Campaign against the bin tax. SP and WSM are far more active and dedicated.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Thu Jan 16, 2003 17:44 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Though I hadn't planned to dignify this thread with further response the discovery that there is a 'Justin-watcher' out there meant I couldn't say no. You're absolutely right that we haven't campaigned greatly in Dun Laoighaire-Rathdown, it's not an area where the party is well developed. In areas where the party is well developed, such as despite your lies Cabra, we play an integral part in the campaign locally.

The leaflets, which i designed and wrote, stated that we were foremost in the campaign across Dublin. We are. We're the biggest left wing party in Dublin and the one with the most active grassroots. So fucking sue us. I'm not saying the SP and the WSM, since you mention them, sit on their asses all day, but that because of their lack of numbers and finance, they can't do as much as we can. There are areas around the country where the parties/organisations you mention exist only as rumours because they have no presence. There are one or two places the same for us. No-one can be strong everywhere.

Wow, my own watcher, what a life you must lead.

by Ray Thu Jan 16, 2003 17:50

_One_ watcher? I've got an entire fan club...

by pat c Thu Jan 16, 2003 18:20

ray

your fanclub should be properly organised, signed photos, posters, personal appearances. product endorsements.

ray says: "drink pernod, it gives you that disorganised feeling"

theres money to be made here.

for a % i'll run the fanclub for you.

by George Fri Jan 17, 2003 16:12

1. SF are not left wing.
2. The avergae SF member is not as active as the average SWP, SP or WSM member

by Justin Watcher Fri Jan 17, 2003 16:17

Justin says that SF have more members and finance than other groups. True.

But where do you get that money? US big business. That's very left-wing and anti-imperialist isn't it?

And your members are not as active as most SP, WSM, SWP etc members. They tend only to get active at elections, just like all the other establsihment parties.

by Brian Cahill Fri Jan 17, 2003 19:02

I'm not "Justin Watcher". Pretty as he may be, I have better things to do with my time.

This is the second time in a few days I've been accused of being some other poster. I'm not. I have a name and I use it.

by Aunty Party Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:06

Brian Cahill = Ken McDonnell

by Eh? Tue Jan 21, 2003 13:35

Where is the normally loqacious Brian Cahill? Why no response? Is he really Ken McDonnell?