Events in France give us a reason to vote

by Daithi Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:00 macsithd at tcd dot ie

Good point C. France suffers from an undemocratic electoral system, in that over 50% could (and probably did) vote for "left" candidates, but two right-wing candidates with a low level of support could (and have) made it into the final round of voting.

We are actually quite lucky in having one of the purest electoral systems - PR/STV is one of the best, as methods of counting go. The fact that FF have twice unsuccessfully tried to abolish it, and continue to come up with proposal for "reform" (read:"how the hell can we get a majority again"), is of course quite striking.

Irish voters, unlike many voters in so-called "democracies", can have their voice heard - that's why you in South Central, or myself in South East, can cast a genuine first preference vote for the best candidate in our opinion, safe in the knowledge that it will not be "wasted". Tactical voting is easy and widespread.

The right wing aren't going to abstain; do we want them to be the only voters?

by eoghan ryan Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:05

It is somewhat disingenuous to claim that there will now be no left-wing candidate in the second round. Jospin is a centrist, teflon type figure like blair, schroeder etc. The 3 main left-wing candidates in the first round all pretty much despise jospin and probably dont give a crap that he failed to make the second round. Anyway gimme an honest fascist over politically correct liberals and holier than thou pseudo-socialists, at least we know exactly what we are up against then. Le Pen puts his name to his views, who the hell are you C.? Don't vote, it's bollix!

by Andrew - The Struggle site Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:43

Two points on this

1. Fascists never come to power through getting 50% plus of the vote - they come to power through seizing power, often from a state system that is happy to let them do so. Thinking you can stop fascism electorally is a BIG mistake.

2. Because of the odd way the French electoral system works Le Pen is in the position he did because the leninist left ran four candidates that took away Jospin's vote (we can be sure they took 1%). So the electoral argument in this case leaves you arguing against the far left running and for support of someone who at the start of the campaign was saying he wasn't a socialist! That sort of 'anti-fascism' is posionous in particular as to 'stop fascism' it ends up propping up the system that creates it!

by K Mon Apr 22, 2002 12:18

To suggest that abstention from the democratic process is the way to send a message of dissatisfaction to 'the man' is utter bullshit. To neglect such a direct, simple way of keeping the extreme right from power is to play into their hands. To see Jospin's Socialists elbowing for a centrist position (Blair-style, without the success) and losing, the atomisation of the far left, and the seemingly more solid performance of the right-wing is disheartening to say the least. Fascists don't always take power by undemocratic means, smug complacency is often enough to give them a foothold. Bickering pedantic left-wingers and a conviction that one's vote doesn't count have often been enough to supply a result as disgraceful as this. Chirac will be voted President again as the French go for the more aceptable, less extreme crook.

by C. Mon Apr 22, 2002 12:38

Ok, I get the point re. us having a 'purer' form of PR than the french system. My issue is that in Dublin South Central we had a 35% turn out. If people don't vote, the numbers who are going to turn out for Aine ni Chonaill are likely to gain a higher percentage of the poll. This, i reckon, is a big reason she chose this constituency.

Andrews points are valid - but surely the electoral system does have value in terms of media coverage etc,. given. A strong percentage for far right candidates is likely to pull other parties to the right and give legitimacy to anti-immigration views (we're not extreme we get 15% of the poll). The second point is more difficult - my argument means I should vote FF or whoever will get in, as opposed to anti-bin tax or something, on the basis of not splitting the anti-fascist vote. Don't know the answer.

Eoghan, I'm a poster on this site, not an election candidate. For the first time I had decided not to vote in this election - then got a shock this morning when i heard the news about Le Pen and wanted a reaction here. If you're really concerned who I am ask on the Indymedia lists and i'll tell you off list (giving my special branch number and all).

So maybe my post should have been a question - does abstaining from electoral politics not leave an opening for others to use it. Are we not giving up a (fairly useless admittedly in terms of real change) tactic?

by Michael Ronan O'Connell - Globalise Resistance Mon Apr 22, 2002 12:45 michaeloconnell2001 at yahoo dot com

YES, C

If we abstain, from voting, wheter it be in France or Ireland, we do give fascists a potential platform, and indeed all centre/right-wingers.

I believe we must use the system, until such time as we change it.

by Steve Mon Apr 22, 2002 14:03

"I believe we must use the system, until such time as we change it"

And how would GR do that then?
Sounds a little scary to me. You planning on banning elections?

Steve

by Andrew Mon Apr 22, 2002 15:06

It was fairly predictable that the electoral far left would use the le Pen vote to try and panic people into voting for them. But this is pretty inconsistent, do either the SP or SWP call for a transfer to FF or FG to 'stop Aine Ni Connall' for instance? Are their French sections calling for a vote for Chirac to stop le Pen. The fact that they are not indicates that, whatever the membership feel, the leadership of these organisations do have an understanding of what threat fascism actually represents.

Again I repeat their is no country where fascism came to power by being elected. Sure like other parties they used elections for publicity but they would have had to be stopped in the streets (as the anarchists nearly stopped them in Spain) and not in the polling booth. This is hardly worth arguing today as the question was 'settled' in the 20's and 30's when fascist parties with around 30% of the vote took power by coup in Italy and Germany.

by badman Mon Apr 22, 2002 15:12

I'm a little puzzled about what exactly is the lesson to be drawn from the French results. As far as I see it, people are arguing that elections are important to defeat fascism. So if defeating fascism our aim in the election, then we should vote for the party most likely to get in against them, and not split the anti-fascist vote. In France if Chevenment, Laguillier, Hue, the greens and the 2 other trots hadn't run then Jospin would have made the second round no problem. So we should denounce these leftists as splitters and vote for the most likely to defeat the right. Actually, from the point of keeping the fascists out, the eventual run off between Le Pen and Chirac is probably the best run off we could have. If Le Pen had been facing anybody else (say Jospin) he would have had a slim chance, as it is he has none.

In Ireland if we were to use this anti-fascist argument on elections, we would all have to vote fianna fail since they are the most likely party to get in and they aren't fascists.

The thing is that it is false to call Jospin a candidate of the left, you couldn't slip a sheet of paper between the politics of him and Chirac. Indeed Jospin's prime ministership has been mainly characterised by his very succesful defusing of the enormous social upheavals that had been raging in france before he got in. The previous (Juppe) administration had seen its economic plans smashed by the largest ever strike movement in France which saw around 5 million on indefinite strike in November-December 1995, followed by the massive mobilisations against the new racist lodging laws in 1997 which saw France's largest ever demonstration in Paris (1.5 million people). Jospin's great achievement was to defuse this anger and then go about achieving the same goals by subtler means. His election was actually a disaster for French social movements which almost overnight saw their strength dissappear.

This is the raison d'etre of modern labour parties - when the ruling class feels that it is strong enough it chooses the rightists and goes on the assault (Thatcher, Berlusconi), when it doesn't it goes for less confrontational leftists (Blair, Jospin) who'll get the job done, albeit more subtly, slower and less triumphantly. The thing about elections is that we don't choose the winner, the ruling class does. Whoever the ruling class gives most money to, gives the best media coverage to, applies most political pressure on behalf of, wins. Jack Welch elected Bush, Murdoch & Packer elected Howard. So don't be fooled by this farce, let them get on with their show while we concentrate on building our strength on the streets, that's where fascism will be defeated and that's where the new world must be built.

by fuinseog Mon Apr 22, 2002 16:58

An honest question or two for those who seem so annoyed by C.'s posting:

1. If you had a vote in the next round in France would you vote for Chirac, Le Pen or no-one?

2. If you had a vote in Dublin South Central, didn't use it and Aine ni Chonaill scraped into the last seat how would you feel?

by Phuq Hedd Mon Apr 22, 2002 19:01

So, "C.", what happens if we all decide to go out and vote for the "lesser evil" most likely to defeat the "greatest evil"?
It means that a Labour/FG coalition will be given a "clear mandate" that their policies are favoured by the electorate.
If, the dissatisfied in France were to choose "none of the above" then I have no doubt that they would be in a majority. A large part of Le Pen's vote is a protest vote at the corrupt "socialists" that have been in power screwing the French working class.
All that will happen if Le Pen is defeated is that there will be a covertly fascist government in power instead of an overtly fascist one.
The reason that workers have any sort of rights in France isn't because some "socialist" is in power, but because they, the workers, are militant about their rights. (ditto race relations: they're in the state that they are because most people want it that way).

by fuinseog Mon Apr 22, 2002 19:29

"So, "C.", what happens if we all decide to go out and vote for the "lesser evil" most likely to defeat the "greatest evil"?
It means that a Labour/FG coalition will be given a "clear mandate" that their policies are favoured by the electorate."

That's nonsense. Do you understand PRSTV? You can vote for whoever you want as long as they're standing. (Significantly, you cannot vote against the system.) The question C was putting is if you live in Dublin South Central should you consciously vote against Aine ni Chonaill who has deliberately targeted a low turnout area, or stand on some principle that there's no difference between her, and say Independent Health Care candidate,SF, Greens, Socialist Party, Labour, FF, FG, PDs.

"If, the dissatisfied in France were to choose "none of the above" then I have no doubt that they would be in a majority."

Except that there is as you may know no "none of the above" box on the ballot paper. So if you don't vote you just get ignored, which is the case for the majority of the population in the least democratic of the western "democracies", the USA.

"A large part of Le Pen's vote is a protest vote at the corrupt "socialists" that have been in power screwing the French working class."

So that's okay then is it? We'll just tell people to protest not vote and let his support rise?

"All that will happen if Le Pen is defeated is that there will be a covertly fascist government in power instead of an overtly fascist one."

If you can't distinguish between Le Pen and Chirac then you deserve both of them. What is the problem with people who think everyone they disagree with or dislike is a fascist? Anyone with even a slight bit of intelligence would prefer a crook like Haughey to Aine ni Chonaill, or Chirac to Le Pen. If you were black or gay you certainly would!

"The reason that workers have any sort of rights in France isn't because some "socialist" is in power, but because they, the workers, are militant about their rights. (ditto race relations: they're in the state that they are because most people want it that way)."

Most French people want foreigners being attacked on the streets of Marseilles and Paris? Are you intending to write nonsense or does it just come out that way?

by Phuq Hedd Tue Apr 23, 2002 01:16

>That's nonsense. Do you understand PRSTV? You can
>vote for whoever you want as long as they're
>standing.

So I mark my ballot:
1.Nice socialist
2.Less nice socialist
3.Green Party
4.Sinn Fein
5.Labour

Now, most people are not going to be voting for 1-4 if past performance and recent opinion polls are anything to go by. They're going to vote for FG/FF/Labour/PD.

So the likelihood is that we end up with the "moderate" coalition which is "nicer" than Aine Ni Chonaill. That vote takes place under a system where people like you (that understand PRSTV and live in reality-land) are conscious that their vote IS AN ENDORSEMENT OF A CANDIDATE. You have just agreed that your judgement, opinion, intellect and decision is completely invested in the person of the FF/FG/Labour/PD candidate.

Now, those people have been in power for a long time ( I understand that this may be different in reality land where you live, but /I'm/ talking about The Real World) and they demonstrate little concern about racism.

You've just endorsed that.

Well done.

>Except that there is as you may know
>no "none of the above" box on the ballot
>paper. So if you don't vote you just get
>ignored,

And the practical effects of voting and being ignored and not-voting and being ignored is what? Yes, the difference is that in the latter scenario you have given your assent to the process.

>which is the case for the majority
>of the population in the least democratic
>of the western "democracies", the USA

Like, whatever?!

"A large part of Le Pen's vote is a protest vote at the corrupt "socialists" that have been in power screwing the French working class."
>So that's okay then is it? We'll just tell
>people to protest not vote and let his
>support rise?

No, let's tell people not to vote, but to go out and beat the crap out of anti-racists. To go out and build revolutionary unions that will provide hope and future for the people that are being manipulated into race hatred. A vote for a corrupt faux-socialiste is more likely to continue the already existing racism in France. If all the smug, smarmy, "left-wing", effers that "vote socialist" were to DO something instead of surrendering their will to a manipulator then racism would be manifested a lot less.

>If you can't distinguish between Le Pen and
>Chirac then you deserve both of them.

If you can't observe that Le Pen and Chirac depend upon each other and are products of the "representative democracy" that you're endorsing then you DON'T deserve either of them. No-one does. You suffer from the same delusion that Le Pen does: you think that he CREATES the racism that he exploits. Bollocks. If Le Pen were not there then there'd be someone else harnessing the resentment and desperation of the poor. All that you want to do is to put a nice face ontop of the rotten pile of shit that is "Capitalist Democracy".

>What is the problem with people who think
>everyone they disagree with or dislike is
>a fascist?

Maybe they're people that don't like fascists? Is that a problem?

>Anyone with even a slight bit of
>intelligence would prefer a crook
>like Haughey to Aine ni Chonaill,
>or Chirac to Le Pen. If you were black
>or gay you certainly would!

Again you posit a choice which leaves out the real option: do away with both of them. Which would you rather have George W. Bush as world leader or Osama bin Laden? Personally I'm not endorsing any of them, I'm alarmed that you would, but then you've only got a "slight bit of intelligence"

>Most French people want foreigners being
>attacked on the streets of Marseilles and
>Paris? Are you intending to write nonsense
>or does it just come out that way?

Read what I wrote genius. I wrote "race relations". I suspect that a large number of French people are happy with attacks on COLOURED foreigners. I suspect a much larger number are shocked by those attacks, but they still don't want "those people coming over here and taking our jobs" and then there's a smaller number that believe that borders should be done away with and that all people on the earth have a right to their share. (You don't believe that large numbers of people can be assholes? Have a read of Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen).

Now, go ahead and support the system.

by Phuq Hedd Tue Apr 23, 2002 01:28

And the practical difference between voting-and-being-ignored and spoiling-your-ballot-and-being-ignored is that in the FORMER case you have given your consent to the process.

by Finghin Tue Apr 23, 2002 16:06

Wht should socialists vote for Chirac? why should we choose one capitalist over another? Chirac is not some kind of saviour of working people. Chirac will not suddenly when in office say thank you to the left and go easy on workers. The fact is that both candidates will attack workers rights and bring in harsh asylum laws etc. Reject all capitalist parties, build a mass workers party in France. The independence of the workers movement must be preserved. Whenever workers go into coalition or collabaration with the bourgeois it ends in defeat for workers.

by fuinseog Tue Apr 23, 2002 18:43

>>Except that there is as you may know
>>no "none of the above" box on the ballot
>>paper. So if you don't vote you just get
>>ignored,

>And the practical effects of voting and being >ignored and not-voting and being ignored is >what? Yes, the difference is that in the latter >scenario you have given your assent to the >process.

How do you give your assent? At the risk of repeating myself there's nothing on the ballot paper which allows to withhold your assent. The difference is whether you get a fascist or a capitalist. The system never asks for your assent. You know that.

>>which is the case for the majority
>>of the population in the least democratic
>>of the western "democracies", the USA

>Like, whatever?!

I don't know what that's supposed to mean. Does it mean you don't understand. By your definition the majority in the USA withhold their consent to the system. Doesn't achieve much for them does it?

>>What is the problem with people who think
>>everyone they disagree with or dislike is
>>a fascist?

>Maybe they're people that don't like fascists? >Is that a problem?

The problem is an inability to understand the nature of the forces you are fighting, an inability to distinguish between different objectionable political philosophies and between people who pose distinctly different threats to society.

by Greg Tue Apr 23, 2002 22:48 gregkerr at oceanfree dot net

Anyone wonder why Le Pen got the vote that he did?? Perhaps one reason is as a backlash to the supposedly 'socialist' policies pursued by Jospin which have resulted in poverty and alienation among large sections of the working class. Le Pen hasn't caused racism in France - he is merely exploiting the fact that as a result of that poverty and alienation many people are looking for a scapegoat.
I can't believe that people would advocate voting 'in order to keep Aine Ni Chonaill out of a seat'. Who do you propose voting for?? Fianna Fail or the PDs who have already done more than Ni Chonaill could dream of to forment racism - deportations, direct provision, dispersal, constant speeches referring to 'illegal immigrants', the party of Noel O'Flynn and Ivor Callelly???? Fine Gael or Labour both of whom in case you have forgotten were in the government before this - which started off the whole process of demonising asylum seekers and which has failed abysmally when given the opportunity to deal with issues of poverty and homelessness which lead to the sense of poverty and hopelessness which allows Ni Chonaill and her ilk to thrive.
Given that the pundits have given no-one else in the constituency any chance of winning a seat, there's not much point in voting for them to keep Ni Chonaill out.
The most amazing thing about most of the comments on this issue though is that they presume that people who advocate not voting want us all to sit at home and do nothing. The opposite is actually the case. Anarchists, when they say don't vote, follow it up with a very important word - 'Organise'. The way to ensure Ni Chonaill doesn't manage to sell her poison is to get out and work with the people of the area in fighting back against poverty, homelessness and unemployment. The central message to give to people - whether in Paris or Dublin - is that the real scroungers are to be found in Dail Eireann and in the boardrooms of big business and that the real divide in both French and Irish society - and everywhere else indeed - is between rich and poor not between black and white.
To go into a polling booth and put numbers on a piece of paper is in itself disempowering. Don't wate your time - get out and get active and stop selling illusions in the parliamentary sham.

by Phuq Hedd Wed Apr 24, 2002 01:51

Not that anyone cares! but I accidentally wrote:
"No, let's tell people not to vote, but to go out and beat the crap out of anti-racists."
and what I meant to write was:
"No, let's tell people not to vote, but to go out and beat the crap out of racists."
Sorry if I confused anyone.