Chavez under fire

by fuinseog Mon Jan 06, 2003 00:48

but if you want news about Venezuela see

http://www.narconews.com/

and

http://www.vheadline.com/main.asp

(No sign of this "story" from a quick google search either.)

by B. Dillon Mon Jan 06, 2003 00:52

No kidding - because this is going down as we type..

Google will catch up...

by B. Dillon Mon Jan 06, 2003 00:59

Google Caught up

http://news.google.com/news?q=venezuela&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off&scoring=d

Chavez under fire
Ireland Independent Media Center, Ireland - 24 minutes ago
All over Venezuela, ordinary voters are outraged by the latest proof of terrorist
connections between their country's ruler Hugo Chavez and Al Qaeda, Osama Bin ...

by Lander Miranda Mon Jan 06, 2003 01:01

The suorce is: www.notitarde.com

The paper, though small, is serious and independent.

You can also look it up in the Miami Herald, or do a "news" search regarding Maj. Juan Diaz Castillo, which happens to be the Venezuelan Air Force pilot of the presidential airplane, who made the statement in the first place.

Or ask CNN about the video depicting the CELEBRATION hosted by Chavez supporters on Sept. 11th 2001, and see for yourself what their feelings about the attacks were on that day.

by Derek Mon Jan 06, 2003 01:01

With the financial resources available to Osama Bin Laden, it is rather doubtful that he (an Islamic fundamentalist) would seek assistance from a relatively progressive leader like Chavez. This is really a very poor effort at disinformation from the boys and girls at Langley, and of course their servants and agents in the so called free press.

by B. Dillon Mon Jan 06, 2003 01:25

If you would check it out you will find that Chavez sought out Bin Laden.

by El Pollo Valenciano Mon Jan 06, 2003 01:47

and then talk about something you dont know.
And fuinseong:
Everybody knows those sources are paid for by the Chavez Administration.

by Henry Nado Mon Jan 06, 2003 02:33 hnado at cantv dot net

Chavez has links and partners in the colombian guerrilla, the cuban secret service, it was recently discovered that his regime has given protection and a safe haven in Nueva Esparta island to middle east terrorist organisations, he protected international delinquent Vladimiro Montesions from Peru... This is, at the least, an outlaw government. His friends comprise Saddam Husseim and Moamar Kaddafi, Fidel Castro... you name it. I'm not suprised with the Al Quada contributions given his strong defense of this group. He called the U.S. as terrorist as Osama Bin Laden for their attacks on taliban regime. What else do you want?

by IMC Thing Mon Jan 06, 2003 05:14

B.Dillon, I can't work out if you are ignorant or believe that the public are such; you say that "Google" will catch up - and then you cite a reference from Google.

IT'S THE SAME ARTICLE THAT YOU'RE COMMENTING ON!!Ireland Independent Media Centre. That's this site. So apparently a non-editorial search engine that picks up the article you are commenting on is proof for that article??? A ten-year old child could point out the gaping hole in your feeble, pathetic, dumb argument.

"Google will catch up". There's only one person that needs to catch up here. This is an open newswire, and something published here doesn't create any claim of authenticity or accuracy. Pretending that a reference in a search engine to this site does so is not going to wash with anyone other than your good self.

by fuinseog Mon Jan 06, 2003 06:15

Actually I had a quick look at El Nacional website before I made my comment. No sign of the story on the front and you need to register to get more stories.

Notitarde link is interesting, contains the following:

El mayor de la Fuerza Aérea Venezolana, Juan Díaz Castillo, hasta hace dos meses piloto del avión presidencial, acusó desde Miami a Hugo Chávez de financiar a la red terrorista Al Qaida. Durante una conferencia de prensa, el oficial agregó que el gobierno venezolano envió una ayuda humanitaria de un millón de dólares en efectivo a Afganistán a través del embajador Walter Márquez, de los cuales 100 mil llegaron a su destino, mientras que el resto fue directamente a la red de terroristas Al Qaida, de Bin Laden.

the gist being:
Chavez's former pilot said in Miami that the venezuelan government sent a million dollars of humanitarian aid to Venezuela of which 100,000 got to its destiny while the rest went to Al qaeda.

Clicking on the further information link brings you to a completely different story.

militaresdemocraticas website speaks for itself in terms of credibility.

by Irony is dead Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:00

USA funds Iraq regime and right wing death squads in Latin America - outcome=just plain old business.
Chavez does (or doesn't) fund al Quateda - outcome=USA engineers a military coup with thousands killed and a new Pinochet in power.

By the way 'intelligence services' are prone to use so called small independent papers t

by Irony is dead Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:02

to plant scoops that start a snow ball of lies. Then the arms inspectors follow, we know the rest...

by Joffe - SP Mon Jan 06, 2003 12:21

Workers are on strike in Venezuela. They should be supported.

If oilworkers were on strike in the US you would support them , so why not in Venezeula.

by redJaDe Mon Jan 06, 2003 14:01

Read your Chilean history. The CIA financed all sorts of strikes and disruptions leading up to the day Allende was overthrown and assassinated.

I believe in worker solidarity, but not blind obedience to 'union' demands. Also look up the American AFL-CIO's progam (often CIA funded) called American Institute for Free Labor Development, a loooong history of 'solidarity' with right wing unions in Latin America doing Uncle Sam's work. Examine their 'solidarity' with Unions in El Salvador during the 80's.

Remember also, Venezuela is the number #1 supplier of oil to the USA, not the Persian Gulf, as is commonly believed.

I hate to be reductionistic and say 'it's about oil' - but it is. That, and the fact that a majority of W Bush's LatAm State Dept appointees are Cuban-Americans.

And those guys have manipulated elections and democracy for a long time, across Latin America and within the US (read: Florida 2000), not to mention had thier hand in the death of a famous irish-american president.

and the band played on...

redJaDe

by Maubere Mon Jan 06, 2003 14:03

It was only a matter of time before Bush and his Venezuelan allies tried to link Chavez to Bin Laden, they must be getting very annoyed with Chavez, no matter what they try they just cant get rid of this democratically elected troublemaker, the military coup failed in April and now their "strike" is also failing. I hope that Joffe isnt really in the SP as this so-called strike is nothing more than the business class locking their workers out of their jobs and then claiming the workers are on strike against Chavez!
Re Chavez and Sept 11, what he said was the Americans were "answering terror with terror" a pretty accurate and couragous thing to say. By the way disagreeing with Bush's foreign policy does not mean you are a terrorist supporter. Actually supporting Bush's foreign policy means you are a terrorist supporter, he gave $42m to the Colombian army (which is allied with the drug-dealing terrorist group the AUC) just before Christmas to help their campaign of terrorism against the Colombian people (40,000 killed over the past 10 years), if you support Bush's foreign policy then you are supporting his terrorist attacks in Colombia and elsewhere.
Re funding for Bin Laden, if George W Bush wants to know more about that subject then he should ask his Dad.

by Blockhead Mon Jan 06, 2003 14:29

Was driving to Dublin early on Saturday morning and caught World Report on Radio 1 at 8am. The first item was a report from Venezuela by Michael McCaughan, the Irish Times' Latin America correspondant. This report goes further than any other mainstream report I have seen or heard (including the journalist's own items in the Irish Times to expose the truth behind the recent "strikes". Check out the audio file at the attached link.
Note how he casually drops words to the effect of "...the American supported coup last April..." To all those Yankee supporters (I mean US foreign policy supporters) out there, supporting a coup against a democratically elected official does NOT protect democracy, freedom, etc. In fact it means doing exactly what Bush II accused al-Qaeda of doing after the attack on the WTC.
Check out also the list of reforms that Chavez is trying to implement. They would be impressive in any country.
A friend of mine travelled in Venezuela and got an infection from a spider bite. He ended up having to stay two weeks in hospital at the pleasure of the Chavez government during which he received good treatment and drugs and didn't have to pay a penny. My friend also commented that there are a number of incomplete structures dotted around the country. When he asked some locals why this was, they replied that the project managers would get the money to do a job, then walk off the job and out of the country with a suitcase full of cash. He also noticed how, in the recent photographs of the "striking" workers and opposition rallies, everyone is wearing designer shoes, labelled clothes and jeans. These are the rich of Venezuela fighting to maintain their elevated position in Venezuelan society.

by Joffe - SP Mon Jan 06, 2003 14:51

Thats what the workers are striking for. Chavez is just another dictator, who like Noreiga has fallen out with his US paymasters.

by Irony is dead Mon Jan 06, 2003 14:55

These strikes are called by the bosses and right wing trade union leaders to bring down a left reformist govt. The result if they are successful could be a military dictatorship. Not all strikes are supported by socialists..
eg 1974 Ulster workers council strikes, racist strikes etc

by Paul O'Donnell Mon Jan 06, 2003 15:27

An excellent movie was made in the late 1980s entitled "A very British Coup" and starring the late Ray McAnally as hardline leftwing British Labour MP Harry Perkins who becomes Prime Minister and promises a socialist government. The establishment is shocked to discover he means it and every trick in the book is thrown at him, including treason, murder and conspiracy. In the end the assassins bullet is the preferred option for those who have ruled Britannia "Yea even unto the Middle Ages".

One scene centres around a right-wing trade union leader who brings out his workers (the electricians - sorry electricians!) on strike and almost brings down the government. An uncanny Rupert Murdoch figure plays an important role from his swimming pool.

Marvellous stuff. Pity the author - Chris Mullin MP for Sunderland South - has gone down the Blair road to some extent (although he deserves credit for exposing the framing of the Birmingham Six).

Thoroughly recommend the book and film.

by Piddlesticks Mon Jan 06, 2003 15:40

Joffe - the "workers" on strike are not fighting for workers control of the oil company. The people on strike are the middle and upper management of Petroleum de Venezuela (PdVSA)

Whilst PdVSA is theoretically a state-owned company, the problem is that it's profits are not going to the people of Venezuela - instead they are flowing overwhelmingly either to the oil bureaucracy and the well-off in Caracas, or are being spent on dodgy "investment" deals abroad.

Chavez is keen to bring PdVSA under control of the State, as he needs those (massive!) oil profits for his social programmes.

That's one major element behind the strike / coup - the wealthy don't want to see their cash-cow taken over by the State.

The other element is the Land Reform laws scheduled to be passed in the coming weeks - the opposition are desperate to overthrow Chavez before they are passed.

Zmag (www.zmag.org) has an informative section on Venezuela - three other good sites are

http://www.vheadline.com - news in English updated daily

http://www.narconews.com

and

http://www.antiescualidos.net (en espanol)

by Irony is dead Mon Jan 06, 2003 15:56

I'm in total agreement there. By the way if you look at the website of the original poster(er) then you will see what these scum are about. They oppose Chavez in the same manner as Cuba and have quotes from army generals all over the show. These bastards are preparing the bloodbath. Lets expose them and oppose their supporters here.

by MG Mon Jan 06, 2003 17:01

The workers did not decide to go on strike, their bosses did.

Also, where the fuck did all these anti-Chavistas come from. The US State Department probably picks one alternative news site every day and bombards it will imbecilic rubbish supporting the opression of the poor under the guise of "fighting terrorism" or "protecting democracy".

My fucking arse!

We here in Ireland are capable of independent thinking, so the bullshit what works on the US public will not work here. Long live the Bolivarian Revolution and fuck the USA.

by Terry Mon Jan 06, 2003 18:16

Firstly this story that attempts to link Chavez to Al Qaeda is simply black propaganda by the US administration to
try and link Chavez to Bin Laden and so include Chavez as part of the War on Terror. The story is so clearly a
fabrication especially when you consider that because Chavez has not towed the USA fascist line and has critizied the
War On Terror, sold oil to Cuba and is genuinely trying to help the poor who make up 80% of the population in Venezula.
The US refers to him as a 'radical populist'. This is because he won two elections with a large majority and is attempting
to bring in some land reform, and provide education and health for the population. His plan is to claw back via taxes
some of the oil money stolen by the oil companies, which have links to US multinationals. This oil is Venezuelian oil
and any revenue belongs to the people there. However this is not good enough for the USA govt, and they don't want to
share any of this stolen wealth with the people, and should Chavez succeed it would set an example all over Central and
South America and that the continual rape and assault by large corporations on the people and resources of those places
would be exposed for what it is and they just might shake off the oppression regimes put in place and largely backed
by the US.

The US, combined with the corporate owned press and oil companies have already staged one coup in Venezuela last April,
that lasted 24 hrs, during which they managed to dissolve parliament and renounce all the progressive legalistion Chavez
brought in. So here they are at it again. The so-called Strike is only happening at the oil production and loading
terminals and is NOT a strike but a lock-out. It is the union bosses who are stopping the oil from being loaded. As
reported elsewhere these union bosses earn up to $400,000 a year, or 100 times the average income in Venezuela. They
have also closed down well-heads and pipes and placed explosives around them. But if this was the workers doing this
instead of the bosses, the USA would be screaming hysterically, but we here no word of it in the corporate media.

This is a old trick of intelligence agencies to plant stories not only in right-wing papers, but in other 'indepedent'
papers/news agenices to give the illusion of being authentic. The only problem is that people do fall for this
trick quite often, but as I say it is one of the old tricks in the book.

by Ray Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:08

So-called 'Socialist Party' me arse
by Genuine Socialist Mon, Jan 6 2003, 8:22pm
So-called 'Socialist Party' me arse
This wouldn't be the same so-called 'Socialist Party' that seems to be supporting the undemocratic, CIA/bosses inspired attempt to overthrow the democratically elected President of Venzuela Hugo Chavez would it? No wonder you only get 1% of the popular vote in Ireland, and yet you have the fucking check to try and speak for the whole of the Left in Ireland.

This wouldn't be the same so-called 'Socialist Party' that seems to be supporting the undemocratic, CIA/bosses inspired attempt to overthrow the democratically elected President of Venzuela Hugo Chavez would it? No wonder you only get 1% of the popular vote in Ireland, and yet you have the fucking check to try and speak for the whole of the Left in Ireland.

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COMMENTS
So-called 'Socialist Party' me arse
by Genuine Socialist Mon, Jan 6 2003, 8:24pm

This wouldn't be the same so-called 'Socialist Party' that seems to be supporting the undemocratic, CIA/bosses inspired attempt to overthrow the democratically elected President of Venzuela Hugo Chavez would it? No wonder you only get 1% of the popular vote in Ireland, and yet you have the fucking cheek to try and speak for the whole of the Left in Ireland.

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Sorry about that
by Genuine Socialist Mon, Jan 6 2003, 8:52pm

Sorry about the above post, with no details of what I am talking about. I didnt know what I was thinking. I will try to back this statement up with relevant facts and quotes very soon. In the meantime, please ignore. Thanks.

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and when would this be?
by kev - sp Mon, Jan 6 2003, 8:58pm

and when have we supported the bosses strike? in fact heres a statement about the situation...

Moment of Decision in Venezuela?
http://www.socialistparty.net/pub/pages/intrvoice07-01-03/2.htm

Venezuela: Defeat for Reaction
http://www.socialistparty.net/pub/archive/latinam-defeatreactionvenez.htm

Also, just to let people know the socialist party website has been updated today, features include some reports back from the CWI World Congress, winner of the 'Scrooge of the Year' award (george bains) and various international stuff as usual.

and mister "Genuine Socialist" why don't you identify yourself? hmmmmmmm?

related link: www.socialistparty.net

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And who are you, kev. Why don't YOU identify yourself
by who are you Mon, Jan 6 2003, 9:11pm

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And who are you, kev. Why don't YOU identify yourself
by who are you Mon, Jan 6 2003, 9:12pm

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i am me
by kev - sp Mon, Jan 6 2003, 9:23pm

i am kev squires, member of the sp and sy and i look after the party site. i can be found on the dublin sy stall most saturdays. now are you gonna rise to you own challenge big man? and are you gonna back up your factless slur on the sp? or are you another one of these random loons that makes me stop posting things on this site out of frustration? just when it seemed it was safe to go back in the water...

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Trolling
by Daithi Mon, Jan 6 2003, 9:52pm

Kev-this article would probably be deleted or moved pretty quickly as it's a direct comment on another story (the actual Venezualan report that's about 10 stories down) so it's better to try not get drawn into debating with other users who are simply trying to be rude to you - please do keep posting and ignore the baiting if possible. It's harder for editorial to step in if a full-blown argument has developed from an article (that shouldn't be there in the first place)

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by John - ISN Tue Jan 07, 2003 15:08

Thanks Kev for clearing up the SP?CWI position, its quiet an interesting article. Who is Joffe? He certainly appears to have misrepresented the SP position.

by Steve Kudlak - In this case I speak for myself Wed Nov 17, 2004 09:55 steve.kudlak at cruzrights dot org POBX 2005 Watsonville, CA 95077-2005 (831)457-9754 x2571

The whole ALQ+VEN stuff is shakey at best.
I have some sources in country and haveasked
them about it and there are runours but that is it.
I someone could produce some good solid evidence
then I might take it a bit more seriously but it is
hard to believe at this point. I mean it is too far from
his base in the Middle East and there are little more
than a lefty admiration, wjhich while it nowhere
approaches some of the right winf self admiration clubs among the freepers and friends are not really
good sources of information.

So I will believe independent verification when I see
it ansd so far it is just not there. . So some nice
satellite pics etcs. would be nice. along with some
other goodies.

Have Fun,
Sends Steve