SWSS clashers?

by Paul Tree Mon Sep 16, 2002 21:30

Maybe they could only book a room at the same time, or maybe they were genuinely unaware of the SP meeting, why so quick to nail them?....and....is this really really news?

by me - none Mon Sep 16, 2002 21:44

Dont worry Baffled, i reckon neither will be worth going to. if you must go Socialist at least opt for the Socialist Alternative, the lesser of three weevils.

by badman Tue Sep 17, 2002 01:15

When a boy cries wolf 3 zillion times do you still keep running to see?

by Terry - SWSS Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:03

Paul Tree is right. It is an unfotunate clash, However it is hardly worthy of a news story on indymedia is it? From what i know The spucd have hardly got a monoploy on Thursday 1pm in ucd, if you have it news to me, and i imagine alot of students in ucd. Whether you like it or not our meetings clash. Maybe by next week we could sort it out.That would imply sitting down and talking about it can i suggest 5.45 wednesday at the blob? However with a war threatening, fees to fought and a national student demo to be built it is hardly consructive for your group or mine and even the alternative to be screaming at each other over meeting times.

by Finghin Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:47

The time of the Socialist Youth meeting in UCD was known and publicised well before the SWP postered for their meeting. I hope that this is just a coincidence that the meetings are clashing. Last year we organised our meetings so they would not clash with the SWP or Global Action, I think a repricprical gesture would be appropiate.

by Barrington Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:31

Given that both organisations share broadly similar goals might it not be a good idea to combine both meetings and come up with a united approach to the slightly more important issues raised by Terry SWSS?

by conor - ucd socialist alternative Tue Sep 17, 2002 13:13 conor at ziplip dot com

yes indeed the che (tm) meeting seems to clash with many events this week being freshers.
i wonder who (it wasnt a student) put up that well worn tee shirt accross campus,and more importantly, why wasnt it featuring vi lennin? the only true .....................

by Tom the dashing Tue Sep 17, 2002 13:27

I thought these guys broke away? Well I guess a leopard cant change its spots.

by Freddie Cliff - Sectarian Watch Tue Sep 17, 2002 14:09

"We've organised our meeting for the same time as that of another left wing group, or a campaign or in fact anything we don't control, in a desperate attempt to cut across them... but... but... maybe if we claim that such stunts don't really matter and point towards the bigger picture everyone will forget.

We need to build the biggest possible movement on [insert issue here]! Stop whining about us trying to screw you for petty sectarian advantage!"

The SWP really must think that everyone else have the memories of goldfish. You see, there is a pattern here. This is not an abberation. This is how the SWP operate: Sectarian scheming on the one hand and a hurt request that we all stop squabbling and work together on the other!

I hope that the Socialist Youth and Socialist Alternative members in UCD remember the next time some SWP hack cynically starts on about how everyone should just work together and let past animosities slide. The point is that there aren't past animosities, there is a history of the SWP screwing everyone it can for organisational gain.

by Paul Tree Tue Sep 17, 2002 14:24

Seriously, in the biggest picture possible, with different groups aiming for the one goal......does it really matter that there are 2 meetings on at the same time in UCD?
The Che meeting might interest some and the the swss meeting other people...there are people dying out there for fucks sake but then Freddie its wherever your priorities lie, innit?

by Ruairi Tue Sep 17, 2002 14:36

cop on lads n get organising and active. The more time you spend organising meetings, arguing over them and attending the often futile talk shops, the less time you have for real thought n action. Suits the man!

by Freddie Cliff - Sectarian Watch Tue Sep 17, 2002 15:03

Depends on what you mean, Paul.

Do any of the day to day activities of anarchists or leninists or greens in Ireland matter in the greater scheme of things when there are people dying?

As individual events, meetings, protests, direct actions or paper sales, no. It is only taken as a whole, as a pattern, that they have any real impact or importance.

Within the "whole" of left wing activism in Ireland, does it matter that the SWP consistently try to fuck over other groups or campaigns for their own sectarian advantage? It certainly does matter, particularly when people like yourself who evidently haven't really encountered the SWP in action can't understand why nobody else on the left wants to touch them with a fifty foot stick.

by Paul Tree Tue Sep 17, 2002 16:44

Fredders wrote:
"Do any of the day to day activities of anarchists or leninists or greens in Ireland matter in the greater scheme of things when there are people dying?"

Actually i believe they do. Whatever you may think i believe that doing even the slightest thing that goes against the grain of what our rulers expect is challenging their system. i don't believe we can all stop the ills of capitalism in the next 5 minutes but doing something is better than nothing.

Our Freds also wrote...
"...when people like yourself who evidently haven't really encountered the SWP in action can't understand why nobody else on the left wants to touch them with a fifty foot stick."

Paul writes...
Just because i haven't criticised means i am ignorant of the SWP or anyone else? It seems to me that Freddies enemies are other lefties not FF, FG, PD, WTO, IMF, US establishment, BNFL, IBEC, etc etc etc.....go figure;)

by Freddie Cliff - Sectarian Watch Tue Sep 17, 2002 17:05

The idea that we should all just be friends so that we can concentrate on the "real enemy" is very nice. It is also desperately naive.

The SWP and anarchists or greens all want different things. There are, however, some things which everyone on the left wants. So why don't we all just concentrate on the fact that Monsanto or imperialism are bad?

Well to an extent we all do. I doubt if any activist who uses indymedia devotes more than a small share of their political activity to criticising the actions of other left wing groups. But the points which divide us are also important. Some of those points are theoretical and some of them are very, very practical.

It just isn't possible to work comfortably with a group which is constantly trying to screw other groups or campaigns for a tiny bit of sectarian advantage. Ignoring the fact that a group is behaving in that way would itself be destructive and stupid. If the SWP (in this case and much more often than anyone else on the left in this country, but it isn't always them) are allowed to get away with sectarian behaviour without complaint it just lets them gradually destroy campaign after campaign. One of the joys of indymedia is that it can act as a kind of collective memory of these kind of actions, which will leave all of us better informed about how we can honestly work with other activists.

For the SWP to get away with their method of operation they have to be able to pull their little stunts and then act wounded at the implication that they have done anything wrong. Then those who complain about their antics can be tarred as "sectarian" for "dividing the movement". In actual fact the sectarians are not the victims who complain, but those who pull their little tricks in the first place.

by Paul Tree Tue Sep 17, 2002 17:30

Freddie

Every post you have said that the SWP have ruined campaigns, i have to be bloody honest and say that that has never been my experience (i don't believe myself to be naive), any instances that you would like to share?

by conor - socialist alternative Tue Sep 17, 2002 19:08 conor at ziplip dot com

it may be alright for some to say we all unite behind/with one group or another , but that plays into the orwellian nightmare(think if you will that the swp gained full governmental and industrial power in ireland? uuugh , id prefair gw bush led capitalism!)

as im not a bolshevik , i wont be active in any part of any swp led campaign.one look at where the ussr ended up drilled that one into my head.

im not going to give the "i wont work with that cult of drones" bollocks indymedia left vs anarcho vs green thing, just to say we all have our differences,theyre not insiginificant -and i cant see a huge shift against revolutionary socialism by the ucd student population because the sy and swss are having some bollocks formatted talks on during pubhour

anyhow , im off now to escape the chairmans counter revolutionary activities committee.

see you all at the next youth against racism / anti war/anti nazi/globalise resistance/campaign for a no vote/campaign for a yes vote(insert cover group here) meeting

by K Moran - SWSS Tue Sep 17, 2002 23:56

How could any one write such garbage, is this where the left is at in ireland. perhaps its just people with too much time on their hands who delight in the excitement of SWP bashing.

by Marcos Wed Sep 18, 2002 09:38

The opposition left/right made sense during the French revolution, today it's redundant.
Left and right wing "bosses" in small and big parties--conservative, labour, socialist, revolutionary socialist, the lot--have different ideologies, but the thirst for power is the same.

by Terry - SWSS Wed Sep 18, 2002 09:45

Finghin as tou know room have to be book a week in advance of the proposed meeting. Services don't inform respective societies about the intentions of others. No that is up to the individual societies. As you didn't contact us we were unaware of your meeting. However have the confidence in your politics and just get on with it, you will get a good crowd who won't be won to your ideas if all you keep bleeting is 'Clashers'

Again lets meet up tonight and sort this out. I suggest the blob at 5.45pm you will recorgnise me as i'm wearing a 'Don't Attack Iraq' t shirt.

Again from freddie more verbose posturing hiding a slim attempt at a polemic. Old criticisms in sterile form don't ammount to much. Freddie the essence of the WAR ON IRAQ, the return of fees and building a natinal student demo in the face of political sabotage campaign which the FF student union president is about to embark on is one which will require a certain ammount of co-operation between SPUCD, SA and SWSS. The reason is that to have an impact on 20,000 students a certain pooling of resources is needed. The essence of this is in trotsky's maxim 'march seperately strike together'

i will not reply to this thread any longer however i again stress to Finghin and anyone else lets meet to sort this out.

by LG - independent student activist Wed Sep 18, 2002 15:06

I thought that the SWSS no longer exist in UCD!

Socialist Alternative is the new name of that Society. It was not a 'split' as such, they re-named themselves and they broke all links with SWP.

Really it should be the SWP that are following what SA and SYUCD are up to, afterall they are the two main Socialist groups in ucd.

by db - swss Thu Sep 19, 2002 09:35

wasamarxism you fool recognition does not come from services you little troll!!!!

by Paul Tree Thu Sep 19, 2002 11:21

Hi Fred

i asked if you had any examples of SWP ruining campaigns?

by independent student activist - ucd Thu Sep 19, 2002 16:59

Recognition does not come from services, but services can take down posters of non-clubs or societies.

SWSS is no longer a society therefore they are entitled to take down their stuff

However I think that the SWP should be allowed to organise in ucd, that's called democracy