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Hare coursing savagery held in appalling weather conditions!

category international | animal rights | opinion/analysis author Tuesday December 10, 2013 01:30author by Save the Irish Hare Report this post to the editors

Hares AND Greyhounds being forced to run in appalling weather conditions. Many greyhounds injured...

A true ecologist...
A true ecologist...

The admissions by hare coursing fans have been posted on an internet site, the same site that recentky hosted racist attacks on the Roma community in Ireland. They claim that many greyhounds have been injured owing to the harsh weather.

Below you can see the relevant page from the hare coursing/greyhound racing internet forum known as “Greyhound Nuts” (November 19th) which contains clear references to greyhounds sustaining serious injuries at coursing events organised in recent days due to adverse weather conditions.

The people discussing the problem are coursing fans, not animal welfare people, so there is no question of animal welfare people in any way embellishing the suffering caused to the animals in this situation in the pursuance of our objectives- a typical counter-claim to be expected from apologists for animal cruelty posing as "sport".

If the freezing grounds that have served as coursing venues over the past two months have contributed to so many dog injuries as these coursing fans allege the question arises as to what suffering was inflicted on the hares at those same venues. Dail Deputies, and members of the public, have in the past asked the relevant Minister, Jimmy Denihan, show mercy to hares forced to perform in inclement weather conditions.

Opponents of hare coursing are now urging him, and the TDs will be making the same appeal, to consider suspending the hare coursing season during such spells of freezing weather when the welfare of hares and greyhounds alike are so obviously and indisputably under threat. Though completely opposed to hare coursing we are also urging the Minister to, at the very least, attach new conditions to the hare coursing license obliging coursing clubs NOT to hold fixtures in such conditions, for the sake of hare and greyhound alike. At present, coursing events can be held literally in hail, rain, and snow...and even gale force winds that can blow the hares into the paths of the pursuing dogs.

Here are the claims on the Greyhound Nuts site:
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Topic: Going ? (Read 1518 times)

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soft sod

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Going ?

« on: November 19, 2013, 20:13:12 PM »
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have we all forgotton how hard the ground is.think myself worse now than ever.lots of dogs getting hurt.

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James Coss

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2013, 20:45:37 PM »
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your right the ground is still hard in the midlands and east,

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LiamL

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2013, 20:46:11 PM »
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you're absolutely right......serious injuries in most fields every week.
Weather forecast for the next two weeks is cold and dry so no respite in sight in terms of injuries.
A great year for everyone weatherwise unless you have coursing dogs!

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what if

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2013, 22:40:07 PM »
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if the fields got a half hour of rain befor coursin it wud be the finest
ive seen dogs run in alot worse weather and nothin happen to them good dogs at that
when dogs get hurt its jus boils down to bad luck most of the time...

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finkennedy87

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2013, 23:01:59 PM »
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ground still hard but we cant wrap them up either. I was at receiving end of it last wk end but that's coursing. think some fields need a lot more than halve hour rain to be honest wat if.

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what if

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 00:51:18 AM »
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Ah sure i know and the day ya want rain it nevers happens...Hard ground has alot to do with toes and rists bein injured...But alot boils down to hard luck....

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paddy burns

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2013, 14:45:07 PM »
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ground in borris today must have been hard
bad luck on connections of injured dogs
but when i was out walkin fields here in the east this morn i thought anybody runnin dogs today is mad unless its different down south but lasts nights rte forcast seemed to give a blanket frost

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LiamL

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2013, 16:21:32 PM »
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that's true Paddy but we're almost in December and can't keep them in cotton wool any longer. More hard frost given for tonight so this weekend's meetings will be dangerous from a ground perspective.......what can you do??

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paddy burns

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2013, 17:12:23 PM »
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liam i honestly wouldnt run know its expected this time of year but id take a chance and hope things improved
i remember owners withdrawing dogs from champion stks on the mornin in clonmel not so long ago because they thought too much of their dogs

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soft sod

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2013, 18:12:20 PM »
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lads ,started this topic last week.think its time ICC looked at this.no point running for the sake of it.maybe recommend clubs give straight runs up,a line etc.

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kilt

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2013, 18:16:13 PM »
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Wat are the icc going to do bout it they cant change the ground

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orchardlad

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2013, 18:44:44 PM »
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I was in Borris-In-Ossory today and as much as there was a frost last night which didn't fully lift and which put coursing back half an hour but that wasn't the reason for the hard ground in my opinion. The ground is just hard simple as, we simply haven't had enough rain.

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Pat Egan (Tipp)

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Are u with de Tuohy crowd!?

Re: Going ?

« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2013, 19:06:58 PM »
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Quote from: orchardlad on November 22, 2013, 18:44:44 PM

I was in Borris-In-Ossory today and as much as there was a frost last night which didn't fully lift and which put coursing back half an hour but that wasn't the reason for the hard ground in my opinion. The ground is just hard simple as, we simply haven't had enough rain.

I'd agree with that, it was as hard yesterday as today with no frost on Wed night. We just haven't had enough rain simple as that, usually you'd never see anything like that many injuries as there was today in Borris. We've ran there every year since they started in that field and had an odd win in it too and it's a tough long field but it's well maintained and normally the ground isn't too bad but today was just unreal for injuries.

Has to be down to the fierce dry summer and autumn and the fact that there just hasn't been enough rain to get the moisture down into the sod and soften it. There were a good few withdrawals in Kilsheelan at the weekend too and at most meetings up this side so it's not just Borris had the problem.

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James Coss

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2013, 20:12:55 PM »
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Every meeting I have been at this year it has been the same.

Hard ground and dogs getting injured.

I have been asking for clubs to water and it has not happened yet. This weekend I am heading to Killrush, this field is soft and it shows in the quality of dogs running in the stakes.

There is no dogs worth anything going to run on the type of ground that was in Borris.

Clubs please water.

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I'm not raciest I'm just territorial.
If I don't like you stay away.

shane-1

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2013, 20:51:11 PM »
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the problem today was where the shy was around the escape and the hare pen the shadow from tat never let any sun in at it and tat was where my bitch broke two bones in her foot and had to be put to sleep after winning her sf hard think to do and hard think to except but it was best for her.

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Topic: Going ? (Read 1518 times)

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Pat Egan (Tipp)

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Are u with de Tuohy crowd!?

Re: Going ?

« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2013, 23:51:21 PM »
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Quote from: James Coss on November 22, 2013, 20:12:55 PM

Every meeting I have been at this year it has been the same.

Hard ground and dogs getting injured.

I have been asking for clubs to water and it has not happened yet. This weekend I am heading to Killrush, this field is soft and it shows in the quality of dogs running in the stakes.

There is no dogs worth anything going to run on the type of ground that was in Borris.

Clubs please water.

k

Think to be fair Jim it's been a bigger problem up this side of the country, I don't think our more southerly brethren got the prolonged dry dry spell we got thru Sept & Oct. Talking to the lads down that side their land isn't half as hard as it is up around the midlands.

At this rate of going even Tuohy will be fecking hard! And Crushers tells me that's a bog!

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paddy burns

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2013, 00:17:02 AM »
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hard frost here since 8.30
just been talkin to lifford sec and no frost there

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Tom Brett

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2013, 00:18:32 AM »
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There are very different things going on within 20 miles of one another......

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Unbelieveable that the UK's top dog trainers are such an honourable group, far more honourable than the Queens horse trainers.............

Martin Sweeney

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2013, 17:50:18 PM »
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I was out training the hares in Old Kilcullen today and the ground was perfect for coursing. Hope it stay's that way.
The amount of work clubs put into meeting's is untold and when the weather gets a grip for the worst it quadruples the members effort to course.
Best of luck to all clubs with their meeting's and hopefully the weather does not effect them.

Martin

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Benny Cake

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2013, 18:24:07 PM »
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Fair play to Knockgraffon for having the foresight to cover the field last night. Made for a great days coursing today, cover her up again tonight lads & we'll look forward to more of the same tomorrow!!

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balotelli

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2013, 18:30:53 PM »
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What's going well there Benny ?

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Den Morrin

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There are lies, damn lies and then there are stats

Re: Going ?

« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2013, 18:35:15 PM »
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How much cost for covers for a field ? Would neighboring clubs buy a set between them and share during the season currently or do they reply on getting Clonmel covers etc?

Den

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horndog

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2013, 18:54:12 PM »
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€800 +the vat would do it and you would have them forever more

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Benny Cake

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2013, 18:55:41 PM »
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Quote from: balotelli on November 23, 2013, 18:30:53 PM

What's going well there Benny ?

I liked My Dream and Kingsmill Damson (who are meeting in the morning) in the Oaks, we have a runner in the Derby but outside of my bias for our lad I thought Rubys Magic & the Skellig dog were impressive. Derby & Oaks are very open, great coursing there, fantastic hares....

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Den Morrin

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There are lies, damn lies and then there are stats

Re: Going ?

« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2013, 00:33:09 AM »
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Quote from: horndog on November 23, 2013, 18:54:12 PM

€800 +the vat would do it and you would have them forever more

That dosent sound too bad I know Irish weather can be unpredictable but if covers protected the course it would negate injury risk of hard ground to some extent maybe something the ICC could support in form of loan to clubs to help fund such purchases.

A grand spread out over 10 year loan wouldn't be hard on a club and they could probably even get a sponsor for such an amount.

Den

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Tom Brett

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2013, 00:50:08 AM »
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Sponsors would work...

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Unbelieveable that the UK's top dog trainers are such an honourable group, far more honourable than the Queens horse trainers.............

paddy burns

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2013, 01:02:41 AM »
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Quote from: Tom Brett on November 24, 2013, 00:50:08 AM

Sponsors would work...

great gester tom fair play to ya

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Anastasia

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Re: Going ?

« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2013, 01:04:22 AM »
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Illegitimi non carborundum

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Related Link: http://www.banbloodsports.com

"sport" to a certain type of Irish person...
"sport" to a certain type of Irish person...

More fun on the coursing field
More fun on the coursing field

Terror of the hare...a laugh for the punters.
Terror of the hare...a laugh for the punters.

A fine sport for the family...that's what coursing fans say THIS is...
A fine sport for the family...that's what coursing fans say THIS is...

author by Mike Novackpublication date Wed Dec 11, 2013 13:21Report this post to the editors

Please, this is NOT intended to be in any way, shape or form in support of this so called sport of watching muzzled dogs chase down released captive hares. But don't you realize how silly you make yourselves sound when you talk of these dogs being made to chase hares under conditions of dangerous footing.

Have you never lived with a dog? Have you no conception of what sort of animal a dog is? Apparently not.

a) You don't need to make a dog chase anything. If you don't want a dog to chase down prey you have to restrain the dog. Those dogs want very much to be chasing those hares. The dogs know the footing isn't good, know they might slip on icy ground, etc. Weather conditions have to be really horrendous before most dogs want to stay in from it.

b) Those dogs would very much prefer doing this without those muzzles. Keeps them from sinking their teeth in. That is the kind of critter a dog is.

Understand what I am saying? The hare coursing people aren't making the dogs do anything. Is your objection JUST to the very artificial conditions of "hare coursing"? In other words, please tell us:

If this (so called) sport were somewhat different, if it didn't involve released captive hares or muzzled dogs, would you still object? In other words, if people simply took their dogs out to fields where hares were expected to be, didn't keep their dogs on lead but allowed them to act as dogs will when they find prey, and watched this, do you still object? If so, explain the basis of your objection.

author by anti crueltypublication date Thu Dec 12, 2013 02:32Report this post to the editors

The point is...while dogs might very well chase hares if they happened to come across them while freely running about on a lazy afternoon, the hares would likely escape. In coursing the hares are captured and taken to the venues to be coursed. That's the principal objection to it.

Simply bringing your pet dog or any dog into a field and letting him run around isn't going to pose much of threat to any hare.

Nature is cruel etc...hares are killed on roads or maybe sometimes by foxes. That doesn't justify humans being deliberately cruelty to them...making them suffer, any more than the fact that people are killed on roads could justify murder.

The adverse weather conditions DO lead to more hares being killed and greyhounds do not choose to enter those venues. They are driven there in vans and cars to perform for the punters.

A dog may also "decide" to jump over a cliff to its death because it mightn't know any better. But would this fact justify a human deliberately throwing him off the cliff? And would a responsible human being, dog owner or otherwise, not feel somewhat obliged to grab that dog before he jumped off the cliff to his death...for the sake of the dog?

I think the answer is yes, and likewise a responsible dog owner will not subject his dog to very obvious (and easily avoidable) risks of serious injury or death.

But hare coursers are not responsible dog owners, any more than they are concerned about protecting our wildlife heritage.

coursing fans say hares "enjoy" this...
coursing fans say hares "enjoy" this...

fun for all the family, say coursing clubs...
fun for all the family, say coursing clubs...

author by Mike Novackpublication date Thu Dec 12, 2013 13:59Report this post to the editors

And this demonstrates that.

"A dog may also "decide" to jump over a cliff to its death because it mightn't know any better. But would this fact justify a human deliberately throwing him off the cliff? And would a responsible human being, dog owner or otherwise, not feel somewhat obliged to grab that dog before he jumped off the cliff to his death...for the sake of the dog?"

Our knowledge is different in degree from that of the dog. But this indicates a belief of difference in kind, that animals have no brains at all as opposed to ones capable of sufficient thought for the way they were evolved to live.

That much they do know, the ground is slippery and I might fall and hurt myself. Unless never before in their lives they experienced icy conditions, but a human is in the same position. Perhaps with less excuse we always have a spate of accidents the first bad weather day of winter.

Look closely at how animals behave. The tom cat really wants to go out and hunt. Do I really know better that it is dangerous out there (we have coyotes, fisher, raccoons, etc. even bears but those aren't a threat to cats)? What I mean by that is it justified concluding that the cat DOESN'T know? Watch HOW it goes out the door. If the door is simply opened, cautious in the opening, stop, sniff, look both ways, go out slowly ready to turn and dash back in. But if I am standing out there having a smoke and open the door, comes right out. Or back when we had a goodish size dog going out the door, go right out with him as if "with big buddy here I don't have to worry about mid size predators".

The point I am making is that sure, not MY sort of brain. But brain enough for the needs of a small predator that has to know "besides being a hunter I could also be hunted, watch out". The cat IS making a choice. Some days, after going out, pretty soon "yuck, weather is nasty out here, let me back in"

PLEASE --- this is NOT intended to be in support of "hare coursing" which is almost as bad as when "clay pigeons" used to be live trapped birds being released. Disgusting. But I also find the attitudes expressed about animals and the natural world disturbing. Yes of course, the hounds are not transporting themselves to the field (human agency) BUT they almost certainly want to go. While they would really really prefer to be out there without those muzzles on I am willing to believe the thought ability of dogs sufficient that when seeing that muzzle picked up "oh goody, I'm going to get to chase hares." If you aren't willing to believe that. I think you haven't observed how an animal like a dog behaves. EMOTIONS they are certainly capable of, capable of wanting things.

Hare coursing is certainly cruelty to the hares. My comments were addressing your attitude that it is cruelty to the dogs from THEIR point of view. Except of course, for those darned muzzles.

And as for that "Nature is cruel" I'd say "Nature IS" (that "cruelty" is an inappropriate concept when applied to Nature). I am expressing the position that there is no "higher/better" and I do not aspire to be "above Nature". Maybe my "religion" is different than yours.

author by Stick to the issuepublication date Fri Dec 13, 2013 01:46Report this post to the editors

Joe Mc...release of mink of extremists has no bearing on the rights or wrongs of hare coursing or the case for its abolition. It doesn't make the hard ground softer or make the mauling of hares by greyhounds or the savgae slow killing of hares in pre-coursing blooding sessions any less painful. All that stuff about Israel, Iran, various conflicting ideologies... ISAR etc etc. all utterly irrelevant to the topic, which is the well documened and proven cruelty of a specific practise: hare coursing.

Related Link: http://www.banbloodsports.com
author by Hare Preservationpublication date Fri Dec 13, 2013 02:05Report this post to the editors

This is about dogs AND hares. The hare's welfare is every bit as important as the dog's. My point is that the dogs are not simply roaming around and just stumbling upon hares...they are taken by conniving humans (who manipulate those dogs to suit themselves and their own interests) to the venues to course and terrorize hares.

And greyhounds are NOT choosing to run on hard ground unsuited to running (in hailstorms, strong winds atc as also happens with coursing) ...they are taken there by humans and suffer as a consequence, regardless of what is happening in their brains or whatever.

Let the hares live out their very short lives in peace. They are gentle, inoffensive animals.

The greyhounds can be taken to other venues...with no live lures involved and ground conditions for running that are not liable to kill or severely injure the dogs. You can say they "like" the fierce weather. So? Kids "like" devouring loads of sweets that rot their teeth, which is why parents step in to caution and restrain them. Is that "interfering with nature"?

What happens in the wild between various animals is a different matter. Man is absent from that scenario. But as I've already said...just because you have killing and suffering in the wild does not justify humans DELIBERATELY seeking to artificially to create such suffering and pointless killing for kicks. Natural or accidental death or suffering V Deliberately caused and UNNECESSARY death and suffering. Big difference... from any reasonable perspective,

You might see a fox savage a hare in the distance. That doesn't mean one should grab the next hare you find and kill it inhumanley just to add another dead hare to the pile to complement or upstage the fox's behaviour.

 
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