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9/11 and The Left

category international | anti-war | feature author Sunday September 11, 2011 21:08author by T Report this post to the editors

The War of Terror = The New Class War

On this 10th anniversary of 9/11 attacks there are many things to reflect on and in this article we are going to focus on the relationship between 9/11 and the political 'Left'. Today 10 years later, the public particularly in the US seems quite dividved as numerous polls show that a majority of US citizens don't accept the official story and a significant portion believe the government was involved in one form or another. The mainstream media though is still very much on page with the official version of events. The details of the topic itself are divisive and two clear camps have arisen with opposing views and very little common ground between. At this stage many people are simply tired of discussing it and wish to move on. This article does not intend to dwell on the mechanics of the event itself but examine the wider political effects.

featured image
Icons from the War of Terror
At this remove, there are several clear groupings around the interpretation of 9/11. We have of course the US government which used 9/11 to usher in the War on Terror, a war in which Cheney and Rumsfeld said may last indefinitely. Behind them are the corporate and state media as well as most governments especially those of Western Europe who whatever doubts they may have had, quickly fell into line when George Bush declared. 'You are either with us or against us'. As you move to places like Russia, parts of Asia and Africa, they are not so forth right, but they all in common eagerly instigated their own Wars on Terror and imposed draconian measures on civil liberties and greatly increased represssion.

Next we have the relatives of the victims of 9/11 and this group itself is divided up into those still trying to pursue the truth largely by investigative and legal means. Interestenly the first responder firemen have been barred from the official 10th anniversary commenoration event.

The conspiracy theory crowd are portrayed in the media as simply loonies and they usually to focus on the more bizzare, but this grouping is actually quite diverse and it could be broadly split into three categories. In the first category are the actual loonies who attempt to stich together an incoherent set of facts and events tied to a narrative that is quite illogical but gives a simplified view of the world. Next there are the Jews did it camp, which tends to attract a certain element of the far-right, anti-semitic, illuminati types. The third group who get the least mainstream media attention, are the investigative types who really are trying to understand the mechanics of the day and the lead up to it. One could perhaps label them the scientific analysis / deep politics crowd.

Then we have the public and it is actually quite hard to judge what their true opinion is, but in polite conversation it would seem most people accept the official line but given the fact that polls (US polls at least. No data for other ones) do not reflect what one tends to encounter in daily interactions then I suspect a lot more people have deep reservations about the official narrative and are very reluctant to publically voice these concerns for fear of being labelled a nut case.

Against this backdrop, we have the bigger picture of society at large and the set of democractic states or whatever name they happen to label themselves. These are largely made up of developed countries and many of the developing ones that form the main players in the global capitalist system. A common meme presented particularly by the most blatant war mongering states (i.e. US and UK) is that they are progressive, liberal, democratic and like to present the image that they are the flag bearers of human rights and are a civilising effect on the rest of the world. In this mix sits the Left which is rather undefined but most people would recognise that it represents the liberal tendency. To those Left of the Left since the Left is actually central really, we have those who rightly make criticisms of the prevailing order and these are what remains of the much stronger socialist arm of the Left that existed in the 1960s and 70s. However the Neoliberal take over of society has be so complete that the Left is largely shutout of the mainstream and has little influence on events and the economy anymore. It still serves a minor role and is used by the system when necessary, when it needs to put out a humanitarian or liberal gloss on things and it is at this point that the Left is given a brief platform on the media stage in the form of opinion pieces or 'experts' on news shows. A classic example was during the invasion of Afghanistan when the rhetoric of standing up for women's rights was used as part of the justification for the invasion. There have been many examples since then such as the recent concern for civilians used to justify well eh the bombing of Libya which has resulted in many civilians deaths not suprisenly and enabling the blatant oil grab and general plunder of the sovereign wealth fund of around €150 billion.

So we now turn to the relationship of the Left to the events of 9/11

The Left's Position
The position of the Left on 9/11 is quite straight forward. Pretty much right across the spectrum the official story is accepted which is that 19 Arab hijackers conspired and set out from some caves in Afghanistan and under the noise of the spaghetti soup of intelligence agencies (CIA, NSA, FBI, DIA etc) pulled off the attacks on the Twin Towers, the crashing of plane into the side of the Pentagon and the hijack of another plane over Pennsylvania. Days later were the Anthrax laiden letters but this chapter has largely been forgotten and although formed part of a continuum of the attacks, there was a bit of a hicup when it was discovered the anthrax (trillions of spores in one letter) were and could only be manufactured in one of the US biological weapons labs. The vast majority of the Left has stuck to this policy over the past 10 years with a few occaissional exceptions.

What the Left does say or at least the socialist wing, is that US government used 9/11 to justify the two illegal wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They rightly recognised the brutality meted out, the attack on civil liberties and the demonisation of Muslims. Indeed the far Left led much of the anti War movement in the early years reaching its pinnacle on Feb 15th 2003. In the US the movement collapsed completely with the rise of Obama even while it expanded the wars and upped the drone attacks thus exposing contradictions in their initial opposition.

The Left and the Iraq War

Prior to Sept 11th, Bin Laden's image appeared regularly in the media relating to earlier attacks elsewhere and it was naturally prominent after the attacks and into 2002. Then about mid way into 2002, Saddam Hussein got a lot of presss and his image started to be appear more regulary whilst Bin Laden's faded out. By late 2002 it was clear to the dogs on the street that a war was going to be launched against Iraq and the US and UK governments were raising one false accusation after another including a bogus claim about the importation of yellow cake (Uranium oxide) from Niger. The defining moment was when Colin Powells made his speech on Weapons of Mass Destruction to the UN which was composed completely of lies and which Powell years later described as 'the lowest point in my life.' What was interesting about this period is that the Left especially the far Left challenged all of these lies one after another and exposed their falsehoods. They were quite aware there was an orchastrated campaign to justify the war and given that the media served as the mouthpiece of the lies from the US and UK governments, the implication was that the media was in on this which it was and as the most recent revealvations of the Murdoch press momentarily demonstrated was how the capitalist apparatus works together while giving the impression that they are separate and independent. Thus the Left while never using the word conspiracy clearly were implying there was a conspiracy to launch an aggressive war and they were later proved to be 100% correct.

Meanwhile in Ireland during this period the Left here knew and stated it so that the government here was lying about the transport of US troops through Shannon and the assumption was that all other utterances related to the Iraq war were pretty much suspect. It would have been much the same in other countries too. Again they were a short while later proved correct.

So from this we observe that the Left everywhere were being very skeptical which is healthy and they were challenging government statements and checking the facts for themselves. This is what you would expect.

The Class War
The Class War is a central piece of the Left or at least the far Left. The more central Left nominally represented by the Labour Party (Ireland & UK) don't mention the Class War anymore. The Class War is a really good analysis and description of the assault on the working class (i.e. those in salaried jobs) by the owning or capitalist class. It gives really good insights and is very predictive. To those outside the Left and especially the generation who have been told there are no classes anymore, we're all just consumers in a global market place, trying to introduce the Class War sounds very much like a bizarre conspiracy theory and indeed it does. The main elements are that capitalists conspire to smash unions, undermine the strength of the working class, to divide them, sowing discontent, promoting racism and other divisions and using the media to present capitalist ideas and block the voice of Left and the ideas of socialism or anarchism or any alternative other than to present them in a negative light. It is only when you become familiar with the structures and workings of society that you realize there is both a structural element to this and a personnel one where individual capitalists really do make a conscious effort to crush and or bash unions. In all writings on the Class War there is the implicit recognition that events and trends in society are components of the objectives of the Class War waged by real people.

The Legacy of 9/11
The 9/11 attacks are probably one of the greatest TV spectacles ever and it was this media imagery that gave it strength and power. There is so much to be said about the events before and after. Rather famously there was the AIPAC document written by the neo-cons a few years prior talking about the New American century and the need for a new Pearl Harbour event to galvanize the nation. Also towards the end of the rather politically subdued 1990s, the anti-capitalist movement burst on the scene in the Battle of Seattle out of which Indymedia itself was born followed by numerous other summit demos leading up to the extremely repressive events around G8 summit in Genoa in July 2001 where all the main world leaders met and there was huge media coverage around the fact that surface-to-air missiles were installed in case of terrorist attacks from the air. It was clear to anyone at the time that the Class War was in full swing and people were waking up. There was a buzz in the air and more importantly there was hope.

Then came the attacks but what was probably more frightening was when Bush announced: 'You are either with us or against us'. Within hours and days practically every country stood up and swore allegience to the War on Terror. In Ireland we even went as far as having a day off for the mourning of the victims while US didn't even get the day off. A blanket of fear was laid down over the US population and absurd levels of security. For any sane person who knew anything about the US role in the world, they realized that these people were going to get very mean and brutal. They didn't disappoint. Within days the US Patriot Act was passed. This was a 600 page document that effectively shredded most of the rights in the US constitution. People were urged to go shopping by Bush, the CIA instigated secret renditions and opened up a torture centre in Guantanamo and numerous other black sites around the world. The Orwellian Dept of Homeland Security was born and in the meantime food parcels were briefly dropped on Afghanistan followed by daisy-cutter 4,000 lb bombs. But everyone was scared. Everyone who was anyone in the media or politics had to either write a piece or at some point announce how awful it was and condemn the attacks and they were awful. There was some mention that this was blowback for the US foreign policy in the Middle East but it got little mainstream attention.

The US itself seemed to go into fever pitch and a sea of flags sprung up across the country flushing out waves of fresh recruits for the wars in Afghanistan and later in Iraq. People were asked to spy on either other and no-flylists appeared. Many a muslim was picked up and held for months indefinitely, frequently tortured and others deported.

Immediately after and really continously since then, there are two things to note. The first is that the fear was kept going with stupid announcments of fears of possible further attacks none of which materialized and the instigation of different color coded alerts. In the years that followed the countries with some of the stronger anti-war movements such as Britain and Spain got their own mini 9-11s and this was used to keep the export fear and keep it going with the benefit of keeping all the partners onboard. There was also a long string of high profile arrests of various individuals and small groups where apparent attacks were prevented. However the followup showed in the vast majority of these cases they were sting operations setup and instigated by the FBI in the case of the US and MI5 in UK and they usually entrapped young clueless muslims who had no real contact with any real group and were hoodwinked into thinking they were joining real terrorists cells. The second point, was that the 9/11 card was played many times and not just for the wars. Bush used it for his re-election and even got Bin Laden to make a cameo reappearance in a new video which helped shore up his support.


A trip down memory lane to the forgotten Anthrax letters. We have all forgotten about the anthrax attacks which came within days of the 9-11 attacks but it was during this time that the Patroit Act was passed. During the anthrax scare, many Capital cities in Europe were given scares too and we even had our own one here in Dublin. In a way it showed we were all in this together because we were all threatened.



In this podcast from Guns & Butter uploaded here, Dr. Graeme MacQueen does a good job of recounting what happened and went to the trouble of investigating the story behind it. This is a really comprehensive account and it is rather amazing that this story never got the attention that it deserved.

The original podcast can be found at Guns & Butter, July 20th 2011 or Click to Listen


But in many ways the most significant and effective thing was the With Us or Against Us statement. That put down an invisible but clear marker and everywhere knew they would be in real deep trouble if they crossed that line.

Overall the legacy of 911 has been a massive increase in repression worldwide, the further advance of corporations to central place, and promotion of surveillance, torture and fear.

The Left on Board
One of the most remarkable things is that the Left has stuck to the official story for so long. It is really surprising that you have this entire movement that normally are quite good at analysing and questioning things and yet when it came to 9/11, all these facilities seem to have been switched off. For a group that quite consistenly are willing to state that governments regularly lie, deceive and cover up and are corrupt; we seem to have a magical switch of normal behaviour when practically everything said by the US government about the actual events are accepted verbatim.

Whether you accept the offical fairy tale or not, you would expect in such a big pool of people a certain amount of diversity of opinion and a range of arguments. What is also lacking is any decent investigation other than early on, the type of articles that validated quasi establishment explanations.

But intrigue and conspiracy are not actually that always rejected. For example, it is widely accepted that the assassination of Martin Luther King was carried out by the FBI. It is also widely known and documented the US institigated the famous COINTEL-PRO operation against all Left, Environmental and Social Justice movements, as well as the Black Panthers during the 1960s and 70s and this included disruption, widespread use of informants, provacteurs and went as far as murder of key individuals through the mechanism of police shootouts. Then in the 1980s, although perhaps slightly less well known, we had Operation Gladio in Italy which was a regime of terrorist bombings and kidnappings including the kidnap and subsequent murder of Italian Prime Minister Aldo Moro, the Bolgona train station bombing where 76 people died and other incidents. It became known as the Strategy of Tension. At the time it was blamed on the radical far Left and was successfully used for to keep them out of power in Italy and generally suppress the working class and their movements. Subsequently in the early 1990s, it came to light through the courts during an investigation of the death of three police and which led to the unravelling of the information. As a result it is on the public record and it showed that all of these attacks were carried out by the far Right and instigated and setup by NATO and the CIA through this network of Gladio cells. The whole thing was established back in 1958 and it orignally was part of a stay-behind NATO in the event of a Soviet invasion but quickly become a tool to keep the working class in their place.

Then in late 1990s in the US, details of Operation Northwoods were declassfied. This was a plan which had been signed off by the Joints Chief of Staff in the 1960s during the era of the US entanglement with Cuba, although never actually put into operation, to launch a series of terrorists attacks on US soil and blame it on the Cubans and the central piece of the plan was to shoot down a US airliner with Americans on board and blame this on Cuba too. I guess the logic is if you want to go to war and some of your own people are going to die, then why not just have some of those deaths up front.

There are many other sinister and vile plans and operations that were hatched and carried out by governments over the years and the so-called 'democratic' ones have been some of the worst offenders. However it should be pointed out it is generally not the regular members of these governments, but shadowy figures in military, intelligence and almost always top ranking individuals from the capitalist class of the given nation.

Thus we have a long history of intrigue, double dealing, conspiracy, outright lies and deception and murder and at this point much of it is undisputed but yet for the Left, 9/11 stands out as an exception like a bright beacon in the dark night. And it is not as if nothing happened afterward. The Left is quite clear that much of what has happened then is just a continuation of empire and domination and few people except the clueless or those in complete denial, recognise that US policy is and has been a blight on our collective humanity and a step backward.

The Left on the Ropes
So then what is happening? What is the explanation? It is this authors view and probably others too that the Left has been so battered down since the heydays of the previous century that it is clinging on to the last bit of influence and respectibility that it has. It used to have its own extensive network and media presence but it hardly makes a showing anymore at least within the mainstream media where public opinion is shaped and the vast majority of people still get their news and understanding of the world. When 9/11 hit, the anti-globalisation / anti-capitalist movement was effectively stamped out. It matters little if 1% or 5% know the real nature of things. All that matters is the vast majority don't and are badly informed or not at all.

At the G8 in Genoa in July 2001, the capitalists laid on massive repression and with the death of Carlo Giuliani, people knew the capitalists were now getting very serious and people were going to be brutally dealth with and not many were obviously willing to come forward for that. So in effect the Left and everyone else hunkered down after 9/11.

The lunatic arm of conspiracy theorists had always existed but now they were given a huge gift and they gladly accepted it. The problem now was anyone questioning 9/11 in the days and weeks after could in the ultra hyped up hysterial atmosphere be labelled as being with the terrorists and a bit later this morphed into an even worse potenital outcome, which was to be labelled a member of the lunatic conspiracy theorists. Thus so long as you didn't challenge the centrality of the events and causes of 9/11, you were okay. That was why it became relatively safe to challenge the lies and fabrications around the Weapons of Mass destruction story on Iraq because in reality 9/11 was the real justification used. People will recall that within the US it was implied but never actually said that Saddam Hussein was friends of Bin Laden and that he was in some way responsible for the attacks even though there was not a shred of evidence. But in the US, where all the media is in the hands of the Right wing, facts have little standing. Polls at the time showed that many believed these distortions which thereby goes to show the priceless value of propaganda.

And to this day this would appear to be still the situation. The Left refuses to get sucked in or to comment on the whole ordeal. They inherently know that they were not strong enough to withstand the onslaught that would have occur and I believe they would have been torn apart by it all.

I believe it was a mistake because collectively it was not an honest thing to do and in effect it allowed others to stake this ground. If you take the message of the conspiracy theory factions and excluding all the less coherent stuff, the message is that a group conspired to carry out 9/11 so as to setup a totalitarian regime and to start wars. They are very keen to stress that 911 is the justification and there is no doubt that it has. Who caused it can be put aside for one moment. However what they are in fact describing is very similar to the Class War. It just comes from a different angle. Another faction says the same thing but tend to stress that there is some group that has perfectly choreographed many events and wars but the sub message is that there is little hope and there is nothing you can do. I don't accept this message because I don't accept that any plan can go perfectly well. People, groups and organisations do make mistakes. But the difference between the two factions are quite subtle and you will miss it completely if that entire discussion is walled off.

Depending on what thread of reasoning you follow, there is a money or finance element to 9-11. Again there are two approaches to this. The traditional Left takes the Marxist view of the explanation of capitalist and the role of finance and so forth. Some parts of the conspiracy theorists come at it from the banking elite and the role of money. Unfortunately there are far too many of the types that seem to be hung up on the roles of Jews in banking, funny symbols and New World order of a strange variety. But in there is the serious matter of how does money itself setup the structure of the economy and other questions like, what is money, how does it come about (hint: through issuing debt), who has authority to print or generate money, the role of central banks and so on. These questions are really important today as we are in the midst of the global financial crisis. Even today the traditional Left is still coming at it from the Marxist view and describing the trading of CDOs and all sorts of derivatives but they are still not asking the questions on the nature of money itself and it would appear that they have ceded this ground because they know it borders the conspiracy theorist camps. Yet there are quite a few very respectable individuals doing great work in this area through their own writings and investigations.

It is therefore my opinion that the Left has managed to give up a lot of terrority and consitutency because they have been afraid to challenge events for fear of losing credibility and yet at a time when the whole world should be turning to the Left for answers and solutions they just aren't getting the resonance that they should.

The world is a very complicated place and a lot of stuff is very very nuanced. So often when people step outside their own domain of knowledge they tend to view things in very simple forms. So many times conversations around 911 start with the phrase: 'Its quite simple really, there is no way that....'. These are usually theoretical discussions based on assumptions people make that ultimately are used to back up their side of the argument. Rarely do I encounter one based around an examination of actual facts and analyzed in the way you might expect a forsenic detective to go about their work. Instead people have their eye on labels and they really fear being made a social outcast. There is a very dishonest effort time and time again to lump all explanations other than the official way as the same. A few moments thought would quite clearly make it obvious that there is an almost infinite set of possibilities and therefore theories and there is presumably only one theory that is correct. The beauty of the current public or rather allowed public narrative is that there are only two and these are black and white. In fact if we examine the media on the vast majority of important political events, they attempt to present them as black or white. This is the way the invasion of Libya is presented. In the case of the London riots, we have rioters bad, police and state good. All other explanations and contexts are irrelevant. We are trained to not think and simply react in an infantile fashion. It is the Right wing capitalist media that setup this false choice and its the only game in town.

So returning now to the way 911 is presented in the media, it is the official (fairy tale) story which every respectible person and authority believes or the loony conspiracy one. This is a retake on: Are You With Us or Against Us. As pointed out above it very nicely lumps the infinite set of explanations into just one and thereby enables the media to give you just two choices and in the way it is presented, the Left has no choice or rather no stomach to dare puncture this false setup.

On a final note it is quite clear that the War on Terror or rather the more properly named War of Terror is really just the Class War and this is reflected on the ground because this card is being played time and again against activists from the anti war movement, to social justice, environmental, animal rights; against strikers and to the media demonisation of protests against the bailouts and austerity. What is amazing is that the capitalist class have been able to have this new offensive running for over a decade now and yet no-one on the Left appears to have called it out for what it is, the new Class War in new clothes.

author by Serfpublication date Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:07Report this post to the editors

And it mirrors my own experiences discussing the topic with members of the left. The MSM have become very proficient at framing the debate in a limiting way on topics like libya or 9/11

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to question aspects of the official account of events. There are many inconsistencies.

The thing that I find is off limits to discuss is the fact that we spend such an inordinate amount of time discussing the 2753 deaths of 9/11, yet nothing like that amount of time is given over to the (probably millions of) deaths brought about by US imperialism both before and after 9/11.

Its as if its rude to discuss the deaths of millions of poor brown people because 2753 bankers and their employees were killed in retaliation for some of those millions of deaths.

Its almost as if only american / white / affluent lives mean anything and brown peoples lives are just meaningless dirt.

If we were to have proportional coverage for every life lost in the war on terror then white people who died would hardly ever get a look in. What a strange and self serving version of reality the majority of us live vicariously through the corrupt distorting lens of the media.

welcome to the matrix!

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:19Report this post to the editors


..you put the finger on the nub.

The collective superiority complex of the paleface WASP Anglo-European inheritors of centuries of colonial rapacity and its loot stashed offshore from Barbados to Swizerland.
They've more or less exhausted the planet, and now are turned homeward to pillage the former beneficiary populations of their fatherlands in Europe and the US. And with other economic models sabotaged or outpaced the field is clear for global distillation of the wealth into ever-ramifying shell companies under the brolly of Wall Street, the City of London, and the other hives where blood is miraculuosly converted to financial honey. But its easier to diagnose than treat. Its impervious to reason, and adept at rationalisation. A self-induced cull seems our best hope.
Maybe we should start a Collateral Damage Party?Start with a memorial to the Unknown Civilian. We've too many commemorating warriors.

author by pucapublication date Thu Sep 15, 2011 00:21Report this post to the editors

Serf, you're wrong about those who died in the WTC. The vast majority were clerical workers and most of those were working class. "Bankers" work on Wall St several blocks away. A good number were immigrants and plenty of firemen etc died too. So to dismiss those who died in NYC as 'bankers' tells me you are not really paying attention.

author by Serfpublication date Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:53Report this post to the editors

2573 white people is still a drop in the ocean of innocent brown people killed by US imperialism and sanctions puca.
I'd much prefer if they had crashed into wall street. I've said as much.
(But then silverstein wouldn't have been able to claim double on asbestos filled white elephant buildings then! ;-)

fuck it, here's a list: (not verified)
http://tbtf.com/unblinking/arc/2001-09a.htm

A veritable who's who of rapacious capitalism
plenty of banksters and lawyers worked from the towers.
at a glance I see citigroup, morgan stanley, leman brothers, bank of america, Fox, and many others.
Do you see many puppy dog rescuing services there puca?

author by A Freemanpublication date Thu Sep 15, 2011 14:14Report this post to the editors

"2573 white people is still a drop in the ocean of innocent brown people killed by US imperialism" says 'Serf'

What about the black and asian people killed on 9/11, did they have it coming too? What about 4 year old Juliana McCourt on one of the flights that hit the WTC, did she have it coming for being white and Irish and a plane passenger? You truly are a despicable worm if you think that.

Many of those "innocent" brown people are lovely individuals like the late Osama and cut-throats (literally) like al Zarqawi in Iraq, I suppose you shed tears for them on a daily basis, pathetic!

author by Serfpublication date Thu Sep 15, 2011 15:59Report this post to the editors

"2573 white people is still a drop in the ocean of innocent brown people killed by US imperialism" says 'Serf'

A.F.:What about the black and asian people killed on 9/11, did they have it coming too? What about 4 year old Juliana McCourt on one of the flights that hit the WTC, did she have it coming for being white and Irish and a plane passenger? You truly are a despicable worm if you think that."


If you want to go toe to toe comparing gruesome and tragic little girl deaths then the ratio is truly not in your favour "A freeman".
I'll see you one 4 year old julia and raise you two. PER DAY as a direct result of the war started by the US in afghanistan.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/09/afghanistan-wa....html

In fact here's your very own general petraeus apologising for 9 such little "accidents" (but "oops sorry" doesn't really cut it does it?)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704728004....html

One problem though, brown people's horrific deaths seem so unimportant to the "allies" that they often don't even bother counting them
http://www.unknownnews.org/casualties.html

A.F.:"Many of those "innocent" brown people are lovely individuals like the late Osama and cut-throats (literally) like al Zarqawi in Iraq, I suppose you shed tears for them on a daily basis, pathetic!"

Again the ratio of nasty people like zarqawi to innocent women and children is really not in your favour "A freeman". I would probably shed tears for those much larger number of less privileged poor innocent brown kids dismembered in US wars though yes. So should you.

How come your bile is reserved for the people who don't mourn the affluent in lockstep? What about all those who don't give two shits about these other brown people's deaths (many more). I presume after you have finished with me you will be giving them an even larger dressing down in proportion to the much greater number of innocent brown people's child deaths involved?

And I presume you'll save some of your bile for your own government who spent the last 100 years kicking hornets nests all over the world in the name of profit and imperial power, whose actions inevitably led to that moment on 9/11 when all those white people you and the MSM shed so many tears for were killed in payback.

for more info, check this out:
http://www.flagrancy.net/timeline.html

author by Des - Nonepublication date Thu Sep 15, 2011 20:11Report this post to the editors

The life of every human being is of equal value. What happened on 9/11 was a appalling crime. SO WAS THE DOWNING OF THE IRANIAN AIRBUS BY WASHINGTON AND THE CAPTAIN OF THE CARRIER GOT A MEDAL. SO WAS THE DOWNING OF THE CUBAN AIRLINE, BY A 'CUBAN EXILE' WHO HAS RESIDED IN THE USA EVER SINCE. To the imperialist powers and the corporate media, the people who died on 9/11 were worthy victims whereas the passengers on the Iranian and Cuban aircraft were unworthy victims who lives were NOT of equal value.

author by Thoughtful - nonepublication date Thu Sep 15, 2011 20:36Report this post to the editors

I was just wondering why the far leftists on here spend so much time and effort worrying about a terror attack ten years ago, brown and half brown babies, who's the biggest martyr/criminal in far away wars?

If this effort was to be channeled into doing something positive for Ireland and our white, brown or yellow kids future you could be commended but as it is you are a laughing stock. Let those foreigners abroad (of all persuasions) take care of their own troubles, we have enogh of our own.

No wonder people vote FG/FF/Labour.

author by Leftypublication date Fri Sep 16, 2011 08:11Report this post to the editors

caring about the deaths of thousands of women and children at the hands of imperialist warmongers and cynical capitalist exploiters (in search of lucrative weapons and rebuilding contracts and oil and other natural resources and strategic pipeline routes ) does not preclude caring about disadvantaged people in Ireland.

It is completely illogical to assume it to be an either or situation. I can still care about local affairs as well. In fact the kind of people who care about local matters are usually the same people objecting to atrocities abroad. ALL the atrocities and not just the one that happened on 9/11.

And they are usually NOT the people voting for right wing political parties who don't give a shit about the poor and want to privatise everything and dismantle social services so they can give more of our tax money to their banking friends.

author by An DDpublication date Wed Sep 21, 2011 20:46Report this post to the editors

The fake "Arab Spring" bullshít seems to have completely paralysed the Left Wing parties in Europe and forced them to stand idly by, while NATO subjects the Libyan people to genocide. Its very sad really. How can the Working Class have confidence in a leadership that are so easily fooled by NATO oil pirates?

author by A Freemanpublication date Wed Sep 21, 2011 22:29Report this post to the editors

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

How does airstrikes against Gaddafi loyalists constitute a genocide, DD?
[unnecessary insult hidden by moderator]

author by An DDpublication date Thu Sep 22, 2011 01:03Report this post to the editors

NATO are bombing Libyan civilians, the Libyan Army and Police, along with other Libyan civil servants. The Nato Nazis hit a hospital in Sirte today. This is genocide, as defined by the Genocide Convention:

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

author by modpublication date Tue Sep 27, 2011 20:16Report this post to the editors

topic is :

9/11 and the left

There are threads specifically about Libya elsewhere on the site

[mod]

author by Tpublication date Sun Aug 26, 2012 23:33Report this post to the editors

Over 40 experts in high-rise architecture, structural engineering, metallurgy, chemistry, physics, explosives, and controlled demolition share their professional expertise and insights about the events of 9/11. Additionally, 8 psychological experts discuss why proving controlled demolition of the three World Trade Center skyscrapers can be so difficult for individuals to accept.

This video of interviews conclusively shows that all three World Trade Center buildings were destroyed in controlled demolitions. And yet here we are 11 years later and entire sections of the population are in denial. But this is not a surprise because clinical psychologists point out that denial is one of our first reactions and the compelling evidence showing the official story is simply not true and at the same time the conflicting and constant messages from the authority of the government and mainstream media causes severe cognitive dissonance.

Why so many people refuse to look at the evidence is because they know if it is true that it would totally shatter the world view and they are simply not able to emotionally cope with this. It is a direct challenge on everything they believe it and they simply fear it and find it unbearable. They are also afraid of being ostracised, feeling vulnerable and one of the ways of protecting themselves from this is to use anger and use ridicule to try and discredit the messenger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=...vhnzQ

Caption: 9/11 - Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out


Related Link: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32279.htm
author by Joepublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:03Report this post to the editors

There was no precedent for what happened. 757's hit the WTC, both (presumably near identical designs) fell as they did. WTC 7 and Deutshe Bank, different designs with different damage (so our sample size for that is two at best, not enough to draw any conclusion). Pentagon, once again no precedent.

We know 757's flew into these buildings/ chunks of other buildings fell on them. Just because they were not damaged in the way some people said they "should", does not mean that it didn't happened that way in real life. It's rather hard to test for, and no one's going to be doing actual full scale tests.

However, barring constructing fifty or so full scale models and flying a like number of 757's into them, we will always lack the sample size to test whether they "should" be damaged differently. We must go by what we saw, not what we think "should happen".

I'm reminded of the old story that the bumblebee "shouldn't be able to fly". Yet it does. The buildings "shouldn't" be damaged like they were, but they were.

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:03Report this post to the editors

Surely we should be concentrating on the consequences and cynical use of the deed..rather than the event itself.

Its a bit like fixating on the Reichstag fire and whodunnit..while ignoring the solidification of the military/industrial Nazi dictatorship for resource-wars(liebensraum)in the east.

First try to solve(or at least understand)the bigger problem.

author by Joe Mcpublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:54Report this post to the editors

Joe , A serious investigation is still needed – we can’t simply go by what we see.

The conclusion from the US national commission set up to investigate the 911 events was that they had been the work of a dangerous terrorist organization called Al Qaeda . In 2001 many observers of course hadn’t forgotten the fact that the terrorist organization had originally been set up by the CIA to work against the Soviets in Afghanistan , most at the time assumed however that the group had subsequently “gone rogue “ and had turned against their creators. Working under that same presumption the national commission didn’t even seriously try to explain why Al Qaeda operatives and future hijackers ,despite being on the CIA watch list , were allowed to travel freely around the US in the months leading up to the atrocities -this was at a time when intelligence indicated that a major Al Qaeda attack was imminent .

Over the last year the world has had a chance to see that Al Qaeda has never broken its links to US intelligence agencies . It is currently acting as a CIA proxy force in Libya Syria and Lebanon . Whatever about bumblebees , you don’t need a degree in aerodynamics to “see” that the CIA is funding and arming the group that is said to have perpetrated “the greatest act of terrorism ever committed on US soil” . Surely that needs to be explained?

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 13:13Report this post to the editors

..in their forest of crimes. People will focus on such dramatic details.

Meantime, here is the bigger picture, which should(I think) be the focus.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=32474

author by JoeMcpublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 13:48Report this post to the editors

911 was in my opinion more than a dramatic detail . For ten years the US government, military and media have exploited the three thousand plus deaths as well as the Al Qaeda threat to justify attacks across the world on countries that are of strategic interest to the US. They have also used the 911 attacks to justify an unprecedented crackdown on civil rights in America itself.

The American public - which does retain a deep belief/faith in America being a just society - has up until now largely believed what it has been told about 9/11. This faith has been put to good use by US foreign and domestic policy makers. but it could easily rebound on them if the American public ever starts to seriously question the official line ..

author by Joepublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 13:56Report this post to the editors

More than just a detail. I'm talking about the mechanics of the act. But I believe its quite possible that the US intelligence community allowed certain actions to go ahead. There is also the question of the missing USAF interceptors? Why did it take so long for them to arrive?

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 14:15Report this post to the editors

..than the uncovering of the actors behind this act to address the problems of America.

Should it be revealed that Cheyney set off the detonators, and Jeb bush planted the charges(if that was the modus), it wil have no effect, if the American population does not shed its blinkered exceptionalist hypernationalism, and recognise the unsustainable nature of its neo-feudal economic model.

All that would result, at best, is a staged show-trial; and resumption of business as usual. I'm afraid the problem is considerably bigger than 9/11.

If the American public have not got the ethical faculty to recognise the criminality of its expanding war agenda...and the intellectual acuity to penetrate the deep immersion in propaganda lies that is their public discourse..they have zilch to offer in the way of 'justice'.

To concentrate on this easily derided scenario suits the smoke-blowing agenda of the Pentagonian Strangeloves. You would do more to enlighten them by publicising the origins and designs of the Rand Institute. or introducing them to the writings of Joseph Heller.

I've visited a few of the 9/11 'truthers'...their analysis leaves a little to be desired.

9/11 may be more than a detail, but it remains a symptom rather than the actual centre of the rot. Again, to draw a parallel, its like focusing on the Reichstag fire and ignoring the smoke from Belsen's chimneys.

author by W. Finnertypublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 15:43Report this post to the editors

Reply to opus diablos at Mon Aug 27, 2012 14:15 ...

I would agree that it's much more important for the people of the Republic of the United States of America -- and the rest of humanity as a whole -- for the United States to tackle the root-cause of their BIG problem: which is the ongoing violation of their own Constitution, by their own Government (Executive, Legislative, and Judicial).

Constitutional government was NEVER, EVER meant to operate in that manner. That it is doing so, is a completely clear sign of extremely serious corruption in government, and of extremely serious government crime: of the kind that is heading us all straight in the direction of global totalitarianism, or a thermonuclear WW3 possibly.

Crime is crime, and government crime by the United States of America is BIG crime.

The Republic of Ireland Government (Executive, Legislative, and Judicial) has exactly the same "constitutional crime" problem as that of the United States more or less: except, of course, that the Republic of Ireland's ability to commit global crime is very, very tiny in comparison to that of the United States.

Endlessly debating the symptoms of the core problem, while ignoring the root-cause, does not seem very clever to me. Nor does it appear at all helpful in the present circumstances.

Related Link:
http://www.humanrightsireland.com/PrimeMinisterCowen/9M...l.htm

author by leftypublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 20:43Report this post to the editors

Still, no harm in watching the documentary, is there?? It's interesting.

Personally I'm of the opinion that at the very least, they let it happen and influenced / facilitated it happening, knowing it would serve their interests and it's very likely that at a minimum, building 7, which sustained only minimal fire damage and maybe a bit of debris hitting it, was "pulled" thus also making lots of money on insurance (double payout!!) for silverstein and his friends and saving him a fortune removing asbestos from those buildings.

The official report was a complete joke. It didn't even deal with building 7.

Sure it probably won't change much if hard evidence surfaced that it was a false flag as the problems are deeply systemic, but it sure would be fun to watch them squirm out of that one!

Regardless of the instigators, I think Serf summed up the complete 9/11 hypocrisy pretty well:

"You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to question aspects of the official account of events. There are many inconsistencies.
The thing that I find is off limits to discuss is the fact that we spend such an inordinate amount of time discussing the 2753 deaths of 9/11, yet nothing like that amount of time is given over to the (probably millions of) deaths brought about by US imperialism both before and after 9/11.
Its as if its rude to discuss the deaths of millions of poor brown people because 2753 bankers and their employees were killed in retaliation for some of those millions of deaths.
Its almost as if only american / white / affluent lives mean anything and brown peoples lives are just meaningless dirt."

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 21:08Report this post to the editors


..why keep on about 9/11 when the the Viet Nam mafia are back in the saddle and galloping towards the mushroom farm.

We can get back to the autopsies when the rampage is checked. Not that I'm optimistic on that front...its looking increasingly bleak. Not so much planet of the apes, as planet of the ostriches. Dont look and it won't happen.

author by Tpublication date Mon Aug 27, 2012 22:21Report this post to the editors

Re: 9/11
There was no precedent for what happened. 757's hit the WTC, ...

Thats the point. There was. The designers stated that they designed for the building to be hit by more than one airliner. What's more many of the people in the video are experts in construction of steel frame office blocks and other who are demolition experts who have brought down very large builds from stadiums, to hospitals and multiple story office blocks and they are saying this could not have fallen the way they did other than by demolition.

But it seems Joe knows better and figures it is best to ignore the evidence and makes totally bogus assumptions. The way you make the assumptions and then provide inferences from them you would think the people who built the WTCs in the first place were idiots and knew nothing about building design.

Re: I can go along with that
Surely we should be concentrating on the consequences and cynical use of the deed..rather than the event itself...

No the deed itself needs to be clarified for once and for all. 9/11 was used to shape public opinion so as to give the justification for all that happened afterwards, including the two wars where over 1 million people have died and depleted uranium now badly contaminates both Iraq and Afghanistan.

It was also the whole reason used to introduce the Patriot Act in the USA which effectively shredded the rights of citizen. And to this day it is continued to be used for the continual erosion of civil liberties and to spy on all US citizens. [ NSA Whistleblower Details How The NSA Has Spied On All US Citizens Since 9/11 - http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-whistleblower-willia...012-8 ]

What you are effectively saying is that yeah we need to look at the bigger picture and the structure of society but it is really only the converted on the Left who do that. The ordinary non political person is not aware or normally interested in all the geo-political and military capabilities of governments but through horrific events they do lend their support to the use of these tools and so they are not concerned about military buildup because they have been led to believe it is a good thing and it is protecting them. Same for all the spying. However if they were to discover or realize that the reasons for all this are false, then it follows that they would then be concerned as to what all this is about and perhaps begin to realize they are not in the arms of the protective state but in the grip of a totalitarian corporate state.

Conclusion:
What we see here in the above two comments was a) an inability to actual go and check the evidence and listen to what people who design buildings like the WTC and who demolish buildings and people in closely related fields. It is simply denial. A real fear that one's World view might be challenged and have to change.

In b) we see a similar response except it is more typical of the Left where people seem to unconsciously feel that traditional Left narratives are the only ones, one of these being Class Theory and thus this 'conspiracy' is in competition with it. The Left is totally unable to grasp the fact that governments do sinister and bad things. After all they kill people in wars don't they? But the Left is unable to take on board that any modern political theory of society and geopolitics really needs to integrate the two. They seem to believe that you can only come to a Left via class theory. The nutty and incorrect side of many of the theories of 9/11 is extremely useful for those who perpetuated it because it acts as a very effective block to people even considering the facts by virtue of the social power it has to stop people stepping outside the group and risk being ostracised. This is what the Left is really afraid off that what little credibility they have will be shredded in the corporate + state mainstream media. They are of course in this very weak and terrible position because their strength, power and influence have been very effectively dealt with by the counter-revolution of the Right and Neoliberal attack over the past 30 years.

And one of the weird effects of this on the Left is that we have the daily occurrence in all factions of the Left where they continually and rightly accuse governments of lying and quite often prove it, but when it comes to 9/11 they not only accept every word of the US government on "the facts" of 9/11 but they hold it up as holy faith and eagerly and strenuously enforce the official version of events.

author by W. Finnertypublication date Tue Aug 28, 2012 08:49Report this post to the editors

Reply to T at Mon Aug 27, 2012 22:21

As far as I'm concerned, far too many people on the political "Left", the "Right", and the "Centre" appear to have a major problem with accepting the fact that governments -- by a very, very long way -- are by far the biggest source of crime in the world; and, that the overall size of global government crime, is many, many times that of the overall size of global Mafia crime for example.

There are well known remedies for government crime, and several constitutions (including the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland) have such remedies built into them.

Unfortunately, the Money Power Psychopaths (as I see them), in close co-operation with the three main branches of the Government of the Republic of the United States of America -- Executive, Legislative, and Judicial, and particularly with the Judicial Branch -- have, through decades of corruption, slowly but surely, and slyly, undermined the Constitution of the Unites States of America to an extent that the "remedial instruments" embedded in their Constitution are no longer operational.

Thus, governments such as that of the United States of America, can commit massive amounts of crime (against "the people") with impunity: and they do!!

Albeit on a much smaller scale (in terms of global crime), the Republic of Ireland Government (Executive, Legislative, and Judicial) is mimicking the Government of the United States of America at the present time, as it has been for several years now.

"One donkey pisses, all donkeys piss!!"

And, in this particular case, "they", the corrupt government thugs that is, are of course pissing on "the people".

There is ONLY one solution that I know of: and that is for "the people" -- of the Left, the Right, and the Centre -- to take their constitutions (the SUPREME LAW of the Land, that is) back out of the hands of the corrupt government criminals who have hi-jacked and usurped the constitutions from "the people": and to do so through the use of peaceful and lawful means (which would include the ballot box).

Related Link:
http://tinyurl.com/9xrxkb6

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Tue Aug 28, 2012 09:55Report this post to the editors

That response confirms my point...those who think 9/11 is central to American fascistic behaviour are either very young, traumatised, fixated engineers or just plain determined to decoy away from the context. You can correct me by adding your own self-definition. You might start by letting us know where you see yourself on the quantum cloud spectrum of Left Right and Centre(see Orwell, Politics and the English Language, you can google it). i.e. define your wooly terms.

Before the towers hit ground zero I was thinking 'Reichstag fire', as were others who are politcally and historically literate, so hold your lecture for your podium.

I don't know what class of 'ordinary non-political person' you meet that are so trusting of politicians. I find the generall public considerably more cynical and suspicious.

You erect a straw man Left and play skittles to your glad heart's content...an exercise reminiscent of so many leftist 'intellectuals' I suspect you are looking in the mirror as you type.

Fair play to you for assembling a fine articulate response..shame about the false premises. Its one of the hazards of lassoing a hobby-horse.

author by Felix Quigley - 4internationalpublication date Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:58Report this post to the editors

Reply to opus diablos at Mon Aug 27, 2012 14:15 ...

he correctly says:

"I would agree that it's much more important for the people of the Republic of the United States of America -- and the rest of humanity as a whole -- for the United States to tackle the root-cause of their BIG problem: which is the ongoing violation of their own Constitution, by their own Government (Executive, Legislative, and Judicial)".

This is indeed something never discussed on Indymedia, which is the US Constitution, one of the great gains for Humanity.

Also that Obama took America into war in Libya and did so against the Constitution. He broke the Constitution because he did not get the vote in Congress.

That is a clear step closer to Fascism in America by Democrat Obama.

Related Link: http://www.4international.me
author by JoeMcpublication date Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:54Report this post to the editors

The focus for the thread should be 911 and the left. If the subject matter of the thread had been the Reichstag fire, it would have been perfectly acceptable to discuss the Reichstag fire on the thread. If a nineteen-thirties left wing paper had evidence to support the contention that the Reichstag fire had been the work of Nazi provocateurs , wouldn’t the paper have had the duty to bring the matter to the attention of the German public?

If my use of the term “left wing ” is too woolly ,I’ll define it for the purposes of this comment as pro the working class and the oppressed , anti the capitalist order and anti-imperialist

Opus writes that “the problem” is bigger than 911 , but when did anybody on the left say that “the problem” consisted only of 911 or say that it should be “the” focus point for left wing activists? “Forget about wage slavery, racism , imperialist war , human rights comrades , forget about everything else and concentrate on 911” .
Nobody on the left has or would ever say such a foolish thing , and to imply that they have done so is to make a straw man argument against the left

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Tue Aug 28, 2012 13:28Report this post to the editors

First, felix...you seem to address me with something I didn't write...I think you confuse my comment with Mr Finnerty...???

Joe, are you also posting as T??

Its T I addressed. If you cannot see the parallels with the Reichstag fire and the 9/11...goodnight. I contend its a valid comparison..if you feel I am off topic, report me. Otherwise leave the moderator to edit.

As for straw man arguments...T projected opinions unstated and did a fine demolition job..on said phantoms. Just as you imply I claim anyone on the left claimed anything specific. This is imputing an argument I did NOT make. I suggest you look up straw man..and that Orwell essay.

Either you are trolling, or confused, but continue to make my point of the sterility of circling ground-zero obsessively as conditions deteriorate, and the consequently justified imperial agenda accelerates.

What 'left' does that serve, using your definition?

If you are replying, clarify if you and T are twins...and stick to one ID. Otherwise I'll conclude you are just trolling, and leave you to your ashpile.

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Tue Aug 28, 2012 13:56Report this post to the editors

...it indicates how little respect your President has for democratic praxis..

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=32503

..which I believe is an element of your constitution.

Tell me thats all loco-weed.

author by JoeMcpublication date Tue Aug 28, 2012 15:02Report this post to the editors

I didn’t attempt to edit what Opus wrote , just to refute his claim that people are "fixating" on 911 or “ circling ground-zero obsessively”. And Opus does make these claims on this thread .

I’ve checked to see where T is supposed to have projected unstated opinions in his article or in any of the comments he made , but can’t see anything .At no point at all does he project anything unstated -or state anything unprojected for that matter -as far as I can see.

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Tue Aug 28, 2012 17:04Report this post to the editors

..is that you confirming that you are T?

'..what you are effectively saying...etc..' is one exampole of projecting a subjective argument...and then the '..really only the converted on the left..' copperfastens it..

Do go read that Orwellian essay..it will serve both your thinking and your clarity of delivery. Need I provide a link?

author by JoeMcpublication date Wed Aug 29, 2012 07:37Report this post to the editors

Sorry if I don't make myself clear. To tell the truth ,I can't work out what you are saying either- especially all the stuff about T in your last comment .

If you think the Orwell piece could help you make your point , by all means send a link. . Perhaps you could quote any passages that are relevant to this discussion .
thanks........ Joe

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Wed Aug 29, 2012 08:14Report this post to the editors

..if you're incapable of Googling and can't work out my English I'll refer you to serf's original comment directly below the topic opener.

You probably wont be able to decypher my immediate agreement with him/her...but serf makes the point quite clearly.

Slan leat.

author by JoeMcpublication date Wed Aug 29, 2012 08:34Report this post to the editors

Opus, I can't understand why you are referring me to Serf's original comment to this thread , which praised T's article calling it "thought provoking". You are saying the opposite - that articles questioning the official line on 911 are fixating on the atrocity at the expense of the "bigger picture" .

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Wed Aug 29, 2012 08:57Report this post to the editors

Try reading his fifth sentence again.

'The thing ..that I find..we spend an inordinate amount of time...discussing... 9/11..etc...'.

Thats the point I have been(however clumsily) affirming. You continue to confirm it.

author by W. Finnertypublication date Tue Sep 25, 2012 06:18Report this post to the editors

A recent interview with Jeff Steinberg (of the Executive Intelligence Review Newsmagazine) strongly suggests that "the British are stirring the pot for a 100 years ('religious') war".

The interview covers "the character of the accelerating religious warfare in Southwest Asia, the false notion of an American empire", and touches on "the role of prince Bandar bin-Sultan".

"The United States is being used as the strong-arm of the British", is among the main suggestions of this interview.

The video interview can be seen at:
http://larouchepac.com/node/24008

Related Link:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/102060?comment_limit=0&...92089

author by Tpublication date Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:22Report this post to the editors

Finnerty,
I don't know whether you realize that Executive Intelligence Review is a LaRouche website or whether you know anything about the man, but he and his followers are a very sinister outfit. They have a long history of anti-semitic, far right fascist tendencies. They have been implicated in large scale fraud of their donors, and many of the theories which center around the idea of British rule for the past 2 centuries are full of incoherent, illogical and just plain wrong arguments and ideas.

They grew out of the far Left in the late 1960s / early 1970s and then evolved via their tactics into far right extremists whipping up hatred and according to LaRouche Watch have been during this time involved in encouraging death squads in Central and South America. [In fact one of their key people at one stage in the 80s was the nephew of the head of German intelligence and they seem to be able to use these contacts and relationships for their activities.] These people are not just your typical right wingers as they draw their support from all layers in society and given their early Left history, are very converse with being able to use the language of either the Left or Right to draw in unsuspecting individuals.

Now because people like LaRouche naturally say 9/11 is a conspiracy, there is a strong tendency for people to automatically believe the opposite because otherwise they feel that they would be perceived to be somewhat supportive of him or other dubious people. But this in itself is not a proof one way or the other. In the same way that the British National Front BNF a few years back latched onto the issue of Peak Oil because they realized there are opportunities in there for them, their backing or support of Peak Oil does not change the facts of it. They just hopped on the bandwagon.

Related Link: http://lyndonlarouchewatch.org/
author by W. Finnertypublication date Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:21Report this post to the editors

Reply to "T" at Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:22

I know a bit about Lyndon LaRouche from various Internet sources I have looked at in recent years, and came to the conclusion (long ago) that like everybody else I have ever met in my life, he is in all probability a human being who is a mixture of strengths and weaknesses: just as I believe myself (and all other human beings) to be.

I have tried to propagate information about the Jeff Steinberg interview (at "Tue Sep 25, 2012 06:18" on this thread) primarily because his (Mr Steinberg's) research results are well in keeping with the wholly independent research I have been carrying out, on my own behalf, entirely at my own expense, in connection with the issue of "government crime": since mid 1998.

Please note that included among the very wide range of "government crime" I am attempting to challenge, is the fact that the Republic of Ireland Government (Executive, Legislative, and Judicial) continues -- well over 6 years after it was written and presented to them through numerous channels (throughout the past six years and eleven months, or so) -- to completely and criminally ignore -- with 100% impunity -- the ENTIRE CONTENTS of the "To Whom It May Concern Letter" (written by my former GP, Dr Michael McCavert) at the following address:
http://www.humanrightsireland.com/index.htm

Changing the subject slightly, I do not really know for sure if, as you claim, the LaRouche people "are very converse with being able to use the language of either the Left or Right to draw in unsuspecting individuals".

I do know though -- for sure, I believe -- that there are an enormous number of people around the world, other then Lyndon LaRouche, who I believe are doing a far better job than Lyndon LaRouche is ever likely to achieve (assuming it is his wish to do so, if it is?): when it comes to wilfully drawing "unsuspecting individuals" into the web of extremely serious lies and deceptions which the bulk of humanity is at present very deeply entrapped in (and very obviously unable to free themselves from just now); and, that you need look no further than the "main stream media" to find plenty of such people: people who are "up to their eyes" -- both by act, and by omission -- in promoting such nasty, shoddy, and socially destructive activities on a daily basis, in places such as (for example) our own RTE.

Related Link:
http://www.humanrightsireland.com/PrimeMinisterCowen/9M...l.htm

author by JoeMcpublication date Tue Sep 25, 2012 13:01Report this post to the editors

Unsuspecting people who turn away from the mainstream news media should avoid hooking up with La Rouche's well-financed outfit . Like all confidence tricksters La Rouche sometimes has to tell the occasional small truth in order to propagate the Big Lie

I can remember a few years ago trying to work out how many “moves” it would take to come across a link to The Protocols Of the Elders Of Zion by following La Rouche site links . It usually took about three moves. A La Rouche article would link you to a slightly more conspiratorial website to his own , which would link you to an even more conspiratorial site , which would in turn link you to another site that would have a link to the Protocols.

author by W. Finnertypublication date Tue Sep 25, 2012 17:35Report this post to the editors

Reply to "JoeMc" at Tue Sep 25, 2012 13:01

Personally, and I hope you will not mind me saying this, I can't agree with your statement relating to "Unsuspecting people who turn away from the mainstream news media should avoid hooking up with La Rouche's well-financed outfit".

I have been looking regularly at "La Rouche's" web sites for the past couple of years or so, and I believe he is entirely correct in connection with a number of extremely important issues which he frequently talks and writes about.

I have also found a number of things which I believe Mr La Rouche is seriously incorrect about, and which I personally would not agree with, or go along with; plus, I have found some other things on his sites which just would not be "my cup of tea".

Personally, I, like many others I suspect, tend to treat Internet web sites (of all kinds) a bit like supermarkets which sell a very large range of products: I take what I want, and leave behind me on the shelves all that I don't want: on the day. And, I don't normally stand outside the door of the supermarket advising people to steer completely clear of the place, simply because I don't like some of the products on the shelves, and/or believe some of them might be damaging (for one reason or another). Most supermarkets these days sell alcohol for example: which I believe is an extremely dangerous substance for SOME people; yet, and with due regard for the fact that the sale of alcohol in supermarkets is legal, and despite the fact that there are no warnings whatsoever of any kind on the bottles and cans regarding the matter of alcohol being a mind-altering drug (which carries the risk of addiction and major problems for a significant percentage of those who drink it), I personally would not advise potential customers to avoid entering such places.

That said though, if you feel there is anything that is dangerously false and/or misleading about the Jeff Steinberg interview (at "Tue Sep 25, 2012 06:18" on this thread), I still believe you should state your beliefs on this thread: for all our sakes.

I don't believe there is any of so smart that we don't ever make mistakes.

Also, I suspect Mr Steinberg may well be the kind of person who: 1) would appreciate it if people pointed out any mistakes he may have made (to him), and 2) that he would be entirely happy to correct them, if he believed he was seriously mistaken, or misleading, in any way.

Related Link: http://tinyurl.com/bse6p98

author by W. Finnertypublication date Fri Jun 21, 2013 01:50Report this post to the editors

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The above excerpts are from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68LUHa_-OlA

Related Link:
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