Breaking News. More Significant Findings at Tara

by Rational Inquirer Sat Dec 01, 2007 18:50

Do you have any photos of this?

by Damien Sat Dec 01, 2007 21:22

If there are no photos to support this claim I think it can be filed under "fiction"

by M. Ni Bhrolchain Sun Dec 02, 2007 16:45

Are on their way to Indy shortly

by M. Ni Bhrolchain Sun Dec 02, 2007 17:10

The following press release has just been issued.
To fill people in: on Friday afternoon I got a
call from a supporter to say that he had a tip off that megalithic art
had been discovered at the souterrain at Lismullin.
I did not want to go to press without full confirmation so I had to wait
for photographs. Thank you campaigners/protesters for the wonderful
shots from yesterday. These are their photos given to me last night.
I also had to await confirmation from the expert archaeologists. I
received that in the last short while. I have had a lot of help in
writing the press release from an archaeologist so I am taking no credit
for the work or the photos.
Well done everyone and thank you - you know who you are.

PRESS RELEASE
MEGALITHIC ART FOUND AT LISMULLIN SOUTERRAIN

The Save Tara campaign has learned that a decorated stone bearing
megalithic art similar to that at Newgrange and Knowth (of Neolithic
date c.3000 B.C.) has been found incorporated into part of an Early
Historic souterrain currently being dismantled as part of the M3
archaeological works in the vicinity of the henge at Lismullin, in the
Gabhra Valley, County Meath. The nearest example of megalithic art is to
be found in the passage tomb of the Mound of the Hostages on the summit
of the Hill of Tara AND In terms of style this example also bears a
remarkable similarity to that found in this monument.

The decorated stone was noticed on Friday (30 November) by campaigners
who took the accompanying photographs over the weekend. It exhibits a
series of motifs commonly found in passage tomb contexts - concentric
circles, nested arcs and zig-zags. It is likely this stone was robbed
from a nearby passage tomb during the construction of the souterrain in
the early centuries AD. Indeed, it has been suggested that the large
mound in the grounds of LismullIn house may be that of a passage tomb.

The promontory fort of Rath Lugh (under temporary preservation order)
overlooks the henge (a declared national monument) and the souterrain
complex that have been unearthed at Lismullin and the
discovery of the stone is further evidence of the importance of this
area and its continued use through the millennia of Irish history.

The excavation of the henge and the souterrain continues and will
probably be completed before Christmas. This will allow the NRA to begin
the construction phase of the motorway in this delicate and sensitive
area of the Gabhra Valley.
The motorway will pass within 20/30m of the huge monument of Rath Lugh
despite NRA assurances that it would be 110m away from it.

The EU is taking Ireland to the European Court of Justice because of
their ongoing breaches of various environmental directives in
particularly in relation to Environmental Impact Statements. EU
Environment Commissioner Dimas said in a recent press release:

"I am disappointed that Ireland has not accepted the Commission view
that improvements are needed in its legislation on impact assessments in
order to better safeguard, and give the public more say in decisions
affecting, its rich archaeological heritage, and to better guarantee
that industrial projects will be comprehensively assessed".

Save Tara campaigners are asking the EU and the Commissioner to take an
injunction against the Irish Government to stop all attempts at
construction in the short disputed section of the M3 in the Gabhra
Valley until the ECJ has completed its deliberations on this case.
Photographs available here:
http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u167/muireanntemair/...2007/

The Stone

Souterrain area Lismullin

2 The artwork

A closer look

Another close up

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain Sun Dec 02, 2007 17:17

No fiction this time.

Anolther view

close up again

The detail

zig-zag pattern

The context - view from souterrain area

by digger Mon Dec 03, 2007 14:02

It's not unusual for mechanical diggers to be used on archaeological sites nor is it 'bad practice' per say. Digger drivers are often highly skilled and all work using diggers on sites is usually monitored by an archaeologist. Campaigners are just undermining their other valid arguments by shouting about mechanical diggers being used on sites.

by digger Mon Dec 03, 2007 14:05

...and by the way souterains are not Neolithic as stated in the article. They are broadly early medieval in date. Getting your facts wrong also undermines your arguments.

by M. Ni Bhrolchain Mon Dec 03, 2007 15:39

Digger said
... and by the way souterains are not Neolithic as stated in the article. They are broadly early medieval in date. Getting your facts wrong also undermines your arguments.
It says:
"The decorated stone was noticed on Friday (30 November) by campaigners
who took the accompanying photographs over the weekend. It exhibits a
series of motifs commonly found in passage tomb contexts - concentric
circles, nested arcs and zig-zags. It is likely this stone was robbed
from a nearby passage tomb during the construction of the souterrain in
the early centuries AD. Indeed, it has been suggested that the large
mound in the grounds of LismullIn house may be that of a passage tomb."

It does not say that souterrains are Neolitic - it says AD. I am well aware of the date of souterrains. In fact the press release from the campaign does not use the word Neolithic, the stone is megalithic, confirmed by an expert now and by the NRA archaeologist.
Neither did I mention a digger - and yes, in certain cases diggers are necessary but there have been nothing but diggers used at Tara where one would expect best practice - this is not best practice.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I'd like to add the following that I put on the SaveTara Yahoo group (which is down so it hasn't gone through)
Hi all,
The court was quite fascinating today. The next date is 21st January but in the circumstances it seems unlikely that this date will see the end of it at all. In fact that may be adjourned as well. We shall see.
There are some serious problems regarding "disclosure" of certain documents. Enough said. If people want more information they can mail me privately.
Thanks to RTE reporter Richard Dowling for his continuing interest and for being in court today to hear the whole thing. He will hopefully visit the stone at Lismullin as well. No camera outside the court obviously as there was no case happening. We had the place to ourselves today - very quiet and strange.
The eminent archaeologist George Eogan was on site at Lismullin this morning first thing apparently - I didn't get to talk to him. But he spent a lot of time there with Donald Murphy of ACS.
I heard from a journalist who rang the NRA that the archaeologist Ronan Swan who works on Lismullin (son of the late and lovely man, Leo Swan) that he agrees that the art dates from the same time as Mound of the Hostages and Knowth/Newgrange. So the fuss was rightly made.
The stone may have been damaged when placed in the souterrain and there may be another piece in the area.
But - Sean O Neill, the NRA PR spin doctor is accusing the protesters of damaging the site when they went in. Now this is serious - two names appeared on a Yahoo group message taken from i don't know where. That is why I did not put any names on my mail of yesterday when I thanked them. I hope their naming does not get them into trouble ...
Ronan Swan said that he had not heard any reports of damage but that he had not been onsite today. He agrees with the points in the press release that the stone was probably re-used and from nearby.
At least the media have taken some interest today - sometimes it feels like the press releases are falling into a black hole in cyberspace.

by related - none Mon Dec 03, 2007 17:05

I fwd'd this to my sister who works in an archaeological company,
her reply " .. I wonder where the stone was borrowed from!? .."

Hm.

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain Mon Dec 03, 2007 17:42

may have come from a passage grave in the area. I have it from the archaeologists that stones like this were re-used and "borrowed" and even broken in formed other buildings like souterrains.
There are a number of possible passage graves in the area - but they have not been excavated. The whole area at Rath Lugh and Lismullin (Rath Lugh looks down on the henge/souterrain/stone) is an archaeological complex in itself.

by Mchael Martin - TaraWatch Mon Dec 03, 2007 19:03

Salvaging building materials from no longer in use buildings for the construction of new structures was quite common up to very recently. It stands to reason that the stone(s) decorated with neolithic artwork recently found near the medieval souterrains at Lismullin were salvaged from a much older structure within easy walking distance of the souterrains.

by TaraTaraTara Mon Dec 03, 2007 20:30

There are several more in the direct vicinity. May they fly in the face of corruption and the disintegration of our heritage. This one is right beside the new find. Sceptics beware, its not over yet.

T

Souterrain near Lismullin

Stones throw from the excavation

Going in

by Seoras Tue Dec 04, 2007 09:42

There seems to be a degree of unhealthy scepticism about the stone , it is undoubtedly similar to the megalithic art found in Irish passage graves e.g. Knowth , Newgrange etc and the practice of re-use of marked rocks from the Neolithic-Bronze Age in later monuments like is not uncommon at least in Scotland whereI could name 12 souterrains and duns/forts with reused marked rocks . Truth is stranger than your fiction Damien .

by Damien Tue Dec 04, 2007 09:58

Digger : "and by the way souterains are not Neolithic as stated in the article. They are broadly early medieval in date. Getting your facts wrong also undermines your arguments."

M. Ni Bhrolchain : "It does not say that souterrains are Neolitic - it says AD."

Well yes actually the article does say they are neolithic - the intro to this article claims : "Yet another find over the past few days of Neolitihic underground chambers has been made at Tara".

This is untrue, and digger is correct - its a like the boy who cried wolf, if you do claim that everything you find at tara is neolithic then people stop believing you.

by M. Ni Bhrolchain Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:32

article at the beginning of this thread was not written by me. I'm referring to the press release. The first message is by anon - I use my name.
The press release that I sent out is correct, the stone is megalithic, this was confirmed yesterday by both G. Eogan - eminent archaeologist and also by the NRA archaeologist to a reporter.
There is no crying wolf and I am not responsible for inaccurate articles posted by others. I have always made sure with those who know that my information is correct. The photographs were viewed by archaeologists who know their material before I sent the release and the photograph out.
If you want to find fault - at least blame the right person.

by anon Tue Dec 04, 2007 16:18

Souterrains dismanteled.

Souterrains clearly visible Sunday ,all gone today.

by Muireann Ni Bhrolchain Tue Dec 04, 2007 16:44

Unfortunately the nature of even "normal" archaeology is to excavate = bring back to the first act of the builders = destroy.
Archaeology is destruction which is why geophysical surveys are the future and can show what is underground without putting a spade in the ground.
The souterrain stones are lying around as were the stones taken from the graves at Collierstown and the remaining bones scattered there and at Baronstown.
Bad enough the souterrain but the amount of bodies taken from the ground at Tara an other sites is mounting and is an unmitigated disgrace.

by marcella Sun Dec 23, 2007 16:06 anitagreg at gmail dot com Belfast

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the graves are trashed - the souterrain is gone - the stone is hauled away to some lab
--
the bones of the ceremonial burial of the hound at Lismullin( Iron Age ? )are stuffed in some bin liner somewhere
-
- but the evidence is now incontravertible that there there are more megalithic structures in the valley than we now know of
not just the Mound of the Hostages as was thought to be the case
- and this stone has now been dated on stylistic grouds to be older than Newgrange -
-
and that there are many secrets from many different Ages
which will be lost forever if it goes down to concrete
-
that the whole valley should be regarded as of archaeologial importance
and declared a National Monument
and a Heritage Park
..and be left for our children
and the doorway into the Past not destroyed by this generation
-
-
marcella
-
http://www.tarataratara.net
-
-

Lismullin Stone - carvings

ceremonial burial of a hound - Lismullin

by marcella Sun Dec 23, 2007 16:18 anitagreg at gmail dot com

-
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sorry - meant to add a new picture of the souterrain at Lismullin
from http://www.savetara.com
-
being the one that WAs at Lismullin
and now is no more
-
marcella
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Souterrain at Lismullin

by marcella Sun Dec 23, 2007 16:48 anitagreg at gmail dot com

-
-
I meant ALSO to mentiom the " I Walk the Line "
walk on New Years Day
along parts of the already existing - but disused - Navan Dublin railway
to draw attention to its existance
-
and a more sustainable answer to the problems of the increasing numbers of people commuting into Dublin
- more respectful of Heritage - more ecofriendly - safer and faster
and would save the Tara Skryne valley from more destruction
-
there will be details of time - route - flyers etc
and possibly a sponsorship form
from
http://www.sacredireland.org
http://meathmasterplan.com/index1a.html
-
- also downloadble from http://www.tarataratara.net/Tara_Meath_Master_Plan.htm
-
it looks a long way but it isnt uphill or anything ...and we will only walk as far as we can ...
; ) best love
marcella -
-

I Walk The Line