The Greens abandoned Irish Culture

by iosaf Wed Aug 15, 2007 20:14

I like the continuing imagery of all things equine. Recently we had Susan the Californian granny with her visions of the goddess Tara mare who just can't get up and gallop & now we have Kevin nodding at Inicatatus the horse of Caligula, who of all the Julian-Claudian dynasty who began the Roman Empire quite probably was the most insane or the most vilified by subsequent historians. For in truth we don't really know if Inicatatus was appointed to the Senate. That little nugget might have come from the pen of Dio Cassius almost two centuries later. Having reflected on that treacherous perfidity of ancient history let's see where Kevin hooked his bridle - Eoghan Harris. There has been a bit of revisionism of late on both the politics.ie site and wikipedia as regards that man too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoghan_Harris#Recent_Contr...rsies
Now when elder comrades amongst us claim that to campaign effectively one must ; stand around in the rain holding a home-made plackard, collect 100,000 signatures & erase the fake ones, write missives at the rate of three a day to everyone globally above the rank of principal officer in the Irish state civil service or get a paragraph published in the letters page - you really ought make them realise that one thing all the newcomers to "power" in the latest Irish government have in common - is a track record of autobiographical wikipedia use & some of the most cackhanded attempts at aggrandisement.

& you say they wear Armani, Kevin?
I must say I hadn't noticed that in their threads.

I suppose someone has a good collection of Tara Stories to offer the kiddies? you know something more cheery than Aillen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aillen burning the place to the ground?

by Scuba Wed Aug 15, 2007 20:57

You may discover the rubber fetish enjoyed by the Greens during their anti-sellafield period,
also a heightened interest in gas-masks and ladies feet- but thats another tale (butt-plug)
anyway- start cranking up the rachets on thorp and nuclear power- should keep them on
their little toes a few years.John Gormley's shadowy assistant is Colm O Caoimhnigh,
long time FF type- write him and ask him about IMRO and DSE Green party...

by maybe Thu Aug 16, 2007 08:44

It is a part of a global community and is suffering like many other cultures the invidious
effect of globalisation. Recognition of our place in wars of attrition and colonisation is
as imperative as the erosion of our culture.
reminder Susan:- the culture of the former Persia (IraQ) before US foreign policy
was a vibrant culture and had neat philosophical systems which fed the planet
and forms the basis of the perverted white supremacy whose search for 'lebensraum'
is indicated by the neo-colonial administrations of the economy you hail from.
We are not a 32 county soverignity with a necrophiliac passion for sacrifice.
we acknowledge the work of those like Sands to highlight the repression of colonisation.

Like many former colonial outposts our economy is thriving on the unromantic
notion of war support and ignorance of the ramifications of conspicuous consumption
and how those policies are effecting the cultures of our neighbours.

by Diogenes Thu Aug 16, 2007 17:40

Maybe, Persia is the former name for IRAN.

by Tomas Payne Thu Aug 16, 2007 18:46

At least Caligula appointed the whole horse: Ahern merely appointed the posterior.

by iosaf Thu Aug 16, 2007 19:05

Yesterday I left up the page a link to Eoghan Harris' biog on wikipedia which details his efforts to re-write his entry and massage his cyber profile. It's something which many people have done on the Irish scene and beyond. I also left in various other comments the link to an article on the curent issue of Wired which highlights the extent to which companies and entities such as the CIA have edited wikipedia http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/08...acker
Well now that story has gone mainstream, been on this mornings RTE program and it seems the Vatican edited Gerry Adams! well would you believe it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6949153.stm
2 days ago the most exciting CIA edit being talked about were "additions to the details of lyrics sung in a Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode" but now it turns out they're chipping away at Iran (the former Persia) and its prime minister Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6947532.stm & just to think this whole "who is editing wikipedia" thing first broke as a sideline reference on indymedia ireland in regards to the abuse of the resource by one of the Tara campaigners. Anyway. Do you write out the Bobby Sands quote everytime at the end of your comments or is just a cut and paste?

I'm still wondering does anyone have a good collection of childrens' stories based around Tara.

by Cathar Thu Aug 16, 2007 20:07

The New Green Party is Yellow
Ask any senior Green Party figure about Tara and they say that the M3 is a lost battle and it’s better to find an issue that can be won.
It’s an absolute cop out lost causes are as important in their rearguard action as any other. It’s only over when the fat lady sings.
The pragmatists believe in the illusion that they can influence Government decisions and thereby derive benefit for their supporters’ beliefs.
This is an illusion because in their desire to prove themselves, for the future as a suitable partner in government, they have negated any power the might have to alter Government policy.

I agree with the importance of the campaign on the Lismullen Henge and the ridiculousness of putting an interchange at that point which serves only to facilitate a shady organisation’s conference centre. Features like the Henge are normally left undisturbed in situ. There is one in situ at Newgrange and another excavated there with the post holes filled in concrete. A decayed Timber structure only leaves dicolouration in the clay.
What nobody seems to have commented on is the role Gormley and his department played in the removal of the substantial structure at Barronstown . More shades of Pontius Pilate

The Green Party leaders need to learn from Erich Fromm that “the only hope is the energising attraction of a new vision. To propose this or that reform that does not change the system is useless in the long run because it does not carry with it the impelling force of strong motivation. The utopian goal is more realistic than the realism of today’s leaders.” (To have and to be? 1976)

Green Party supporters like myself need to shed the jaundiced New Green look.

by Susan Repasky - Flicker Light Studio Thu Aug 16, 2007 20:08

Hi Maybe.

I realize that Ireland is not a bubble. Very few bubbles exist anymore. Little or nothing is hidden from the “All Seeing Eye”, and very little is sacred to those who would achieve wealth from the violation of the thousands of Sacred sites throughout the world. Knowing that Ireland as a nation was a third world country not many years ago, I fully appreciate that certain infrastructures have been necessary to bring it up to speed with modernization. We all want to live the dream of ease and comfort, including myself. However, the destruction of historical sites is not a fair trade for ease and comfort.

From my perspective, my children were privileged, in that when they were growing up, all they had to do was walk out the door to be in Nature. We lived in a very small community of about two hundred people, in the Arizona-Sonoran desert, quite a lovely place and filled with a plethora of flora and fauna. The Amer-Indians fought many years to preserve their sacred sites and their Reservations after centuries of rape and destruction, and that fight allowed my family the enjoyment of thousands of acres of peaceful beauty.

Today, my Grandchildren are all being raised as apartment dwellers, and to experience “Nature”, they have to go to the sterile setting of a man-made park, or have their parents drive them miles to walk a “Nature” trail, which again is man-made. Some would say that this is a small price to pay for the ease and comfort that infrastructures bring, such as highways and industrial complexes. I would, however, be content eating a bowl of beans with a slice of bread, and able to step out my door once again into the wildness and beauty of Nature.

You speak of the suffering of other cultures, of which I am quite aware. To state that the effect is invidious, or objectionable, is putting it mildly. I wish that I had an answer to the ills the communities of the world are experiencing. Unfortunately I don't.

The time and energy I spend on the Tara Complex, however small or insignificant it might appear to others, is well worth it to me. In the end, whatever happens, I will know that I openly protested and voiced my opinions.

Here are a few places around the globe which are now, or will be in the near future, destroyed/compromised forever, with no chance of reprieve. There are so many that I will only reference a few:
The destruction of the Afghan Buddhas: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/03/1...a.02/

The extinction of the dolphins of the Yangtze River in China:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0808/dolphin.html?rss

The flooding of archaeological sites in Iraq:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/295/5563/...k=nck

Persia ( Iran ) was most certainly a center of beautiful and intricate spiritual values, with a richly tapestried history and complicated mythology. It is unfortunate that the U.S., along with other interested governmental parties, has chosen to interfere for the sake of controlling oil interests. Neo-colonial principles are clearly in use by the worlds governments in implementing globalization. My opinion on globalization is withheld at this time.

I understand that human/animal sacrifices are a thing of the past, and that Ireland has taken the great step forward to become a nation which is recognized by others as a successful and vibrant presence in the world. Ireland should also have the passion and vision to preserve her historical and sacred sites for future generations, much like the Amer-Indians have done.

The economy of the region of the U.S. where I live is fairly stable, allowing my family to continue enjoying the basic pleasures of life and beyond. That soon could change, the economy being a transmutable and ever changing entity, and based upon the recent housing debacle.

Thank you, Maybe, for taking the time to respond to me. I certainly appreciate any and all feedback :-)

Blessings,

Susan Isabella Sheehan-Repasky

“I have always taken a lesson from something that was told me by a sound man, that is, that everyone, Republican or otherwise, has his own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something.” Bobby Sands – March 9, 1954 to May 5, 1981.

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage." (Article 2, Constitution of the Republic of Ireland.)

Related Link: http://www.google.com/search?q=Bunreacht+na+hEireann&bt...earch

The Well Of The White Cow - Tara

by angry reader Thu Aug 16, 2007 20:11

Where are you Kevin?
Did you want to open a thread for others?
And what is it with this really annoying habit of putting up a picture every time she hands out her blessings? She has a thread. No-one is commenting on it. KEVIN!!!!! do something - for the jack russel's sake.

by itchy Thu Aug 16, 2007 20:29

" my opinion on globalisation is witheld at this time"

why? its a negative and greedy development from capitalism- it is what puts the hole in the
doughnut and the petrol in the car.

Should we not all admit that the way we live fuels war and the decimation of culture is a
by-product of the greed that neo-colonial globalisation produces. Thats why so many are
silent and why they do not protest war. Bigger roads, more cars, more dependency on fossil fuels.
and Persia a centre of culture was decimated and stolen from long, long before the
Bush regime- they are just finishing the job. its about white supremacy.

The white man goes to church and brings his god into perceived weaker cultures,
thats not new either- but information tech has made the process of war easier
to decipher. the only thing is that his god is a dilution of eastern systems of
philosophy, conveniently truncated and tied to capitalism to delineate that
perceived supremacy.The stupid greens have traded the principles of being anti-fossil
fuels in order to access power and spread their valueless propaganda at the rest of us.
We live a secure and convenient life away from poverty with first world benefits,
and horses and Bobby Sands are nothing to do with how our society is part of the
perceived western racism and destruction of other cultures?

by Susan Repasky - Flicker Light Studio Thu Aug 16, 2007 20:34

Hi Iosaf.

It is very interesting that one can change ones own profile to suit ones own agenda. Wikipedia is not the only venue :-)

You ask if I type out the quote from Bobby Sands each time I post or cut and paste. A bit of each, I would say. Why, what does it mean to you?
I am not at home right now, but I can assure you that I have many books with stories and faery-tales suitable for my Grandchildren which reference Tara.

Here are a few stories you can access on the web that talk about Tara, if you are so inclined:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ift/ift05.htm

http://www.luminarium.org/mythology/ireland/salmonknowl...e.htm

http://childrens-stories.edigg.com/Ethnic_Fairy_Tales/Irish_Fairy_Tales/The_Boyhood_Of_Fionn_7.shtml

Whoa, Angry Reader, hold your horses! Wow, please don't attack me, I am only posting images I feel are relevant to the Tara issue, and this thread is about TARA! Save your attacks for those who deserve it AR.

By the way, if you don't like the way I close my thoughts, don't read what I write :-)

Blessings,

Susan Isabella Sheehan-Repasky

“I have always taken a lesson from something that was told me by a sound man, that is, that everyone, Republican or otherwise, has his own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something.” Bobby Sands – March 9, 1954 to May 5, 1981.

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage." (Article 2, Constitution of the Republic of Ireland.)

Related Link: http://www.google.com/search?q=Bunreacht+na+hEireann&bt...earch

by bed time story reader Thu Aug 16, 2007 20:39

My last question tonight is a simple one - the people who are going to make money on this motorway - can they really read a bed time story to their children about Tara? Can any of this Government read to their children about Tara? I don't think so unless you are without pride, dignity, accountability, and without ethics and above all morally.

I will leave you on a short humorous note.

Note since Caligula proposed his horse as the New Council in Rome has an appointment to the Senate caused such controversy as Eoghan Harris.

Kevin T. Walsh.

________________________________________

OK - since then we've got photos of an ornamental pond, blessings, references to rubber suits, wikipedia edits, clarifications that Caligula didn't actually put his horse in the council or senate of Rome, the Vatican, Gerry Adams, yet no-one whether or not they want Tara with a motorway has presented even a hint of evidence that anyone can read their children bed-time stories about Tara.

Muscular Christ on a cross for our sins, it's easier to get internet contact details out of Iran than get the name of a short collection of bed-time stories about Tara. Is there such a thing?

by Soporofic Fairy Thu Aug 16, 2007 20:47

But they should be both tall and small....
Tall tales to scare the nasty witch- like ladies away and small for the field mices to hear...

'Ten Tall Tales about Tara'- by Soporofic fairy..
anyone want to illustrate.?

by goblin Thu Aug 16, 2007 21:24

As I suspected all along, there is in fact no single collection of Tara stories from which a good parent or guardian or entrusted child care professional might recourse to as an aid to getting the wee ones off to sleep. Yes indeed, you may get a whiff of Tara in the great corpus of Ulster folk writing on their boy Cuchaillin - you might get a bit of Tara in the work "tales and sagas" by Ulick O Connor illustrated by Pauline Bewick if you're lucky from a remainder store or trusted second hand book dealer - but not one of you has a collection of Tara stories in printed form ready to sway the young parents of the state to support your campaign. You know a book full of magic, witchcraft, mystical places and connections & no - absolutely no motorways.

& then I see people asking for artists to save Tara?
Oh well - ornamental ponds & incense & Bobby Sands will suffice.

Blessèd be.

by Susan Repasky - Flicker Light Studio Fri Aug 17, 2007 00:09

Hi Bedtime Story Reader. I do hope that Kevin answers your question, or at least comments on what you have stated. I believe that each person who has played a part in the selling out of Irelands history and her Sacred sites would have a very difficult time reading any stories about Ireland to their children without experiencing chest pains. The stories to which I referred above, if you will take the time to look, are about IRELAND, not only TARA. What history my children and grandchildren have been given of Tara comes from both historical documentaion and mythological references.

The photo of the “ornamental pond” is in fact the Well of the White Cow, which is just down the road from Michael Slavin's bookstore, and is fed by the waters which percolate through the Hill of Tara. It was Michael Slavin himself who suggested that my husband and I walk down to look at it and discover her beauty. Please see below a composite of several images we captured of the interior and exterior of the well.

Hi Soporific Fairy :-) Ah, to listen to the tales of yore, and be able to dream the dreams of the babe. Well, I'll tell ya, I could illustrate it, if it were for real. Oral tradition and the more recent written word are both beneficial.

Hi Goblin. Again, I never stated that there was a “Tara Anthology”. You, I believe, are suffocating the thread with inane and useless questions. By the way, what is wrong with calling for the support of artists?

Hmmmm...... I get the feeling that all of the above “people” I have greeted in this posting are in reality one person.

Please, let us return to the original course of the thread.

Blessings,

Susan Isabella Sheehan-Repasky

“I have always taken a lesson from something that was told me by a sound man, that is, that everyone, Republican or otherwise, has his own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something.” Bobby Sands – March 9, 1954 to May 5, 1981.

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage." (Article 2, Constitution of the Republic of Ireland.)

Related Link: http://www.google.com/search?q=Bunreacht+na+hEireann&bt...earch

Composite - Well of the White Cow - Tara

by Fairy Fri Aug 17, 2007 09:10

the wee ones like made up stories and poetry, do all fairy stories have to fit necessarily into
the once upon a time model.
and btw:-
the headline of the article is wrong, the greens have not sought to define or reject irish
culture, they have simply dropped principles of anti-globalisation and car-dependency for
power.

thats a different kettle of fish.

I want a vote.

could we ask Susan to stop the Bobby sands Induction, its getting on my tits

by agreed. Fri Aug 17, 2007 19:48

This is something a few people have been known to do over the years, it is ill-mannered & uses up bandwith and pushes news-worthy or original images off the first page of the gallery.

by Susan Sheehan-Repasky - Flicker Light Studio Fri Aug 17, 2007 21:51

You got it :-)

by iosaf Fri Aug 17, 2007 22:28

We get a series of children bed time stories together? Anyone interested in taking on a slice of the annals & corpus not forgetting the stories I referred to earlier in the work of Ulick O Connor illustrated by Pauline Bewick which I enjoyed in my youth even though I suppose I had gone past fairy tales & certainly more in tune with our culture than the only Movie database entry on Tara the 1959 Walt Disney "Darby o Gill and the Little People"
contact me - diplomats[at]swissinfo.org
we can do this in less than 12 months.

I'm sure Kevin will be delighted ;-)

Let's make a new kiddies image of Tara

by Fred Johnston Sat Aug 18, 2007 14:55

The Greens simply did an about-face to secure a sip of power. There is no need to analyse this further. Individual politicians have been doing it for years. So why not an entire party? The individual's vote is of no consequence. We do not live in a democracy, and Fianna Fáil are the party of Big Business - they once, oddly, were the rural/farmers' party. There is no need to pretend at shock and horror when a party such as the Greens reneges on its philosophy and turns Right. This is not the age of principles, as commentators keep telling us; we live in a fallen, mé-fhéin epoque, when nothing matters. It is interesting to note that some of our most prominent writers (Paul Muldoon for one) are now taking to print to protest against what's happening at, for example, Tara. Perhaps in art lies some kind of redemption; in politics there is none.

by Jim Sun Aug 19, 2007 01:56

Fact is that in the June election the so-called alternative government of the Blueshirts, led by Enda, and the Labour Party, led by Pat (I never knew anything about the Official IRA) Rabitte was rejected by the majority. People took a good hard look at Enda and his ex-Stickie side-kick and said a big no thank you. Now get over it boys and girls.

by We the People Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:31

I ask myself , did the 'green' party ever embrace Irish culture at all , never mind anything green.
If you have a prominent member of this green party with millions of shares in Oil Companies and Rubber Johnny Factories , it begs the question.

by holymugger Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:00

Go on waste your time on conspiracy theories about who knew what when and why and what their motivation was. The fact is that the FF/PD Government allowed the Motorway to proceed. It was started before the Greens got into Government. Face facts and stop acting like spoiled brats.

by We the People Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:44

I wonder what the motivation is in calling it a conspiracy , theory. It is a fact that members of ALL Parties are a million miles from living in the woods. These People are spoiled with big Money , cars and comfortable Houses. They may drive green cars or paint their House green.

It really is my favourate colour too.
If it was really in any one's interest to revoke a Ministerial Order , it would have happened.

It did'ent. Thats the fact. Not the thoery.

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics Sun Aug 19, 2007 22:04

Iosaf

Darby O'Gill and the little people - Kevin is really impressed with this. Good old Walt Disney (Irish) and his imagination.

Michelle

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics Mon Dec 01, 2008 19:37

Angry Reader
Yes, where is Kevin? I think he must have gone underground when he saw the M3 forge ahead inspite of all the supporters in Ireland and worldwide..However I know he still has the Jack Russell, who is want to walk to Herbert Park and fight with more nature....yes the Beautiful Swans, our historic culture.

Susan, so glad to find you. I hope you are remaining a non globalised passionate seeker of the historic rights of Tara Hill, Skryne and Gabhran Valley. The Capitalists have pursued but the heads of the elves are still appearing on website, to remind people of Tara, and Skyrne. I was out for a walk with a friend around Burlington Road, the other night. The buildings are here a number of years now but they don't quite catch your attention particularly when health is not so good. Peg, caught in her sight two grand style modern art paintings and somehow managed to catch the attention of the two confident gentlemen walking up the steps. We were invited in and we conversed with others. There was a hearty fire and an area to sit.

Things quietened down and the retired (i suspect) man at the reception desk began to enter the conversation. Then he asked had we seen the two sculptures of Irish men in O'Connell Street. He told us there were to be changes and the statue of Daniel O'Connell is to be removed and something else put in his stead. This tripped in my mind Daniel O'Connell and the Emancipation of Irish Catholics. The St. Patrick Statue was a gift from an order of nuns to Tara, to replace the old old one. What about asking for the statute of Daniel O'Connell and construct a theme based on Peace represented by Daniel O'Connell's statue.

Iosaf...where are you? It is maybe a 'tall story' by a man in a reception area but who knows/?

Quotation Antoine De Saint-Exubery
'Love does not consist in gazing at each other
but in looking outward together
in the same direction.................................................................we need this view in politics

by Phoenix - Iriish Political and Economic Culture Wed Jul 01, 2009 17:42

Ireland, the Island, the Wind, the Sea, the Corrib, the Cities, am I stupid or these Ministers like Nero and 'Fiddling While Rome burned'.

200 euros for an additional home....what an easy way out? I believe it will raise something like half million euros while NAMA and the NTMA are busy trying to find a value per square meter differing from City to City. We seriously need the spratt to catch the salmon in Ireland..... and yes the Salmon is about knowledge.

Vincent Browne has recommended a book just released called the Spirit Level. It forms the view that the less equality there is in an economy, the more dysfunctional an economy is. Why don't the Green Party do a little piggy backing on the shoulders of people with experience like Vincent? The Swedish model is one example that we can gain from.

Let us use what we have and make it viable. The houses in the city if left derelict will end up demolished yet if we look to our European partners, we can see how they have adapted their heritage houses in central locations.

Societies can work. People can lead by example and we can change to enhance society and a way to start is to aim for a more equal society and a fairer distribution of tax.

by Pete. Wed Jul 01, 2009 19:20

The Irish went one better than Caligula.

Quote:

"As late as the end of the 12th century Geraldus Cambrensis reports that the kings of Clan Connaill continue to be inaugurated in the high style of their ancestors – by public copulation with a white mare."

Thomas Cahill (How the Irish Saved Civilization, p135).

http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Saved-Civilization-Hinges-H...18493

and

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/Ireland.html

Also in that link the REAL reason for the present state of Tara is given.

Quote:

"Tara was a tribal gathering centre until the 11th century – though apparently 'cursed into ruin' by 6th century St Ruadhan."

See:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13214a.htm

Not the NRA's fault at all...Tara was ruined by Ruadhan.

.

by Nero - Economic and Social Culture Tue Sep 01, 2009 15:54

'They say about Divorce in Ireland - about the second bite of the cherry? Well what is the position of Irish citizens to the Lisbon Treaty, yes a replay of the referendum held last year when the vote of the Irish people was No.

I note with interest a letter written to Geraldine Kennedy, Irish Times, written by Anthony Couglan, Senior Lecturer Emeritus in Social Policy, TCD, who is also President of the Foundation for EU Democracy, Brussels and a director of the National Platform EU Research and Information Centre.

The word that catches my attention most is 'Social Policy'.

If the Ireland of today was to be compared to the Rome of Nero's era, it would be summed up as 'Fiddlers!! (Nero), while Dublin and its environs burns'. Too much corruption, I would suggest and a lack of sanctions by Tribunals, too fat from fees.

Mr. Couglan, has given considerable time to the Lisbon Treaty and the forthcoming referendum. He refers to the Crotty case in 1987 on the Single European Act ... from which the current referendum Act is derived.

Question to Editor, Irish Times from Mr. Coughlan

Last October, 'on exactly the same Treaty as is being presented to them again in the 2 October re-run' - is their a scent of discrimination to No side advocates and media coverage?

If so, is this democratic?

Also:- What is the real truth about the Treaty and is Ireland the only representative to be voting on such an important Treaty and it what it entails.The question is: Is this a proposal to make 500 million Europeans into 'real citizens of the legally new Federal-type European Union which the "Lisbon Constitution" would establish.

Mr. Coughlan raises 5 more points.

Question 1
'Are people happy to be made real rather than symbolic citizens of a post-Lisbon Federal European Europe which for the first time would be constitutionally separate from and superior to its Member States, with a new EU Constitution, with the new EU's Constitution having primacy over the Irish Constitution'

Personally, I would find this difficult to accept. The Peace Process, the Unity of Ireland and the Dream, the place of Ireland as a Peacemaker in the world, stand economically challenged. The experience of the Peace Process must have a worth versus the demograpic option assuaged by the Lisbon Treaty.

I agree with Mr. Coughlan. A citizen is a member of a State and in our case in Ireland, we are citizens of Ireland. Post Lisbon could change this.

Question 2

Could it possibly be in Ireland's best interest that post Lisbon Union that European law-making ought to be based on population size? Do we realise that Germany's vote would increase to 17%. Let us recall the significance of the decision of the Irish people in 1973 to join the EEC, France, Germany, Britain and Italy had 10 votes each and Ireland had 10 votes. The ratio was 3:1 Today the Big States have 29 votes each and Ireland has 7 - a ratio of 4:1

I ask why would we want to dilute our powers. Does life experience not count for something? We have become a training ground for many europeans who have come to Ireland to work, study and learn English since 1973. Surely this counts?

Question 3

Can it be in Ireland's best interest to lose the right as to who would represent us in Europe; more importantly the right to make that decision. We would lose out on an option to propose laws.

Question 4

'Lisbon would abolish the national veto which we have at present in 30 policy areas by handing over to the EU the power to make laws binding on us with regard to public services, policing, crime, justice, the harmonisation of legal procedures, immigration, transport, tourism, sport, culture, public health?

This really is pertinent. What areas would we be left with so that our own policy machine, our system of the Rule of Law, the Separation of Powers would have precedent. We need to review our history from Independence to date and feel confident that an abrogation of such power is fully acceptable to the people of Ireland and this means the Island of Ireland.

Question 5

This raises a most interesting view. It say's - it will not be the end of the world if Lisbon is not voted in. If we vote No - interestingly it stands that the Czechs and the Polish will not ratify the Treaty.

This again is interesting. Is it not so that Ireland has been a second home to both the Czech and Polish citizens during the period of the Celtic Tiger. I must add this was greatly assisted by Ryanair and the initiative of Mr. O'Leary for a no frills service to European destinations. It also could be the case that Germany may not have ratified the Treaty before the Irish vote.

Have you further views on this NO position. This is about the real nucleus of what we the Irish (members since 1973 albeit not the most populated country)?

Simplistically, imagine your are a board member of a large public company, and a merger or take-over is decided upon. Let us assume you are a director and your place is secured in the take over as director. What then if you were to be demoted to say management level with no real input. What if you had dedicated years of work, experience, capital etc. to the company taken over........! (Imagine Ryanair) and Mr. O'Leary's entrepreneurial abilities!

by L Connolly - Ireland and Freedom Wed Sep 02, 2009 13:18

Going through the No to Lisbon reports on Indymedia yesterday - I can say all are well documented but Nero stood out a little. One question Nero asked will be put into the fear mongering category by the Yes Machine. This says that we are no responsible for 500 million Europeans going into a bureaucratic Federal Europe?

No we are not, we have the moral right democratically to say NO again. That's fact. The Yes campaign are cynically using the Recession to scare people into voting for a Treaty not fully explained.

Patricia McKenna rightly said yesterday, this is not a referendum about the type of Social Democratic EU people want. Miss McKenna went on to dismiss suggestions that Voting No would hurt Ireland's ability to trade with EU neighbours and she pointed to Industrial Agency figures which showed the amount of foreign investment has increased since Ireland rejected Lisbon.

Roll on a UNITED NO campaign and well done Nero.

L. Connolly

by Nero - Greens Culture Lisbon and No Wed Sep 02, 2009 15:18

The Greens abandoned Irish Culture......but the values and Norms of Miss Patricia McKenna definitely have not.

Ireland has a lot to be proud of and at the time of this second Lisbon Referendum we must truly ask ourselves, what is it we expect from Europe and do we feel that we should be excluded from top tier decision making based on demographics versus our enriched culture or political, economic, social and cultural growth. We the Irish must not under-sell ourselves by saying Yes to a Referendum titled Lisbon when we already have voted NO.

The Daily Mail has an interesting piece today about a Whistleblower who opens fire!!

The well known EU whistleblower Marta Andreasen is visiting Ireland to outline her opposition to the Lisbon Treaty. This woman was the former accountant for the European Commission who became embroiled in a scandal concerning the signing off on inappropriate methods and outcomes of accounting.

There was a euros 200 m discrepancy in the 2001 accounts ...... that was omitted from a final set of accounts. (Air brushed...). This caused Ms. Andreasen to lose her job at the Commission. I ask what has Transparency International to say about this and for that matter what about Transparency Ireland - surely they have reported on the bureaucratic expense ridden EC bodies.

Tonight Ms. Andreasen will speak at the Ashling Hotel, Parkgate Street, Dublin 8, at 8 p.m. Entry is free. She will review the Lisbon Treaty and highlight the serious flaws in the institutions of the EU. It is important to note that if the Lisbon Treaty is passed, Ireland will forfeit more of its State power to the EU.

Mrs. Andreasen was elected an MEP for the UK Independence Party in June. A whistleblower, she may be, but bureaucracy is a serious problem and can easily destroy innovation, competitiveness, knowledge structures etc.

An example for people to consider - within the common sense realm

There is a Directive set to come into force in EU by 2012 yet a Trade body warns of the results of this new EU Rule.
UK insurers are expressing their fears regarding this new ruling. They say that they will have to tap investors for more than £50 billion in fresh equity as a result of th8is new European set of rules and they quite rightly say these charges will have to be passed on to the customers.

In a letter to Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, the leading UK trading industry body warns that these "extreme" proposals 'would destabilised the industry across Europe'.

This is alarming and when we put in the context of the Island of Ireland - we need to ask to we need to vote to be valued lesser in the context of the EU. We have been members since 1974, we deserve more credibility surely.

Nero

by Basset Hound - Justice and Peace Thu Sep 03, 2009 17:07

Well, it is the truth. Yes, there will be an exchange. Boris Johnson, Mayor of London, is campaigning against tighter financial regulations on hedge funds and private equity funds by the EU and certain directives. This will make for an interesting exchange. My hope is that those in NAMA, the Department of Finance here in Ireland, the Yes Votes, the No votes, will take time to listen to their exchange.

The world is about Finance and financial markets need to be monitored, sometimes cushioned, sometimes they need more regulation and in cases like over the last number of years, the pattern was governed by Globalisation and for this free flow of funds, the fact is de-regulation had to be engaged in.

What is important for the Irish people to realise is that 'we don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water'. We need to listen, to hear, and even piggy back on the experience of others.

Boris Johnson was the Daily Telegraph's correspondent in Brussels from 1989 - 1994 and he was colourful in his reporting. Do you recall the headline 'Threat to British pink sausages'. He kept the headlines going making people aware that the EU could become a massive super-state capable of smothering Britain with copious directives of no relevance.

Remember the Institutions of the EU were also subject to fraud, nepotism and mismanagement. In fact, the Commission had to resign in 1999.

In Ireland, we like to blame and criticise but sometimes we need to accept that others know a little more than us and are ultimately acting in the best interests of the overall purpose.

We await the news from the meeting with Mr. McCreevy... Again....Lisbon II, will remove Ireland as an EC Commissioner in the top tier. Is this equitable based on the argument of demographics as distinct from our vast experience?

by Fred Johnston Sun Sep 06, 2009 14:07

Amusing to see the Green's huddling under expensive video cameras around a 'Green' food-stall in Galway's Shop Street yesterday (Saturday), while a couple of hundred yards up the street there was a stall asking for 'No to Lisbon' and another further on supporting the Palestinians, both of which the Greenies assiduously avoided.

by The Greyhound - Social Justice Sun Sep 06, 2009 15:20

Re above posting, the Greens are definitely in a moral dilemma. Eamon Ryan can never shake off standing with the Anti Shell people at the Corrib, only several years ago. It looks like it is time for the Greens to regain some conscience of what it is that the Irish people want now. It is apparent that the Irish people do not want NAMA and they certainly don't want another European bureaucratic federal state.

Pat Rabbit last week uttered a good line....it said that Green Minister Ryan is now the spiritual adviser of FF (what a pathetic title to have!)

The Greyhound

by Pete. Sun Sep 06, 2009 18:24

What is important for the Irish people to realise is that 'we don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water'. We need to listen, to hear, and even piggy back on the experience of othe....

Almost every farmer in Ireland is paid by the German proletariot.

If you don't believe that........ask the farmers.

If you don't believe them........... ask the Germans.
.

by The Kerry Blue - Social Justice Mon Sep 07, 2009 16:40

Green Culture.....Europe is enveloping the Green Culture but Ireland!!!

The Village magazine September 2009 raises an issue that I believe needs considerably more attention.

Eco tourism is what Ireland ought to be looking towards. Yet if you look around our Capital City, you will witness Georgian Mansion after Georgian Mansion with 'To Let' signs up outside the main hall doors. Those hall doors that are to be found on postcards and holiday brochures. If there was a utility tax and it could be proved who actually owns the properties and the wealth factor, then we could have quite a viable bit of construction work for employees in Ireland. These Georgian Squares are neglected and why? Who owns these houses? We must at all times remind ourselves that Dublin was the second city of the British Colonial empire, and these buildings are the remnants and most importantly our pivotal to our tourist industry.

Lisbon II. The Treaty. How many people will come out and vote. I believe the average in Europe is circa 58%, yes a declining number of people voting each time. This Treaty holds all kinds of questions that need to be answered.

The media bite in the Village is titled DECadence. It suggests that one imagine the frugal man and 'unstoppable recycler, composter, and light-extinguisher'. This man reads George Monbiot. In the meantime, we note that our own ENFO Library and source of all environmental information has been first on the Government hit list to be closed down - to which I can only as where are the Green's in respect of such a dramatic cut back.

Ireland apparently has carbon emissions that stand at 16.7 tonnes per person per year while the EU average is 11 and Sweden's are down at 7.4. Apparently, according to Friends of the Earth, Dublin is showing that we are way behind the EU legislation passed in 2002. This states that every building over 1,000 square meters has to display an energy performance certificate - yes, the Display Energy Certififcate or DEC. This Directive was to be put into effect by January 2009. Where are we? We are talking about the Lisbon Treaty and yet the enforcement of a directive such a this seems so far down the priority list. I am wonder has An Bord Snip reviewed it but then maybe NAMA will be more creative in its thinking. NAMA become the marketer of toxic debts but we all must coax them to promote where possible making what is toxic non toxic and saleable and in this comply with the EU directives.

It is suggested that there are over 5,000 buildings and the savings projected amount to some Euros80 m. The Friends of the Earth have gone further in that they suggest that many of our public buildings show very poor energy ratings.

There appears to be a bureaucratic nightmare in property. We see lots for sale, to rent, left vacant, under utilised but do we ever ask the question how effective the system is. Go to the estate agents, their web screens, their integration of advertising, yet houses are not being let out. Then we have the added charges like 200 euro tax landlords, the supply demand equilibrium theory swayed in favour of the tenant and now the landlord has to improve the standard of the property and the costs, okay the interest rates are low but then what about the negative equity. If your house is vacant for several months (as most are), you have to pay high fees for reconnection of ESB, then add the EU BER directive and all other costs.

I reckon if the Govt keep adding taxes to the property owners, we will find ourselves in cash flow problems and in turn will lead to massive underutilisation of property space and in turn dereliction. There is an excellent site with photos on Indymedia - the focus is mainly derelict properties, the product of earlier recessions. We need to learn from experience. It may be a good idea for the Irish people to 'twin' themselves with say 'Sweden' as we share a Viking history and other factors. Sweden, as far as I am aware did not joint the Eurozone so has a tailored membership of the EU.

by Somerset - Social Justice Wed Sep 09, 2009 15:46

Green Culture in the news again today. The greens have made a statement that impacts on NAMA. The decision is to remove directors with settlement packages (no doubt) from the Boards of certain banks. They purport that the banking culture has changed. Tomorrow's news will reveal the fine details of this 'management culture' exercise.

The Hiring and Firing game perhaps should have taken place earlier on but it didn't and one ought to ask the question is it such a wise decision now? This green culture sponsored ultimatum is likely to result in the departure of 10 Bank of Ireland directors and 8 from Allied Irish Bank, as well as personnel from other institutions. There is a motive for the greens. Dramatic change will enhance their position and will assist their members in making the decision to vote in favour of NAMA legislation. The meeting is on Saturday. This could be referred to as short-terminism and perhaps even rash.

I wonder where the Green banking culture stands in relation anti-corruption. Have the Greens got a view on the Mahon Tribunal and the lack of definite time span that has allowed it to just flow with now decision in the year 2009, almost 10 years since inception?

Surely, we need the review and we need to weed out any corrupt influences therein. We also need to stop the large payments to the legal profession for services rendered on time allocation and exceptionally high rate. After all, the state has asked landlords to reduce rents via people who receive rent allowance.

Meanwhile, Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy is taking a strong look at corrupt practices via his anti-fraud team. It was announced today Gardai are preparing to interview a list of key figures in Anglo Irish bank loans and deposits scandal. There is an established Fraud Bureau with assigned detectives as well as investigators from the ODCE (Director for Corporate Enforcement). There are 20 officers employed at the Garda Fraud Bureau to speed up the process. How wise?

We need to take account of the Green Banking Culture but we also need to alert ourselves to the speedy deliverance of evidence of fraud and corruption. Enforcement as happened through the auspices of the CAB is the order of the Day surely. I would like a Green to speak out on this.

by Chestnut - No Vote to Lisbon Sat Sep 26, 2009 16:22

Can anybody out there qualify why the Tanaiste did not seek the advice of the Attorney General regarding the resignation of Roddy Molloy from his position in FAS.

The Lehman collapse is one year a way now, so surely the Senior Fraud Office and the Department of Justice and Equality have had adequate time to sift out 'The Good from the Bad' and put in place laws that would criminalise fraudulent activities. Where is the whisteblowing charter? Are people too afraid to abide by it. Bribery and Corruption is unacceptable now and we must act in a positive way. We need an outcome urgently to the Mahon Tribunal.

When will pay heed to the model of Federal Law in the US? If you interfere in anti-trust or engage in insider trading or trading practices that can result in company bankruptcy, the Federal detectives are active and due process applies with haste. People get serious time prison for bribery and corruption in the US.

Bruce Arnold, a seassoned 'Chestnut' has an interesting article in the Indo. today:

he says
'If we reject the Lisbon Treaty we reject the European Union' or do we!
'Many wise and powerful leaders in Europe, including the prime minister of Sweden, who is currently EU president, as well as a former President of France, have dismissed this idea as rubbish, which undoubtedly it is. The two are in fact quite separate. If we pass the referendum it will change the EU it quite radical if not revolutionary ways.

If we do not pass it, we will go on as before. Going on as before is an Irish occupation'

There is dire global economic failure and yet we are holding a second referendum within 14 months in the hope that the people of Ireland will change their vote to Yes to appease our European partners. Meantime, we take a step down the ladder, losing a commissioner, and gaining a lower proportion of votes while other countries with larger populations enter the arena and basically Ireland's experience because of low demographics, merits what is basically pure demotion.

We need to review the plus side of Ireland. We have achieved a resolution to the Troubles in the North - surely the experience of this counts for something.

We have immigration problems in Ireland but we do not have the same problems as the French or Italians. They call the immigration encapments, the Jungle. Only now do we see examples of these 'jungles' on the TV as the French Police raid the sites and demolish the houses. We know that this is done in Harare, in Zimbabwe, and we all shout out again Mugabe but why is it acceptable in Europe. This is the nasty side of demographics for the European Elite.

Ireland is a knowledge economy because it always was. Our origins are monastic settlements where people travelled to Europe to teach. In the last few centuries, priests, nuns and lay persons have continued with this mission to places in Africa, South America, and of course Asia. We have established links with the Japanese, the Chinese, the Koreans, and these are part of the world economic markets of today. We in Ireland via our universities and colleges are teachers of the English language to many peoples from different continents.

Where do the Greens stand viz a viz Tara. It is a polyglot of roads with no appreciation of what could be a world heritage site. What about these Stealth taxes on people who have invested in property, some using investment in property as a source of pension? Now they are left with BER tax, property tax probably no tenants etc. What about all the buildings being held for investments but with no occupation just vacancy in the hope of an investment return e.g. Mountjoy Square - who is going to make these Green. The greens ought to be thinking on their feet regarding property in Ireland. The bulbs they suggest fail to carry a warning list and if you get a chance to see the warning list you will find comments like if you break it 'don't touch, don't use the vacuum cleaner, it contains mercury a dangerour substance.

Does anyone know what happened about the Chromium situation in Cork? This is a really serious crisis yet it is swept under the carpet. Where is the EU in relation to this.

The US have been prompt with a man from Ireland who 'mis managed waste' he is to be extradicted.

October 2nd looms. Globalisation was about de-regulation but remember Sterling currency still exists, the Euro exists, the US$ exists, the Yen. They all are about money but money is about commodities and factor of production so Ireland given the North South Stg. Euro connection needs to think a little more laterally.

To be Roasted Chestnut