Irish Activists in Lebanon on 1st Anniversary of Israel's War

by DM Tue Aug 07, 2007 18:02

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Interview with Activist/Artist Shane Cullen who designed the commemoration stone layed at Qana 13.93 Mb

by avi15 Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:12

Are we perhaps not in danger here of making heroes out of people (hezbollah) who in this war, according to Amnesty, committed war crimes on innocent people? Before people rush into whataboutery, I am just thinking, for example, of the rocket attack on innocent railway workers in Haifa.

by Nodin Wed Aug 08, 2007 13:26

Well, you might say that if somebody actually mentioned Hezbollah in glowing terms, or at all.....

by DM Wed Aug 08, 2007 13:58

Re. Hezbollah support query and whether this article supports their actions.

Though I met many supporters of Hezbollah over the past week, who I believe are predominantly nonviolent people in their daily lives, of course the reality of last years war is that they also did commit war crimes. Targeting innocent civilians whether through carelessness or premeditation or as a unfortunate but necessary element or warfare is completely unjustifiable as far as I'm concerned.

The larger question we must ask ourselves in societies that exist in relative peace are to what degree our silence and inaction is a war crime. To what extent, by our sitting on the sidelines whilst the war profiteers and war policy makers/actors smoke their cigars and line their bloody pockets, are we complicit for allowing them to get away with preparing and carrying out such atrocious actions against humanity. We cannot just judge from the sidelines. I often have done so in the past, not understanding the true horrors of war and the impact it has on ordinary people. This is due to the relatively comfortable and safe upbringing I experienced, despite the fact that a war was occurring and civil rights were non-existent for vast swathes of the population not far north of my hometown in Offaly. Those who journeyed to Lebanon from Derry have experienced war before, unlike I, and therefore I'm sure they were able to see many parallels with what had occurred in the north over so many decades.

These recent experiences in Lebanon have really brought home to me how personally responsible I am for war and its tragic consequences if I do not act to stop it wherever it is I happen to be. To support the work Michael and Caoimhe are doing is a nonviolent response which I would once again appeal to readers to consider. Their email addresses are above if you want to get in contact. Even a small amount can benefit their work with refugees in Nahr al-Bared/Baddawi camp. If you can't afford anything then a short email of support would also be much appreciated. Similar to those caught up in jail, a letter from friends and family can go a long way to boost ones spirits when living in difficult circumstances.

I am not a supporter of Hezbollah although I do completely understand why many people support them in many ways throughout Lebanon, especially when/after their homesteads are/have been bombed and relatives, neighbours killed. I am speaking here in a personal capacity. My views are not supposed to be representative of DAWC and hopefully they will join in here at some stage to clarify their position also.

I suspect however that many of them would hold a position that self-defence through armed action such as Hezbollah's response to Israeli invasion is justified. From the 5 days or so I spent with the delegation I would be very surprised if they would not also condemn the killing of innocent civilians by Hezbollah.

by Fintan Lane Wed Aug 08, 2007 15:08

That's the most sensible comment I've read on this topic for a while on indymedia. Well put.

by Deirdre Clancy Wed Aug 08, 2007 15:34

Great report, Damien. It is important that people witness relentlessly to the situation on the ground in Lebanon, Palestine and many other areas of the Middle East. Keep the reports coming in - this is the type of stuff Indymedia Ireland needs. Plus, on a personal note, it's good to be reminded from time to time that my former co-defendants haven't gone away, you know ...

Here's to continuing to strive to be a thorn in the flesh of the military-industrial complex. But keep safe too.

by Felix Quigley - Damien 4 questions for you to answer Wed Aug 08, 2007 17:44

Damien

Are you clear that the Hizbullah aim is to destroy the state of Israel? Did you put this to any Hizbullah you met and what was the response?

Are you clear that they invaded Israel? Where are the hostages?

On Qana have you read the reports of EUReferendum on Qana being a hoax essentially pulled off by Hezbullah?

Finally and most importantly why did none of your group cross over into Israel to speak to the ordinary folk there who had to vacate their homes during the Hezbullah continuous rocket fire which unlike the Israeli actions was indiscriminate?

I await your reply with some interest.

by Felix Quigley Wed Aug 08, 2007 19:20

What interests me about this visit to Qana and lebanon by these Derry folk is this:

The issue of Qana is still very much one that is unresolved. Did the hezbullah stage this event?

What really interests me is that Eamon McCann who is an investigative journalist has not uttered a word although he knows that there is much investigative reporting on this that suggests a Big Lie, especially the blogosphere which concentrated more than anything on the photos.

McCann must know of these doubts. But McCann suddenly becomes a mute.

It is all there on the Internet folks!

So was any research done by any on this group on the issue of qana, the purpose of their visit after all. Their totaL SILENCE PERHAPS DOES UNWITTINGLY reveal something.

Nobody likes the loss of life in any situation. But hoaxes have been pulled in war.

we do have a film of a poor Palestinian Arab, dead, on a stretcher being carried to his burial, falling off, climbing on again, falling off again, then finally thinking nobody was watching, walking off

by Doire Wed Aug 08, 2007 20:24

Eamon McCann is nothing in Derry all talk and no action. It's Sinn Fein ourselves alone who have the support of Derry wans.

by ? Wed Aug 08, 2007 20:54

That would explain why he is awaiting trial for disabling thousands of $ if Raytheon equipment then?

by Doire Wed Aug 08, 2007 21:06

so what the RA blew up most of Derry and he wrecked a few computers,,,,,

by Nodin Wed Aug 08, 2007 21:24

So Felix, I suppose because of what may (or may not) have happened in Qana Lebanon was never invaded, there was never a civil war, there was never a "buffer" zone, Israel never sponsored the SLA and nobody died at all, at all......So much straw my eyes are starting to water.......

by Nodin Wed Aug 08, 2007 21:34

I might add that outside the American right wing "blogosphere" (or 'bloatosphere' as I prefer) Qana is not viewed as a "hoax".

"As for EU Referendum's claim that a Lebanese rescue worker seen in many photos from Qana was a "Hezbollah official," I e-mailed co-author of the site, Richard North, to ask for his evidence.

"All I have to go on is gut instinct," North replied. " (Full article linked below)

Pulled right from his lower intestine, I'd say.

by DM Wed Aug 08, 2007 21:40

Are you clear that the Hizbullah aim is to destroy the state of Israel? Did you put this to any Hizbullah you met and what was the response?

And the State of Israel wish to destroy Hezbollah. I didn't, because I only met one fighter who I knew for sure was a fighter. He had spent 11 years in Israeli prisons from the age of 16. He was tortured for the first five while in solitary confinement. The next five he was treated better. In his last year he got visits from the ICRC and was soon after released. It didn't seem like an appropriate question to ask as I only spent 1 hours or so in his company. The State of Israel is not the same as the people of Israel - even Israeli anarchists want to destroy the state of Israel, but for sure they don't want to destroy themselves, their friends, fellow citizens and family.

Are you clear that they invaded Israel? Where are the hostages?

Both sides have hostages - Israel has a huge amount more of Hezb. than Hezbollah have of Israeli soldiers. Neverttheless, international law should be respected as regards the treatment of prisoners. Torture and indefinite detention without trial is not justifiable; access to independent lawyers and human rights officials should be implemented forthwith. I would wish to see all parties involved return to civilian life and refuse to fight with weapons.
One could hardly equate the capturing of 2 Israeli soldiers in disputed territories with the subsequent overkill invasion that Israel engaged in!

On Qana have you read the reports of EUReferendum on Qana being a hoax essentially pulled off by Hezbullah?

I've read the doubts. I believe the mourners and the fact that their kids are no longer alive.
Call me a gombeen naive BIFFO if you will but i'll believe reputable human rights researchers and hospital reports rather than an armchair blogger who was not in Qana. Though he does have a point about images of war and how they are shown to the world for political purposes. Are you trying to tell us that the images of the dead are just mannequins?

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/02/lebano13899.htm
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGIOR410132006

The Lebanese Red Cross did over estimate the casualty rate initally, putting it at 68.
But the fact that the actual death rate was 3 times less in the end hardly diminishes the tragedy nor the fact that it was a war crime.

Finally and most importantly why did none of your group cross over into Israel to speak to the ordinary folk there who had to vacate their homes during the Hezbullah continuous rocket fire which unlike the Israeli actions was indiscriminate?

Read what I wrote above - they are not my group. I am not a member of DAWC. I tagged along. Our trips collided.
One cannot cross over into Israel from Lebanon - it's policed by UNIFIL and is a no go zone.
Raytheon did not design any Hezbollah weapons from what I know therefore the DAWC had a point going to Qana methinks!
So the Israeli actions were not indiscriminate? - What a despicable comment to write. How dare you justify the murder of innocent civilians. I have not done so above nor will I ever.

Felix, I just spent a bomb answering your questions from Amman, Jordan. In the future, help save me money and time, do your own research without blinkers, or if you really care about war victims then how about going to Israel and Lebanon yourself rather than relying on EUReferendum to do your 'from the sidelines' propaganda.

I will travel to Israel soon and I would also like to meet the victims of war there. TBCtd.

by Deirdre Clancy Thu Aug 09, 2007 09:59

>It's Sinn Fein ourselves alone who have the support of Derry wans.

Would that be the same Sinn Fein whose leader has had no qualms about shaking hands with George W. Bush? The same one? Or is it some other splinter of Sinn Fein I don't know about? Please clarify...

While the shinners are capable of both talk and action, as I doubt very many people approved of that particular action. I think I prefer the actions of Eamon McCann. While not from Derry, I would find it hard to imagine many people there having much time for that sort of cavorting with George W.

by avi15 Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:23

'Both sides have hostages'

I think it is important to distinguish fact from fiction here. Obviously, no form of incarceration is a picnic; however, you will find that Israel affords the Red Cross access to the Arab prisoners it holds and also gives them basic rights accorded to prisoners, such as medical treatment, food, contact with relatives where feasible, etc.

Contrast this with the barbaric treatment Hezbollah metes out to Israeli hostages, who by the way were just reservists abducted from across the border, just like Gilead Shalit in Gaza. No-one has had sight or sound of them - certainly not their relatives and certainly not the Red Cross, despite many overtures and even pleading and begging. No-one knows if they are alive or being kept in a dark dungeon or tortured or even transferred to Iran. Moreover, there is some evidence (from the capture of William Buckley) that Hezbollah inject hostages with drugs to destroy their minds, once they have extracted information trom them. There is also information from ex-prison guards in Teheran that Ron Arad, the Israeli pilot shot down, was transferred there, possibly by Hezbollah, and after numerous escape attempts, was deliberately paralysed from the waist down by surgery. Obviously, as long as no information is forthcoming about hostages, Hezbollah cannot be constrained in their treatment in any way.

Finally, it seems to me that there is no moral equivalence between soldiers abducted when fighting with in defence of their country and terrorists incarcerated to prevent indiscriminate murder. Before people say, well, Israel kills people indiscriminately, I would add that every effort is taken not to but that Hezbollah, and we know this for a fact - there is plenty of evidence of it - deliberately sites their weaponry among innocent civilians, thus putting them in harm's way. This is a cynical media tactic. Heads Hezbollah wins, tails Israel loses: if Israel does not attack because of this, Hezbollah is protected; if they do attack and civilians and Hezbollah are killed, then it's a media disaster for Israel. Clever, but as I said - deeply cynical.

by observer Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:03

Avi: "Finally, it seems to me that there is no moral equivalence between soldiers abducted when fighting with in defence of their country and terrorists incarcerated to prevent indiscriminate murder"

I prefer: there is no moral equivalence between people resisting oppression, the invasion and occupation of their country, the mass killing of family and friends, AND state terrorists, armed to the teeth by the US superpower, who hold nuclear weapons, attack helicopters, every military advantage and blightly engage in the wholesale and violent oppresion of the Palestinian people.

Yes, I'll go with that version myself.

by Nodin Thu Aug 09, 2007 13:37

As Israel has detained a great many of its 10,000 Arab prisoners without charge it is rather hard to say if indeed they are or are not "terrorists". You omit to mention the torture methods used by Israel and sanctioned by the courts for use on Arabs. I also find it rather amusing that theres an attempt to compare the treatment of 10,000 (not to mention the population they come from) with 2. Scale alone renders comparison ridiculous.

I see that we've now gone from 'discredit' (massacre never happened) to 'diversion' (the prisoners) to the old saw of 'crazed for jewish blood'. All we need now is a few comments on how Israel made the desert bloom and there was nothing there but snow before the settlers arrived and we've almost the full set.

by Michael Martin Thu Aug 09, 2007 21:24

Dear Nodin,

you are slightly mistaken claiming "....and there was nothing there but snow....", when in fact there was nothing there but SAND before the jewish settlers came and literally, through hard labour and dedication, made the desert bloom! Yes, the jewish people did it, no matter how you try to twist the facts!

by Feyadeen Thu Aug 09, 2007 21:48

Dearie me Michael, your contributions on Indymedia never did reach a high standard but you've degenerated rapidly into outright lunacy. Posting big pictures of Israeli flags does not substitute for having real arguments, nor does putting lots of exclamation marks at the end of your posts

by Nodin Thu Aug 09, 2007 23:24

Really Michael?

You'll find that the overwhelming majority of agricultural produce, and agricultural land, was from and in Arab hands up until the foundation of the Israeli state and the expulsion. The exception, going from memory, was the Citrus crop, which the settlers tended to specialise in. Its all in the UN report that was compiled in order to try and secure a just partition in 1946, dunum by dunum, crop by crop.

None of this relates to the deaths at Qana, none of it relates to the contined situation in Lebanon, and none of it justifies continued settlement building in the occupied territories. Is there any more strawmen you want to try and cover the bodies with, or is there some more disrepectful distractions lurking in your repetoire?

by Jamie.S. Sat Aug 11, 2007 16:47

Instead of all this bickering can you simply not just a big WELL DONE to Eamonn and and the lads for having the pluck to go into a war zone and do some good. These people are prepared to go to jail for what they believe in and now they are prepared to put their own personal safety on the line as well. They just do not sit in front of a computer screen talking about how they would make the world a better place - they actually live it. Fair play lads and WELL DONE! Ireland is proud of you!

by Doire Sat Aug 11, 2007 17:23

Sorry to disapoint you but Gerry Adams has already gone there this year to support the Palestenian people. He represents the majority of Republican / Nationalist people and his presence would have more clout than those without a mandate. As for MC Cann and his friends this has been nothing more than a junket trip

by Nodin Sat Aug 11, 2007 20:27

Anything that helps the people there should be welcomed, regardless of whatever frictions might exist elsewhere.

by Q Sat Aug 11, 2007 23:32

Doire..you just sound like your petty point scoring over a lot of human suffering.

You or Gerry do not have a monopoly on the repub/nat tradition or compassion and solidarity with people under fire from components manufactured in Derry. You have to decide whether the war is merely some means for petty political profile lifting or something that needs to be resisted.

When people like the Raytheon 9 to do serious nonviolent resistance you need to get over yourself (and whatever petty point scoring agenda) and offer some proactive solidarity. Such actrions, trials and serious consequences are defining moments for all of us.

by Q Sun Aug 12, 2007 05:48

The nine are facing trial on specific charges arising out of the nonviolent disabling of Raytheon equipment.

Like any piss poor prosecutor you wish to move the goalposts. It didn't work in the trial of the Catholic Workers in Dublin and hopefully it won't work in Derry or in cyberspace. It seems as though Doire is not concerned about Irish complicity in the wars on the Third World merely in marginalising the defendants for petty political point scoring.

The disabling of Raytheon equipment was a nonviolent act, the continual manufacture of such equipment designed for the war on the poor is not.

by Anti war and arms trade - DAWC Tue Aug 14, 2007 17:06

I suspect that point scorer has never been a member of the Derry Anti War Coalition him/herself. We have had a couple of very forthright discussions about the fact that some of our members are part of a group that does not reject violence. This was a re-run of a discussion we had back in 1991 at the time of the first Gulf War when we had a similar problem in relation to members of Provisional Sinn Fein who might or might not be members of the IRA. Anyway, we decided then that if we were going to be representative of the community we live in (i.e. Derry) then we were likely to have some people who accepted the legitimacy of political violence. But back then we didn't have many members who were from the Protestant community. That has changed and now we have a healthy representation of people from that community.

More recently, after the 2006 occupation, we had a fairly heated discussion where those from a Protestant background were used as a stick to beat those from the 32 CSM....that is, until one of them, the son of a former Unionist mayor of the city, said that he didn't expect people to agree with his politics and he didn't see why some people were suggesting we should be unwilling to work with one particular group of people whose politics the rest of us don't agree with. He said: this is a coalition. We all have our own politics but we work together to oppose what is happening in the Middle East, Afghanistan etc.

The fact that some of the Raytheon 9 are in the 32 CSM has not stopped others of the Raytheon 9 from criticising them. While the lot of them were in Lebanon, Eamonn McCann published a rant against the 32 Co people's carry-on in relation to drugs, comparing their statements with those of Martin McGuinness and other SF people in the 1990s (they were almost interchangeable). The members of DAWC were in several different camps during the elections back in March, the 32 Co people attacking McCann's lot and vice-versa in the course of the election campaign etc.

BTW, there are also in the DAWC socialists, feminists, buddhists, anarchists, atheists, people with fairly conservative views - and all the wonderful variety of oddballs that you might expect in a group that is trying to swim against the stream.

And also by the way, the Nine are up in court again on Sept 3rd. This time they will be arraigned - which I think is when they plead guilty or not guilty. The trial is likely to start some weeks later but we are calling on anyone who can to be outside the court that morning.

by Ciaron Sat Aug 18, 2007 13:13

SEND POSTCARDS OF SUPPORT TO UK PEACE PRISONER MARCUS ARMSTRONG.

A peace activist who inspected aircraft at Prestwick airport in
Scotland in August 2006 in order to expose the refueling of US arms
supply planes to Israel during the invasion of Lebanon has been
jailed. Trident Ploughshares expects him to be released on Friday 24
August.

Letters (especially colourful picture postcards) are very welcome
before then (the sooner the better!).

Below is Marcus's address, and a report from a court witness:

Marcus Armstrong
HMP Kilmarnock
Bowhouse
KILMARNOCK
KA1 5AA

(emails sent to prisoners@tridentploughshares.org will also be forwarded on to
him)

>>Report on Marcus' case and trial:

During August 2006 US airforce planes, and planes chartered by them,
were stopping to refuel at Prestwick airport while delivering
munitions to the Israeli army. These bombs were then being used in the
indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon and Lebanese civilians.

Protestors gathered at Prestwick. Their aim was to raise awareness
among the population locally and worldwide and to try to stop the
flights.

Information in the press and public channels was incomplete and
contradictory. Some of the issues under discussion were Prestwick is a
civilian airport unsuitable for such military activity There was much
secrecy surrounding the flights. Why? Munitions passing through our
peaceful part of Ayrshire were killing innocent civilians elsewhere.

Shannon airport had already refused permission. Why was it granted at
Prestwick?

On 3 nights in early August some of the protestors broke into
Prestwick and to carry out a citizens inspection of the planes to
establish whether the flights were actually carrying munitions.

8 of these protestors were tried at Ayr sheriff court last week.

Evidence against them was incomplete.

After the first 5 days of the trail 7 were released.

Today (14 August) was the last day of the trial.

The last protestor, Marcus Armstrong, stood accused of breaking into
the airfield and boarding a plane.

Marcus bravely conducted his own defence. He didn't to deny the action
but defended his motives. It was, he said, his responsibility, right
and duty to try to protect the innocent civilians for whom the
munitions were destined.

He was trying to do this by gathering information, raising awareness
and perhaps he would be able to disrupt the flights.

Its a difficult thing for a civilian to defend himself in a court of
law. Marcus remained calm and focussed.

At the end of the day the sheriff found him guilty and fined him £750.
(The maximum for this offence is £5,000)

Marcus maintains that his action was not a criminal offence. He
refused to pay the fine and has chosen the alternative, [immediate]
imprisonment. The term of imprisonment is 28 days, though he is likely
to serve only half of this.

by Point Scorer Thu Aug 23, 2007 18:49

Well actually the 32 CSM IS considered to be the political wing of the RIRA. The beauty of the internet is that the facts can be put across to the general public and criminals and their excusers can do nothing to cover it up.

This is a well know fact and there are any amount of publications on the internet and in the media to highlight it; e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/32_County_Sovereignty_Movement

Yes the issue is the situation in the Lebanon, but since this site allows for debate in and around the topic I choose to point out the fact that hailing certain members of the Raytheon 9 as heros and claiming that they are non-violent is demeaning to the people who have been in the past and who continue to be victims at their behest.

I applaud the DAWC for what they are doing and especially “Anti war and arms trade - DAWC” for having the balls to stand up and admit that there are such people within their ranks, something which other members have strenuously denied in the past, even though its common knowledge. It is a pity however as it is a blemish on DAWCs standing in the local community especially, that they choose to incorporate thugs into their ranks.

by Barry - 32 csm Thu Aug 23, 2007 19:29

The nature of these smears against some of the Raytheon 9 is ironic considering the fact that since 1998 it has been members of the 32 csm in Derry whom have borne the brunt of a sustained campaign of thuggery from both Sinn Fein and the PSNI/RUC in attempts to silence them and their political analysis . This has included threats , death threats ,abductions and severe beatings from the states official and unofficial watchdogs respectively . This prolonged campiagn has been actively encouraged by politicians and plitical commentors accross the board , including the likes of the SDLP and Denis Bradley who along with the British governemnt have urged and thanked Sinn Fein/MI5 for "confronting" and "facing down " 32 csm members .
So to hear this sanctimonious hypocrisy is little surprise .
I dont believe any of the 32 csm embers would describe themselves as pacifists . I dont believe the DAWC itself requires one to be a pacifist . The drug dealing gangs of thugs that 32 csm in Derry and elsewhere have confronted certainly are not pacifists either . Neither are the hypocritical men and women of peace who brought these Raytheon merchants of mass slaughter to Derry and continue to support their vile presence .

These smears are identical to those directed against the early civil rights movement and the hysteria of state supporting mouthpieces at the fact republicans were amongst the ranks of those protestors . Its demonisation , propaganda and not even original propaganda at that .

Derry City council is complicit in mass murder , Raytheon is a stain on Derrys reputation . Time to get rid of it and quick . Such sniping and bullshit is of no use to anyone but Raytheon and its supporters .

by Jed Fri Aug 24, 2007 13:59

Me oul mate Barry.

Ever the spin merchant. You should be making a career of it boy, you get enough practice on here.

“The nature of these smears against some of the Raytheon 9 is ironic”
Now correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t see any smear the R9. Just comments pointing out one person’s disgust that some of them were being branded as non violent.

“considering the fact that since 1998 it has been members of the 32 csm in Derry whom have borne the brunt of a sustained campaign of thuggery from both Sinn Fein and the PSNI/RUC in attempts to silence them and their political analysis”
And 32 CSM/RIRA have done so much good in the community. I’m sure many people might just debate that, e.g. Some of the folk from Carn Hill forced to relocate after dogs abuse, the wee lad in Fergleen Park who rubbed someone up the wrong way, Cllr Ramsey forced to leave his home after multiple attacks, Cllr Bradley, still waiting for the shotgun damage on his house to be repaired.

“So to hear this sanctimonious hypocrisy is little surprise .”
Talk about the pot attacking the kettle!

“The drug dealing gangs of thugs that 32 csm in Derry and elsewhere have confronted certainly are not pacifists either”
Well yeah, they have to eliminate the competition somehow. Certainly the ones who refuse to pay the protection money, as we’ve seen recently in Ballymena.

“These smears are identical to those directed against the early civil rights movement and the hysteria of state supporting mouthpieces at the fact republicans were amongst the ranks of those protestors”
Fail to see how you can make a comparison against the Civil rights movement and people who have brutalised those within their own communities as well as wider afield e.g. the people of Omagh. What we have above is quite obviously someone who is either a victim or has some relation to victims voicing their disgust at the fact that people can overlook the deeds of others, at least when their beliefs happen to be on a par.

Seems to me that you are trying to imply that the comments you don’t like are being directed as a result or anti Republican or anti Raytheon feeling. None of these comments have mentioned support for Raytheon, have condemned all of the Raytheon 9 or have indicated hatred or resentment towards Republicans, so stop waving the “poor down trodden Irish Republican victim being victimised by the minions of the evil British empire” flag. At least try to find some fresh spin to try and discredit those who say what you don’t like. The stuff you’re using is like, soooooo last century.

“Its demonisation , propaganda and not even original propaganda at that”
A big like nearly every one of your comments on Indy Baz.

“ Such sniping and bullshit is of no use to anyone but Raytheon and its supporters .”
Aye. And you forgot to mention being of use to the lads who have committed crimes against their own people and who want it forgotten. And the ones who still try and maintain a powerbase within their own communities by using control and fear and violence and intimidation to further their own wee empires. Get Raytheon out yeah cos who wants merchants of death on their doorstep. Don’t stop there though. Get out the hoods and thugs and bully-boys as well. The ones who hide behind the political blanket and who excuse every one of their actions as being for the good of the people, and good oul Mother Ireland and blab la bla. They might not ruin lives on a mass scale. But they still ruin lives.

I look forward to your retort Bazza, no doubt loaded with accusations of my obvious anti Republican feeling, my being a British State sponsored lacky or loyalist lick-spittle. After all, isn’t everybody who doesn’t agree with everything you say, especially if they dare to criticise you in any way.

by Barry - 32 csm Fri Aug 24, 2007 15:14

Sure youre just ranting mindlessly and ive been listening to these very same rants about republicans since I was a child . If you wish to spend your time making personalised attacks on members of the Raytheon 9 , ex republican prisoners and 32 csm thats your perogative, however whatever your actual point is completely escapes me . I neither know nor care which political faction you support but its a fair bet they played no part in the Raytheon protest . If they are represented on Derry city council then for sure they are complicit in these merchants of deaths activities . Maybe your time would be better spent shouting the odds to them about that and the havoc wreaked by Raytheons products rather than ranting away about those who did make the effort and who now face jail as a result .
That you have more of a problem with 32 csm than the activities of the Raytheon company strikes me as both hypocritical and idiotic . But knock yourself out with another rant and carry on displaying both these patently useless qualities to your hearts content . Its pointless activity but if it makes you happy fire away .

by Jed Sat Aug 25, 2007 13:33

Hello Barry!
Thanks for your prompt response. Glad to see you're on form as usual.

“Sure youre just ranting mindlessly “
Yeah well, I had to lower myself to your level in order to try and get though to you, which judging by some of the things you wrote in your latest rant, I didn’t. Oh well, nothing beats a try.

“however whatever your actual point is completely escapes me “
My point, if you’d bothered to digest what I wrote, was that Point Scorer is obviously a victim, or linked to victim(s) of the people who don’t seem to be able to do any wrong in your eyes. My point was that you seemed more interested in attacking a victim who is speaking out than you and defending the people who made them victims in the first place. My point is that I consider you to be blinkered and completely incapable of seeing that SOME of the people who you are affiliated with are nothing more than criminals who hide behind the flag of Irish unification. My point is that until people like you open your eyes and condemn such people, the innocent of this country will continue to suffer at their hands.

“I neither know nor care which political faction you support but its a fair bet they played no part in the Raytheon protest .”
Dead wrong. My roots are firmly in Socialism and Socialism played a major part in the Raytheon protest. Ever hear of a man called Eamonn MCCann?

“That you have more of a problem with 32 csm than the activities of the Raytheon company strikes me as both hypocritical and idiotic .”
Again, try reading my comment above, the part where I've condemned both Raytheon and the criminal elements within our society. That you seem to be able to overlook the activities of some of your associates who are still involved in criminal activities strikes me as both hypocritical and idiotic.

“But knock yourself out with another rant and carry on displaying both these patently useless qualities to your hearts content”
Yep. I’m havin a ball thanks.

“Its pointless activity but if it makes you happy fire away .”
Well trying to get through to you is pretty pointless, as is convincing you that certain elements within the 32 CSM/RIRA have/still are abusing their positions and abusing the very people they claim to be trying to liberate.
Still I don’t consider it pointless to respond in defense of a victim when someone such as yourself tries to cheapen their comments by attempting to brand them anti-Republican or pro Raytheon and completely disregarding what they have to say .

I look forward to your next plethora of jibes about how you have always listened to Republicans being slaged off, how my comments are pointless and idiotic, how I am slandering some of the R9 and playing into Raytheon's hands and any of the other illegible rubbish you throw up when you haven't actually got anything tangible to respond with.

See ya!

by Barry - 32 csm Sat Aug 25, 2007 19:30

None of my associates or those ex prisoners who took part in the raytheon protest are involved in criminal activities . If you regard breaking British laws for political purposes as a criminal act then youve no business supporting the Raytheon protest . In fact all youve done in this thread is blacken the very people who took part in it, so i dont regard you as a supporter of it all . Merely some bedwetter on his high horse with god knows what agenda going on . The presence of 32 csm members on the protest has been thorougly debated amongst DAWC and supported by members from both religious backgrounds , They made up almost half of those arrested and were to the forefront of gaining actual physical entry to the premises . The locked security doors and security guards were not bypassed with polite conversation or a socialist slogan .
Of course its much easier to make unsubstantiated claims about criminality anonymously over the internet about former political prisoners than to actually put your neck on the line , and no doubt you will continue to do so . Nontheless even the most impartial observer can easily see such smears for what they are , utterly pointless .

.

by Anarcho Pacifist Sun Aug 26, 2007 07:07

From all reports the action at Raytheon was nonviolent and direct. These are the actions the 9 are being put on trial for. It seems a prosecutor's ploy to move the goalposts. Maybe you could have this character trial after the state is finished with them, if your purpose is other than simply to undermine and isolate the defendants. Again leave that to the state, that is what the prison system is there for.

Personally I'd rather see the republcan tradition morph into nonviolent direct action against Raytheon and imperial wars than the well trodden dead end of parliamentarism. But hey that's just me.

It was a great action at Raytheon the support is not calling for canonisation or hero worship but for solidarity as they face the courts. It is impressive that the defendants have travelled to meet the victims of Raytheon's bombs. You never know this could be a learning experience for all those involved including a reconsidering of tactics etc. I personally think that nonviolent direct action i ssuch a great thing that it's a good growing experience for whoever takes it. But hey that's just me.

by anti war and anti arms trade - DAWC Mon Aug 27, 2007 13:16

Barry needs to be careful that he does not echo the lies of the bourgeois press when he says that the 32CSM members of the Raytheon 9 were "to the fore" in gaining access to the building. This is not true. In fact, while their bulk ( ! ) helped in pushing through the first door, they then were very careful to let the socialists do the main work between the first and second door as the security guard was already crying "assault". The cops themselves, with the help of CCTV footage, were fairly clear that it was SWP members, including a woman who was later arrested but not charged, who made sure that the protestors made it through the second door. This wasn't surprising as they'd occupied the building before and knew the crack.

This is not to diminish the role of the 32CSM people, just to emphasise that they, like all the DAWC members who were trying to get into Raytheon, were determined that no violence would be used. In fact, before we set off from our gathering place that morning, Gretti Horgan of the SWP made a little speech reminding everyone that this was to be a piece of non-violent direct action and under no circumstances was anyone to lift a finger to anyone else. But here in Derry all those who support the establishment are trying to make out that we wouldn't have gotten in to Raytheon if it hadn't been for the 32CSM people - but that's a load of b*ll**ks, we'd gotten in in 2003 when there were no 32CSM people there. We never needed force, just brains!!

by Deanta - 32CSM Wed Aug 29, 2007 23:28

I have just recently come across this as I was on the recent trip to Lebannon. I am totally disgusted by the attacks on my comesrades in the 32CSM who wetre involved in the Raytheon protest and our movement in general.If any one is suggesting that our movement is involved in drugs in any way or criminality they are very badly mistaken or are working for the British. I will state clearly here, we have no involvement in any criminal activity and have been to the fore in the fight against drug dealers and anti-social elements, this is what really rankels with some on here I suspect. Be assured mo chairde we willl stand agaisnt criminals and the Brits no matter what the slures or the price. Maybe our friend Jed will put his convictions where his mouth is next time the fight for right might require a jail sentence, I very much doubt it though, more chance he will be found in a compromising position with scum or maybe he already has, saying no-one knows who he is.

by Jed Fri Aug 31, 2007 00:21

Hello again Baz.

"None of my associates or those ex prisoners who took part in the raytheon protest are involved in criminal activities"
Really?. Come to Derry and talk to the people of Shantallow and Galiagh. They might just tell you a different story. But there again, if they do, they're obviously British agents.

"If you regard breaking British laws for political purposes as a criminal act then youve no business supporting the Raytheon protest"
So you agree with murdering innocent civilians for political purposes? After all isn't that what your Armed Wing did in Omagh? Please explain to me how this is justified and not criminal?

"In fact all youve done in this thread is blacken the very people who took part in it"
You obviously don't read very good. After you tried to maul a victim for daring to criticise some of your 32 CSM muckers I pointed out the sheer hyprocasy of the points you tried to make. We have been sparring ever since.

"so i dont regard you as a supporter of it all"
Well I'll try not to let that upset me too much. But there again I don't really rate the opinion of a man who factions himself with people who consider mass murder of innocent people very highly anyway..

"Merely some bedwetter on his high horse with god knows what agenda going on"
Ohhhh has my wife been talking! Thank god for rubber sheets.
You're the expert on being on high-horse lad. Indy is strewn with stories saturated with your ravings. As for my agenda. Its called standing up to the bullies, which is what you have done to the person above.

"The presence of 32 csm members on the protest has been thorougly debated amongst DAWC and supported by members from both religious backgrounds"
Uh huh. And suffered for it. Lie down with dogs and get fleas.

"The locked security doors and security guards were not bypassed with polite conversation or a socialist slogan"
As has been pointed our DAWC friend above they didn't need their help to get in in the past. They were along for the ride - not the driving force. As said above, the Socialists were the driving force, eapecially Eamonn and Goretti.

"Of course its much easier to make unsubstantiated claims about criminality anonymously over the internet about former political prisoners than to actually put your neck on the line"
Unsubstantiated. Come to Derry. Talk to the ordinary people. Ah the old "Unsubstantiated" spin line. How do you want me to put my neck on the line? Maybe publish my name and address? Yeah sure. I'm sure my life would become very "interesting" after that.

"Nontheless even the most impartial observer can easily see such smears for what they are , utterly pointless"
Unlike the mass of smears, oops, I mean observations you've directed at various people and organisations on this very site over the years. I do what you do Barry. I offer my opinion, state what has helped me to arive at it. which is what you and every other poster on this site does. instead of using words like "smear" and "utterly pointless" and leaving it at that, I challenge you to proove my opinions are wrong by offering something substancial to counter them as opposed to a bunch of random sentences thrown together.

Cya!

by Jed Fri Aug 31, 2007 00:38

Yes Deanta
Welcome home.

"If any one is suggesting that our movement is involved in drugs in any way or criminality they are very badly mistaken"

Now we've already established that the 32 CSM is the political wing of the RIRA (although at least one of your members doesn’t seem to realize it – see above). At the risk of sending Bazza of in one of his "this is unsubstiantated" rants, I will merely say it is not unreasonable to assume that SOME of the 32 CSM members also cross-over into the ranks of the RIRA. Now recent reports have tied the RIRA to a number of criminal activities, such as:

Burning local businesses (E.g. Derry and Newry - substantianed)
Protecting drug dealers for kick backs (substantianed)
Smuggling (substantianed)
Intimidation (substantianed)
Driving people from their homes (substantianed)
Arson (substantianed)
Murder (substantianed)
Bombing (substantianed)
Secterian attacks (substantianed)
Extorting money from foreign workers (substantianed)

Now if you 32 CSM guys are the political wing of the RIRA and its reasonable to assume that some of your members are possibly also members of the RIRA (easy Barry!) and the RIRA has been proven to be involved in criminal activities from viable sources (IMC, Newspapers, TV Journalists – if you continue to deny this then I will be happy to publish credible and unbiased sources as proof) then how can you claim that the 32 CSM is in no way involved in criminal activities?

“I will state clearly here, we have no involvement in any criminal activity and have been to the fore in the fight against drug dealers and anti-social elements“

Does this include the ones in Ballymena that the RIRA have been taking kickbacks from (substantiated)?

“he will be found in a compromising position with scum or maybe he already has, saying no-one knows who he is.”
Thanks. That actually made me laugh out loud. Don’t really see how me being caught in bed with 3 hookers or in a public toilet with George Michael (unsubstantiated!!!) helps the cause of freedom and peace and Irish unity. Still I guess its better than attacking Protestant homes, demanding money from Polish workers, costing local people their jobs by burning down their places of employment or blowing innocent people to smithereens as they go about their daily business, like your armed wing has done and is still doing (substantiated).

You can drop the holier than thou act Deanta. You're not talking to some foreign jouranalist or some American tourist. I'm a working class man from a working class background with roots in the heart of the Catholic community in Derry. I know what really goes on in our humble wee country, as do the mass of readers on Indy. Its amusing to see people like yourself and Barry try to argue black white, but hey if it floats your boat then go for it.

Tell you what. Instead of writing off everything I've said, ask me to provide proof to substantiate my claims and the subject matter which has helped me arrive at my conclusions. If/when I do you can review it and THEN tell me why you think I'm wrong.

Fair enough?

by Deanta - 32csm Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:11

I have checked into your aligations regarding Ballymena and im told theres no so-called RIRA presence there so Id love you to substanciate your nonsence. If you view the IMC and the Brits as credible sources it says alot for you my friend. The Army doesnt extort money from forigeners or drug dealers, as you stated yourself it has been very active in targeting these scum, infact you call it intimidation lol. The only actions the Army has been engaged in are the ones they claim, However I would concede that some individuals may use the name of certain organisations from time to time for their own activities, but rest assured when found Id say they would be dealt with in a manner fitting their crime. I see you are very shy in declaring your aligance, are you a brit or a hood? Sounds like the second on to me, your very quick to defend them.

by Sean Oglach Fri Aug 31, 2007 16:18

I am a former volunteer in the Provisional IRA and was once proud of the fact. Not anymore, I often despair at the fact that I've seen so many comrades die in the prime of their lives, while I was lucky just to lose a few years of mine in prison and all for a lie. What were the previous 30 years really about? Getting SF ready for power? What we have in place was achievable in 1973, in fact I believe that the Civil Rights association could have achieved as much.
What we have now are Shinners no different to the SDLP other than they have an efficient money making machine in operation in the guise of bars security firms etc. attempting to whitewash over their part in continued partition.
As for the Dissidents RIRA, 32 CSM or whatever, I see them as microcosms of the Shinners, armchair generals sending the youth out to do the dirty work while they reap the rewards.
Stop hiding behind ideals and using the images of fallen Volunteers to further your own personal agendas, the Shinners might be getting away with it but you are too small and quite frankly a joke.
Eamon Mc Cann, a great orator, who according to him was the only one marching for Civil Rights, and likes the sound of his own voice. However no one died because of him.

by socialist Fri Aug 31, 2007 16:33

Eamonn McCann has never given the impression he was the only one to march for civil rights. Quite the opposite. I have heard him talk many times about civil rights, free Derry etc and he always emphasises the fact that it was a mass movement. In fact, he always makes the point that it was the mass movement of the civil rights period that achieved most of the reforms around the vote and housing. Just as today, he still argues that it is a mass movement against the war, not the activities of a small group of activists however bold, that is needed to take on the war mongers.

by Anarchist Pacifist Fri Aug 31, 2007 16:44

Jed, i note you have not responded to my previous post.

Whether you are conscious of it or not you are serving the role of the prosecution in this case. Yours is a tactic used on the Catholic Workers who were on trial at the Four Courts...trying to bait them on indymedia with isssues that weren't anything to with what they were charged with. Hope they bite and let the Prosecution google and bring it up on cross examination. This happened at all of their three trials. The prosecution are desperate to move the goalposts away from the works of Raytheon and Irish complicity in these third world wars.

If you are sincere, surely you can wait until the state has dealt with these defendants on the srious charges that carry serious time before starting this cyber kangaroo court.

If you're not sincere why have you so little faith in the state prosecution against the nine defendants?

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Aug 31, 2007 17:02

To join the last two messages above, surely the issue here, and the subject of the thread, is the courageous activity of the Derry Anti War Coalition...both re:the occupation and outing of Raytheon, publicising what this company is involved in and the murderous impact of its products, but also, and in my opinion CRUCIAL fact, that they have created active links with the people of Qana, visiting Lebanon twice in solidarity, and working with Lebanese activists.
The Irish Anti War Movement, of which the DAWC is an integral part, supports fully the Raytheon 9 / 10 - all of them, with no exceptions, no ifs and buts.
Debates about the past, present and future of the Provisional Movement, and all of its more recent variants, while crucial for the development of the Left and socialist movement in the 32 Counties, should take place with seriousness and patience in other [new?]threads of Indymedia. As noted above, to pick and choose between activists, and to goad individuals right now, is playing right into the hands of the Brit and the Free States.......

Solidarity with the Rayheon 9.

Watch this space for upcoming events.

by Sean Oglach Fri Aug 31, 2007 17:04

I often heard him refer to the fact that many who have claimed to be on Duke Street etc where not actually there.
Never-the-less I have more respect for Eamon than those who sent us out to fight for a lie.

by Socialist Sat Sep 01, 2007 18:17

I know because I interviewed him for my dissertation on the civil rights movement. And, yes, he did say that if the number of people who now say they were in Duke St on Oct 5th, or on Craigavon Bridge the following week, or at Burntollet Bridge for that matter really had been there, the lives of those trying to organise the civil rights movement would have been a lot easier. This is clearly aimed at the likes of John Hume, though, who waited until it was clear this was going to be a mass movement before deciding to try to 'lead' it. Once the movement was established and got going, McCann is clear that it was the masses on the streets and, in particular, the women who downed tools and walked out of the shirt factories in their thousands who really took the movement forward [and he's quite funny about both the 'gender blindness' of the mainly male leadership of NICRA, including himself, and the women themselves chanting "one man, one vote"].

Further, when I asked him for an interview about his role in the civil rights movement, he told me that there were others who did a lot more than him and had more to say but did not get interviewed, for example, Dermot McClenaghan, his friend who started the Housing Action Committee and who gets the credit in print from McCann in his book War and an Irish Town.

In fact, the message that I took away from my interview with him was that the armed struggle, while perhaps inevitable after Bloody Sunday, was unnecessary in order to get the kind of reforms that Sinn Fein have settled for in the North almost 40 years on as the mass movement had frightened the ruling class into seeing the need for reform.

by Jed Mon Sep 03, 2007 21:41

Apologies Anarchist Pacifist
I don’t get on the net as much as I’d like so I only had time to respond to the more fanatical comments (which I enjoyed reading) the last time I was on.

”Whether you are conscious of it or not you are serving the role of the prosecution in this case. “
I am not a lawyer. I am not a judge. This is not a court. I started on this latest discussion in response to what I saw as petty ignorance directed towards someone who it seems has suffered hurt in some way and the totally insensitive and hateful way they were responded to. I don’t like bullies so I felt compelled to comment accordingly. I have merely offered my opinion while countering those I disagree with (and ok, being bit of a cheeky b******d as well). It is up to the individual readers of this site how they want to take it. I doubt very much if what I post on this web site will have any bearing on the R9 trial. So I think you are blowing things out of proportion just a littleeeeee bit.

“Yours is a tactic used on the Catholic Workers who were on trial at the Four Courts”
Tactic? I think you’re seeing plots and schemes where none exist. I am as entitled to offer my opinion as you or any other person on this site.

“...trying to bait them on indymedia with issues that weren't anything to with what they were charged with.”
This is getting silly now. Read further back in this story to the comments addressed at Point Scorer. I jumped on the bandwagon and hit back at the people who hit out at someone else. If you want to think of it as baiting, well so be it.

“Hope they bite and let the Prosecution google and bring it up on cross examination.”
Oh FFS, do you really think that for one minute the case for the defense would sit there while the case for the prosecution turns round to the judge and says “I would like to submit exhibit D, Mi Lord. A printout of discussions held on the Indymedia site between a victim of RIRA violence and members of the 32 CSM”. They’d be laughed out of court. Its called hear-say and it not admissible as evidence.
Get real.

“ This happened at all of their three trials. The prosecution are desperate to move the goalposts away from the works of Raytheon and Irish complicity in these third world wars.”
Yeah and what bearing did it have on the result. Zilch.

”If you are sincere, surely you can wait until the state has dealt with these defendants on the srious charges that carry serious time before starting this cyber kangaroo court.”
So because I disagree with the fact that an anti-War movement has voted on and decided to accept the political wing of a paramilitary organization which still remains on active service and still carries out actions which hurt people, then I should say nothing? What you are proposing merely protects the guilty and denies the victims their right to free speech.

“If you're not sincere why have you so little faith in the state prosecution against the nine defendants?”
I have little faith in court which is backed by both corporations and the British government. In the same idiom, I have little respect for an anti-war organization which allows terrorists and their supporters within their ranks. I know numbers are important. But, to me at least, conscious is more important. Other anti-war movements have very small memberships, but they make up for it with the passion and flair. The DAWC has at its heart one of the most widely respected and intellectual campaigners of our time - Eamonn McCann. Had DAWC used this to better effect instead of opting to utilize the clout of, shall we say, less ethical campaigners, then they would not have left themselves open to the kind of exploitation you are suggesting. They were told so. They didn’t listen. Hindsight’s a great teacher.

The 32 CSM have their own agenda in the Raytheon campaign – i.e. its nothing to do with anti-war – its the fact that Raytheon are working for the Brit government. Do you honestly believe that for one moment that they would have shown the same, hell, any interest in this if Raytheon worked solely for the Irish or French or Mongolian governments? Of course not.

by Jed Mon Sep 03, 2007 21:59

Well Deanta.

If I may be so bold to contradict you, but.....

“have checked into your aligations regarding Ballymena and im told theres no so-called RIRA presence there so Id love you to substanciate your nonsence.”

Nice to see you’re so well connected. Did you ask the boys in the Army Council, or did you just consult your mates down the pub on Saturday night? Ok then. Try some of these links from CREDIBLE sources which discuss the recent criminal activities of your Army.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=...09147
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5405858.stm
http://saoirse32.blogsome.com/2005/10/19/
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=...21845
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/northern_ireland/5405858.stm

“If you view the IMC and the Brits as credible sources it says alot for you my friend.”
The Brits, no. The IMC, yes. Isn’t it funny how people such as yourself swing back and forward when it comes to what the IMC say. When they point out the criminal activities of the Loyalist terror gangs then you’re all for them and couldn’t agree more. When they speak out against your faction then they can’t be trusted and working for the Brits and all the usual oul shite you use to excuse away their findings.

“The Army doesnt extort money from forigeners or drug dealers”
Nah. It gets it money to continue active service across Ireland from charity nights and car boot sales.
Again, read the links.

“as you stated yourself it has been very active in targeting these scum”
So then presumably you consider Councillers Ramsey and Bradley whose homes were attacked by “The army” as being scum? Have a look on the Derry Journal or Belfast Telegraph web sites.
Why did this happen? Because they spoke out against your politics? Or will you deny these attacks took place? If not, please explain to me why they were justified ?

“infact you call it intimidation lol.”
Well its sad to see that people driven out of their homes or their families’ subjected to violent attacks in their homes is funny to you. Kinda says a lot about the type of person you are.

“The only actions the Army has been engaged in are the ones they claim”
LMAO! You mean the ones that it suits them to claim. All the dirty little deeds to gather funds and line the pockets of certain members can be conveniently overlooked. Next you’ll be telling us your Army’s training programme involves stroking kittens and learning the best way to lead old women across the road.

“However I would concede that some individuals may use the name of certain organisations from time to time for their own activities but rest assured when found Id say they would be dealt with in a manner fitting their crime”
Yeah. Beat the crap out of the ones who claim to be members and do it. Do nothing about the ones who are members and who do it. and don't forget to threaten the witnesses and scare them into silence. After all, its only really a crime providing the person who commits it isn’t a member or connected in some way.

“I see you are very shy in declaring your aligance"
I have. Read my comments above.

“you a brit or a hood?”Sounds like the second on to me, your very quick to defend them.”
Ah, the great fallback line. When all else fails, resort to the “You are a Brit/Loyalist/Member of the Orange Order/Anti-Catholic/Alien (delete as applicable)” line to try and to find some excuse for the fact that there are those within the Catholic community who view your army as nothing more than a bunch of scum-bags who are more interested in venting their lust for causing trouble and wanton destruction (did I mention Omagh, Derry, Newry?) then they are in working towards a peaceful and fair Ireland of equals. You just can't accept that most people don't see you and your mates with the same wonderful wee rose-tinted glasses you do and have to find some reason to excuse it away.

Take a long hard look at most of the decent people on this island. By your definition most of them are "Brit Hoods".

by Deanta - 32CSM Tue Sep 04, 2007 00:19

Oh dear jed you really do make this too easy, so your so-called independant sources are the Unionist News Letter and Belfast telegraph the BBC and the IMC not very independant in anyones eyes mo chara. Firstly no republican, not even the provos would hail the IMC to be independant. They as an organisation much like your good self make all sorts of outlandish claims without any proof. The only 2 things you have right in your last rant are that the so-called RIRA were responsible for the bomb in Omagh and the firebombing of Nerwy. In my opinion one was a tradegy the other a legitimate economic operation. No proof have you on your lies about back handers from druggies or extorting money from foreign workers. How many republicans have been caught engaged in these activities? none you lieing toerag, because they dont do it. Now why dont you take the advice of another poster on here and start a slander thread somewhere else this thread is about the suffering of the lebanese and actions linked to helping them, and I dont suspect you will be contributing much to that.