War-planes at Shannon, Galway and Limerick

by realist Mon Jun 25, 2007 05:32

typical sensationalist tripe.

the comparison to people arriving at a car crash - do you actually belive this or are you just trying to be drama queen!?

by Former pacifist Mon Jun 25, 2007 08:33

The A-10 Thunderbolt is the coolest!

Especially the giant cannon under the nose than shred a main battle tank from miles away!

Deadly!

by Biker Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:25

Yes, it's particularly cool when dropping bombs on your children, including cluster bombs or firing its missiles or heavy machine gun. Anyone who thinks that's cool is sick.

by still pacifist Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:37

" a thunderbolt is the coolest " - just what the recipients of what these war machines bring also think, or actually, its the view of people who'll never have to worry about what sound it makes as it zooms overhead exercising its full repertoire of armoury mistaking a school, hospital, library for a " main battle tank many miles away"......then again these are the same people who also believe the main stream medias colloqualism for these actions as "subsidizing assets"....

by karen fallon Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:51

It's so not "cool" tho allow the prostitution of your civillian airports to murderers and dictators.

How cool would it be if you were on the recieving end of that great big cannon? and your friends and familly blasted to tiny little bits?
How cool is that?

The people who are allowing this to carry on and those who turn a blind eye are WAR CRIMINALS.

thank you ed and connor and others for your continual courage to document and resist.

by jihad joe Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:05

The stupidity of some Irish people ....These men in there flying war- machines are paraded arround as being heroic and courageous. They title them as 'Officers', ..'and by defifntion ...a Gentleman' Nothing could be further from the truth.
Those who admire this sort of military pornography with out thought for those they kill havent seen the mess they leave behind. For those who, from a distance, show appreciation for this destruction of humanity dont know what it is like because if they did they would know that to carry out these atrocities you must first be de-humanised your self, secondly, the mothers, fathers and children you are sent to kill must be de-humanised for you also, in order that you can take their lives with impunity. Thirdly, when you have done this you are no longer part of the human race as you once knew it.
You are not a hero, you are not brave, you are not courageous, you are a psychotic trained killer.
Just like the SAS/Paras in the North sent to kill Irish people...but that was in the past. These 'men/ officers' were protected by annonymity during the proceedings investigating their attack on the Catholic communities in Derry...hows that for bravery.
All Hitlers men commit suicide in the end because thet were cowards.

by dirk Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:58

the point is that if we allow this type of air show and stop overs we will never have to experience our schools being bombed form above.you are either with them or against them

by A10 Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:58

Of the big tough Mujahiadeen and Iraqui terrorists to use their holy buildings,schools and hospitals as hideouts for their arms and their terror tactics.If you are going to do that,you are violating any rules of war or civillised behaviour.So fine if they want to play like that,expect collatoral damage.
As I expected the Anti American crowd,went and used an accident to promote their sick agenda here.

by Kieran O'Sullivan - IAWM Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:45

Leaving aside the guy who thinks that war planes are cool.
Ed has raised a very serious issue here namely the visit to a GAA club by US Soldier. The GAA has always claimed not to be a political organisation. I will certainly be making a complaint to the GAA abut this.

Given the row at the moment about diciplin within the GAA it is ironic that the GAA is condemning one violent incident and apparently condoning another by bringing a US soldier to meet children.

It would be nice to get a quote from the GAA about this.

by realist Mon Jun 25, 2007 14:02

I believe you'll find he's an Airman, not a soldier.

As for them being called officers? THATS WHAT THEY ARE.

They go to university, they go throught training for years and are comissioned as an officer. The SAS units in NI would have one officer in command of an operation, but it is his men that would carry it out, same for paras.

Ye could try and learn a bit about the military before trashing it all the time.

by realist really Mon Jun 25, 2007 14:11

you too could learn about the military

the sas operate as self contained units and operational patrols can have officers or not and even if they are on a patrol they do not necessarily command the patrol.

by Coilin Mon Jun 25, 2007 14:27

There's no such thing as a free lunch, and no such thing as a free air show either. I note that sponsors of the Salthill Air Show are listed here: http://www.salthillairshow.com/sponsors.html

As public funds have been spent on this military exhibition, it might be well worthwhile complaining to elected members of Galway City Council. I note that Fáilte Ireland, the National Tourism Development Authority, was established under the National Tourism Development Authority Act, 2003. So it would seem appropriate to complain to your local TD, and to the department and minister for tourism as well.

After all, why should peace-loving citizens be compelled to pay for this kind of military vanity show out of our taxes? Let those who go to the show pay for themselves, if this show must be held at all.

See contact details for Galway City Council and for the minister and department of tourism below.

*** Galway City Council

Please complain to Galway City Council:
Customer Services Section via email: enquiries@galwaycity.ie or telephone: 091 536597.
City Hall Address: Galway City Council, City Hall, College Road, Galway

Also, please complain to members of Galway City Council.

There are 15 elected members who are elected from three local electoral areas:
North and East Ward - 7 Councillors
West Ward - 4 Councillors
South Ward - 4 Councillors

Their names and contact details can be found here:
http://www.galwaycity.ie/AllServices/YourCouncil/Counci...Ward/
http://www.galwaycity.ie/AllServices/YourCouncil/Counci...Ward/
http://www.galwaycity.ie/AllServices/YourCouncil/Counci...Ward/

Naturally, it is probably best to complaiin to those members who have been elected in the ward where you yourself live.

*** Fáilte Ireland

Please complain to Fáilte Ireland:
Phone: 00 353 (0) 91 537700
Fax: 00 353 (0) 91 537733
Email: info@irelandwest.ie
Address: Fáilte Ireland West Region, Áras Fáilte, Forster Street, Galway.

The Tourism and Corporate Services Divisions are located in the Kildare Street building and the Arts and Sports Divisions in the South Frederick Street Building with the exception of the following units which have now decentralised to Fossa, Killarney.
...
Tourism Development Unit
Minister's Constituency Office

So the most relevant contact details would seem to be as follows:
Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism,
23 Kildare Street, Dublin 2 and
Fossa, Killarney, Co Kerry

Nó as Gaeilge mar seo a leanas:
An Roinn Ealaíon, Spoirt agus Turasoireachta, 23 Sraid Chill Dara, Baile Atha Cliath 2 agus
Fossa, Cill Áirne, Co Chiarraí

Phone and Fax:
Telephone............................(+353 1) 631 3800
Telephone (Fossa)..............(+353 64) 27300
Lo-Call Telephone Service
(if calling outside the (01) area)...............1890 383 000
(if calling from outside 06 area)...............1890 27 3000
Fax Numbers Dublin
Kildare Street..................................(+353 1) 661 1201

** Minister's Constituency Office............(+353 64) 27310 **
** Office of the Minister.................(+353 1) 631 3802 **

Best,
Coilín.

by Marcus Aurelius Mon Jun 25, 2007 14:37

It would appear that at least one Mayo County Councillor has mooted the idea - roundly defeated, thank God - that USAF 'planes and other US 'aircraft might land at Knock airport!

by Miffed - none Mon Jun 25, 2007 16:20

Can some of you neo-con's please explain what the term Anti-American means.Because, being from the U.S and totaly opposed to the war on terror,bush and the U.S's imperialist forigen policy dose that make me ANTI-ME. I must be an EMO or something. Or dose anti american mean anti jazz,anti-free speech or that i dont admire the millions of people that marched in the U.S aginst Vietnam,Nuclear Weapons or the War on Terror. Im puzzeld!

by Deirdre Clancy Mon Jun 25, 2007 16:24

Warplanes may be cool when you're a seven-year-old boy who doesn't actually fully understand what they are capable of, but not particularly cool when you're a young Iraqi or otherwise Middle Eastern boy (or indeed, girl) who understands all too well, because several of your limbs are missing. It's a matter of perspective and is that basic when it comes down to it.

Thanks to Ed and co. for keeping the issue alive and not giving in to the general fickleness that seems to have hit vast amounts of previously committed people, including the leadership of the Greens. Your energy in documenting the unsavoury and unthinkable knows no bounds; long may it continue. Those of us who have taken time out from it all, either through necessity or fatigue, are eternally grateful to you for keeping the issue alive. Hope to join your efforts in the near future though ...

by Miffed - reply to realist Mon Jun 25, 2007 16:32

My good man i think it is you who would want to go and learn a bit about the military.While in university the not yet commissioned officer is known as a CADET.The term of airman is actualy the guys who work on the ground with the planeson the ground from moving the planes to stowing them with equipment and supplies.Now grasshopper go learn some more.

by realist Mon Jun 25, 2007 20:50

You misunderstood me, I was trying to explain that a cadet has to go through training before becoming an officer, and that not all those employed by the military are officers.

While Airman is indeed one of the lower ranks of enlisted personnell, it is the correct term to call a member of the USAF. I was pointing out that soldier is an incorrect term.
USAF are Airmen
USN are Sailors
USMC are marines
US Army are soldiers.

by Mark O'Connor Mon Jun 25, 2007 20:51

I stood in the sun and rain yesterday to watch the thrilling game between Limerick and Tipp. A great occasion for the GAA and Limerick.

It makes me sick to my stomach today to learn that the Na Piarsaigh club, a ground where I played as a child, hosted this US army killer and allowed him have an audience with these children. I only hope that the children have their own cop on to know that killing is never cool. The adults who organised this event appear to have no cop on.

Ireland is in denial. We are complicit in these killings in Iraq and Afghanistan. But the Irish system/herd seems to let it continue.

The machine has working Irish people by the balls. The perception is 'if you mess with the USA, you'll lose your jobs, houses, economy etc.'

But this is not the case. After French opposition to the Iraq invasion, American investment in France actually went up. Multinationals don't care about war, only profit. If war brings more profit, then that's fine by them. They will pull out of Ireland if we become unviable and wont think twice, irrespective of our stance on Shannon.

This issue is not a left/right argument. Or neo-con/hippy thing. Crimes against humanity are being committed by the USA in these wars. Soft power, Hollywood culture and American propaganda feed us the dream that they are the good guys. But they are trained killers killing innocent people in the name of the 'war on terror' policy that most observers believe is making things worse for the USA, not better.

If Ireland really was a 'friendly nation' to the USA, they would withdraw landing rights at Shannon and tell them their 'war on terror' is making things worse for them and the whole middle East.

I have friends in the USA, and am sorry my country isn't being more of a friend.

I think Irish people have cop on. And deep down if we can appeal to the good nature inside all of us, we'll get along better. The American actions are causing harm to generations of these countries and for the citizens in the USA as well.

If we're supposed to be the confident nation we think we are, we should have the balls to stand up and say STOP.

peace and solidarity,
Mark.

by paul o toole Mon Jun 25, 2007 21:19

This is straight from beavis and butt head. It's easy to recognise stupidity, especially when there is no attempt to disguised it.

I have to laugh at some of the people posting here and their definition of brave men etc. Theres nothing brave about starving a country for 12 years killing 1.5 million of its people, disarming it TWICE, eliminating every and any means of defending it self and then sending in the most advanced military machine opperated by ruthless ill trained soldiers to use the most sophisticated military hardware ever concieved to bomb them back to the stone age and try and finish them off......well it's failed. So much for all your military crap
Cowards i call them, cowards i tell ya. The lot of them. Including the greatest cowards of them all...Bush (military dodger), Blair and Bertie. Yello to the core.
Since when is genocide a brave act, and when did it become family entertainment to see these most vulgar creations mankind ever created flying about the sky doing tricks.

by confused Tue Jun 26, 2007 02:36

Just wondering what all of these anti war and anti murder protesters were doing when the Taliban were murdering and committing atrocities against the natives and when Saddam was up to his tricks. Hitler is only trailing on behind him. At least the Alliance has tried to do something about this albeit for their own reasons.

Where were you when this was going on, were you protesting then probably not. What solution are you proposing now besides being just anti USA and anti democracy

by Miffed - To Confused Tue Jun 26, 2007 07:22

Once again with this anti-U.S.A thing.Could you please look my previous post on that issue and explain what ANTI-USA means. I only see anti-us goverment policy postings on this thread. As for the Taliban/Sadam and their attrocities. Sadam was put in power and armed by the U.S. They only went aginst him after he invaded Kuwait because he didnt ask their permission before hand. Im not going to get into the whole in's and out's of it because i'll be here all day.I reckomed you read up on the opec oil embargo in the 70's and what happend with U.S Corpratocracy in the middle east in the following years of the embargo. As for the Taliban also put in power by the U.S and the recipieants of $3.4 billion during their jihad aginst the former soviet union. Now im not condoning the attrocities of either rather what im trying to say is that for the last 60 years the U.S has not gone one year without being involved in some sort of military operation/war. Most of the people they have fought have been fomer allies put in power directly /indirectly (c.i.a/funding of some sort) by themselves.And when they turn aginst the U.S or their political ideoligy looks in any democratic or socialist they (in the eyes of the u.s government ) must go either peacefully or by force. Where is the justice in all this. Another example is look at Iran.90% of all military stuctures for personel bases to missile's and launch sites were costructed by the u.s and armed by the u.s military during the mid 70's. According to the u.s defence department the missiles were for Irans protection aginst Iraq,Syria,Lebanon and ISRAEL.Now look how the tables have turned? It all comesdown to one thing "OIL" and the bettering of America Corperative intrests around the globe to boost the profits of the rich owners of said corperations. The government of my country would do and metaphoricaly have ,done a deal with the devil to push their own intrests abroad.

by Miffed Tue Jun 26, 2007 07:44

Anti Democracy?Did the 1,000,000 innocent Iraqi children who died because of the embargos imposed on Iraq by the west use their Democratic to die. And looking around the globe America would not be known to overthrow or attempt to overthrow Democaticaly elected goverments now,would they?CUBA,VIENTAM,VENEZUALA,CHILE,EL SALVADOR,HAITI,NICARAGUA,IRAN,COSTA RICA,GUATEMALA,BRAZIL,PANAMA,HONDURAS,BOLIVIA,ARGENTINA and INDONESIA to name but only a few.The tip of the iceberg.

by Miffed Tue Jun 26, 2007 07:47

Pardon my spelling.Late nite.

by Miffed Tue Jun 26, 2007 07:57

The youth of Iraq are being scarred forever by the Bush regime's imperialist war which only produces more and more atrocities every day.

The Washington Post
Updated: 8:55 p.m. PT June 25, 2007
BAGHDAD - Marwa Hussein watched as gunmen stormed into her home and executed her parents. Afterward, her uncle brought her to the Alwiya Orphanage, a high-walled compound nestled in central Baghdad with a concrete yard for a playground. That was more than two years ago, and for 13-year-old Marwa, shy and thin with walnut-colored eyes and long brown hair, the memory of her parents' last moments is always with her. "They were killed," she said, her voice trailing away as she sat on her narrow bed with pink sheets. Tears started to slide down her face. As social worker Maysoon Tahsin comforted her, other orphans in the room, where 12 girls sleep, watched solemnly.

Iraq's conflict is exacting an immense and largely unnoticed psychological toll on children and youth that will have long-term consequences, said social workers, psychiatrists, teachers and aid workers in interviews across Baghdad and in neighboring Jordan.

"With our limited resources, the societal impact is going to be very bad," predicted Haider Abdul Muhsin, one of the country's few child psychiatrists. "This generation will become a very violent generation, much worse than during Saddam Hussein's regime."

Since the U.S.-led invasion, 4 million Iraqis have fled their homes, half of them children, according to the United Nations Children's Fund. Many are being killed inside their sanctuaries -- at playgrounds, on soccer fields and in schools. Criminals are routinely kidnapping children for ransom as lawlessness goes unchecked. Violence has orphaned tens of thousands.

Marwa copes by taking care of her sisters Aliyah, 9, and Sura, 7, Tahsin explained. Marwa helps them with their homework and bathes them. On the playground, she keeps careful watch.

"She's trying to substitute for the role of their mother," said Tahsin, who has been a social worker for 15 years. "But even as she tries to fill this gap, she is in deep need for emotional support as well."

Witnesses to war
Short and lean with a square jaw, Abdul Muhsin started to focus on children only last year. Like many of the estimated 60 psychiatrists who remain in Iraq, he treated only adults before the invasion. Back then, he said, children with psychological problems were a rarity.

Inside his bare office at Ibn Rushed Psychiatric Hospital, where armed guards frisk patients at the entrance, he flipped through a thick ledger of patients. In the past six months, he has treated 280 children and teenagers for psychological problems, most ranging in age from 6 to 16. In his private clinic, he has seen more than 650 patients in the past year.

In a World Health Organization survey of 600 children ages 3 to 10 in Baghdad last year, 47 percent said they had been exposed to a major traumatic event over the past two years. Of this group, 14 percent showed symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. In a second study of 1,090 adolescents in the northern city of Mosul, 30 percent showed symptoms of the disorder.

Today, toy weapons are among the best-selling items in local markets, and kids play among armored vehicles on streets where pickup trucks filled with masked gunmen are a common sight. On a recent day, a group of children was playing near a camouflage-colored Iraqi Humvee parked in Baghdad's upscale Karrada neighborhood. One boy clutched a thick stick and placed it on his right shoulder, as if he were handling a rocket-propelled grenade launcher. He aimed it at cars passing by, pretending to blow them up. Two soldiers pointed at the children and laughed.

Many of the children Abdul Muhsin treats have witnessed killings. They have anxiety problems and suffer from depression. Some have recurring nightmares and wet their beds. Others have problems learning in school. Iraqi children, he said, show symptoms not unlike children in other war zones such as Lebanon, Sudan and the Palestinian territories.

On this morning, 4-year-old Muhammad Amar had a blank look on his soft, round face framed with curls of black hair. When mortar shells pummeled his street seven months ago he was too terrified to cry. "He remained still, in shock. He froze," said his father, Amar Jabur, standing in the sunlit courtyard of Ibn Rushed. Muhammad is showing signs of epilepsy and had a mild seizure the night before.

Abdul Muhsin said he believes there could be a link between the explosions and the seizure, and recommended a brain scan to rule out other causes. At the very least, he said, the violence worsened the child's condition.

After the visit, Jabur cast a glance at his silent son. "It is quite possibly because of the fear," he said. "We adults are afraid of what's happening in Iraq. How do you think it will affect the children?"

Three months ago, Abdul Muhsin treated his most horrific case. A 13-year-old girl had been kidnapped in Baghdad's Mansour neighborhood and held for a week in a house with 15 other girls. Some were raped in front of her, another was fatally shot. The girl was released after her parents paid a $6,000 ransom. But she is still imprisoned by her experience.

"She was in a terrifying condition," recalled Abdul Muhsin. "She was shouting. She abused her parents verbally and physically."

He and other child specialists say as many as 80 percent of traumatized children are never treated because of the stigma attached to such ailments.

"Our society refuses to go to psychiatrists," said Abdul Sattar Sahib, a pediatrician at Sadr General Hospital in Sadr City.

Many children live in remote or dangerous areas, sliced off from Baghdad by insurgents, bombings, and checkpoints. "Some parents just call me by telephone, and I try to advise them," Abdul Muhsin said.

At Sadr General, as many as 250 children arrive for treatment every day, nearly double from last year. "We only treat the first 20 children who arrive and then we run out of drugs," said Sahib. There is no child psychiatrist on staff.

Parents lost
At the orphanage, Dina Shadi sleeps a few feet away from Marwa Hussein. Twelve-year-old Dina had recently received two telephone calls from relatives. She learned that her 17-year-old brother had been killed and that her aunt had been kidnapped and executed.

"She totally collapsed," Tahsin recalled.

"I was not able to control myself that day. I cried," Tahsin said, her voice cracking. "There is a great amount of sadness here. No matter what we do for the children it will never replace the kindness of their mother and father."

"Now, Dina expects another call with more bad news. She has a very dark image of the future. More and more, she's afraid of the future."

UNICEF officials estimate that tens of thousands children lost one or both parents to the conflict in the past year. If trends continue, they expect the numbers to rise this year, said Claire Hajaj, a UNICEF spokesperson in Amman, Jordan.

While many children at the orphanage have lost one or both parents, others have been abandoned or sent here because their parents can no longer afford to care for them.

"The tragedy is that there's an upswing in number of children who are losing parents, but you see a decrease in the ability of the government, the community and even the family to care for separated and orphaned children because of violence, insecurity, displacement, stress and economic hardship," Hajaj said. "These kids are definitely the most vulnerable around."

Bombs have exploded near Alwiya, and the sound of gunfire is frequent. There is always the possibility of an attack. In January, mortar shells landed in a Baghdad school, killing five girls.

Tahsin still had one more task this day. She had to inform two motherless sisters that their father, a Sunni truck driver, would not be coming to see them. He had been kidnapped by Shiite gunmen at a fake checkpoint and executed.

Learning sectarian hate
At a primary school in the Zayuna neighborhood of Baghdad, three teachers sat in the head office lamenting how Iraq's sectarian strife had affected their classrooms. A quarter of their students had left for safer areas. Some parents were too scared to send their children to school, fearing attacks.

"Now, the young students when they enter the school, they ask their classmates whether they are Sunni or Shia," said Nagher Ziad Salih, 37, the school's principal.

"Yesterday, I was taking my 6-year-old grandson for a walk. He asked me 'Is this a Shia street or a Sunni street?' " said Um Amil, who asked that her full name not be used because she was afraid she could become a target. "I said: We are all Muslims. But he was still determined to know if this was street was Sunni or Shia."

"Such a child, when he grows up, what will he become?" she asked.

Salih said children quarreling on the playground now invoke the names of armed groups. "The child would say: I'll get the Mahdi Army to take revenge," she said. "The other kid would say back: My uncle is from the [Sunni] resistance and he'll take revenge against you."

The third teacher, Um Hanim, spoke up.

"Now the kid whose parent is killed by a Sunni or a Shia, what will be his future?" she said, also insisting that her full name not be used. "He will have a grudge inside him."

Child psychiatrists are noticing the sectarian divide affecting their young patients. Mohammed Quraeshi, a doctor at Ibn Rushed, recalled the day he treated two boys -- one 6, the other 9 -- who were suffering from anxiety.

"They faced harassment from children at their school. They demanded to know if they were Sunni or Shia." Quraeshi said. "This is too terrible to think that this can happen at this age."

'Desire to seek revenge'
Twenty-year-old Yasser Laith, short with a thin goatee and a cold stare, cannot sleep at night. When a rocket crashed into his family's house in the mostly Sunni neighborhood of Adhamiya in November, he crawled into the kitchen and curled up in fear.

"Whenever I hear an explosion, I start trembling," mumbled Laith, as he waited at Ibn Rushed hospital for a 10-day supply of anti-psychotic drugs.

Another day, intense clashes erupted on his street, and U.S. combat helicopters hovered over the area. Laith grabbed an AK-47 assault rifle, rushed to his roof and began firing into the sky.

"My father is ashamed of me. I wanted to show that I was a good as the others," Laith said with a half-crazed smile. "After that I felt satisfied."

Today, he takes pills to help control his violence and stop him from hitting his two younger sisters or abusing his parents. Several of his friends, he said, had joined the Sunni insurgency. He, too, was tempted, especially after learning that one of his friends had been killed by the Mahdi Army.

"I had the desire to seek revenge," Laith said, smiling again.

When Laith left the room to go to the bathroom, his 57-year-old mother, Sahira Asadallah, said she was scared that her son would commit a crime or join an insurgent group. She wondered how long Laith would have to take the drugs, then answered herself: "This will only end with the end of the war."

by F111 Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:21

Pretty simple really.
Most of the people who post here HATE America in any shape or form.
They despise the US for creating jobs on this little pissant rock,for taking their illegal aliens and demanding off the US govt that these criminals get peferential treatment,because they are Irish.Yet the Irish refuse in some cases to issue work permits for US citizens here.
The Anti war cry here is notthing really to do with a concern for Iraq or whatever,just a rallying cry for American haters,communists,and other disaffected minorities to air their grudges against the US.
It is ironic that Shinn Fein in Shannon mouth the most about the warport of Shannon,yet their self same fund raisers still con gulliable Americans of hundreds of millions every St Patricks day in the US for "the Cause".But if they had the chance they would gladly piss on the corpses of the same peoples sons and daughters if they could.
So ,it is not anti Bush ,war or anything else.It is Anti everything American.Simple.

by Caobhin Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:26

Didn't know that internet access was allowed in the locked ward.

by redjade Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:35

F111,
Here's some Americans that I suspect most 'Indymedia.ie Types' would support...

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Bush was presented with a letter Monday signed by 50 high school seniors in the Presidential Scholars program urging a halt to "violations of the human rights" of terror suspects held by the United States.
[....]
The handwritten letter said the students "believe we have a responsibility to voice our convictions."

"We do not want America to represent torture. We urge you to do all in your power to stop violations of the human rights of detainees, to cease illegal renditions, and to apply the Geneva Convention to all detainees, including those designated enemy combatants," the letter said.

The designation as a Presidential Scholar is one of the nation's highest honors for graduating high school students.

more at
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/news/189096.php

by paul o toole Tue Jun 26, 2007 14:44

It is you who is Anti-American f111, Unless you believe that being American these days is to be part of the minority who support bush. which is true , if you are part of the administration, because it is they who believe that the people dont count any more-especially if you are black and living in Florida. or New Orleans.

F111, If your so into genocide , why dont you go over there and offer your services or are you a coward like the rest of the US administration who send young American kids off to be killed to increase their investment portfolio, the same cowards who also to this day, only one of them has a son in the military. - not in Iraq...yet
Even the big 'man' himself, BushJunior, chickened out of viet-nam.
Your just like all the cheerleaders, patriotic to the core so long as you dont have to leave your mama and your tv .

81% of Americans now hold GWB responsible for the war in Iraq and want the troops out. So if you are against the war now, you are more pro-American than before, using your bizzare analogies.78% of Americans who supported the Iraq war, coulden't find Iraq on a map, before the invasion.
This number rose after the invasion-..National Geographic- no kidding. Are you one of these??f1111. most likley.
I hope you find your destiny

by paddy fair Tue Jun 26, 2007 15:33

When will you stop this anti American propaganda. Id rather George Bush,s aeroplanes landing at Shannon if it halts the spread of fundamentilist Muslims taking power in any more countrys. Look at what happens when they get in power. Women and children been stoned to death, politicans been imprisoned for 5 years for having a bottle of scotch in their own house, hands been chopped off for stealing. I could go on. So some of these Irish muslim worshippers should go to Iran or Afghanistan for a few months and see how life is so brilliant there. I dont think they would stay too long. Long live the USA. Its the country if we are honest that we all aspire to

by Coilín Tue Jun 26, 2007 16:52

These charges of "anti-Americanism" are designed to distract our attention from the arrogance and brutality of American foreign policy. For the people making this accusation, any criticism of the abuse of your status as the most powerful country in history is strictly verboten.

Meanwhile, F111 in fact expresses vehement hatred for Ireland, which he calls "this little pissant rock". And he labels Irish immigrants in the United States as "illegal aliens" and "criminals". F111, they are only illegal because US laws criminalise them. So please tell us now, what are you doing to liberalise American immigration laws?

It is not us contributors to Indymedia, but people like YOU F111 who despise American values. You despise the fundamental principle of freedom of speech, as stated for example in the First Amendment to your own constitution: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech ..." You insult us when we exercise that fundamental freedom. Is the freedom of speech reserved for Americans only? How arrogant!

As that great American singer Jimmy Buffet might have said: "You are the kind of person your parents warned you about."

Take care,
Coilín.

by Jimbob Wed Jun 27, 2007 01:41

"When will you stop this anti American propaganda. Id rather George Bush,s aeroplanes landing at Shannon if it halts the spread of fundamentilist Muslims taking power in any more countrys."

Let's check that list of countries then shall we?
Iraq... previously run by a US backed dictator, the secular Saddam Hussein, who repressed his own people and fought a long costly war against Iran (which ALSO received weapons from the US)... then fell out of favour... and after ten years of genocidal sanctions against his people, and (according to Condi Rice and Colin Powell, Iraq posed no threat to it's neighbours) there was an invasion with horrible fiery deaths for thousands and thousands of innocent Iraqis... and a quick hanging for the former US ally, Saddam. And Al Qaeda got a foothold in Iraq AFTER Bush's airplanes came through Shannon heading to Iraq.

Iran... run by secular popular president, up until Kermit Roosevelt (CIA) plan to oust him for daring to nationalise Iran's oil. He was replaced by the dictator Shah (US ally) who brought in the SAVAK (secret police set up by CIA) and a long reign of terror. After many years of being pissed off at this, the people revolted and replaced him with... the Ayatollah's. Iran is next on Bush's hit list despite the fact that they haven't actually invaded or attacked anybody in quite some time. If we trace back their history a few years, we get to the incident where the USS Vincess blew an Iranian airliner out of the sky, killing all on board (terrorism some might say) and of course the US sponsored (and Saudi financed) Iran -Iraq war...

Afghanistan. Now THERE's a real success story. Afghanistan was run by the fundamentalist taliban (a creation of the CIA and Pakistani Intelligence service to fight the USSR). They weren't so disliked in Washington, and in fact were hosted by Republican politicians when they met with Unocal ( Hamid Karzai's previous employers before he became Afghan president) officials to discuss a pipeline.
The Taliban offered to hand bin Laden over to a third country after 911 but the US rejected this in favour of bombing the crap out of the country. They added, that this would have the added effect of reducing the flow of heroin world wide ( actually untrue, because the kiljoy Taliban almost wiped out the opium production in Afghanistan before 2001 - check the UN reports) and now Afghanistan is back as the number one source of opium for heroin, and it's got plenty of radicalised wannabe martyrs running around it. I should also mention that the amount of money the US spent BOMBING Afghanistan for a single day in October 2001 is MORE than what it would have cost them to pay the farmers to NOT grow opium for the year. (Opium is not a fair trade product, the farmers get very little for it)

And the wanton carnage that heralded the start of the "Global War on Terror"(tm) I wonder why there was an upsurge in the number of people wanting to blow themselves up near western troops on Baghdad streets?

Still, if the death of Iraqi civilians makes you feel safer from the phantom menace of the muslim horde, who are we to take away your security blanket?

by Jimbob Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:15

Just spotted a typo. Should read Vincennes not Vincess.

On 3 July 1988, the USS Vincennes, under the command of Captain William C. Rogers III, shot down an Iran Air Airbus A300B2 over the Strait of Hormuz, killing all 290 aboard.

by A10 Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:24

Osama Bin Ladin never recived money from the CIA.He had no need to as his family is one of the richest in Saudai,and two he already then hated the West when he was in Afghanistan.So it is impossible that he would have had dealings with the US or CIA.
Good book on the subject is Americas Secret War.
As for the Vincenns incident.Well, they got their own back at Lockerbie didnt they??

by Coilin Wed Jun 27, 2007 13:23

A10 makes a "slight correction" that is not actually a correction of an error.

Whether Osama bin Laden had any direct association with the CIA or not, it is true that the US participated in the creation of favourable conditions for armed Islamists in Afghanistan by supporting fundamentalists in that country in the 1980s.

Among other things, the United States provided Stinger missiles to Afghan "freedom-fighters" who later founded the movement we now call Al-Qaeda.

Agence France Presse reported as follows on December 4, 2001:
"On Monday, the Pentagon admitted there was concern about Stinger missiles in Afghanistan as the Taliban militia was targeting US warplanes from their stronghold in Kandahar."

And Radio Free Europe reported as follows on Monday, January 31, 2005:
"Authorities in Kabul have announced a new effort to collect U.S.-made Stinger antiaircraft missiles left over from Afghanistan's war against Soviet occupation. The U.S. government provided the shoulder-fired heat-seeking missiles to Islamist fighters battling Soviet troops in Afghanistan during the 1980s. Now, Afghan officials say they are concerned the portable missiles could end up in the hands of terrorists or in other countries."

Some of the freedom-fighters who the CIA trained to fight in Afghanistan in the 1980s may have used these skills to attack an Israeli charter jet in Kenya in November 2002:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/12/03/missile....ense/

Blowback!

I will leave a discussion of US support for Al-Qaeda-like Islamist extremiists in Kosovo in the 1990s for later.

But clearly, in the search for rogue states training and arming terrorist groups, we need look no further than the United States.

Be careful out there.
Coilin.

by Jimbob Wed Jun 27, 2007 13:49

Osama Bin Ladin never recived money from the CIA.He had no need to as his family is one of the richest in Saudai,and two he already then hated the West when he was in Afghanistan.So it is impossible that he would have had dealings with the US or CIA.

That's horseshit. As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar - the MAK - which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war. What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.

When bin Laden later got pissed off at the west, some of the reasons attributed to the decision were 1, after the Iraq War, the US put permanent bases in Saudi Arabia, - land of Mecca. and 2. being knocked back on his offer to help take out Hussein instead of having the US army invade in 1990

"As for the Vincenns incident.Well, they got their own back at Lockerbie didnt they??"

Are you trying to JUSTIFY Lockerbie? Or are you trying to justify the Vincennes murder of 290 people? Both are terrorist acts. The difference is that for the Lockerbie massacre, someone went to prison.

by paul o toole Wed Jun 27, 2007 14:36

War machines kill people. It is mostly innocent people who are killed and not the armchair generals who send young men to their death or to kill, or spectators like half the trollers here.
This Air-Show is an obscenety, no less obscene than those who are in awe of them and even worse are the parents who bring their kids to admire the tools of death built only to maim and kill.
Go on, admire away, just remember there is nothing brave or honourable killing kids.
Why dont we go all the way, and show photos of dead civilians if you like this stuff so much. By the same logic you would admire a bomb belt from a suicide bomber or an ied or mabey next year we wlii see the tools they use to torture in rendition flights, or a video of them raping the two little girls they came to liberate in fallujah, before they incinerated the whole family to destroy the evidence ..grow up.

by confused Wed Jun 27, 2007 15:00

"As for the Vincenns incident.Well, they got their own back at Lockerbie didnt they"

wasnt it the Libyians that blew up the Pan Am flight at Lockerbie?

by A10 Wed Jun 27, 2007 23:09

Colin we all know the CIA provided weapons to the Mujahadeen.So???This was 20 odd years ago in a different world.Which everyone seems to forget.The Russians and Cubans were supplying dissident,terrorists/freedom fighters all over the world too.That is why it was called the cold war.

Jimbob despite your foul langauge,[think you can do better for a 40 year old?]

Yes known as well,but does that mean he was sitting down to tea in Langley with William Casey?
He hated the USAas much as the Russians.he was a useful asset against the Cold War enemy Russia.Soo this proves what exactly????You are simplyifing everything just to blame it all on the USA hate mongering.You would have lived thru that time ,as I did and it was a different world then.Dont deny that the Russians were as bad if not worse than we were.

by Donny Osborne Wed Jun 27, 2007 23:30

1980's Mujahdeen = Allies

2000's Mujahdeen = Terrorist

by Jimbob Wed Jun 27, 2007 23:33

A10 - Jimbob despite your foul langauge,[think you can do better for a 40 year old?]

Jimbob -
WHAT foul language are you talking about amigo? Is that your best bait? Did I direct foul language at anyone? I ain't biting on that one.

A10 - Yes known as well,but does that mean he was sitting down to tea in Langley with William Casey?

Jimbob -
Is that the benchmark, then? The CIA have not declassified all the cables relating to Bin Laden.

A10-
"He hated the USAas much as the Russians.he was a useful asset against the Cold War enemy Russia.Soo this proves what exactly????"

Jimbob - That they will work with murderers, even ones that hate them, I suppose...

A10 "You are simplyifing everything just to blame it all on the USA hate mongering."

Jimbob - You seem to be the one trying to simplify the debate into "with us or against us". A false dichotomy.
Hate? I see hate as directed really at people. "hating" imperialist foreign policies, "hating" mass killing of foreign civilians, is not "hate speech". I have great admiration for many Americans, who are examples to us all. That don't include GWB, Bush Snr, Bill Casey, or Ronald Reagan. Ditto for brave Russians, Chinese dissidents who speak out against their totalitarian regimes.

A10 -
"You would have lived thru that time ,as I did and it was a different world then."

In some ways, yes. In other ways, its just the same game re-jigged, and re-packaged.

A10 "Dont deny that the Russians were as bad if not worse than we were."

Jimbob - Who is "we"? I don't identify myself with any government. I actively disassociate myself from them and their crimes.
I have no time for the Russian government. Putin is the KGB under new guise, and he's got plenty of blood on his hands.
If there were Russian MiGs at the Galway air show, I would have mentioned Russia. Don't try to 'whatabout' your way out of the argument. If I listed every twisted government the comments would be too long to read. That doesn't reflect selective judgement, just staying on topic, much as others would like to squirm away from it.

by realist Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:19

the enemy of my enemy is my friend!

by Coilín Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:31

Agent 10, I don't know who Colin is, I don't see him contributing to this thread, but I'll reply to your comments on his behalf:
"we all know the CIA provided weapons to the Mujahadeen. So??? This was 20 odd years ago in a different world. Which everyone seems to forget."

No, your problem as an agent of the Office of Global Communications is that nobody forgets anything.

I remember reading about the attack on that jet in Kenya - which fortunately failed to do any material damage. The Danish newspaper Berlingske Tidende ran the story with a comment that the US had provided missiles to the mujahideen but was now afraid that they had fallen into the hands of terrorists. I had to laugh at the absurdity of it. You help to train Islamist militants and then they turn against your Zionist ally. Go figure!

You just don't know how or when to say sorry, do you?

You went on to train and arm the UCK/KLA in Kosovo - more Islamist "freedom-fighters" who have probably sent "foreign fighters" to murder your sons and daughters to Iraq in recent years.

And US forces supported Moqtada al-Sadr's "Black Crows" in invading a predominantly Sunni enclave in Baghdad, by deploying fighter aircraft to attack Sunni militants who resisted the Black Crows.

(This brings us back to the machinery of cowardly warfare put on display in Salthill in the name of tourism over the weekend.)

You have trained the Iraqi police and army, and some of them have been found dead among the enemy following street battles with US forces. (My condolences to the families of the dead, both Iraqi and American.) Most recently, you are offering arms to Sunni militants to fight alleged "Al-Qaeda" fighters in Anbar, and you will probably tear your hair out and call them terrorists when they turn against you.

What you don't seem to understand is the universal principle of karma: "What goes around, comes around." If you project fear and hatred into the world, it will come right back at you. If you project peace and compassion instead, that will also come right back at you.

Take care,
Coilín.

by A10 Thu Jun 28, 2007 13:35

"Horse shit" JimBob????Not a great way of making your point?
My gsh,you seem to think the CIA is like any secret service accountable to the general public?They proably do know who killed Kennedy as well,but will never release it to the world.Yes of course they work with murderers,criminals and whatnot.When it suits them.Protecting a way of life,society,whatever is not a cool clean cut superhero job.You need scumbags,ghouls ,etc.Quite frankly the CIA is trying to still recruit clean cut US college kids for a very nasty job.The KGB won hands down as they were more efeective and ruthless.See Putin.

You have a nice simple world look my friend.You hate "imperalist policies "but dont seem to understand them,or just look skin deep into them.You hate people [all western leaders I notice]and dont explain why in the time context you hate them.
You sound like the old racist arguement."I am not racist,I have loads of colord friends,but I think they should all go home".Everyone here has "american friends"that the allude to,but never mention.Well maybe it is an irish thing to be nice to your friends face and then back stab them.So just drop the pretence that you admire or have american friends.The hyprocisy makes me sick.
I AM staying OT.Actually what ancient history has to do with an airshow now long over is now beyond me.Pointing out that "we" the Western world,in which I assume you reside.Were just as bad if not totally outclassed by the KGB and the East block when it came to starting revoulitions,mayhem ets.Not worming out of anything.You seem to think the wicked Americans and whatnot were the sole force in disrupting the world back then.

Coilin
Right yet again you are quoting all known stuff ,and BTW the Jet in Kenya was hit by a Russian shoulder fired SAM.Plenty of those left around africa from the great liberators Russiaand Cuba,along with near enough AK47s to arm every man woman and child as well.

What should I say sorry for?Being American supporting America,and to whom ?You??Who are you anyway??
I dont see your point about all these groups and the revelance to these cowardly .etc etc etc point?
All nice for you to say they are cowardly,etc.Have YOU ever fought for somthing you belive in Colin?Or do you just sit and pontificate about the evil in the world from the saftey of Ireland.

Karma yeah right.Remember it swings around and can kick you personally in the ass too.
Even the Buddhists have to fight too,nor are they too impressed with Muslims either.Ask any Thai what they think of their muslim neighbours.
So good luck with the happy thoughts and trying to change the world.
Be good.

by Jimbob. Thu Jun 28, 2007 16:12

JBob and Colin
author by A10publication date Déar Meith 28, 2007 13:35Report this post to the editors

"Horse shit" JimBob????Not a great way of making your point?

JB -Why not? Are we in Sunday school here. I didn't direct it at anybody. IF your nickname was Ned Flanders I could understand the term upsetting you, but you named yourself after a weapon that spreads DU and has caused cancer, even to those who load the ammo, so I assume you're a bit more robust in that department. But nice distraction....

A-10 - My gsh,you seem to think the CIA is like any secret service accountable to the general public?They proably do know who killed Kennedy as well,but will never release it to the world.Yes of course they work with murderers,criminals and whatnot.When it suits them.

JB - You write as if I don't know this. I do. I just don't find it acceptable. If they know who killed Kennedy, they owe it to the people who pay their wages ( US taxpayers) to tell the country. America was not founded on secrecy and unaccountable murderers.

A- 10 Protecting a way of life,society,whatever is not a cool clean cut superhero job.You need scumbags,ghouls ,etc.Quite frankly the CIA is trying to still recruit clean cut US college kids for a very nasty job.The KGB won hands down as they were more efeective and ruthless.See Putin.

JB - Protecting a way of life? What life were the protecting when they overthrew Mossadegh in Iran? What way of life were they protecting when they turned a blind eye to massive crack dealing in order to fund the contra's in Nicuragua? The CIA are not boy scouts, and they were much better at what they did than the crude KGB, who were also scumbags, and who have had a name change, makeover etc. I'm well aware of Putin. If I lived in Poland or Czech Republic, I'd probably be commenting about him a lot more than Bush, but thankfully I'm not in his sphere of influence. If Putin comes here, I'm sure we'll see each other at the protest. You would be there right?

A-10 You have a nice simple world look my friend.You hate "imperalist policies "but dont seem to understand them,or just look skin deep into them.

JB - I don't buy into the excuses that try to justify them. I understand them all right.

You hate people [all western leaders I notice]

JB - That's not logical. You're deliberately trying to twist the words cos you can't argue against what I actually said. Poor you. By saying that Bush, Casey etc are not Americans I admire does not equal hating them.

A-10 - and dont explain why in the time context you hate them.

JB - Should I have expected better logic? I don't hate them, I mentioned the policies I hate, and they are the ones implementing the policies. so wrong on two counts.

A-10 -You sound like the old racist arguement."I am not racist,I have loads of colord friends,but I think they should all go home".Everyone here has "american friends"that the allude to,but never mention.Well maybe it is an irish thing to be nice to your friends face and then back stab them.So just drop the pretence that you admire or have american friends.The hyprocisy makes me sick.

JB - And I'm sure I sould like someone who kicks puppies, beats his wife, and doesn't like apple pie, doesn't have a job, smokes dope, and a load of other things that a reasonable person wouldn't infer from my writing.... but keep up the brilliant 'debating'...

A-10 - I AM staying OT.Actually what ancient history has to do with an airshow now long over is now beyond me.

JB - you brought up that point. Did you lose yourself in it?

A-10 - Pointing out that "we" the Western world,in which I assume you reside.Were just as bad if not totally outclassed by the KGB and the East block when it came to starting revoulitions,mayhem ets.

JB - I don't think so. I'm not defending the KGB, and no reasonable person would take that interpretation, but pretending that the crude, scumbag KGB were 'outclassing' the CIA is a bit rich. The CIA/OSS history is one of corruption, blackmail, slipping drugs into unwitting victims, engaging the mafia to do dirty work, rigging elections, staging coups, overthrowing governments, and wiping out lots of people. Guatemala, Italy, Honduras, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, have all seen their dirty work. MI5, Mossad, KGB/FSB do likewise, but I don't think anyone has the resources to match the CIA or the results.

A10 - Not worming out of anything.You seem to think the wicked Americans and whatnot were the sole force in disrupting the world back then.

- I 'seem' to think that do I? Second worst is not squeaky clean in my book. But, why let logic get in the way of vitriol eh? I'm sure you'll ask what the CIA has to do with Salthill, now that you've lost this point....

by Coilín Thu Jun 28, 2007 16:17

"What should I say sorry for? Being American supporting America,"

You give your country a bad name. I reckon Muhammad Ali did more for America than the whole of the Pentagon ever did. Now, that's a fine Irish-American. But see how he was persecuted for exercising his freedom of speech?

"and to whom?"

You could start by saying sorry to the families of the courageous young American men and women who have been killed or maimed on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Who are you anyway??"

The question is not, Who am I, because my name appears widely on Indymedia and many other places on the Web, but Who are you?

Are you the OGC's best shot at the Turing test? You're very convincing, but a bit lacking in compassion. This human property is manifest for example in sympathetic distress at the plight of civilians killed, injured or left homeless, jobless, cold and hungry by the bombs of the US Air Force. How do you feel about that, A10?

"Have YOU ever fought for somthing you belive in Colin?"

Only face to face and with my bare hands. I would rather die for what I believe in than kill for it.

Did you ever play underwater rugby or Ultimate frisbee? :-)

Keep well,
Coilín.

by A10 Fri Jun 29, 2007 00:05

Colin Muhammed Ali is Irish????Rightttt.As I can claim I am Swedish as well as I can document my family history 200 years back to Sweden.But I dont as I dont have the inferiority complex the Irish seem to suffer from where they have to claim every world famous figure with teneous links to the aul sod.Muhamed Ali is American,yes indeed,back in the 60s it wasnt very pleasent,and I always feel ashamed that the US did have that kind of a society.Albiet abit before my time.

Sorry to inform you ..I was one of those brave s young men and women,[all of a sudden] in 1991 in the first Gulf conflict.And yes I had alot to do with the A10 tank destroyer,And NO I dont give a lot of thought to all the propaganda of homeless,etc etc emotive crap you are going on about. As the only thing we attacked were military targets.Tanks mostly.So yes,thats me an unemotive ,.baby killer,threat to the world peace,yada yada.Heard it all before...Next
Well,with whatever cause you are with you are not going to be much help.Dont die for your country,make sure the poor SOB on the other side dies for his.[Gen Patton] Aint that bad karma,or unbalanced ying/yang?

Jbob.
You really need to read up on the founding fathers.They were the epitome of secrecy and not sure about murder,but proably.Geo Washington was a mason,as are half the signatories of the Bill of Rights.
Skull&Bones society ring any bells ? So you are wrong there.

And off you go and debate history again on the evils of the CIA,etc etc.And no the KGB were much better at the spy game.They had no hesitation in assination,drugs ,blackmail,and theiving US /UK secrets while the college boysand girls were scratching their heads wondering where the leaks were.
So the Russians werent supplying half of Africa ,South America,etc for the glorious workers revoultions???you are taking a one sided view of the last 30 years friend.
If Putin was over here I would be protesting.Question would most of the other American haters be there?
So you understand the impearilst policies.Lets hear your vesion of them? So it is illogical that I point a fact that you mention only western leaders,it is now that I am not argueing the point?BWHAHAHA.I dont think you can worm out of the fact that you painted yourself into a corner,and moreso you have been spitting fire at them all your posts and now you say you dont hate them??Gimme a break!!

Well if you do belive you fit that description of yourself...fine.Have another chip to balance the one on your other shoulder.So you are American,or Irish pretending to be American?otherwise you are in a state of denial thatyou really think the Irish would never say anything nasty about the Americans.Which is it???
Er remember the title of this thread.Salthill airshow?Debating history is kind of OT.But then it is quite normal on Indymedia to go totally OT from the thread title.
Tell you friend,there are plenty of dirtier and less financed three letter organisations out there that can and did run rings around the CIA,and still do.They are not as omnipotent as you all think they are.

Pray continue with your rant.It is most amusing.

by Jimbob. Fri Jun 29, 2007 00:51

Did the DU get to your brain?

"And off you go and debate history again on the evils of the CIA,etc etc.And no the KGB were much better at the spy game.They had no hesitation in assination,drugs ,blackmail,and theiving US /UK secrets while the college boysand girls were scratching their heads wondering where the leaks were.
So the Russians werent supplying half of Africa ,South America,etc for the glorious workers revoultions???you are taking a one sided view of the last 30 years friend."

Really? I'm one sided. let's see. You claim the CIA were clean cut college boys and girls.
You pose a question as if I didn't know the Russians were fueling proxy wars, despite comments I had posted, and you had read (cos you did reply) along the lines of ...

"The CIA/OSS history is one of corruption, ...., staging coups, overthrowing governments, and wiping out lots of people. ... MI5, Mossad, KGB/FSB do likewise"
"I have no time for the Russian government. Putin is the KGB under new guise, and he's got plenty of blood on his hands. "

In what way does that equate to " I love the Russians, and hate the Americans". can you enlighten me?

By the way, I don't claim to know everything about America, and I didn't pretend to be American, as you claim, but if I hated America so much, wouldn't I be denouncing the founding fathers as secretive masons, rather than holding them in esteem?

You have one definite plus over me in this debate. At least you get to find the other persons posts amusing : )

by A10 Fri Jun 29, 2007 01:26

DU?
Nah,didnt seem to affect many people who handled it in the unit.Not anyone I know of is ill or suffering from GWS.At least when I switch off the light I dont glow in the dark LOL.

No my point is you are being selective in this whole arguement.You are saying the US is the total evil empire,and going back thru history pointing out all the evil things done by the US does show a one sidedness while ignoring the evil of the other side.It seems to be the choice of most people to play Bash Bush and blame America.It is too much of a simplified world view INMHO.Every country is guilty in this,but to try and appropriate all the blame on one country is unfair and untrue.And I think it is especillly hyprocritical of Ireland to be jumping up and down about war mongering USA/UK etc,and then stay embarresdly silent when it is found out that the Russians have been sending war material thru Shannon and not a peep from the anti war movement about this.If the anti war movement made some noise about this they would have more creditability as to being neutral.While everyone was bitching about Salthill,Ireland was hosting the Argentinnian navy in Mayo.A country that had an appaling human rights record,and was quite openly walking around in uniform and yet no one protested about this.That is total hyprocrisy.This is what gets me about all this.Yell at the US,ignore the Russians moving stuff thru Shannon.Moan about the US navy calling in Cork,stay silent about the Argentinnian navy in Mayo.By acting like that it certainly gives the impression that everyone here is totally anti American.
So you are Irish then??And you didnt know about them being Masons?Well now you have somthing else to throw at the evil Americans. :]

by Francis Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:22

Yell at the US,ignore the Russians moving stuff thru Shannon.

You made that allegation before on indymedia, and got roundly slapped for being so wrong. I didn't find Ed's original piace when I did a quick search but, I think Tim Hourigan's answer puts it better than I can. And a quick google search for the Argentine Navy story shows it got relatively little coverage. No RTE, only a small bit in the IT, and a few regional papers. So, ask the media, not the activists why it wasn't more widely known or protested.
------------------------------------------------------
wrong again A10.
author by Tim Houriganpublication date Aoine Ean 05, 2007 15:05Report this post to the editors

But I suppose you are just being consistent by being wrong.
There were repeated calls to stop ALL military use of Shannon, and Ed Horgan's statements on this were published in the mainstream media. Other people made comments and protests that were not published or broadcast. Just because RTE doesn't cover protests of Belgian or Russian arms shipments doesn't mean that the peacemovement is selective.
So perhaps your Anti-American accusation should go to the media for thinking a story is sexier if it's more controversial. The Americans are supposed to be the good guys so a story about them is interesting. The old USSR was an evil empire, so no great shock or newsworthiness in them being warmongers... they don't see it as moral issues, just about headlines, which is why from the start, it has been the activists, not the media raising these issues and trying to get them heard.

by Coilín Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:49

A10, whoever you are, I salute your courage for fighting in the Gulf War. That doesn't mean I agree with the poliitical decisions that led to that war, or with your decision to participate, but I acknowledge that it was a courageous thing to do. But I doubt that has given you any happiness - to say the least. You will find that compassion, i.e. caring for other people, can relieve your suffering. You don't have to be a Buddhist to find out for yourself what happens when you turn your thoughts and deeds to selfless service of others.

I recommend this book on the subject of achieving happiness through compassion:
The Art of Happiness: A Handbook for Living was a groundbreaking collaboration between His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, and Howard C. Cutler, M.D., a Phoenix-based psychiatrist.
http://www.theartofhappiness.com/

.....

Getting back to some other points:
I said Muhammad Ali is a fine Irish-American and I stand by it. Ali has only got to go back four generations to get to his Irish roots, a man named John Grady, who rented a house in the town of Ennis: http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/article.aspx?arti...=5397

Ennis is a town in County Clare, only 22 kilometres (14 miles) from Shannon airport.
See map here: http://www.shannonairport.com/to-from/bycar.html

To the best of my knowledge, this means that Ali is entitled to an Irish passport. In fact, he may already have one, for all I know. Mind you, I reckon Ali would be disgusted to know that Shannon airport is being abused as a springboard to bomb his Musliim brothers and sisters in Iraq and Afghanistan.

.....

"I always feel ashamed that the US did have that kind of a society."

You mean, a society where discrimination against Black people was overt? Or a society that would invade Vietnam and then persecute a fine American who refused to participate - and indeed spoke out against the war? Or a society where Ali's Islamic values of peace and justice were held in utter contempt, in favour of obstinate American patriotism?

Agent 10, there is no point talking about all the other countries that have done bad stuff to let the US off the hook. To the best of my knowledge, there were no Soviet or Iranian jet fighters on display at Salthill last weekend.

Americans are more than welcome to come to Ireland as tourists, but you may leave your uniforms, your guns, your bombs, your military aircraft and your arrogant, patriotic attitudes at home. We love you, but we love the Iraqis and Afghanis just as much.

Keep well,
Coilín.

by Brainless Sat Jun 30, 2007 06:34

It looks like Bush and Cheney are close to complete dictatorial powers in U.S., check out the link -

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6169

by anon Wed Jul 04, 2007 03:06

The passage through Shannon airport of US troops participating in a military operation unauthorised by the United Nations was permitted "following a motion passed by Dáil Éireann" - exactly the procedure Finian McGrath thinks he has now secured as some form of improvement to the status quo ante.

Presumably the non- concession granted to Deputy McGrath on Shannon is the exactly the same non-concession granted to the Green Party, which is why Ministers Gormley and Ryan have said so little about it.

http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/118313111447184.html

by Clareboy Wed Jul 04, 2007 09:51

"That's what happens when 'good guys' and 'bad guys' fight each other."

Remind me again... the ones who bombed the Fallujah medical clinic with their F16s... were the good guys? The shock and awe airforce jocks, the marines, that set Baghdad aflame, levelled Fallujah and have thus far killed 700,000 Iraqis... are the good guys?

You watch too many movies amigo..

"And what's this 'Anti-America'?For what reasons? All because of a US presidents decisions?"

You're right, the decisions of the president are far too trivial a reason to disagree with the US governments foreign policy. Taking over a foreign country, killing thousands of their citizens.... what's that between friends. Let's crack open another few beers and watch Blackhawk Down together.

by Coilin Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:15

For analysis of the UN Security Council's authorisation of the Irish peace movement's demand that American troops be refused access to Shannon airport, or interned in the event that they show up in uniform on their way to or from the war zones of Iraq and Afghanistan, please see here:
UN mandate to turf US military out of Shannon
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/83076

Note in particular the wording of Resolution 1483:
“The Security Council … 1. Appeals to Member States and concerned organizations to assist the people of Iraq in their efforts to reform their institutions and rebuild their country, and to contribute to conditions of stability and security in Iraq ...”

NB: "contribute to conditions of stability and security in Iraq"

Conversely, Member States and organisations shall NOT contribute to any initiative that UNDERMINES stability and security in Iraq - e.g. travel to Iraq and Afghanistan of foreign fighters wearing uniforms of the United States.

Best,
Coilín.

by MichaelY - iawm Wed Jul 04, 2007 14:11

HE NEEDS OUR SUPPORT!!!!

On June 19, 26 year old SPC Eli Israel put himself at great personal risk by making the courageous decision to refuse further participation in the U.S. occupation of Iraq. Eli told his commanding officer and sergeants that he will no longer be a combatant in this illegal, unjustified war.
Eli believes that the U.S. government used the attacks of September 11, 2001 as a pretence to invade Iraq and that "we are now violating the people of Iraq in ways that we would
never accept on our own soil."
Eli is stationed at Camp Victory in Baghdad with JVB Bravo Company, 1-149 Infantry of the Kentucky Army National Guard. This soldier's decision to refuse orders puts him at great risk, especially because he is in Iraq, isolated from legal assistance and other support. The following is a message that Eli sent on JUne 20th to a friend back home:

"I have told them that I will no longer play a 'combat role' in this conflict or 'protect corporate representatives,' and they have taken this as 'violating a direct order.' I may be in jail or worse in the next 24 hours. Please rally whoever you can, call whoever you can, bring as much attention to this as you can. I have no doubt that the military will bury me and hide the whole situation if they can. I'm in big trouble. I'm in the middle of Iraq, surrounded by people who are not on my side. Please help me. Please contact whoever you can, and tell them who I am, so I don't 'disappear.'"

Eli is taking an incredible risk by refusing orders in Iraq and will most likely be court martialed. Please help him by contacting his Senator and requesting that he take any steps necessary to support and protect this soldier and ensure that the Army respects his rights and does not illegally retaliate against him.

Senator Mitch McConnell: http://mcconnell.senate.gov/contact.cfm
Washington Office: 361-A Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: (202) 224-2541
Fax: (202) 224-2499