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Human Rights in IrelandPromoting Human Rights in Ireland |
Bertiegate - the Problem is the Media!
national |
arts and media |
press release
Wednesday May 09, 2007 15:48 by Irish Political Review Group - Irish Political Review Group
As an exercise in representative government the current General Election campaign is a shambles. Instead of a debate about the future direction of government we have the second round of a controversy that should never have had a first round. If Taoiseach Bertie Ahern had any questions to answer about his personal financial arrangements fifteen years ago, the place for him to do so was and is before the Mahon Tribunal. Instead we have a distracting witchhunt against a politician with a long, well regarded record of service to the state. Led by the Irish Times, the print and broadcast media have usurped the constitutional role of the Opposition in this controversy. This subversion of democracy has met with no protest from Fine Gael and Labour. Having little by way of an alternative political programme they have been content to trail sheepishly behind the media’s coattails. Democracy received a further blow when the Supreme Court recently ruled that the Sunday Business Post should be allowed to publish stories based on documents stolen from the Mahon Tribunal. In other words the Supreme Court has ruled that the media may break the law with impunity.
by Bored SBP Reader Mon May 14, 2007 11:40
To answer your question with Vincent Browne - well, he's got a magazine to run, and it's in debt. So that explains all the posturing. He's also a man not averse to looking for dig-outs himself (in the purely legal sense, of course).
by Miriam Cotton Mon May 14, 2007 12:00
John
by Slim Jim Mon May 14, 2007 12:27
Re the BICO, the intellectual forerunners of the Irish Political Review; 'BICO regarded the union as more important than working class union, believed uncritically in the benefits of British rule in Ireland and elsewhere; justified, or denied discrimination against Catholics in Northern Ireland; and called for hard line measures against the IRA but not against Loyalist paramilitaries. Its Orangeism was evident in its retrospective support for Williamite settlement in ireland, which it regarded as unqualifiedly progressive.'
by SBP Reader Mon May 14, 2007 12:41
I don't think that Vincent Browne's other interests remotely answer the inconsistency between the attack on Bertie in the SBP and at a press conference last week, and the poodling support for him this week http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=VINCE...1.asp - Bertie hasn't remotely provided a sensible response to Browne's questions, at least not any that Browne publishes. And where is the commentary about the sinister influence of CJH's mentor and handler PJ Mara? There is an element of self-promotion that is most blatant in Jody Corcoran's "exclusives", and in general the media are stirring without attempting to resolve the truth or to report the full facts known to them. It is like watching a teenager pick acne spots while Clearasil lies unused in the cupboard.
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Mon May 14, 2007 12:43
Miriam,
by jasper Mon May 14, 2007 12:44
The saddest thing about this election is that even if current government was ousted, the scenario would be akin to Animal Farm where the animals looking in at the pigs (Napoleon et al) thought they were seeing humans.
by Miriam Cotton Mon May 14, 2007 13:32
John
by SBP Reader Mon May 14, 2007 13:56
"If you tell the truth, it always comes out the same, no matter how you tell it".
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Mon May 14, 2007 19:53
Miriam,
by Miriam Cotton - MediaBite Mon May 14, 2007 20:33 mcotton at mediabite dot org
John
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Tue May 15, 2007 09:20
Miriam,
by spock's ears Sun May 20, 2007 14:19
Their Haughey-worship isn't the worst thing about the IPR.
by yello Sun May 20, 2007 17:31
I agree with the above poster. The Irish Political Review has published dozens of offensive comments over the years,(loads of them as bad as "white nigger") all far worse than one
by Eamonn de Paor Mon May 21, 2007 20:47
The IPR is a complete irrelevance. I for one never heard of it and neither know nor care who or what it espouses, - left, right or centre. (Frankly, it irritates me that in the course of important discussion in an election campaign, that people should insult the intelligence of the participants and start running after hares.) The Irish Times, on the other hand, is far from irrelevant - it is a major player in Irish affairs; and in view of its conduct, close scrutiny and questioning are warranted. I don't care who asks the questions so long as we get to the bottom of what the I.T. is up to.
by SBP Reader Mon May 21, 2007 20:55
"The Irish Times, on the other hand, is far from irrelevant"
by spock's ears Mon May 21, 2007 21:29
I agree there are problems with the Irish Times, but I have read the IPR
by Eamonn de Paor Mon May 21, 2007 22:10
"When the IPR does it, nobody seems to notice."
by SBP Reader Mon May 21, 2007 22:30
"Curious, isn't it, that when a serious criticism surfaces of a very powerful institution, a storm of irrelevances suddenly arises"
by spock's ears Mon May 21, 2007 22:57
Last Week the IT published TWO full pages
by Eamonn de Paor Tue May 22, 2007 09:52
Curiouser and curiouser!
by Spock's ears Tue May 22, 2007 10:45
The Irish Times has criticised (rightly) Bertie, but it also gave him a chance to defend himself.
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Tue May 22, 2007 11:14
The idea that the Irish Times has been objective in its reporting of the General election is, in my view, eccentric. I could give numerous examples of its bias.
by yello Tue May 22, 2007 11:17
by spock's ears Tue May 22, 2007 12:22
Eamonn says he doesn't care where the criticisms of the IT are published -I wonder would he say that if, say "Penthouse" published a searing critique of the IT : ).
by John Boy Tue May 22, 2007 12:43
Whatever your views on who says what, it's blatantly obvious that the only credible conteder to be the next Taoiseach is Biff Cowen.
by SBP Reader Tue May 22, 2007 12:59
For sure the BIFFO will be taoiseach if FF are elected - Bertie is headed the way of Judge Naughty O'Buachalla and others who resign rather than answer the simplest of questions. I am sure the IT know with precision the nature of Bertie's offences and whether they are or are not criminal, but they are seeking control of a compromised leader. They will not get it because the questions still remain and a questionable leader is unsupportable.
by John Boy Tue May 22, 2007 14:34
There's no point in change for change's sake.
by mm Tue May 22, 2007 15:18
If FF resume power we will see the continuation of the move to the right.
by John Boy Tue May 22, 2007 15:21
There's very little discernible difference between the parties.
by mm Tue May 22, 2007 15:42
Its well known that, after a time, any corporation or company begins to take on
by John Boy Tue May 22, 2007 15:51
The logic is flawed since there are many people that would like to see the back of FF but see the alternatives as incapable.
by Great Cthulhu Tue May 22, 2007 17:35
Bertie must be in big trouble if he has only Harris and the B&ICO/Aubane gang supporting him!!
by Odds 50/1 Tue May 22, 2007 20:45
Our cyndicate has put 100 @ 50/1 Ahern. pd 100 @ 55/1 Kenny l/p 100 @ 30/1 Rabbit l/p 100 @ 5/1 Higgins S/P
by SBP Reader Tue May 22, 2007 22:58
It didn't occur to me until you posted, but Paddy Power was very accurate on the Eurovision and on previous elections - certainly far more accurate than polls, adjusted or raw. They have some lovely tables on every question I can think of, including Bertie to win, McDowell for demotion and FF/Lab for government.
by Great Cthulhu Sun May 27, 2007 17:24
....My earlier guess was proved wrong. He won a majority after all, in spite of those nasty
by billy idle Sun May 27, 2007 19:32
I think you'll find alot more West Brits and other nasties at the offices of Sir O'Reilly's rag-sheets. No wonder mad hatter harris and mental Myers are so at home their,
by Dagon Sun May 27, 2007 19:38
Dunno. The Indo ran a lot of anti FF stories even in the vlast week of the election campaign. Even in the Sindo there are real journalists like Gene Kerrigan, John Drennan and Alann Ruddock.
by billy idle Sun May 27, 2007 19:59
My theory on this is that independent newspapers were smart enough to see how stories about Berties dodgy personal finances last october actually increased FF's popularity. This time it had the added benefit of distracting the electorate from the real failures of this government in the areas of health,education,environment and transport etc.
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Mon May 28, 2007 11:07 Can I suggest that the thesis of the Irish Political Review has been proved correct? Can I also suggest that my posting of last Tuesday stands up quite well in terms of the outcome of the election? 1969 British Ambassador letter 0.12 Mb
by Stuart Mon May 28, 2007 11:40
John Martin "Can I suggest that the thesis of the Irish Political Review has been proved correct?"
by Zen-Tao Mon May 28, 2007 19:56
I don't want this to go off the point, but I must ask this:
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Tue May 29, 2007 08:45
"I don’t want to go off the point, but…"
by Proddy Gayboy Tue May 29, 2007 09:19
Yes, John Martin, you are absolutely correct to complain that anyone would "misrepresent a small circulation magazine such as the Irish Political Review". Although your fixation with a sentence in a letter from the mists of the last century is not enlightening the debate.
by Marlboro Man Tue May 29, 2007 09:48
"I take it that your own juxtaposition of "homosexual .... paedophile" is an accurate representation of this virtually unread publication, that is in any case completely inconsequential to any discussion of portraying Bertie in the media."
by Miriam Tue May 29, 2007 11:21
John
by bj Tue May 29, 2007 11:44
One of the problems with the media and the political parties in general is that they overrate the
by SBP Reader Tue May 29, 2007 12:53
It is nice to see that the Irish Times reads this column. Patsy McGarry seems a little touchy about criticism of his employer and colleagues in a rather egoistic piece today "For penance, say 78 Fianna Fáils and two PDs - Following the general election campaign, a penitent journalist goes to confession." In this attempt at satire he writes "Fianna Fail bring out the worst in me at election time ... like trying to dig up dirt on Bertie ... I wrote rash judgement, calumny and detraction".
by Watcher Tue May 29, 2007 13:16
What's wrong with calling Bertie what he is; A bought and paid for liar.
by yello Tue May 29, 2007 19:01
John said nothing about the Peter Hain comment, or the conspiracy theories about Omagh, or the article by Brendan Clifford that said the Nuremburg trials were a "travesty"(Is Clifford seriously saying all the accused Nazis should have been acquitted?).
by great cthulhu Tue May 29, 2007 19:32
What! Granny's favourite magazine praised the white-hooded thugs!
by Zen-Tao Wed May 30, 2007 00:21
John,this is what the IPR's editor David Alvey said about Bowen..." Given that she spied for a foreign power against this state, why should she be claimed as an Irish writer? Her novels were a contribution to English literature. That she is still defended by various influential Irish academics, including Dr Mansergh*, testifies to a collapse of faith in the national tradition on the part of what might be called the Irish intelligentsia. " Unpublished letter Apr. 13, 2004.
by Eamonn de Paor Wed May 30, 2007 11:10
What a display of Free State smugness!
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Wed May 30, 2007 11:33
I’m glad you seem to accept the significance of the “white nigger” letter, which goes beyond a racist view of Irish people, but indicates that the most powerful person in the Irish Times in the last forty years wished to place the newspaper under the guidance of the British State. I don’t know how some posters can consider this just a “private” letter. It is a document indicating that he approached representatives of the British State and those representatives (the British Ambassador and functionaries of the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office) wished to assure Downing Street that they would “exploit this opportunity”.
by bj Wed May 30, 2007 14:04
"The Irish Times has now the prerogative of the harlot throughout history: power without responsibility."
by Jack Lane - Aubane Historical Society Wed May 30, 2007 22:58
John Martin has done us all a great service (above) in providing a glimpse of how the Irish Times operates. Readers may be interested in the following correspondence I had with Madam on 'the white nigger letter' which shows how concerned the Irish Times is with putting the record straight when itself is the subject that needs recording.
by bj Thu May 31, 2007 00:11
When Raphael Burke was outed we heard the same claims made -
by Spock's ears Thu May 31, 2007 10:36
Every time someone raises questions about the IRP's motives, they simply repeat the story about the letter to avoid dealing with the fact they want any questions about possible FF corruption censored.
by pat c Thu May 31, 2007 10:47
I haven't read the article you speak of of but I could understand someone calling the Nuremburg Trials a travesty of justice. The British had committed War Crimes in their Terror Bombing of German Cities. The British had also slaughtered tens of millions as they ravaged colonies all over the World as had the French. The USSR under Stalin had also the blood of millions of innocents on its hands. The US was had intervened in many Latin American States resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Over 1 million people died in the US suppression of the resistance in the Phillipines.
by spock's ears Thu May 31, 2007 11:27
I'm not sure if the article is online anywhere-I have a photocopy.However the article also includes
by Eamonn de Paor Thu May 31, 2007 13:51
Yes. I too would like to see this article. If only to see whether it offers some counter to the present-day Churchills who evoke knee-jerk militarism by playing the Nazi-Hitler card whenever they want to attack, invade and occupy a country, grab some oilfields, destroy a state which does not kow-tow to them, and kill thousands while they are at it. And to the hordes of Boys Own Bigglesworths who are eager to parrot the propaganda. The Irish, having been taken in by this kind of propaganda (“Poor Little Poland – sorry, Belgium”) in 1914-18, have practically forgotten the price we paid. So the Churchills and Bigglesworths reckon we are ready to be suckered yet again. We are expected by the likes of Cathal O’Shannon (veteran of Burma (!!!), the Burma which was occupied by Imperial Britain in 1886 in order to grow opium for the Chinese market which the British had fought two wars for, the Burma where O’Shannon went with the British Army to fight the Burmese freedom fighters under Aung San (father of Aung Suu Kyi) who they later bumped off even though he had by then made terms with the western imperial side), we are expected to have guilty consciences because a handful of raggle-taggle flotsam and jetsam of the defeated Nazi regime washed up on Ireland’s shores. To soften us up for present-day imperial militarism we are supposed to shut our eyes to the post 1945 relationships that the western imperial powers made with the German Nazi system, after they had got rid of the most embarrassing of them in the Nuremberg comedy.This was the German system which Britain had sponsored until early 1939, when it turned against it for imperial reasons – sacrificing the unfortunate Poles into the bargain by offering them a bogus military alliance.
by Miriam Cotton Thu May 31, 2007 14:36
Eamonn - your excitable post has brought us all the way to...1939?
by Chekov Thu May 31, 2007 15:00
It's worth pointing out that any Indymedia regulars will have been aware for a long time of the "white nigger" letter and the shenanigans involving the Irish Times and Major McDowell. We ran it as a feature back in 2004: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/64231
by pat c Thu May 31, 2007 15:30
"So Clifford is sneering at the poor Poles who died bravely to save their city from the Third Reich, who were "treated accordingly", i.e. slaughtered."
by wageslave Thu May 31, 2007 16:00
And while talking about the polish getting a raw deal in WWII, let us not forget the polish intelligence and their huge (but often conveniently forgotten) contribution to cracking the enigma code, which some say led to victory in WWII
by SBP Reader Thu May 31, 2007 16:48
1939 and all that is fascinating. Meanwhile, back in the real world, a tribunal discusses whether the elected head of government received 80,000 or perhaps 167,000 or perhaps some other sum entirely, and whether the sums were diverted party donations, planning bribes, as-yet-untaxed gifts or as-yet-unpaid loans. One day we might discuss his daughter's one million for a book deal with publishers (Murdoch's empire) who were angling for a (successful) takeover of the Irish broadcasting monopoly, or how the same media outfit gave him publicity digouts before and after the election. Just how much is the Ahern brand worth now? 10/10 for consistent sidelining.
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Thu May 31, 2007 19:08
For people who are by no means sympathetic to The Irish Times there is a remarkable amount of defensiveness when it is attacked. I have attempted to raise some issues about the Irish Times, which along with other media outlets, has been attacking Ahern. In most, but not all cases, the response has been an attack on the Irish Political Review. BJ under the heading “Tell the Truth” seems to think I am trying to tell lies although he doesn’t say what lies I have told. Chekov thinks the IPRG is “bonkers”.
by spock's ears Thu May 31, 2007 20:06
Here’s excerpts from another sickening article by Brendan Clifford, in which his hatred of Britain and Poland warps his understanding of history. In bashing Cathal O’Shannon’s programmes on Irish Nazis (which I haven’t seen), he expresses gloating admiration for aspects of both Hitlerism and Stalinism.
by Eamonn de Paor Thu May 31, 2007 22:36
Re the above contribution:
by SBP Reader Thu May 31, 2007 22:54
John Martin: "I accept that Ahern received gift/loans of tens of thousands of euros. There was nothing illegal in what Ahern did"
by spock's ears Thu May 31, 2007 23:43
Eamonn, you haven't said anything about Mr. Clifford's disgusting contempt for the Polish and Norwegian victims of Totalitarianism.
by yello Fri Jun 01, 2007 00:03
Professor Noam Chomsky:
by Eamonn de Paor Fri Jun 01, 2007 09:47
Wow! Anyone who opposes the I.T. project is practically a paedophile! Somebody is very upset. I wonder who?
by Spock's ears Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:03
Eamonn,I take it then you have no problem with the opinions expressed by Clifford. Otherwise you would not dodge the issue by whinging about how anyone who opposes the "I.T. project is practically a paedophile".
by Eamonn de Paor Fri Jun 01, 2007 13:35
My work takes me frequently to Poland where I have many close friends. I am aware that many Poles are embarrassed at their country's inter-war treatment of Ukrainians in the territory they captured after World War 1, and at their involvement in the share-out of other parts of Eastern European non-Polish territory with Hitler, as sanctioned by Britain before the great rupture of 1939.
by yello Fri Jun 01, 2007 14:30
A journalist from IPR started this whole tread, Eamonn!
by Proddy Gayboy Fri Jun 01, 2007 15:40
"the nation the IPR wanted to place us under the control of" would actually be Tir Gealtachta and existed only in the imaginations of a few self-elected men (sic), even after independence.
by Eamonn de Paor Fri Jun 01, 2007 15:52
But I thought the ultimate judges of all politicians gave their verdict on FF just over a week ago. What a shame we are stuck with this everso inconvenient system of democracy. Or maybe the nation still needs to be transformed until it starts to think in the manner expected of it and finally delivers the correct verdict? Perhaps the I.T. is right after all?
by Eamonn de Paor Fri Jun 01, 2007 16:08
P.S.
by Spock's Ears Fri Jun 01, 2007 16:41
You respect the decision of an electorate who weren't allowed to find out the truth about Bertie because he called the election before the Tribunals could dig up any dirt on him.Is that the act of an innocent man?
by Eamonn de Paor Fri Jun 01, 2007 18:24
And, of course, I condemn - nay, denounce! - the evil Grand Master Brendan von Clifford in whatever guise he may assume!
by Jack Lane Fri Jun 01, 2007 18:52
Can I suggest to 'Spock ears' et al who disagree - to put it mildly - with articles in the IPR that they write to the magazine itself and refute the arguments made in the magazine. The IPR is accused of many things but not with suppressing letters and debate. I think that would be more productive than venting their spleen and creating shoals of red herrings in debates such as this about the Irish Times and what makes it tick. How about it?
by SEAN HORGAN Fri Jun 01, 2007 19:15
Is there a biography of this guy? He seems to have been one of the most important people in Irish society in the past 40 years but I have never read anything about him until this debate.
by SBP Reader Fri Jun 01, 2007 19:46
It is unfair to dismiss the nationalism of Hibernofascists as dheasca gealtachta, as they are representative of an international breed insecure in their own identity (be it political or sexual - as in the disturbing interest in labelling homosexuality and paedophilia above). They reject allies in their own prosperity and progress in favour of ideological alliances with their own worst enemies. They see another person's colour before anything else.
by Eamonn de Paor Fri Jun 01, 2007 21:19
Would these Hiberno fascists be the the people who voted in the Evil Ones, such as the unrepentant, unchastised Bertie? Not including me, I hasten to add; even though I was not fully aware of this crime before I stumbled into this website. But isn't it worrying that one might inadvertently fall into mortal sin and offend against the new I.T.-approved thought-police. In the bad old days before 1989 (let us never speak of them again!) mortal sin required Full Knowledge, as well as Grievous Matter and Full Consent of the Will. Maybe we were too quick in getting rid of the old parish priests, compared with the new lot. Anyway, it's too late for me to turn back now, I burned my bridges there over 40 years ago.
by spock's ears Fri Jun 01, 2007 22:19
Okay,perhaps I was being a little aggressive. Maybe I will write to the IPR concerning some of the issues I have raised about Clifford.
by Spock's Ears Fri Jun 01, 2007 22:22
By the way, did Mansergh steal Clifford's girlfriend or something? I can't see any other reason for the IPR's antipathy.
by yello Fri Jun 01, 2007 22:40
How exactly is the Irish Times "re-anglicising" us? I don't understand how criticism of Fianna Fail is laying us open to
by Jack Lane Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:22
Sean Horgan’s curiosity is understandable but I don’t think he will faind any biogrpahy or profile of the Major. He won’t find any feature in the Irish Times or any other paper though we are told what underwear is worn by many lesser mortals. And the Major is alive and well so it should be quite possible for one of our investigateive journalsist to interview him – at the very least. Sean will have to read back issues of the IPR for most of the information available. He was a Major in the Britsh Army and in M15 and was a member of the Whitehall Department that dealt with Court Martials. But the important thing about him is that he became the leading force in the Irish Times. When the IrIsh body politc went into crisis in 1969 he went to the head of his body politic for help and advice and assured them that his paper would do what it was told by them. The paper had always done this faithfully for about 100 years previously but it had gotten into the head of people like Douglas Gageby that it should join the Irish body politic. The Major was having none of that nonsense. Taking the niggers seriously! Hence the significance of the ‘white nigger’ letter. McDowell won the conflict with Gageby and this was confirmed by the current editor when she ran to the defence of McDowell and not her fellow editor when the story broke.
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:25
I am bemused at some of the criticism of the IPR. The anti-Polish accusation is bizarre given that it has carried a number of articles giving credit to the Polish resistance in deciphering Nazi codes during the Second World War. It has also published a sympathetic pamphlet on Joseph Pilsudski and his profound influence on James Connolly.
by Great Cthulhu Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:52
The Wikipedia entry on B&ICO states: "Their actions at that time (E.g.1969-1994) still cause some bitterness".
by SBP Reader Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:09
Bizarre stuff, all this history, in a thread about the corrupt activities of members of the current government.
by John Martin - Irish Poltical Review Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:44
One of the few admissions of media bias from within the media came from Chekhov Feeney in the Village 14/6/07. Here is what he says:
by Not Sure Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:15
John's arguments are interesting, but given the aggressive attacks on the the Mahon tribunal by the Phoenix (you know, the unfunny magazine that never criticises Sinn Fein), the Sunday Independent and the Village, I think the IT's position is a minority one.
by Cat's-Outta-Debag Wed Jun 27, 2007 22:52
"The Chief Executive, Major Thomas McDowell, was unhappy with the editorial line being pushed by his editor Douglas Gageby."
by David Alvey - Irish Political Review Group Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:06
Everything that needs to be said about the quality of criticism being levelled against the Irish Political Review (IPR) in this thread is said by Brendan Clifford in the latest (July) edition of the IPR (available in Books Upstairs in Dublin) in an article entitled ‘Ersatz Intelligentsia’. Responding to a list of points made in this thread he writes:
by Miriam Cotton Thu Jun 28, 2007 13:15
That is just dismal. But it does explain one thing. I'd wondered what the reason was for the IPR's singular inability to recognise some very simple points made in the course of the discussion on this thread. It turns out to be arrogance - fatal to all efforts at intellectual exchange as is clear from the IPR's almost psychotic adherence to it's nutty thesis about Bertie Ahern's backhanders. We should have spotted it earlier.
by An Observer Thu Jun 28, 2007 15:45
Let's see-the anonymous blogger found a pamphlet written by Brendan Clifford in which he sneers at Douglas Gageby for his nationalist sympathies, attacks Seamus Heaney in sectarian terms,blames Northern Catholics for their own plight, and denounces Michael Longeley
by yello Thu Jun 28, 2007 18:37
So you and your buddies can dish out criticism by the bucketload (in magazines,books and websites)
by ribbid Thu Jun 28, 2007 19:03
30 years ago toilet walls especially those in England were scrawled with a very different kind of graffitti.
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Thu Jun 28, 2007 19:31
I thought Dave Alvey’s comments quoting Brendan Clifford were fair enough. In this thread there have been some quite infantile comments re: the latter. (Mansergh stole his girlfriend etc. etc). And all have them been from anonymous sources.
by yello Thu Jun 28, 2007 23:08
The accusations against the Irish Political review group are:
by yello Thu Jun 28, 2007 23:32
If you can bear his smugness, here's a link to John Lloyd discussing his time in B&ICO:
by John Martin - Irish Politcal Review Fri Jun 29, 2007 08:07
Poor “Yello”! Poor “Spocks Ears”! Poor “Cats outta-de-bag”! They have to hide behind anonymity because the big bad B&ICO will get them. Maybe it will burn down their universities as well, despite those universities being warned in advance by “Cats outta-de-bag”.
by yello Fri Jun 29, 2007 16:40
Poor Alvey! Poor Clifford! Poor John! People dare to criticise them, with detailed quotations from both their past and present hate-sheets!
by Frank Zappa Fri Jun 29, 2007 17:32
I know this is a thread about Bertie's persecution by the the IT, but can John or Jack give us some information
by Frank Zappa Fri Jun 29, 2007 17:37
"In conclusion, the IPR Group is putting forward a different analysis on Bertiegate than is to be found elsewhere. The debate would go better if the focus was on the topic and not on the origins and history of the IPR group. The choice in this controversy is between government by politics as represented by Fianna Fail and government by media as represented by the Irish Times. We support the primacy of politics".
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Fri Jun 29, 2007 19:32 Brendan Clifford, Jack Lane and myself are very far from being elusive. Unfortunately you missed the launch of my recent book. But I attach a picture of the front cover of the book. Front cover of Book 1.76 Mb
by Peter O'Riordan Fri Jun 29, 2007 21:40
"The author has an honours degree in Economics and Politics and is a fellow of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland. He has worked as a Financial Controller, Director and General Manager and is currently a part owner of an Irish Manufacturing Company."
by Jack Lane Sat Jun 30, 2007 13:51
'Yello' lists his allegations against the IPR and says:
by Who Sat Jun 30, 2007 17:00
Who is she anyway?
by yello Sat Jun 30, 2007 17:46
Dear Mr. Lane:
by Jack Lane Sat Jun 30, 2007 21:50
Dear 'Yello',
by Spinning Quickly Mon Jul 16, 2007 19:53
John Martin of IPR wrote:
by A Cynic Wed Aug 15, 2007 09:53
Eoghan Harris was made a senator for writing the same sort of stuff John Martin wrote.
by A Cynic Fri Sep 21, 2007 21:17
“Nationalism is the curse of the labour movement in Southern Ireland…It has been assumed that a national struggle for self-determination is automatically progressive and deserves the support of the working class,and in fact should be carried out by the working class if the national bourgeoisie are not up to the task.
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Fri Oct 12, 2007 09:57
Where have all the "yellos" gone?
by Peter O'Riordan Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:50
When is Jack Lane going to apologise for likening our greatest Taoiseach, a champion of Irish democracy, to Uganda's bloody dictator? I don't think Brian Lenihan would like that at all.....
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Fri Oct 12, 2007 17:38
Who should Jack Lane apologise to and why?
by Peter O'Riordan Sat Oct 13, 2007 09:36
John dodged the question immediately. He throws a tantrum when Major McDowell makes racist remarks about the Irish in
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:05
The accusation that Jack Lane made a racist remark in a publication is a very serious charge. “Yello” was not able to substantiate it. Now we have a repetition of the allegation.
by nonFF Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:05
Three liberal items in Dev's constitution: 1. provision for referendum to change it 2. Judicial review of imprisonment 3. Naming of religious minorities incl Jews, but not Muslims due to insufficient numbers then.
by nonFF Sat Oct 13, 2007 13:04
Two other essential features of Bunreacht were 4. Separation of powers of legislature and judiciary 5. universal franchise
by Peter O'Riordan Sat Oct 13, 2007 17:11
Jack Lane was a member of the Stalinist B&ICO and an apologist for British Imperialism. I consider any form of Imperialism to be innately
by Legal Eagle - The Order of Druids in Ireland Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:34
Ireland 4%
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Mon Oct 15, 2007 09:36
It is arguable that racism is inherent in all imperialisms, but Athol books has made a convincing case that it is inherent in British Imperialism (see Hitler’s English Inpirers by Manuel Sarkisyanz).
by Turps Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:51
Interesting candid explanation for B&ICO turnarounds, JM. A few questions, and this is not a comprehensive response to the above controversy:-
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:08
Some of the questions relate to before I became a member (1983). In general, I am reluctant to go into too much detail because you could spend your life trying to defend this or that position 30 years ago or more. In the meantime the world moves on and there are more pressing matters in the here and now to deal with. Below is a brief response to your questions in the same order you posed them:
by Turps Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:52
Well you've answered, though I'm not satisfied altogether. Glad to learn you agreed with Solzhenitsyn's revelations about the Gulag when his books came out. Don't know anything about the economic theory of the 'socialist commodity' so can't comment there. I doubt that state marxist economics will appeal to many people nowadays since it failed in the USSR and Mao's China, and people in N. Korea would prefer bread to A-bombs any day.
by Bronterre O'Brien Mon Oct 15, 2007 16:25
'Two nations' theory is an age-old imperialist ploy. And its role in Irish politics should be viewed in this context.
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Mon Oct 15, 2007 18:34
The two nations theory as developed by the B&ICO does not say that the North is a tribal conflict or that if the imperialists leave there will be bloodshed
by Bronterre O'Brien Tue Oct 16, 2007 03:12
Aubane/BICO's political stance is confused and contradictory.
by Vicky Tue Oct 16, 2007 07:34
The 'triumph of the GFA' whether imperialist or otherwise was endorsed by huge majorities in two referenda 72 per cent in NI and 92 per cent down here. So different from the treaty vote in the first Dail 57-64. So in the two referends the people on this island exercised self-determination. If we want a unified state (St. Augustine: make us united but not yet) we'll have to work steadily for mutual understanding, and let time and god do the rest.
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Tue Oct 16, 2007 09:25
It’s not easy to summarise the two nations theory as developed by the B&ICO in a couple of sentences. The different systems of land tenure enabled tenant farmers in the North to accumulate capital and facilitated the development of the linen industry. This was impossible for the rack rented peasantry in the South. This was not the only determinant of a separate nationality but was an important one.
by Turps Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:55
The unionist population has paradoxically behaved like a nation separate from the G Britain they passionately cling to in UK 'unity' - but are unionists provincial rather than national? If they wish to cease being a 'province' (they often call Ulster a province, to the wry bemusement of Cavanites, Donegallites and Monaghanites) would they have the same moral claim as Scotland and Wales to separate nationhood?
by Bronterre O'Brien Tue Oct 16, 2007 16:15
As I outlined above Fianna Fail shows its loyalty to the Anglo-American empire by allowing Shannon to be used for torture flights and troop transfers, by Irish membership in Echelon, the 'Anglo-Saxon' spy agency, and by subjugating the Irish people to Anglo-American economics. Fianna Fail have used state power to implement Anglo-American neoliberal economic policy resulting, for instance, in those unable to afford medical care dying because they can't access procedures readily available to those with money.
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Tue Oct 16, 2007 16:59
Turps, I suppose the ultimate test of a nation is its ability to mobilise itself in arms. The unionists in the north and the nationalists in the South passed this test.
by Great Cthulhu Tue Oct 16, 2007 19:42
"The ultimate test of a nation is its ability to mobilise itself in arms.".
by Turps Tue Oct 16, 2007 23:45
So Scotland and Wales will have to mobilise themselves militarily to prove the ultimate test of nationhood? Can't they simply have self-determining referends? By your nationhood standard Stalin was probably logical when asking How many divisions has the Pope?
by John Martin - Irish Political Review Wed Oct 17, 2007 17:13
It would be great if Scotland did not have to mobilise in arms against England in order to be independent. If only it could all be decided sensibly with a referendum!
by Turps Thu Oct 18, 2007 00:51
If strong moral power can exist, indeed persist as in China and pre-Gorbachev Russia, does this in some way undermine marxist theory about ruling ideas in society filtering down from the superstructure. "The ruling ideas of any society are the ideas of its ruling class."
by Rita Cahill - Socialist workers party Sat Dec 29, 2012 04:38
Hi I have just posted up on my wall on face book where Alan shatter and Oireactas in the upper house are signing a bill to get FOI on your health details, we have to stop it, if you can get this message to Richard Boyd Barrett, it has been handed in to Oireactas on 29th dec 2012 Friday
by Joe McIvor Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:00 joemcivor at gmail dot com
As a sitting TD , the chair of the IAWM, a leading member of PB4P etc, Richard Boyd Barrett is a busy man and very hard to reach Rita.. I have tried to contact him on other issues - such as the IAWM's support for the CIA-backed Syrian and Libyan " rebels "- on several occasions ,but have never received a reply from him.. I note your party affiliation. Richard is also a member of the SWP so you might find it easier to contact him yourself on this issue ,which seems to be a very important one.. I haven't been able to find anything about it anywhere else on the net. More details would be very welcome. |
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But, suggesting that Mr. Ahern has a long history of service and a good record, is as bad a thing to do as the authors of this article accuse the Mainstream Media of. What history of service?
Do the authors suggest that we have a health service that's up to par?
That education is where we want it?
That we have an acceptable infrastructure and transport mechanism?
What body of government is acceptable?
Bertie has a record alright and it should be a criminal record.
As for the media pouncing on him. This is distracting from the issues. However, firstly, Mr. Ahern should have no querstions to answer. Secondly Mr. Ahern should have answered all questions publically when this was initially an issue, months ago. The fact that the media pounced on Mr. Ahern is down to the fact that they are following their own agenda and because Mr. Ahern ought to be publically investigated and eviscerated (metaphorically speaking).
As for going before the Mahon Tribunal and that this is where he ought to be. What a load of utter shite. Firstly he should be in front of a judge in a criminal court. When they've finished with him he should be handed over to the Hague for trial in regard to his complicity in War Crimes.
A long record indeed!!
The Sindo has shown that Bertiegate is the work of the Provo's through Frank Connolly and the MI5 through the Irish hating Mail.
To say anything else is just damn unpatriotic.
This article is fundamentally mistaken. The thing is the Mahon tribunal has a very narrow remit - it can only investigate the various payments and planning decisions which it was established to look into. The thing is that Bertie Ahern's answers to some of these questions, while exonerating him from the accusations that he took money from Owen O'Callaghan have raised other questions. The tribunal is not allowed to investigate these other questions. The media should have every right to point out the fact that his explanations are not at all credible.
Claiming that these questions should be investigated within the tribunal gets it wrong - the tribunal doesn't have the authority to look into these issues since they are beyond its scope.
The Irish Political Review Group are one of the many faces of the Aubane Historical Society, formerly the British and Irish Communist Organisation. Theres a thread about their history, under the title 'From Peking to Aubane' elsewhere on Indymedia. Defending Bertie, and CJH as well, by the way, is some going for an organisation that used to be Maoist supporters of the UVF. But hey, its a wonderful world out there folks.
An excellent article and spot-on. Its not just the Irish Times continual smear campaign against the Taoiseach, its their invention of 'bad news' and their suppression of 'good news' .
For example. To read the Irish Times during this campaign, you'd think we were in recession. The most recent figures for the Irish economy show it growing by 7.4 per cent (GNP) or 6 per cent (GDP). The current EU average is 2.5 per cent. Our economy is growing at 3 times the rate of the UK, Germany, Finland, France Italy, Denmark etc. There isn't the slightest hint of even a slowdown. Merely a few economists predicting that, not this year, but next year it might slow to 4.5 per cent or so, i.e. about 2 times the rate in other EU countries. Yet this is being presented by the Irish Times on a daily
basis as economic Armageddon.
Another example. On Monday week last the Central Statistics Office published its latest figures for life expectancy in Ireland in their latest edition of Monitoring Ireland's Progress. Historically, for over a century, Ireland has had the lowest life expectancy in western Europe. But, the CSO figures last week showed life expectancy in Ireland jumping to 6th highest for males and 9th highest for females out of 27 EU countries, overtaking the U.K., Denmark, Germany, Finland and others. Given that, for voters on the ground, health is the most important issue in this election, you might think the Irish Times would have reported this historic development. But, not a word. Not even in the two editions of their Tuesday health supplement that have been published since the CSO released the figures.
Although I shall certainly be voting FF/PD, I'm not going to lose any sleep over an FG-led government being in power for a few years, should that happen. Its interesting that, although FF have gone down in the polls since the Irish Times started its smear campaign, none of their support is going to left-wing parties, which is not I'm sure what Frank Connolly and the Irish Times editor would have hoped for. The total vote for the three 'right-wing' parties (FF, FG and PD) remains rock solid at about 65% to 68%. The left-wing parties as a bloc have made no gain at all, stuck at around 25% to 28%, and merely taking votes from each other depending on which poll you read. Frank Connolly and the Irish Times are going to be gutted if, after the votes are counted, the sole result of their smear campaign against the current Taoiseach is Enda Kenny as Taoiseach. Although I will be voting FF/PD, I can live with Enda as Taoiseach for a few years (he has good views on abortion, crime etc), but I doubt if Frank Connolly and the Irish Times editor can.
Despite making the argument that the Irish Times only deals in statistics and percentages and not in reality, John has himself climbed into the very same holed boat and has sunk himself too - by only dealing in statistics and percenages himself.
The real measure of a succesful rule is in happiness and contentment.
Are the citizens of Ireland happy and content John, has Mr. Ahern ushered in a state of Nirvana?
I don't think so.
May I direct you to the most recent Eurobarometer survey on the subject.
Eurobarometer reporton Mental Well-being ( reference: special eurobarometer 248/wave 64.4 published: May 2006)
available on web site: http://ec.europa.eu
the survey gives respondents answers to the following question:
"how much of the time during the past 4 weeks have you felt happy?"
in response, percentage answering "RARELY" or "NEVER"
[ 1] Ireland 4%
[ 2] U. Kingdom 4%
[ 3] Denmark 5%
[ 4] France 5%
[ 5] Neth'lands 5%
[ 6] Malta 5%
[ 7] Finland 6%
[ 8] Belgium 7%
[ 9] Luxembourg 7%
[10] Spain 7%
[11] Sweden 7%
[12] Austria 8%
[13] Slovenia 8%
[14] Czech Rep. 9%
[15] Slovakia 9%
[16] Cyprus 10%
[17] Portugal 11%
[18] Germany 12%
[19] Greece 12%
[20] Italy 16%
[21] Lithuania 16%
[22] Poland 16%
[23] Estonia 17%
[24] Hungary 19%
[25] Latvia 22%
It is not enough to look at this issue from a journalistic perspective. I think the Irish Times are following an agenda in their holier than thou war on corruption, and in particular in their attacks on Ahern. Geraldine Kennedy set out to hijack the election campaign and take out Ahern. The question that should be asked is why.
A media dominated society might have appeal for journalists or critics but it offers little scope for political development. The actual effect of media power in Ireland today, and the Irish Times leads the way for that media, is to demoralise society by denigrating traditional politics and culture. In this way the society is being opened up for globalisation
"I think the Irish Times are following an agenda in their holier than thou war on corruption, and in particular in their attacks on Ahern. Geraldine Kennedy set out to hijack the election campaign and take out Ahern. The question that should be asked is why."
I think they are too, but in this case their agenda is exposing something that is both true and of public interest. However, that's besides the point and I'm not particularly interested in Bertie's finances - I have very low expectations of politicians and assume they are generally compromised by power and/or wealth. My comment above merely pointed out a fundamental flaw in the article. I have no idea what Geraldine Kennedy's motivation is for choosing to focus so much on this issue, or what the motivation is of other journalists, but I'd assume that for some at least it is a desire to expose corruption. I'm sure there are other motivations at play, but there's no point in speculating further since I really don't know.
"A media dominated society might have appeal for journalists or critics but it offers little scope for political development. "
In a complex and interconnected world such as this, media is always going to be pervasive, that's just reality. Without media we'd be confined to finding out about the world from those whom we meet in person - and we'd probably all still be in awe of our divinely appointed monarchs. The problem isn't that our society is dominated by media, it's that our media is dominated by a handful of super-wealthy individulas who use that dominance to shape society to their needs.
"The actual effect of media power in Ireland today, and the Irish Times leads the way for that media, is to demoralise society by denigrating traditional politics and culture."
We should defend our tradition of corruption so?
"In this way the society is being opened up for globalisation"
Gombeens against Globalisation!
The notion that Fianna Fail are acting as a bulwark against capitalist globalisation is so absurd that words fail me. Have you been living in a poítín-induced reminiscence of Dev's Ireland for the last 20 years?
Ireland 4% - rarely or never happy.
Throw in the Irish psyche and this figure becomes, well.... who knows?
We have a habit of ignoring the reality of our lives, not always a bad thing, but sometimes a terrible thing.
Beneath our carpets we hide depression, broken marriages and child abuse, to name but a few.
Add to that the fact that most of us lie in response to surveys (a recent survey showed this).
It will take more than a simple question to gauge our level of contentment.
But nice try.
Eurobarometer?
Don't make me laugh. If Irish people are happy, why is suicide in Ireland reaching epidemic levels and always on the increase.
Why do the Samaritans take more and more calls every year?
This Eurobarometer survery: http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_248...n.pdf
In the Eurobarometer survey, a group of Irish people were asked "QA5 These questions are about how you feel and how things have been with you during the past 4 weeks. For each question, please give the one answer that comes closest to the way you have been feeling. How much of the time during the past 4 weeks have you felt happy?
82% of those asked answered that they felt happy all the time or most of the time. This tells us that 18% make up those who did not feel happy most of the time, some of the time and those who did not know how they felt over the four week period. This means that almost one in five seldom if ever feels happy.
On top of this only 65% answered that they'd felt full of life over the four week period, for all of the time or most of the time. This means that 35% answered that they never or seldom (or even that they didn't know if they) felt full of life over the four week period. I'd suggest that this question was answered more honestly than the first as it isn't as obviously about mental health as the first question, and thus there is not as much of a perception of branding or stigmatism.
But back to this figure of 35%. 35% of people who seldom feel full of life is a scary picture. It paints a picture of a depressed society.
I'm sure John will be back to re-explain what I've just said. Afterall, we cannot have it said that we the Irish are depressed, it would lower productivity.
14% of those questioned answered that they'd sought help from a professional in the last year in respect of a psychological or emotional health problem. Of course this data is fuzzy to a degree. There's a stigma attached to asking for help with regard to emotional issues. There's also a financial consideration. This opinion is borne out by the data in the study. Ireland had the highest ammount of people who sought help for a psychological problem by turning to a general practitioner (91%) the highest in Europe. This reflects both the poorness of Mental Health facilities and lack of practitioners in Ireland, as well as the financial aspect and the stigmatism associated with mental health.
Of those questioned throughout Europe, only 2% of those who would look for support, saw help lines as a support mechanism that they would turn to. This finding shows that the work done by the Samaritans and others is only the tip of the iceberg and this is no slur on the incerdible work that the Samaritans do.
So once more I ask the question, Is Ireland happy?
Comparing happiness levels between countries etc. might look nice in some politician's speech, but has very little meaning with regard to defining a population as happy. The fact that mental health and depression are very much a taboo subjects in Ireland, would suggest that the accuracy of any such poll be treated with skepticism and that only very general data could be garnered from it.
I'd suggest a much more general approach to collecting data on happiness. Try walking down a busy street, counting the people you see and comparing this figure with the number of people smiling or exhibiting other signs of happiness.
Mr. Ahern cannot in all fairness be said to have increased the level of happiness in Ireland. The ever increasing incidents of suicide, coupled with inadequate information, training and facilities in this and similar areas, belies any notion of Mr. Ahern's abilities and deeds in this respect, indeed the picture developing is an emergency situation and way beyond the cares and abilities of Mr. Ahern and his contemporaries.
So you think 82% happy all or most of the time in Ireland is bad.
Actually, if anyone cares to check on the table to which Sean has kindly provided a link, they'll find that Ireland's score of 82% for that question
was the highest in the EU. Most of the other countries were around 70% and some were as low as 50% to 60%. Go check it yourself.
"equal to the weekly wage of a Premiership football player. The matters at issue occurred thirteen years ago and the strong likelihood is that no impropriety took place"
I do admire the sweet innocence and the unwavering faith in Politicians. By the way, the average Premiership football player earns more in a week than a lot of Irish people do in a year, so it's not that people couldn't be influenced by it.
And as for advocating political parties being tied in with newspapers... didn't they do that in the USSR?
Our media is already too controlled, we don't need more vested interests.
your article is unmitigated rubbish attempting to do damage limitation, because the thing that enables most of these shitebags from escaping proper scrutiny is the shiny shallow nice honest image they like to portray, which the mainstream media is usually too timid to pierce, preferring to refer to 'errors of judgement' rather than 'screwed the country and laughed at us'.
"none of their support is going to left-wing parties, which is not I'm sure what Frank Connolly and the Irish Times editor would have hoped for."
Son, I'm really worried about you. As you well know, Geraldine Kennedy is a right-winger. In fact, she was a leading member of the PDs for several years and represented them in the Dail. I know you like glorifying yourself by pretending that there is a grand left-wing conspiracy against which only brave mavericks like yourself are willing to struggle, but this effort is particularly ludicrous and makes you look completely unhinged.
Where the Irish Times is concerned it's reasonable to speculate that this attack on Ahern is an IBEC/PD backed attempt to unseat him because of attempts to temper their approach to the economy. The PDs and IBEC are on a roll with destroying the concept of the welfare state in Ireland. They are dismantling whatever fragile infrastructure we have as a matter of driven ideology. The more division and inequality they create, the more they feel they have succeeded. This is making them increasingly unpopular as their 2% standing in the polls now indicate - they are in fact electorally insignificant if that poll is correct. Yet look at the power they wield. The shit is about to hit the fan economically because of the PDs and the more right-wing elements of FF. While they exhort us not to 'throw it all away', the fact is they have squandered every advantage we might have had as a country. It's not unlikely that in devising their pre-election strategy Ahern and FF were feeling that they ought to pull back a little from the exlusively pro-corporate /IBEC agenda. So Ahern had to be taught a lesson - he was losing the faith. There are a lot of nervous FF TDs out there who feel very strongly that there ought to be more focus on ordinary people. FF candidates and party activists are meeting with a lot of anger on the doorsteps. Geraldine Kennedy is on record as saying that the role of the IT is 'to lead and shape public opinion'. It's unlikely she is particularly interested in exposing corruption. If that were the case, the pages of her newspaper would daily be filled with stories of the corruption which is still rampant in Irish public and corporate life. Lazy, Dublin-based journalists would scarcely have to get off their arses to find it if they were interested. But who needs to do any actual work anyway when you can simply regurgitate what it says on that nice PD/FF press release?
Having said all that, Ahern's own behaviour deserves full media analysis. He left himself wide open to it. As Joe Higgins has pointed out, the money he was given was the equivalent of three times the average wage at the time. The idea that the sums are too small or that the passage of time somehow lessen the significance of what he did is insulting to ordinary people. The MoS have accused him of lying. Can he defend himself against that charge? Politically, however, he can't resign even if he wanted to because FF would be destroyed at the election if he did. Even those myopic and unthinking people who continually vote for FF would register something was wrong if he did that. It would almost certainly propel the undecided voters into the arms of the opposition parties too. The Irish Political Review article is a preposterous attempt to invert the logic and morality of the situation. To suggest that open scrutiny of what Ahern has done is the crime is risible nonsense. Attack as a form of defence is a well worn Fianna Fail strategy. At least some elements of the media are showing some guts over this issue, for a change.
The idea that Geraldine Kennedy and the Irish Times are trying to whip up support for the PDs is absurd. The editor controls who writes in the newspaper. The vast majority of columnists in the Irish Times are left-wingers: Fintan O'Toole, Vincent Browne, Mary Raftery and until recently Maev-Ann Wren (although she seems to have disappeared in this election, hope she's not ill). All these columnists and others spew out venom against the PDs in every column they write. I don't know of any columnist in the Irish Times who supports the PDs. For this election, Fintan O'Toole seems to have been promoted by Geraldine Kennedy to numero uno commentator. He has a column on the election almost every day, including today. His hatred of the PDs is legendary and every column he writes is full of the usual left-wing nonsense. So, if Kennedy is trying to whip up support for the PDs, she has a strange way of going about it. If that's her objective, why promote Fintan O'Toole, an avowed opponent of the PDs and long-time socialist, to such a position of prominence in the paper's election coverage. So what if she supported the PDs 20 years ago? People change their views. Look at Eoghan Harris.
Sure, the IT allows an appearance of 'balance'.
Columnists are not the same as journalists. But even there, those who challenge the status quo with real persistence can easily be got rid of or marginalised, as Eddie Holt has found out. Columnists are carefully contextualised as offering personal opinion - every reader knows that they can take it or leave it. The reporting however is a different matter. The rock-solid editorial and staffer journalism is unrelentingly pro-business and pro the PD agenda. The front page headlines are almost exclusively sympathetic to the corporate perspective. Let's not pretend either that Kennedy's background is irrelevant.
"The vast majority of columnists in the Irish Times are left-wingers..."
Charles Krauthammer, Stephen Collins, Martin Manseragh, Garret Fitzgerald, Breda O'Brien....
"I don't know of any columnist in the Irish Times who supports the PDs"
Stephen Collins, the main political correspondant, wrote a book about the PDs, a book that was so utterly sycophantic that the vast majority of copies sold were bought up by the PDs and distributed free to the electorate of Dublin South East as part of their electoral propaganda.
Geraldine Kennedy, the editor, was a PD TD.
John, your counter-factual rants are just total rubbish as usual. You are nothing more than a dishonest propagandist and you know it.
Stephen Collins doesn't write an opinion column. If his views are as you say, that's probably why he's not allowed to.
Breda O'Brien is a left-winger on the economy and most social issues, other than ones that relate directly to Catholic Doctrine.
Garret Fitgerald is a supporter of the FG/Lab Coalition that is running against the current FF/PD Coalition and would describe himself as
center-left. He wrote a column a week or so ago strongly attacking the PDs for building private hospitals. If you're using him as an example of
how Geraldine Kennedy is rallying the Irish Times behind the PD election campaign, don't you think that's rather strange behaviour on
his part.
Krauthammer's column is merely a worldwide-syndicated column. He's never written a word on Irish politics.
Geraldine Kennedy was in the PDs twenty years ago. Your own boss, Vincent Browne, used to be in Fine Gael (long ago). It would be as accurate
to describe Village magazine as a FG magazine because its editor used to be in FG as it is to describe the Irish Times as a PD paper because its
editor used to be in the PDs.
"Stephen Collins doesn't write an opinion column."
He does on Saturdays. Its on the page opposite the obituaries.
"Krauthammer's column is merely a worldwide-syndicated column. He's never written a word on Irish politics."
Its not. He specifically tailors this version of his column to Ireland and even comments on letters published on the IT letters page.
"If you're using him as an example of how Geraldine Kennedy is rallying the Irish Times behind the PD election campaign, don't you think that's rather strange behaviour on his part."
I didn't say that and I don't think that Geraldine Kennedy is rallying the IT behind the PD election campaign. I was merely pointing out the fact that you were talking your normal rubbish when you claimed that the "vast majority" of IT columnists were left wingers.
Of course if you are rabidly right wing, everybody sane looks like a pinko. So, there's really no point in continuing an argument with somebody who thinks that Breda O'Brien is a leftie. Dev was a commie too I suppose.
This is an excerpt from Stephen Collins column last week:
As you can see, its not an opinion column in the sense that your boss,
Vincent Browne, has an opinion column every Wednesday. Its merely
political reporting, with a bit of inside gossip thrown in. No one can
tell from this or Collins' other columns what his political views are.
Contrast with Browne's or Fintan O'Toole's or Mary Raftery's columns
where they rant gainst the present government every week.
*********************************************************************************
FF floundering but can Kenny ride a rising tide?
Fianna Fáil has had a disastrous start to its campaign. But its rivals fear
being trampled by 'the elephant in the corner' of Bertie Ahern's finances,
writes Stephen Collins
The astonishing first week of the election campaign to the 30th Dáil is
ending as it began, with Fianna Fáil apparently drifting rudderless, the
crew at each other's throats and nobody in clear command. It is
reminiscent of Albert Reynolds' disastrous campaign in 1992, only this
time it promises to be far worse, unless somebody can get a grip on the
strategy.
What makes it all completely mystifying is that Bertie Ahern created the
shambles by choosing the worst possible moment to dissolve the Dáil.
If he had gone a couple of weeks earlier, as many of his own TDs had
been expecting, it might all have been so different.
Instead the Taoiseach made the baffling decision to go the Áras to seek
the President's permission for a dissolution early last Sunday. The
midnight phone-around to alert the media created a peculiar sense of
unease from the beginning, but it was the press conference to launch
the campaign later in the morning that was truly baffling.
Everybody expected the campaign launch at Treasury Buildings to be a
typically upbeat, confident display of Fianna Fáil power. The old crew,
who had come within an ace of pulling off an overall majority in 2002,
were on hand. The legendary PJ Mara was back as director of elections
and Séamus Brennan, who had masterminded one of the biggest
Fianna Fáil landslides in history in 1977, was there in a central role.
An assorted crew of press officers, lobbyists and Government advisers,
on unpaid leave for the campaign, were also there on that bright, sunny
Sunday and seemed not to have a care in the world. They were going to
fight the election on the Government's economic record and felt that if
they kept the debate focused there they couldn't be beaten.
and so on
*********************************************************************************
Pleae gave an example of where Krauthammer expresses an opinion
on internal political matters in Ireland. I just read 10 of his columns on
the Irish Times archive and Ireland isn't mentioned in any of them.
Its a matter of opinion and in my opinion Collins writes an opinion column on Saturdays, the inclusion of gossip supports my opinion that his column is opinion.
As for the cabbage basher, I dont have a paid sub to the Irish Times, so you''ll have to take my word on it. I'm not a NeoCon, so I dont lie.
Incredible headline in Sir Tony's Herald today.
'Threat to shoot Bertie'
You couldn't make it up. Story goest that a lone stalker intends to do it but doesn't have a gun.
I once said I wouldn't mind giving Liz O'Donnell one.
Hope tomorrows Herald isn't indymedia reader intends to rape PD beauty.
I see you got published on the Village site and in the magazine but a commentator is equally confused about. I coulnd;t say it better myself. You regret that "some newspapers, especially the Irish Times, have no association with political parties".
You didn't demonstrate any substantial benefits that the public might derive from such an arrangement, while the downside is far clearer...
http://www.village.ie/Forum/Election_2007_Blog/Bertiega...Media!/
Still no guesses fromm anybody on why former Maoists are now lending intellectual defence to Fianna Fail over corruption. The Irish Political Review has been arguing for a year that Charlie Haughey was hard done by and that it is all an Irish Times plot to take us back into the empire. This from people who practically invented the two-nations theory. Why?
I agree that it is not easy to explain why left wingers are urging a vote for Fianna Fail, although there are precedents for communists supporting that party.
The position of the Irish Political Review is that Irish independence was a positive development. The 1916 Rising was a dispute over a foreign policy. The mainstream of Irish nationalism led by John Redmond wanted an alliance with the British Empire in exchange for some local autonomy. It did not dissent from British foreign policy and therefore was quite happy to encourage the blood sacrifice of tens of thousands of Irish people in the interests of Britain.
The 1916 rebels, on the other hand, did not believe that we had any quarrel with Germany and invited our “gallant allies” in Europe to support their struggle against the British Empire. The vision of the 1916 revolutionaries won out and set in train the development of an independent state which felt no obligation to send troops to Iraq in 2003.
With the exception of the years when Douglas Gageby was its editor, The Irish Times has since the Treaty in 1921 opposed all national developments independent of Britain. In particular it was vehement in its opposition to national leaders such as De Valera who built on the partial independence achieved in 1921.
Charles Haughey broke the link with sterling, brought Ireland into the European Monetary system and developed close relations with Francois Mitterrand and Jacques Delors in the national interest. He has never been forgiven for it by the secret oath bound directory which currently runs The Irish Times. I happen to believe that the fact that some millionaires decided to finance Haughey’s lavish lifestyle is of no consequence.
Bertie Ahern has indicated that he wants to do something about the revisionist view of Irish history which has achieved dominance in Irish academia and therefore he must be “taken out”. Incidentally he has already been “taken out” once. It was an Irish Times story by Geraldine Kennedy in 1994 that persuaded the Labour party to withdraw from the Fianna Fail led government and resulted in John Bruton succeeding Albert Reynolds as Taoiseach at a crucial period in Anglo-Irish relations. It is interesting that the current controversy relates to Ahern’s personal affairs during that period and today Albert Reynolds to his discredit has added his bit to the anti-Ahern campaign. And of course it is given front page treatment in The Irish Times.
The Irish Times for most of its history since 1921 has denigrated Irish culture and identity. So called left wingers have been useful in participating in this project. A recent article by Fintan O’ Toole suggested that we missed a great opportunity to remember on our national day that St Patrick was a slave and that the Irish were slave owners. For Fintan O’ Toole it is irrelevant that the Irish didn’t have a state then. We should still wallow in our shame.
The Irish Times celebrates “multi-culturalism”. A recent editorial urged a “redefinition of Irishness”, presumably because the existing “Irishness” is so shameful. It is not urging us merely to be tolerant of other cultures but is encouraging us on a “process” in which we will be different to what we are. Here is an extract from the editorial of March 17th, our national day:
“The process in which we have been engaged in recent years, the gradual internalisation in all of us of a new sense of inclusive Irishness, is not just about accepting that one can be black and Irish, or Polish and Irish; it is also about national reconciliation and a new relationship with the “old enemy” so magnificently expressed at the Ireland-England game in Croke Park.”
I would submit that the last bit gives the game away.
I honestly don't know why they support the idea that a major newspaper should be connected with a political party - saying that because it's so elsewhere is merely confusing an "is" with an "ought" - it provides no explanation. What is given is an odd notion that a political party would somehow give the newspaper guidance or an overall outlook. This strikes me as at best patronising and worst reduces the paper to a mouthpiece for the party. (I have grave reservations about Geraldine Kennedys' editorial decisions in the Irish Times.)
Fianna Fáil did (and still has on paper) the Irish Press Group, but they went under in 1995.
"We should defend our tradition of corruption so?"
I suspect that's what he's saying. It reminds me of a column written by John Waters some years ago, when he claimed that accusations of corruption was due to a misunderstanding of culture.
"Gombeens against Globalisation!"
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that B&ICO are using that as a front already!!!
"The notion that Fianna Fail are acting as a bulwark against capitalist globalisation is so absurd that words fail me. Have you been living in a poítín-induced reminiscence of Dev's Ireland for the last 20 years?"
I'd speculate that the B&ICO crowd have found themselves becoming so irrelevant that they've decided to stick even more doggedly to their views than before - hence their fetishisation of Fianna Fáil.
Corruption ... Gombeens ... !!!
If the above exhibition of national self-hatred is anything to go on, then the Irish Times has already won, and we should just apologise to Queen Elizabeth and ask her to overlook the past 90 years of Irish history.
Checkov’s identification of a fundmental flaw in the IPR Group’s press statement is itself fundamentally flawed. He wants the media to follow up aspects of the Taoiseach’s finances that the Mahon Tribunal is prevented from investigating. The point is that the Mahon Tribunal as a judicial body is trying with every means at its disposal to prevent newspapers from publishing stories based on leaked documents from it. Its work is being undermined by these leaks.
There are laws that prevent the media from reporting the details of crimes that are to be dealt with in court. Such media reporting would make justice impossible. If the Tribunals are to be able to function the media should be told to back off, if necessary by legislation.
From a journalistic perspective all the details of Bertiegate must be chased up. From a political perspective the question to ask is: Does Bertie’s record show that the national interest has ever been anything less than his top priority. He is not the greatest Taoiseach or Fianna Fail leader ever but there has never has been the faintest whiff of suspicion in the highly sensitive world of politics that he has acted for particular business interests or whatever. I think the editors who have forced this controversy upon us have failed to see this story in its true proportion. From a political perspective the Bertie story is a non-story.
The IPR Group is not anti-media. The problem we are highlighting is specific to Ireland. We are protesting against the way the Irish media is waging this campaign against the Taoiseach and we are questioning the motivation of the Irish Times in particular.
If Checkov equates traditional culture in Ireland with corruption maybe he’s read too many Irish Times opinion columns. I believe that sections of the media want to discredit the national tradition as a means of integrating this State more effectively into the Anglo American camp. I would have lots of criticisms of Fianna Fail but Bertie is being targeted by exactly this anti-national element and opponents of globalisation should not be joining in the hunt.
De Valera once stated that it was impossible for Ireland to stop the Great Powers from initiating military adventures or starting wars, but that we could refuse to be their instrument in such actions. Without him this State would be a pale little Treatyite extension of the UK. I suspect there is more to Dev’s Ireland than Checkov knows.
Bertie has been found out....The media are no longer in fear of the Irish government gestapo, thanks to one courageous journalist who was arrested for daring to follow a story that the minister for injustice tried to quash. The tribunals they set up only mean that none of the shysters can be brought before a real court of law to answer for their crimes......Let's get some hungry politicians from Eastern Europe at a fraction of the price!......Let them live in the Ireland we do. The whiff of third world style corruption has always made this country a joke in the eyes of the world. It's time to make an example of these money grubbing arseholes who think that the laws of the land only apply to people who earn less than seventy grand a year.....NONE of these thieves have the interests of Ireland or her people foremost in their minds....
It may be of no consequence to John Martin that a few millionares bankrolled Haughey. It matters deeply to me, a school leaver in the early 1980s who remembers that hypocrite telling us that we were living beyond our means while he bought Charvet shirts. Well my family weren't living beyond our means. I remember 'health cuts hurt the old the sick and the handicapped.' How is it unpatriotic to oppose Haughey, a man who aped the lifestyle of an English squire? He owned an island for christ's sake! This is trying to provide some sort of left wing cover for a crowd of chancers who have bene in the pockets of land re-zoners and property developers since the 1960s. As for 'pro-Dev' I have no problem with Dev, I don't think he was a hypocrite; Haughey, McSharry, Ahern, Lawlor, Burke...bastards, all of them. And we are still paying for it.
Ray McSharry was an outstanding minister and did an enourmous amount of work for Sligo. I think if you cross the Shannon you'll find your grossly inaccurate opinion of the man very strongly challenged.
"...but there has never has been the faintest whiff of suspicion in the highly sensitive world of politics that he has acted for particular business interests or whatever.
'I didn't appoint them because they gave me money, I appointed them because they were my friends'
Bertie Ahern.
As it happens I left school in the early 1980s as well. And there was a lot of reason to be “bitter and twisted” then: emigration (was it 30,000 a year?) and unemployment close to 20%. I remember the joke at the time was “we should return the country to Britain and apologise to Queen Elizabeth for the way we left it”.
But what reason have we to be “bitter and twisted” now? We have immigration and almost full employment. Could all those Eastern Europeans really be so wrong about our country? No one is cracking that Queen Elizabeth joke now. Indeed other countries are looking at our achievements. Scotland is wondering about her relationship with England. The leader of the SNP quite often points to Ireland as an example of what can be achieved with independence.
Okay so it’s not a socialist paradise and I suppose it’s the prerogative of the left to whinge and moan. But the whinging and moaning is not confined to the left. The Irish Times is to the forefront of this despite, never tiring of boasting about its high income readers. “John” of the interesting statistics, suspects that newspaper has a socialist agenda. But it certainly does not have a “socialist agenda” it has an anti-national one. Various so called left wingers are given a run, but most of what they write has nothing to do with socialism. It consists of a moral denunciation of the native capitalist class and native politicians. But the problem for The Irish Times is not capitalism; it’s the Irish and their decision to be independent of Britain. That is the political agenda behind all the moral denunciation and alleged “gombeenism”. And Fianna Fail is the party most closely associated with the State.
I could go on at length about the hysterical anti Fianna Fail campaign now being waged by The Irish Times. I would recommend people read last Saturday’s editorial which was just the most extreme example of that paper’s coverage. Also, take a look at the opinion polls of that newspaper. Look at the core vote in today’s front page and then try and figure out how it arrives at the “adjusted” vote. Just look at the picture on the front page. McDowell and Ahern are huddled together and Rabbitte and Kenny are striding forward confidently. “John” might call this “socialist realist art” but in my view it is something else entirely.
To John Martin - Irish Political Review:
Excellent stuff. Clearly the Irish Times is running a hysterical anti-Fianna Fail campaign. I will now take your word for it that it is not primarily motivated by a socialist agenda but by an anti-national agenda. You almost certainly have far more 'inside' knowledge of what motivates the bigwigs in the Irish Times than I do. My knowledge is limited merely to reading the paper and I assumed they had a socialist agenda because of the vituperative daily anti-Fianna Fail outpourings on that paper of people I have always considered to be socialists, such as Vincent Browne, Fintan O' Toole and Mary Raftery. But, if you say these people are simply being given a run and that the real agenda of the Irish Times is primarily anti-national rather than socialist, I will take your word for it without question.
As well as concentrating on Bertiegate, might I suggest you also look at the news management being carried out by the Irish Times as part
of their anti-Fianna Fail campaign, particularily in relation to the economy and health. For the past month the Irish Times has been trying to portray the Celtic Tiger as on its last legs. But just today the CSO published statistics showing manufacturing output in Ireland increasing by 13.9 per cent in the first quarter of 2007 as compared with the first quarter of 2006. This is the sort of growth we had in the late 90s. Clearly such growth makes nonsense of claims that the Irish economy's performance is deteriorating or that a crash is coming. It will be interesting to see how the Irish Times treats this news tomorrow. Allready today, the well-known economist Dan McLaughlin has rubbished claims that the Irish economy is slowing down and is predicting growth of 6 per cent this year. In other words, the CELTIC TIGER ROARS ON. Another example of Irish Times news management is their failure to report CSO statistics that came out on Monday week last (in the latest edition of Monitoring Ireland's Progress) showing Iife expectancy in Ireland increasing to 7th highest (out of 27) in the EU and overtaking most of our neighbouring countries. As health is the number one issue for voters and as historically Ireland has had for decades one of the lowest life expectancies in Europe, one might think that the news that we're now moving towards the top of the EU league table for life expectancy would merit a mention in the Irish Times. But, alas no. Perhaps Chekov will print it in his Village magazine and have a scoop.
"If the above exhibition of national self-hatred is anything to go on, then the Irish Times has already won, and we should just apologise to Queen Elizabeth and ask her to overlook the past 90 years of Irish history."
That's just staggeringly dishonest. The article's argument essentially boils down to the claim that the scrutiny into the finances of Bertie Ahern represents an attack on traditional Irish culture. From this one can only assume that you consider receiving gifts (or interest free, non-repayable loans) of tens of thousands from wealthy business people to be a part of traditional Irish culture. I am willing to bet vast sums of money that 99% of the Irish population has never experienced this particular manifestation of our supposed culture.
I can hardly think of a more intellectually threadbare, dishonest approach than to claim that anybody who criticises such relations between the business and political elite is guilty of "national self-hatred". Such gombeenism is not a part of our national culture, it's a part of the culture of our political elite, and it's not at all confined to Fianna Fail. Sure, the IT is guilty of focusing overwhelmingly on one particular figure, who does not appear to be the most compromised by any means, and I'm sure they have their reasons for that, but it doesn't mean that it's alright. Just because they're out to get him, doesn't mean he isn't guilty.
It's also completely false to claim that such payments are a traditional part of Irish culture. The early years of the state were marked by a political elite who were generally scrupulously honest when it came to public service as there was a widespread belief in the newly born state. Their politics and their ideas may have been fundamentally mistaken, authoritarian and oppressive, but they weren't generally personally compromised by money.
And if anybody thinks that such payments have no influence on decision making, they're just denying reality. It is impossible to prove that any particular decision was influenced by any particular payment, but it's a fact that's as well proven as any in the social sciences, that decisions tend to be influenced by favours. If you have a system where key decision makers routinely accept payments from wealthy individuals, their decisions will, on balance, tend to favour those individuals - that's irrefutable and it operates in all walks of life, even in areas such as science and medicine where the decision makers take personal ethics way more seriously than politicians do.
To be honest, I find this whole train of argument to be completely and utterly bizzare. Do ye think we're all complete idiots?
Its completely bizzare cos the tiny sect ( BICO/IPR/Cliffordistas) making the argument are as bizarre as it gets: unionist-stalinists turned nationalist-social democrats/old labourists. Now there are many exampleson the left of people making spectacular ideological journies but this is one of the freakiest.
Nothing wrong, you might say, with people changing their minds but the problem is that when this happens in a left-sect they usually pretend they never held their old views at all, thinking we're all stupid and wont notice the 100% u-turn. The SWP have done this repeatedly in the past but hardly on this scale: after all their intention is to hide the u-turn from impressionable young recruits not the world and its mother. The Post-BICO group just flipped sometime in the early nineties and carried on as if nothing had happened. Its as if your local parish priest appeared at the pulpit one sunday in heavy metal gear and urged the congregation in his usual patronising tones to indulge in a spot of human sacrifice. In this case they got away with it because hardly anyone noticed and no one gave a damn what a sect of half a dozen nuts does or says, but boy are they fun to follow, if you have like to indulge in a bit of nerdish sect-watching. But not too much, it makes you forget about the real world. Have to go now, a whole world to win!
"one might think that the news that we're now moving towards the top of the EU league table for life expectancy would merit a mention in the Irish Times. But, alas no. Perhaps Chekov will print it in his Village magazine and have a scoop."
I'm afraid I've already filed my copy for the next issue. It's entitled "The lack of fawning coverage of the British monarchy in the Irish Media is symptomatic of our base and ignoble race. The British Empire was really rather good. Us peasants are a darned ungrateful bunch of gombeens."
my OBE is in the post.
It is bizarre. What comes over is an irrational anti-Irish Times agenda on the part of IPR. God knows the IT is far from perfect and deserving of criticism, but reading a pro-British/US agenda into their motives and coverage of 'Bertiegate' is perverse. It really only serves to demonstrate a sort of obsessive chippiness about the paper's historical role in Irish journalism. While there is much justifiable criticism to be made on that account, IPR, because of their determiation to put their dislike of the IT ahead of every other consideration, are anxious to show a causal link between two issues which are quite separate - hence the necessity to re-interpret Fianna Fail's record on corruption. There is a serious loss of perspective apparent in their article. Perhaps the kindest thing we can do is to look away discreetly - and give them time to realise what chumps they have made of themselves.
The earlier Irish leadership was "fundamentally mistaken" (see Chekov above). The current leadership is fundamentally corrupt. If this is true then the Irish people who have generated and authorised such leadership from among their own must itself be fundamentally flawed in accordance with the recent denunciation of us by the Irish Times, and its demand that we must re-brand or re-invent ourselves is well-founded.
Is it actually important what the motivation of the Irish Times is? The key point is that they are providing hysterical and biased coverage of this election and indulging in a witchhunt against one particular party. If this was limited to opinion columns in the paper, alongside accurate news columns, it would be tolerable. But, it isn't. Every news story in the paper is being doctored to fit in with their overall viewpoint and any news which doesn't support their view that the country is going to the dogs under the present Government is simply not reported. It could well be because they are anti-national, as the Irish Political Review Group say. Its quite possible that its a mixture of motives on the part of different people in the Irish Times. Some in the Irish Times may have both an anti-national motivation and a socialist motivation, e.g. Fintan O'Toole. Others, eg. Vincent Browne, may have a socialist motivation, without being anti-national. While Geraldine Kennedy, I now realise from reading the posts here, probably has only an anti-national motivation. But, the point is, they all hate Fianna Fail and want to see this Government defeated. Fair enough, all are entitled to their view, which can be expressed in the opinion columns of the paper. But, its an assault on democracy when all the news reporting is as biased and inaccurate as it has been in the Irish Times since the election campaign began. It reminds me of the Sun in the 1992 UK general election. Chekov, if you ever want to be an ace reporter, you should grab a scoop when its handed to you on a plate.
Chekov:
I dare you or your boss, Vincent Browne, to put these figures in Village magazine:
these are for the road deaths rate in Ireland since 1994:
1994 11.252
1995 12.109
1996 12.454
1997 12.846
1998 12.335
1999 10.999
2000 10.906
2001 10.630
2002 9.563
2003 8.384
2004 9.193
2005 9.521
2006 8.622
between 1994 and 1997: increase of 14 per cent
between 1997 and 2004: decrease of 33 per cent
What are the chances the Irish Times will print these before the election? Pigs will fly sooner.
Lordie me son, you've really exceeded yourself. Ranting about the "anti-national" agenda of Geraldine Kennedy and the IT is enough to place you in the category of prize fruit loops. You've made an eejit of yourself many times before on this site but this really takes the biscuit.
Speaking of your silliness, are you still standing by your prediction of a few months ago that Sinn Fein will lose all their seats in the election? If not, why not?
As always on Indymedia.ie (or anywhere else for that matter) one of the surest signs of someone trying to mislead or misdirect is when they fail to provide a citation in support of their contentions. Citations are great. They let anyone else go and check whether or not there's: 1) what they'd consider a reputable source; 2) the "facts" have been interpreted correctly; 3) there are other facts which provide a different picture.
In this case John has omitted to provide a source for his data. Luckily there's a government body (which despite all sorts of problems with their proposals and recommendations) which provides some sort of information. In this case it's the National Roads Authority
http://nra.ie/PublicationsResources/ListofPublications/...fety/
and they have a very nice graph available here on page 11 of this publication:
http://nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumen...n.pdf
which shows that road deaths have been falling steadily pretty much without any regard for which local chieftans (Labour, FG, FF or PD) have been in power. It's probably something to do with better braking systems and airbags. What's left out of the picture is what the actual death rate might be, if instead of hundreds of thousands of morons motoring around at high speeds there was a comprehensive public transport system. I'm betting it'd be a lot lower.
Thanks to the extremist policies of IBEC (and it's mouthpieces in Labour, FG, FF, PD) Ireland has squandered its boom euros on giving every boy racer a new motor and a crowded corridor at the local hospital to die in.
Irish Road Deaths 1972-2004
It seems to be an act of blatant hypocrissy to constantly focus on the media and moan about them not focussing on the 'issues.'
The mainstream media are crap and that's a given. But to have a go at them for this and then, not to recognise that the political parties, especially Fianna Fail, only pay lip service to the issues themselves come election time, is either overt stupidity or covert dishonesty. The rest of the time, these so-called leaders spend focussing on what the media are now blathering on about, in this case the only thing the media are guilty of is lag. For example, whatever happened to Mr. Ahern's promise to end waiting lists in hospitals, on his last effort to con the general public?
If you wish to have a go at the media, by all means do so, they deserve it. But, do not do so for the express purpose of elevating those who possess not a shred of decency or morality. That's having an agenda and is just as dishonest as the maintream sewerage.
The call by the Irish Times for the general populace to re-brand or re-invent itself, due to the mismanagement of successive governments, is a totally corrupt examination of the issue.
As is Eamonn de Paor's call for the same action, in agreement with those he's trying to besmirch, in order to attempt to score a point againsr Chekov, this is at best childish, and it is I believe, focussing on a point that Chekov hasn't made.
The general public are not the problem. The system and those who exploit it are the problem.
Every topic under the sun seems to be cropping up in this thread. Even the 'Celtic Tiger,' has made an appearence. The Celtic tiger itself is a blatant act of propaganda. There's nothing Celtic about this beast. It's all got to do with that other propaganda word, 'investment.' A much more honest description of this beast would be a 'Trojan Tiger.'
There is a recurring theme in this discussion that the IPR group is bizarre and that the development of the group is laughably inconsistent. Actually the IPR is an established publication with a record of coherent political analysis. What some people seem to have difficulty with is that we are prepared to engage in independent thinking.
In the seventies we upset sections of the Left by pointing out that the Ulster Protestant community had come through a separate national development and that no amount of political pressure would cause it to acquiesce in a 32 county unified state. If we had been engaged with at that time instead of vilified, thinking on the Left nationalist side might have been made deeper. As things have turned out all shades of political opinion, whether openly or not, now accept that Protestant Ulster has the right to opt out of a 32 county unitary state. We continue to publish and sell copies of The Economics of Partition, the work on which the so-called two nations theory was based.
Having opposed the attempt to disregard the actual history of Ulster unionism we discovered that belief in Irish nationalism had collapsed in the establishment down South sometime in the early nineties. In tandem with this collapse a revisionist, anti national element began pushing an agenda to change the way Irish history was taught. Part of that agenda may be to bring back the Republic into the fold of British cultural influence. These elements have been pushing an open door.
By chance we discovered correspondence between the owner of the Irish Times, Major Thomas McDowell and the British Foreign Office, released in the British state papers office. This correspondence contained a clear invitation to Downing Street issued in 1969 to assist in controlling the Irish Times.
This campaign to neuter the Irish national tradition is being conducted in disregard of history in the same way that the campaign to break unionist resistance to a united Ireland was conducted. We think that this project to wean Ireland away from its cultural roots will have a demoralising effect and will open the society up for ever increasing waves of globalisation.
Unfortunately the effort to roll back the national tradition, traditional culture, call it what you will, has been running very smoothly indeed. So smoothly that the revisionists or anglicisers are becoming rather ambitious. Hence we have Bertiegate.
The one formula that has worked a treat for doing in traditional nationalist culture is to run media campaigns against corruption. This was spectacularly successful in the campaign against Haughey and now it is being used against Ahern. Frankly I don’t buy the argument that corruption was a major problem in the Irish political elite. There are societies like the Ukraine or some societies in Africa where corruption acts as a major block to development. Ireland was never like that. Its economic development could not follow text book lines; a business class had to be created; the State had to play a role in awarding contracts to favoured businesses; but development was never impeded by corruption.
In conclusion, the IPR Group is putting forward a different analysis on Bertiegate than is to be found elsewhere. The debate would go better if the focus was on the topic and not on the origins and history of the IPR group. The choice in this controversy is between government by politics as represented by Fianna Fail and government by media as represented by the Irish Times. We support the primacy of politics
The figures are simply the numbers of road deaths given in the Garda Siochanna web site divided by the population of Ireland (i.e. R. Ireland). Your graph matches exactly what my figures show. Road deaths ROSE between 1994 and 1997 during the period of the last FG/Lab government. Your graph clearly shows that. They actually rose each year between 1994 and 1997. If you can't see that in your graph, I'll send you a microscope. Road deaths then fell after 1997, which again your graph clearly shows. The only difference between your graph and my figures is that my figures go up to 2006, while your graph stops at 2004. Try and get up to date.
No, I think Sinn Fein will do better than I predicted some months ago. This is because they've largely abandoned their crazy economic policies, as many posters on Indymedia have pointed out. In the past few weeks they've dumped their plans to increase corporation tax, they've dumped their plans to increase capital gains tax. Virtually every day since the campaign started, Gerry Adams has been on the radio announcing the abandonment of their previous policy of raising this or that tax. I'm probably the only poster on this site who welcomes this.
Thanks for your comments. At least you are prepared to engage with the issues raised rather than remain stuck in some left wing sectarian dispute of more than 30 years ago.
The figures you quote seem to be indisputable. However as a socialist I am not a fan of Mary Harney. In particular, the location of private hospitals adjacent to public hospital land does not seem a good idea. I favour a national health service, but maybe we can agree to disagree.
I think you are absolutely right to focus on news management in The Irish Times. This is far more important than what is said in editorial and opinion columns. It is the raw material of the latter. My impression is that in general the newspaper is very sympathetic in its news coverage of Mary Harney as Minister for Health. I noticed this, in particular during the controversy over BUPA and its demand to end risk equalisation a few months ago. The general tenor of the news coverage was supportive of BUPA and competition in the health insurance market.
Fortunately, I haven’t much direct experience of our health service. Anecdotal evidence would suggest it is not in a good state. But I digress. I’m not an expert on this topic.
To get back to news management, the problem is that you would have to know what is left out as much as what is put in. This is very difficult to know unless you have direct knowledge of the story. Not everyone can keep abreast of the latest CSO statistics.
I have no inside knowledge of The Irish Times. However, a friend of mine who contributes to the Irish Political Review discovered some remarkable documents in the Public Records Office in London, which were released under the 30 year rule. In one of them the British Ambassador reported in October 1969 that the Chief Executive of The Irish Times wished the paper to be placed under the guidance of the British State. The Chief Executive, Major Thomas McDowell, was unhappy with the editorial line being pushed by his editor Douglas Gageby. The British Ambassador reported that McDowell referred to his editor as “a renegade or white nigger on Northern matters”.
All of this was first revealed in the January 2003 issue of the Irish Political Review. By any standards this was a sensational document, but the renowned investigative skills of Irish Times journalists seemed to have deserted them. The details of the document were only revealed in The Irish Times after they were published in the previous day’s Sunday Independent. And The Irish Times report reads more like a rebuttal of the Sunday Independent than a news item.
There was no follow up investigative work except by the Irish Political Review. We discovered other documents in the British Records Office to support the general thrust of the “white nigger” letter as well as some interesting details about the British Army Major, Thomas McDowell.
This is not some old story going back to 1969. Major McDowell was Chief Executive of The Irish Times Ltd from 1962 to 1997. He was Chairman of The Irish Times Trust which controls the newspaper from 1974 to 2001 and he is currently honoured with the title President for Life of The Irish Times Group.
When I hear The Irish Times talking about their right to publish the details of stolen documents from the Mahon tribunal in order to undermine our Taoiseach, I treat its moral indignation with the contempt it deserves.
John, by your own data and logic the years 2003 - 2005 are a damning indictment of whatever government was in power then. Similarly if you look at the tiny rise (which is in the nature of a random fluctuation) which I agree occured from 1994-1997 you'll see several rises of comparable or much greater magnitude if you make even the sincerest effort to look at the graph.
2003 - 2005: The Wonder Years Starring ?????
2003 8.384
2004 9.193
2005 9.521
Anyway, your shoddy reasoning has been exposed and there are none so blind as those who will not see.
I wonder why John didn't use a much clearer representation of the statistics for road deaths in Ireland, considering that he misused this particular site earlier with regard to his attempt to suggest that Mr. Ahern has made Ireland a happy place. I got the graph I'm posting from a pdf file at: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/roadsafety_library/care/d...n.pdf
The rest of the file makes interesting reading too.
The page where I got the link to this pdf file also makes interesting reading: "26 April 2007 - New European Commission figures out tomorrow morning (Friday 27 April) show that Ireland has the highest percentage of young people killed in road accidents in the EU.":
http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/press_office/news_of_the_da...n.htm
A clearer idea of what's going on
I suppose I ought to point out to John and his buddies, that on the above graph, that travelling by bus is by far the safest mode of transport.
It makes me wonder. I wonder how much money is spent on the penalty points system, the Gardaí who enforce traffic laws, the courts and the hospitals etc. who deal with traffic accidents.
I look at the state and cost of road maintenance and the millions of man hours squandered in frustrating traffic jams.
What if the Government actually cared?
Surely a good way to decrease traffic accidents to a minimum, would be to expand the public transport system so that it was adequate and to make it a free service. How many would waste money driving their cars if they could hop on a bus for free?
Less oil would be wasted. Traffic flow would become more efficient. Less money would be spent criminalising, prosecuting and burying folks. The gardaí could be redeployed for the most part to crime prevention, as opposed to acting as meter maids. The Courts would become more efficient having to try less traffic offences. Millions of man hours could be spent more productively and lucratively. Hell, it would even tend to make folks happier.
There are many more benefits. Why won't this happen?
Because our government or indeed the 'opposition' don't have the beginnings of a clue between them.
Mr. Isible,
May I point out that it is now 2007.
If you don't believe me, look at the time it gives for your own post (Sat May 12, 2007 04:37).
That means figures are now available for years beyond 2005. You only give figures up to 2005
The road deaths rate fell back again in 2006 by almost 10 per cent and, so far in 2007, its down again by about 15 per cent.
The facts are quite simple:
The road deaths rate in Ireland rose each year during the period of the Rainbow Government - it rose in 1995, 1996 and 1997. The
graph you kindly supplied shows that clearly. So, that's 0 out of 3 years when the Rainbow Government reduced the road deaths
rate and 3 out of 3 years when they increased it.
Under the FF/PD government since 1997, the road deaths rate fell in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006 and almost
certainly in 2007. That's 8 years out of 10 when it fell and 2 years out of 10 when it rose. Again your graph shows that up to 2005.
While reducing the road deaths rate in 8 years out of 10 is not as good as 10 out of 10 would have been, its still better than
reducing it in 0 years out of 3, which is what the Rainbow Coalition achieved.
Mr. Ryan,
"Ireland has the highest percentage of young people killed in road accidents in the EU"
That doesn't mean the road deaths rate for young people is the highest in the EU. Actually, we're about mid-table. It means that of
those killed in road accidents, the percentage of them who were young was the highest in the EU. By the laws of statistics, it follows
that the percentage of them who were not young was the lowest in the EU (which again doesn't mean that the road deaths rate
for them was the lowest).
I didn't mean to talk above your head. I thought you were being a disingenuous troll and was sincerely unaware that you're completely ignorant of basic statistics. My apologies for wasting your time. I'd suggest that before you attempt to discuss this further that you spend some time reading an introductory textbook paying particular attention to the sections on correlation and time-series. Best of luck.
Not only have I read numerous statistics textbooks, I've written two, probably before you were born. Perhaps you've read them. Although, if you have, they don't seem to have done you much good. Which of the points I stated in my last post are you in disagreement with? You don't specify. Since you consider yourself an expert on time series, here's another for you to digest: Ireland's infant mortality rate. Before you ask, the figures come from the CSO Vital statistics reports:
infant mortality rate in Ireland since 1989:
1989 8.5
1990 8.2
1991 7.6
1992 6.5
1993 6.1
1994 5.7
1995 6.4
1996 6.0
1997 6.1
1998 5.9
1999 5.9
2000 6.2
2001 5.7
2002 5.0
2003 5.3
2004 4.6
2005 4.0
You will observe that if fell sharply between 1989 and 1992 when guess who was in power, rose between 1994 and 1997 when guess who was in power, but since 1997 has fallen sharply when guess who has been in power. Any conclusions?
This is all rather disappointing and trivial. However your claim to have written two statistics textbooks enables me to place you squarely into the category of complete and utter liar. There is no earthly way that anyone with the most trivial introduction to the subject would make the claims you have made. You have obviously got absolutely no idea how ridiculuous your assertions are. It's impossible for me to enlighten you before you've done a couple of months of hard work. Come back when you've done that if you still need help, but I think you'll realise how silly what you've been claiming is before then.
"You have obviously got absolutely no idea how ridiculuous your assertions are."
You are an incredibly vague man. Why do you never specify which of my claims or assertions are ridiculous?
My last post doesn't contain any assertions pertaining to the matters under discussion. It simply contains a set of statistics, which
obviously have greatly upset you. If you think any of them are wrong, please say so and give (what you think) is the correct one.
While we're on a roll, here's a few more: the median age of death of CF sufferers in Ireland.
1994 19.0
1995 17.0
1997 15.5
1998 20.0
1999 16.5
2000 17.0
2001 23.0
2002 19.0
2003 23.5
2004 25.0
available on web site: www3.nbnet.nb.ca/normap/cfstats.htm
no claims, no assertions, but the figures speak for themselves.
Sean Ryan says, above:
"The call by the Irish Times for the general populace to re-brand or re-invent itself, due to the mismanagement of successive governments, is a totally corrupt examination of the issue.
As is Eamonn de Paor's call for the same action, in agreement with those he's trying to besmirch, in order to attempt to score a point against Chekov, this is at best childish, and it is I believe, focussing on a point that Chekov hasn't made."
If we accept the left argument, expressed by Chekov and others, that political developments brought about by the Irish independence movement, were in the first instance fundamentally mistaken, and latterly fundamentally corrupt, then the argument of the Anglicisers and revisionists (expressed by the Irish Times and others) that the Irish people as such are fundamentally flawed, is a not unreasonable deduction. Leading inevitably to the ludricous, fundamentalist, destructive demand that the Irish should, in disgrace, remake their identity and turn themselves into something else. (And guess what our new identity should be ... Remembrance, Somme (but don't mention Iraq!!)).
This tactic of bogus left posturing is not new. In the 1880's some landlords resisted the tenant movement by attempting unsuccessfully to organise the farm labourers against the tenant farmers. ("Trust us, we're British!") In fact the labourers movement worked hand in hand with the tenants' movement, and both made massive gains as a result.
Allow me to express that I am confused as to what point Eamonn is trying to make in the above comment. He still will not say that he disagrees with the Irish Times viewpoint.
The argument that Chekov made is not a complex one. It largely comes down to viewpoint. For example the early leaders of the Irish nation may not have been misguided, they may have been as corrupt as the shower that succeeded them (which is the way I look at it).
The overall point is that Irish society is not where we want it. Not a singular department of the government can now, nor could it ever have been, described as fully functional.
To say that this is the fault of the Irish public is akin to laying the blame on an abused child for being abused.
Successive governments have been given a position of power and trust and the result is that the Irish people have been abused. This is neither a tactical position espoused by the left nor is it bogus; it's reality.
One can look back to incidents in our history all one wants to and come up with arguments that suit one's standpoint. However if one focuses on the present, it's much harder to find excuses. In all fairness to Eamonn and with respect, I suggest that he either shits or that he gets off the pot.
We are getting slightly off the subject and I'm not sure from what perspective Eamonn de Paor is coming from, but I have to agree with his analysis.
The Left in this country, or at least the Irish Times and media left, supports the counter revolution. It is ashamed of the national revolution. The logic of its denigration of the national revolution is indeed a return to Britain.
Unfortunately for these ideologues the Irish people refuse to remake themselves into the model prescribed for them. This is why the left is doomed to irrelevance.
Ever since I have been eligible to vote I have supported the left. In this election I will be voting Fianna Fail for the first time. I don't consider this an abandonment of my socialist principles. My position is that at least Fianna Fail supports the State. No political development, never mind left wing political development can take place other than within a stable state structure.
Revolution?
You suggest that the left is trying to allign us with Britain. I take offense at that, or at least I would if it were not so obviously misguided.
It is not the left who are implementing changes to the justice system that bring us into line with the British and American model. For example, the inferrance of guilt from silence is an assumption of guilt before trial and is fundamentally opposed to the assumption of innocence.
The privatisation of everything is an American and British methodology and can hardly be blamed on the left.
Page iii of the little blue book, commonly mistaken for the Irish Constitution, admits that the Constitution has been altered without recourse to a referendum, to bring it into line with modern thought (American and British). This act of blatant treason cannot be blamed on the left.
Mandatory sentencing introduced (multiple times), despite all competent study showing that mandatory sentencing should be abolished, is not down to the left either.
There is no facet to the Irish government or their rule that is down to either Irish tradition or Irish thinking and this too is not the fault of the left.
Despite the possibility of Ireland having both the capacity and the ability for self sufficiency, we are utterly dependent on the success of foreign markets and 'investment,' especially British and American. Sovereignty demands self sufficiency and self dependence. The left did not give Irish sovereignty away.
The Irish Government, despite only being stewards of Irish national resources have given Shell a present of Irish gas, despite them not being in a position to claim ownership and in defiance of UN law. Again not the fault of the left.
It's easy via argument to blame the left for every ill that the right have brought upon us. However, considering that the left have never been in power, to do so is totally dishonest and ignorant.
I think you are the one who is in urgent need of a bowel movement. You would indeed fit into the category of bogus left. What other explanation is there for you supporting Noel O'Gara? Perhaps its his Constitutional Rights you worry about. Poor Mr O'Gara is being cruelly treated by the State. All Landlords should be free to trample on the serfs!
I do not support Noel O Gara and have never met the man.
You are a liar.
The problem is not the media. The problem is when skeletons come popping out of politicians' cupboards. It is important to make it look as if good people are being maligned by a vicious, sensationalist and, best of all, Dublin-based media. There is never any question of morals, ethics, or simply doing the right thing being discussed; no, the bad news mongers caused it all. It's an old ploy, belovéd of political parties desperate for scapegoats and who are aware that a rural-urban divide can be exploited, always.
"No, I think Sinn Fein will do better than I predicted some months ago. This is because they've largely abandoned their crazy economic policies, as many posters on Indymedia have pointed out. In the past few weeks they've dumped their plans to increase corporation tax, they've dumped their plans to increase capital gains tax. Virtually every day since the campaign started, Gerry Adams has been on the radio announcing the abandonment of their previous policy of raising this or that tax. I'm probably the only poster on this site who welcomes this. "
Son, son, son, what do they say? "When you're in a hole, stop digging!" Sinn Fein are on more or less the same score in the opinion polls they have been on for the last year, give or take a point or two. Their change of policy on corporation tax hasn't made any difference to their popularity, it was just to make sure they could go into government with FF if the numbers added up after the election. You're desperately trying to erase the memory of your spectacularly daft prediction by claiming that it was valid at the time, but is no longer valid because SF have changed policy. Anyone with the tiniest bit of knowledge of Irish politics will know how utterly laughable this is and laugh at your comical attempts to justify your consistently ludicrous, hysterical and downright preposterous comments on Indymedia.
And to think of the money your father and I spent on your education!
Sean, I can’t say if the left is trying to align us with Britain. I don’t know what goes on inside people’s heads. But by its support of the destructive activities of The Irish Times and the Tribunals it is objectively laying the groundwork for such an alignment. (Fortunately it has limited influence).
It’s amazing that not a single state department (now or ever) was “fully functional” according to you and yet by any reasonable objective analysis the state has been a success or maybe the tens of thousands of Eastern Europeans are masochists who come here to suffer.
I have already conceded that this country is not a socialist paradise. And of course the shortcomings can’t be blamed on the left. The Irish people haven’t trusted them enough to put them in power for any length of time.
The success of this economy has been based on purposeful activity by the state. The groundwork was laid by the Haughey government in 1987. We reduced our dependence on Britain and developed our relationship with continental Europe. We then used our tax laws to encourage American capital to locate here. The state was not passive; it picked and chose what it wanted from the US. And at present it is trying to encourage only the creation of high value jobs. In recent years I have noticed that it is encouraging the development of native capital. Again it is doing this in a very coherent and thoughtful way through Enterprise Ireland. Stability has been provided by social partnership.
Do I agree with everything that has been done? Of course not! The sale of Telecom Eireann was a disaster. Massive investment was put into it by the Haughey government when we didn’t have much money. This showed great foresight. And then a subsequent FF/PD government privatised it. That error can’t be laid at the door of Haughey.
Eamonn is absolutely right. The logic of your position is to lay us open to British cultural, political and economic hegemony. If we are so incompetent and corrupt may be we should get others to run our country for us. No wonder The Irish Times finds such leftism so useful.
Considering Scotland may be about to break away from the UK, it may take more than "denigrating the national revolution" (i.e. disagreeing with the IPR), to return Ireland to Britain!
I have often referred to the Irish Times as a piece of toilet paper. Indeed I have not been kind to it in this thread. If this makes me a pawn of the Times, I have no answer.
The fact that I've neither respect nor trust for the government does not make me a pawn of either British imperialism or the Irish Times. In fact if I had to rate both the media and the Government, I'd say that I think that overall, I dislike the media more. The media should be a voice for the people and should investigate the likes of the police, the judiciary and the Government. But it doesn't and because of this it has fundamentally betrayed its mandate.
By the way, I think the tribunals are rubbish too. And I'd like to point out that they were not set up by the Irish Times.
To suggest that the Times speaks on behalf of the left is at best misguided. I don't speak on behalf of the left either (before the troll jumps back in). I most certainly do not call for a merger with Britain and never have. More to the point, I never will.
So rather than focus on the rants of some other body (in this case the Times) and using this malarky to tar my views, why not focus on what I have said. Afterall, if I'm so wrong or badly informed, this should be quite easy to do. It is my contention, that the only tie that can be shown between my views and that of the Times, is that I believe that the Government is corrupt and should answer for it. I say that I'd have and express this opinion regardless to the existence of the corporate owned and inspired media.
Response to Sean Ryan from Eamonn de Paor:
(The postings by "Eamonn" above are not from me.)
I apologise if I have not made myself clear, it was not my intention to be vague.
I disagree with the revisionist, re-anglicising project of the Irish Times, which is designed not for reform but for subversion, or "counter-revolution", against the independent Irish state.
My argument is that a simple-minded element in the Irish left, in pursuing a valuable and necessary social agenda, allows its often valid critique of the exercise of power in the Irish state to be used to promote the very different agenda of the Irish Times and its accomplices.
Yes, I agree with Eamonn de Paor. Very well put.
I also agree with "yello". The big weakness of the revisionist movement is that Britain has really nothing to offer this country. However, the revisionist movement is having a very destructive effect on political culture in this country in pursueing their agenda. The effect is to retard political development in this country. The current election campagin is a shambles, not because of anything innate in the Irish people or its political class but because of the agenda being pursued by the Irish Times, which has been followed by other media.
The current election campagin is a shambles, not because of anything innate in the Irish people or its political class but because of the agenda being pursued by the Irish Times, which has been followed by other media.
The current election campaign is a shambles as a direct consequence of the economic and social policies that have been pursued and lauded by the government and the mainstream media (The Irish Times included) respectively over the past two decades -at least. It is increasingly obvious that exclusively capitalist policies have failed the country and yet all of the main political parties are falling overthemselves to prove their more-capitalist-than-thou credentials - the Greens included. (You should see what some of the GP people have been posing on Politics.ie) Irish men and women have canibalised their own country through cronyism, greed and corruption at every level of society. There is no British imperialist scheme masterminding any of that. Huge injections of EU money have precipitated a glutton fest among those who were already wealthy with a few others managing to get their faces in at the trough too. The gap between rich and poor, the wrecked infrastructure, the failed privatisations etc etc - it's all our own doing - because we go on voting for the people who are doing this to us. The attitude of the IPR and others above is so fundamentally patronising about the Irish electorate - as if we were incapapble of either fucking up -or succeeding under our own steam. There is a strong tendency among Irish people - a legacy of colonialism arguably - to dismiss civic or collective responsibility - the cute hoor as exemplified by Bertie Ahern and everything that Fianna Fail stands for, still appeals to too many people. It's as if people imaging that they are still 'getting one over on them' by turning a blind eye and/or emulating what they see going on. In that respect the Irish Times is right - there is an urgent need for Irish people to take a cold look at what they have become - and its time too for us to grow up and stop projecting ourselves as the victims of self-inflicted crimes. A good place to start would be by not voting for Fianna Fail or the PDs.
The P.D. Slogan says Don't throw it all away. Can anyone tell us how much is one of those Large posters.I'd be very interested to know.
We have not had an increase in our heating allowance
What is with Vincent Browne? This week he is saying "These foolish things shouldn't scupper Ahern" in the Sunday Business Post, dismissing the cash, digouts and other gifts / loans as just "a few foolish things 13 years ago". Last week (http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/05/06/story233...8.asp) he was concerned about "Preposterous tale of Bertie’s home improvements", with questions that Bertie cannot consistently answer.
Are all journalists now despotic opinion-makers rather than observers and correspondents?
Whilst I've consistantly agreed on the point made - that the media do have an agenda to subvert the populace - I still fail to see the point of this article or indeed the follow-up comments of either Eamonn de Paor or John Martin. In fairness if this article were just about saying that the media were corrupt it would have been hidden, as there are literally hundreds of examples of this viewpoint already on this site.
This article and the follow-up comments by the two above named posters has another purpose altogether. The attack on the media is but a diversion, with the real agenda thrown in seemingly as just a logical consequence of the fact that the media is corrupt. This 'logical' consequence is that the Government are really the good guys and are the victims of the naughty media.
To add to this eccentric viewpoint, it is also being alleged that the left are the stooges of the media and hence that they are 'bad' guys too.
I'm reminded of the tactical ploy in the US (and also to a lesser degree in Britain) of the spin masters to label the media as the 'liberal media' any time a story is printed that is injurious to the authorities.
Of course, the real and obvious facts are never examined, and indeed they are bypassed here too.
The media are both corporate entities and are owned by corporate entities. They consistantly push capitalist agendas. The Government and their opposition consistantly push capitalist agendas. Spats between these purveyors and pushers of capitalism are flagged as being liberal and leftist and ensure that the blamehounds remain a silenced group and ensure the continued existence of either capitalist mouthpiece.
John Martin and Eamonn de Paor have arrived on Indymedia to push this same tactic. Whilst they claim that those on the left are furthering the agenda of one of the Capitalist pushers (the Times), it is they, who without a shred of self consciousness, are pushing the agenda for both parties.
Proof of the pudding is in the eating, what alternative to John Martin and Eamonn de Paor envisage or offer to replace the media?
If I understand the original IPR posting correctly, it does not seem to propose that the issue is between the media on the one hand and the government on the other hand. Nor that the issue is particularly about whether either one of these two is more or less capitalist or globalist than the other. In fact, many aspects of globalist capitalism have the more or less enthusiastic consent of the majority of Irish people, whether we like it or not. (I don't particularly like it.)
As far as I understand it, the posting argues that the issue is between the Irish Times (and the various elements, many of them in the media, to which it gives leadership) on the one hand, and, on the other hand, Irish society as constituted by the independence movement. The point is made that the reference points, standards and objectives of the Irish Times are external to the society and generally quite hostile to it. That is why it is insistent that we must re-make ourselves. The "white nigger" episode described in one of the earlier postings exemplifies the problem, as does its Bertiegate campaign which attracts the interest of many people who would not subscribe to the actual and underhand objectives of the Irish Times.
Miriam, you seem to suspect the worst of our politicians and even the Irish people, who should "grow up" but The Irish Times is above suspicion.
I would be interested to know what you and others think of the attached file.
It is a copy of a letter from the British Ambassador to Ireland to a colleague in the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office describing a lunch he had with Major McDowell.
Major McDowell you will recall was the Chief Executive of The Irish Times from 1962 to 1997. He was Chairman of the Trust, the secretive institution which controls The Irish Times from 1974 to 2001 and he is currently honoured with the title President for Life of The Irish Times Group.
The letter was written in 1969 at a particularly tense time in Anglo-Irish relations as a result of events in Northern Ireland. This was when McDowell went running to the "mother country" England and asked for guidance as to how he would deal with his Editor who despite being a Protestant was behaving no better than a "white nigger" (i.e. like the native Irish).
Do you still think the Irish Times is just another capitalist media outlet?
1969 British Ambassador Letter 0.12 Mb