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British & Irish Governments Plan Ceremony in Croke Park

category dublin | history and heritage | news report author Tuesday February 20, 2007 11:34author by william Report this post to the editors

controversial game will be started by compromise gesture


Northern Ireland Minister Peter Hain has announced details of a joint ceremony before Ireland's crunch game against England in Croke Park on the 24th February.

The significance of the game is not lost on GAA followers and republicans who remember the infamous shooting of 14 players and supporters by the British Army on the 21st November 1921.
However according to GAA spokesman Ulick Magee a plan being devised by the GAA and the Northern Ireland office, will attempt to draw a line under the incident.

"We've spoken to the British government and they understand the significance of the event back in 1921. Back then 14 people were killed by British forces so in the spirit of the peace process and friendship we're proposing that we shoot 14 of their lot before the match. Then maybe have fireworks afterwards or something." Said Mr Magee.

Mel Gibson
Mel Gibson

Government Reaction

The plan has had a mixed reaction from Downing Street. Prime Minister Tony Blair thinks the idea has merit but said that it needs to be done properly and with dignity.
"Frankly I think its a small price to pay for progression in Anglo-Irish affairs, but I think the idea of getting Ray Houghton to do the shooting would be too much for many English fans to take particularly after his goal against us back in 1988. And he's Scottish which is worse."

Proposed Victims

According to informed sources, the GAA and Number 10 have already drawn up a list of names for those to be shot. The list, which is not yet agreed, is thought to be a compromise of people that both the Irish and English public dislike. Among the names are moaney-hole singer James Blunt, foul mouth idiot Jade Goody, Trinny & Suzannah, Man Utd donkey Rio Ferdinand, cream cake expert Vanessa Feltz, "comedian" Russell Brand and any of the blokes who do outside broadcasts for Sky News.

But discussions took an ironic twist when both sides agreed on shooting Belfast singer Brian Kennedy, but neither side agreed on what nationality he was. GAA representatives claim he's British with their Foreign Office counterparts claiming he's Irish. The Irish claimed no Irishman should sing or dance in such a manner and the English saying he couldn't be a Brit because he had no tattoos on his forearm and didn't wear Ben Sherman shirts. However there was eventual consensus that he should be shot regardless of his nationality.

Plans agreed

The shooting will be carried out my members of the 2nd Infantry Battalion from Cathal Brugha Barracks in Dublin. The original idea to get the FCA to carry out the executions were dropped when they revealed that their rifles are in fact made of hardened mala. Similarly the Garda Emergency Response Unit was discounted for fear they'd shoot more innocent civilians then claim overtime for it.

author by 1 year on from Love Ulster.publication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:15Report this post to the editors

Republican Sinn Féin has confirmed that it will be holding a protest at the England-Ireland rugby international on February 24 next.

Those wishing to protest at the playing of God Save the Queen (English national anthem) and the flying of the English flag in Croke Park whilst England continues to occupy part of Ireland should assemble at the junction of North Circular Road and Summerhill Parade near the Sunset House pub on Saturday, February 24 at 3.30pm.

author by Dubpublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:30Report this post to the editors

RSF what problem coudl you have with the Rugby Footabll Union of England? They are a sports body. The RFU never occupied Ireland or killed people in Ireland. Why protest against them? RSF are opposing them because they are English. That is a very backward way of viewing things. RSF think that all English people are to blame for British Imperialism. The reality is that the English people are also victims of their capitalist class. Irish working class people are natural allies with English, Scottish, Welsh, French, Chinese, Malay, Polish, etc. workign class people. If RSF got their way they would have a capitalist government and all that goes with it.

As a socialist "God Save the Queen" makes me sick no matter where it is played. I don't jerk off over some mythical nationalist past associated with Croke Park.

author by history readerpublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:34Report this post to the editors

you may not like it, but the history of croke park is not mythical

author by Ruripublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 13:00Report this post to the editors

But the history of RSF is most definitely mythical. I trust they won't ruin what should be an excellent day on saturday. The anthem of the visiting team will be played in croke park and a lot of ghosts will be laid to rest with it-end of story.

There's a British tourism exhibition on in croke park today btw

author by hankpublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 13:41Report this post to the editors

I think you can tell when people are unsure of themselves when they put in things like "end of story". The story is not, sadly, ended.

The British Government targeted the GAA throughout the conflict and killed its members, some of them in Croke Park.

Many GAA officials were of course victims of state-sponsored terror in recent years. Crimes remain unsolved; killers still draw their HM government salaries while families mourn.

Should the flag of the killers be flown in the national stadium without comment? Should Willie Fraser show up with his "love ulster" bigots should they be allowed to march down Clonliffe Road?

author by Jokerpublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 14:28Report this post to the editors

The GAA was targeted because the GAA was a breeding ground for republiciansim!
Those days have past, can we not just move on!

author by madianpublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 14:36Report this post to the editors

"Should the flag of the killers be flown over our national stadium"? I seem to remember a lot of English citizens being killed by "Irish freedom fighters" in Birmingham and Guilford for instance (Do you remember them? they do tend to be the forgotten victims). So why isn't there any such furore when the Irish flag is flown at Twickenham or the Irish national anthem is played? Oh yes that's right it's a RUGBY match!!!

author by Rugger buggerpublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 15:32Report this post to the editors

Hank

Croke Park is not a national stadium, it belongs to the GAA who can do with it what they want - in this case, they've rented it to the IRFU, in the full knowledge GSTQ would be played there so what business is it of yours?

Would you have the same problems if Wales or Scotland were playing?

This RSF protest is a publicity stunt which will doubtless attract the same type of braindead scumbag as the Love Ulster shindig last year.

author by Belfastpublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 15:43Report this post to the editors

Irish goverment armed forces did not enter Twickenham and open fire on unarmed men women and children irrespective of political belief . Nor would they.

I think its a travesty and it will be a very very sad and shameful day for the GAA , there will be a few people turning in their graves.

author by madianpublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 16:14Report this post to the editors

I don't get your point. I wasn't saying anybody entered Twickenham or killed anyone. What did happen was Irish republicans blew up a large number of civilians while they were having a night out. You must be so very very proud of that part of our shared history. And please don't go down the line of "But this happened first, and what about that" Yes we all know the only victims are the Irish, and nobody else's dead mean anything.

author by Jerry Corneliuspublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 16:31Report this post to the editors

"don't get your point. I wasn't saying anybody entered Twickenham or killed anyone. "

But you seem to be unprepared to acknowledge the atrocity carried out by the English in Croke Park: the crowd were fired on and players were also murdered.

"What did happen was Irish republicans blew up a large number of civilians while they were having a night out. "

Its always wrong to target civilians. But that has never stopped the English either in their Imperial past or their post imperial present in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"You must be so very very proud of that part of our shared history. "

The balance of terror lies on the English side by about 800 years.

"And please don't go down the line of "But this happened first, and what about that" Yes we all know the only victims are the Irish, and nobody else's dead mean anything"

I would never say such a thing. I remember the Cypriot, Kenyan, Yemenese, Indian, Zulu, Burmese, Egyptian, Sri lankan, Afghan, Tibetan, Sudanese and Maori dead. Rivers of bloof have flowed so that God Save The Queen/King could be played around the world.

author by FFSpublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 17:07Report this post to the editors

The real issue here is when the English (British?) decide that their present anthem is obsolete. Surely the time has come to drop the royals. How about using a tune like "The White cliffs of Dover"? Surely that would be more meaningful for the English (British?) for a pre-Bannockburn song that goes on about trampling the Scots.
It might even have a resonance among many Irish people.

author by casement fanpublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 18:41Report this post to the editors

The game on saturday may well be the first anyone outside ireland has heard of the killings at Croker. I think a much bigger problem than hearing the strains of GSQ is the appalling Irelands Call (AKA Irelands Small) echoing around the ground, the actual beating heart of irishness. The place is called after a priest right?

Its a real pity indymedia didnt exist when the US Navy played the US army in american football at the same ground years ago. Militant memorialists of the balance of terror thesis werent soiling their nappies back then. Really folks, if the legions of underage coaches and club secretaries and various delegates voted to overturn the ban, and most of them werent actually thinking primarily about the money, then its time to move on and sway to swing low. Its definitely better than seeing the green worn on the pitch in South Africa which is what the IRFU used to be most famous for.

author by patrique - nonepublication date Tue Feb 20, 2007 21:49Report this post to the editors

Nice one Casement fan. Republican Sinn Fein represent about 7 people in Ireland, so should be ignored. 1920 has nothing to do with this saturday, if you really want to do something, stop trading with Britain or something useful, instead of a lot of nonsense about a song and a piece of material.

author by Red Jedpublication date Wed Feb 21, 2007 02:03Report this post to the editors

"RSF what problem coudl you have with the Rugby Footabll Union of England?"
Simple. Its called being a bigot. What you do is continue to live in the past and blame people in the present day for events which happened in the past, the further back the better (Oh that Cromwell. Look what he did to the Irish Rebels. I'm never going near a Tescos again).

Then every time the word "England" is mentioned you tut and mutter curses under your breath. And when you see a Union Jack you have to start banging on about how the poor oppressed people of the North are still living under the iron jack-boot of the evil British regime who forces them to take jobs, pay taxes, endure free health care, suffer the indignity of a free education and are generally much worse off than they would be if they were living in dear old Eire (at this point you go misty eyed and start singing Kevin Barry). And when the fact that an British flag will be flown on Irish soil is even hinted at you go berserk, foam at the mouth, ring all your friends and shout down the phone about the Black and Tans, the Easter Rising and how this would never have happened if Mick Collins or Dev were still alive.

Now you might mistakenly think that this would become less of an issue when it came to sport, but actually you're wrong. Bigotry is generic and must be applied to everything so anything to do with the British, especially the English is untouchable and should be shunned (exception: you live in the North and benefit from the likes of the dole, free health care, DLA, etc, in which case you take these but its ok to do so cos you're actually trying to bring them down from within by taking their money).

So the reason the English (hochhhh puthhhh) are wrong to play Rugby in Ireland is:

1) Because they killed 14 people nearly a century ago
2) Cromwell
3) The poor oppressed people of the North
4) Gerry adams is friends with the English now and is Ian Paisley's best mate
5) We don't want them foreigners comin in here....taking our jobs, taking our weeman, taking our beer
6) We would rather live in the past and see our country in turmoil rather than have it prosper. After all our pride and intollerance is so much more important thanseeing our children have a better life than we did
7) The liklihood that the England Rugby team are infact infiltrators who have come to gather intelligence so that England can invade and turn us all into potato farming slaves

Simple, good old fashioned, Irish bigoted logic.

author by current affairspublication date Wed Feb 21, 2007 09:55Report this post to the editors

it's happening now. read the police ombudsman's report. British murder policy in Ireland is ongoing.

author by Ger - NApublication date Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:51Report this post to the editors

Ombudsman report? Yeah I am sure Phil Vickery and the lads have alot to with that. Get over yourself there is a reason why RSF has no support!

author by Jerry Corneliuspublication date Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:28Report this post to the editors

"Simple. Its called being a bigot. "

Opposing the playing of an imperial anthem and the flying of an imperial flag is not bigotry.

"What you do is continue to live in the past and blame people in the present day for events which happened in the past, the further back the better"

The English Intelligence Services bombed Dublin in 1974, thats not so long ago.

"(Oh that Cromwell. Look what he did to the Irish Rebels. I'm never going near a Tescos again)."

That sentence is so stupid, it says more about you than the people you are trying to mock.

"Then every time the word "England" is mentioned you tut and mutter curses under your breath."

I guess you gratefully tug your forelock whenever you hear it mentioned.

"And when you see a Union Jack you have to start banging on about how the poor oppressed people of the North are still living under the iron jack-boot of the evil British regime"

What effect does the Triclour have on you? or the Starry Plough for that matter?

"who forces them to take jobs,"

If you care to check you will see that Catholics still suffer a higher unemployment rate in the north. But i'm sure you'll say thats because they are feckless.

"pay taxes, "

Dont get your point.

"endure free health care,"

Its not free its paid for through tax. The NHS is a basketcase.

"suffer the indignity of a free education "

Last time I checked thats available throughout these islands.

"And when the fact that an British flag will be flown on Irish soil is even hinted at you go berserk, foam at the mouth,"

You are the one whois upset about this. Look at the rambling nature of your comment.

" Bigotry is generic and must be applied to everything so anything to do with the British,"

The only bigotry I see around is that expressed by you and your fellow forelock tuggers. You sneer at those who dont want the Union Jack back.

"especially the English is untouchable and should be shunned"

Just the english Establishment, though I am sure that you would detest the English working class. You wont find many of them at Croke Park, they prefer Rugby League.

"(exception: you live in the North and benefit from the likes of the dole, free health care, DLA, etc, in which case you take these but its ok to do so cos you're actually trying to bring them down from within by taking their money)."

Repeating yourself. Dealt with above.

The rest of your rant is too pitiful to respond to.

author by Nicholaspublication date Wed Feb 21, 2007 17:02Report this post to the editors

I wish RSF and those like-minded would get over themselves. It's a piece of music. The German National Anthem has been sung in Poland without problems and far closer to far more brutal events.

Meanwhile there is a British warship docked in Cork. Yes that's right: a real warship that is probably involved in murder and mayhem throughout the world on a regular basis. And all you care about is a bloody song. Replace your protest with a protest down in Cork - it might get those who are really struggling against British (and other) imperialism a little publicity.

author by R. Isiblepublication date Wed Feb 21, 2007 17:20Report this post to the editors

The German National Anthem has been sung in Poland without problems
But not the first stanza. It's not uncommon at all for people to make adjustments to their behaviour in order to avoid giving offence and the example that you use supports that. In fact the whole thing was briefly banned due to its co-option by unsavoury elements, even though it was the Weimar Republic that adopted it.

Related Link: http://ingeb.org/Lieder/deutschl.html
author by Jerry Corneliuspublication date Wed Feb 21, 2007 17:27Report this post to the editors

" wish RSF and those like-minded would get over themselves. It's a piece of music. "

Its more than that, it celebrates the imperial past and the continuing imperial adventures of England.

"The German National Anthem has been sung in Poland without problems and far closer to far more brutal events."

But that does not have direct associations with the nazis. It would be a bit different if the Horst Wessel Lied were played.

"Meanwhile there is a British warship docked in Cork. "

Yes. If you look you will see articles about it on this site.

"Yes that's right: a real warship that is probably involved in murder and mayhem throughout the world on a regular basis."

Have you read any of the comments above?

"And all you care about is a bloody song."

A bit more than that actually. I can only suggest that you read what is actually written on this thread.

"Replace your protest with a protest down in Cork - it might get those who are really struggling against British (and other) imperialism a little publicity."

There are protests against the warship in Cork. You will find that those who are protesting at Croke park also oppose the visit by the Deathship. Some of the people in favour of GSTQ being sung (not you) would actually welcome the deathship.

author by Ypublication date Thu Feb 22, 2007 02:36Report this post to the editors

Wow, the war for independence is over, the modern troubles are now considered over and both Ireland and Britain are considered vibrant modern countries. And yet there still is this stupid element in this Island that for some reason can't just let a sport be played without causing a fuss.

Bloody Sunday was almost 100 years ago and your damn right, 14 people were killed wrongly by the british army. And guess what British Army were also killed around this period along with more Irish people. It was a war and it is now over.

And with Rugby being played in Croke Park. I fully support it. Yes there was a tradition of no british sports being played in it and yes I can understand it. But it is time to move on. We have a magnificent stadium that is not been used to its full potential and im happy now and proud to see it being used.

And with this protest thats being held, what are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to prevent QSTQ being played? Are you trying to prevent the game going ahead? Are you somehow trying to achieve a United Ireland by protesting at this? What?

And im sure there will be booing when QSTQ is played, its part of the rivalry. But when your having your protest and you look around and see that 99.99999% of the people don't give a damn what your protesting over, what are you going to think then?

author by Paraicpublication date Thu Feb 22, 2007 03:52Report this post to the editors

The Croke Park Massacre was just that - a massacre of 14 innocent civilians including 3 children. It was a deliberate act of massacre by British Crown Forces under their Commander in Chief the British Monarch whose anthem was and is today the same, to be played at Croke Park, scene of the Massacre of the Innocents by the above, for which no apology has every been delivered by H.M.G.

Methinks you deliberately understate it.

Regarding support for the protest, Irish radio phone- ins are showing 20 per cent support, more than the Irish Labour Party has, for instance, and almost as much as Fine Gael has !

And a Heck of a lot more support than the I'R.F.U. has !

You'll see this on Saturday for yourself.

author by Englishgeoffpublication date Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:37author email geoff.rowlands at yahoo dot co dot ukReport this post to the editors

I am an English rugby fan who loves the game. I just got back from a break in Dublin and enjoyed a wonderful tour of Croke park. I feel that the game should go ahead with great peace and the true full spirit of Rugby. it could make for one of the greatest matches i have ever witnessed. However, i always believe in being the bigger man and apologising for my actions. I think there should be a moment of public apology to the irish people for the massacre of innocent civillians, that was not an act of war, that was down and out Murder.

Lets have a public apology ,and who knows what may come of that, we as the English nation at least owe that to our neighbours and pray that this match can bring a friendship between the two nations.

author by Ypublication date Thu Feb 22, 2007 13:34Report this post to the editors

Im not understating anything. Your right, it was a massacre. 14 people died that shouldn't have. But it was almost 100 years ago and in case you haven't noticed both countries have moved on. Do you not think so or do you still see Britain as trying to oppress us?

"Regarding support for the protest, Irish radio phone- ins are showing 20 per cent support, more than the Irish Labour Party has, for instance, and almost as much as Fine Gael has !"

What the hell are you basing this on? 20% of the population, 20% of people who are going to the game or 20% of the people who bothered to phone in. Either way it is pretty low and I don't think you can compare it to the popularity of the Labour party or Fine Gael. The people most likely to phone in by the way are people who would have a problem and if they only tally 20%, well then i think support for the protest is quite low.

And by the way, the monarch is not the Commander-in-chief of the British Forces.

Anyway, I really hope that people who are going for the love of the game aren't prevented from attending because of a small group of people who couldn't give a damn and just want to display their outdated political views.

author by English Geoffpublication date Thu Feb 22, 2007 14:30Report this post to the editors

you cannot put a time limit on acts like this.

What happens when 100 years has passed since Hitler and the Jewish massacres. Things like this should be laid to rest i do agree, but they should be laid to rest with the most appropriate form of honour and dignity, and to me this game gives us such an occasion. It is not about the irish still being oppressed or not, it is about a nation owning up to their dreadful past, not only to the irish, but everyone else this tiny island thought they could bully at the time.

author by Paraicpublication date Thu Feb 22, 2007 16:15Report this post to the editors

By the way, "Y" , you display your ignorance, the monarch, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth 11 is the Commander -in-Chief of all British Armed Forces.

All Commissions in the British Armed Forces by all Officers, including the G.O.C., C.O.S, all Generals, Admirals etc etc., are held from her, all enlisted men/women must attest on enlistment in her name, and "take the Queen's shilling", plus swear an Oath to H.M.

Similarly our President H.E. Mary McAleese is Commander in Chief of the PDF, Irish Defence Forces (who BTW stole the title "Oglaigh na h-Eireann" from the IRA !).

A televised apology by Her Majesty, Elizabeth 11, Queen of England, as C-in-C British Armed Forces for the Croke Park Massacre would indeed be most welcome, and, yes, would close that particular British Murder File.

BTW, Protest against GSTQ is running at 20 per cent, actual disagreement with the entire affair is running a lot higher, a lot higher here in the Provinces than in Dublin.

Like the Wise Old Indian scout, just put your ear to the ground - and you can hear the cavalry coming !

author by Ypublication date Thu Feb 22, 2007 17:16Report this post to the editors

Ok Paraic,
I'll give you that one. The Queen is Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, a title I didn't think was given to her. However its a title, and she has no proper control over them and thus the PM is in command through the parliment. But im sure you already know that.

I will get you on one thing, the Royal Navy have never had to take the oath. Only the Army and the RAF have to take it and I know right well that all enlisted personnel in both these forces have to take it.

I never said anything about getting an apology from the British Government and I do agree with both you and English Geoff that an apology would be welcomed and would be an important gesture. But I don't think its absolutely necessary. I think most people just want to move on from the past because if you don't, where do you stop. How far back to need to get apologies from.

And to turn around and say that the Defence Forces stole the title "Oglaigh na h-Eireann" from the IRA tells me enough. It was a continuation of the use of the term by the legitamate military of Ireland. Its just a pity that some illegitamate groups stole its use afterwards and tarnished its name.

author by Dr Nickpublication date Thu Feb 22, 2007 17:27Report this post to the editors

'But discussions took an ironic twist when both sides agreed on shooting Belfast singer Brian Kennedy, but neither side agreed on what nationality he was. GAA representatives claim he's British with their Foreign Office counterparts claiming he's Irish. The Irish claimed no Irishman should sing or dance in such a manner and the English saying he couldn't be a Brit because he had no tattoos on his forearm and didn't wear Ben Sherman shirts. However there was eventual consensus that he should be shot regardless of his nationality'

Haha. Funniest thing ive ever read on indymedia.
God I cantt believe he represnted Ireland at the Eurovision.

As a london Irish born and bred and now living back home In Ireland Im really looking forward to the match on Saturday and have my hogan stand ticket at the ready!

Like pat Spillane said the only 'national' anthem I dont want to hear in Croke park is 'Irelands call'.

author by Paraicpublication date Thu Feb 22, 2007 18:05Report this post to the editors

What about substituting the All- Blacks Grunting, Roaring and Chest-Beating "anthem" for God Save the Queen" - it would be far more indicative of the Brit upper-class mentality !

In fact the Irish Defence Forces , the PDF, is incorrectly called "The Irish Army" as it only represents 26 counties of Ireland, so, they're not and never were entitled to the title "Oglaigh na h-Eireann".

The IRA, apart from historically legitimate claim, being the only 32-County All-Ireland Irish Army, are the only military force in Ireland entitled to that title of Oglaigh na h-Eireann, whether you like it or not.

BTW, Fianna Fail stole their party title from the volunteers of 1916, many of whom wore the legend "Fianna Fail" around their hats during the Easter Rising.

It could be argued that they have disgraced, and continue to disgrace, that heritage, selling off our gas at Rossport, our sacred heritage at Tara - and now making the motorway moguls into Super-Billionaires.

"Y" , I'll cede your point about the Royal Navy as I honest;y don't know.

Most average ordinary English people would agree with "English Geoff" about that apology, as would most Irish people too, so what's holding it up?

The intransigence and hatred of the Irish People (and their own working class) by the British and Anglo-Irish aristocracy, that's what !

author by Meehawlpublication date Thu Feb 22, 2007 20:17Report this post to the editors

The protest against the playing/singing of the British national anthem at Croke Park on Saturday will be huge - but peaceful.

It will be brilliantly stewarded, and marshalled to the last.

An apology from the British Government to the Irish People over the Croke Park Massacre of 1920 is expected from Northern Ireland Secretary Peter Hain who will attend the match.

It is believed that he will lay a wreath there to the memory of the Dead. On behalf of the British Government.

There will be no vio;ence at all - just the usual drunks later on after the match, who will be quickly picked up and banged up by the Gardai.

Personally, having no interest at all in Rugby, I am pleased that the game will not be used as an excuse for violence (I much prefer hurling and soccer anyway).

A Peaceful Day will bring the Dawn of a United Ireland much closer. Let's look forward to that.

(Thanks to Indymedia we are all here allowed to let off a bit of pre-match steam, and to take the heat out of the situation, thanks everyone).

author by Meehawlpublication date Fri Feb 23, 2007 00:03Report this post to the editors

Peaceful, Saturday in Dublin, with the Druids joining in to Save Tara, now promises to be more like a St. Patrick's Day Parade !

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/81114&comment_limit=0&c...84458

author by doltpublication date Fri Feb 23, 2007 08:57Report this post to the editors

it may be an idea to have independent legal observors.
little legal cards.
digital.

Then the rest of us can get on with the real work- enjoy the day.
suppressed violence will always out- ask Mc Dowell.

author by Red Jedpublication date Sat Feb 24, 2007 18:23Report this post to the editors

My Dear Wee Jerry Corny

In response to your rant at my rant. Please allow me to reciprocate.

“Opposing the playing of an imperial anthem and the flying of on imperial flag is not bigotry”
When its done in the context of a sporting event, it is. If the shoe was on the other foot and Ireland where playing in England then not a word would be said. And if it were then the people who would kick up about it would be equally deserving as contempt as the ones ranting on about the Rugby in Dublin. So presumably you would feel the same way if the American, French, Spanish or Portuguese flags were flown in Dublin then? After all, these countries are/have been imperialist. Or do you just have a problem with the Brits?

”The English Intelligence Services bombed Dublin in 1974, thats not so long ago.”
33 years ago. Longer than my children have been alive. Should they still be forced to edure religious or national hatred and intollerance for things that happened before they were born? What time-scale would you suggest then as the cut off point to put the past behind us and move on? 1940? Oh those Germans! We don’t want them in our country because of what they did during the second world war? The 1950s then? 1960? 1974 so you can still have a legitimate excuse to vent your hatred on the English?

”That sentence is so stupid, it says more about you than the people you are trying to mock.”
Yep. I like to take the piss out morons who can’t see the wood for the trees which were cut down hundreds of years ago.

”I guess you gratefully tug your forelock whenever you hear it mentioned.”
LMAO. An assumption on your part, the nature of which drips pure ignorance. And a wrong one. I am not, as you brand me, a “forelock tugger”. Some of us are able to think outside the box (the result of my Imperialist funded education perhaps).

”What effect does the Triclour have on you?”
The same effect that is has on any other Irishman. It’s the flag of my country.

”If you care to check you will see that Catholics still suffer a higher unemployment rate in the north. But i'm sure you'll say thats because they are feckless.”
December’s figures from the Equality comission estimate that Protestants make up 57% and Roman Catholics 43%. Hardly a massive void. Please. Don’t try and play the poor oppressed Catholic workers and wannabe-workers card. Twenty years ago you would have been border line. Today you’re just clutching at non-existant straws.

“Dont get your point.”
Yeah. You probably get that a lot.

”Its not free its paid for through tax.”
Oh right. So all these poor unemployed Catholics you mentioned do at least see some benefits from those evil Protestant people who work.

“The NHS is a basketcase.”
Ahhh. You both have something in common.

”Last time I checked thats available throughout these islands.”
Yep. Surprised you didn’t start banging on about how Protestant kids have better schools and bla bla bla than the poor oppressed Catholic kids.

”You are the one whois upset about this. Look at the rambling nature of your comment.”
LMAO. Think if you study the context of my comment again you might just see that its designed to take the piss out of people like yourself who can’t let go and move on (but hey I‘ll leave it open to your interpretation).

”The only bigotry I see around is that expressed by you and your fellow forelock tuggers.”
In itself a bigoted remark. Talk about jumping feet first into your own trap! The second time you’ve used it. And as I already stated, I’m not a “forelock tugger” and some of us can actually think beyond Bloody Sunday and the Easter Rising.

“You sneer at those who dont want the Union Jack back.”
No. I sneer at those who have to bring history, religion and politics into absolutely everything that goes on around them, be they Republican, Unionist, Nationalist or Harri Krishna.

”Just the english Establishment, though I am sure that you would detest the English working class. You wont find many of them at Croke Park, they prefer Rugby League.”
Well I actually base my opinions on an individual basis. I don’t see the logic in branding a particular set or sub-set of people because of the actions of some of their peers. Well, ok. I DO detest bigots. But bigots as a whole.

"Repeating yourself. Dealt with above."
No I'm not. My point is that a great number of hypoctites exist in the North who rant on about Brits out, Evil English Imperalism, etc but still quite happily take the money and any other benefits from them.

”The rest of your rant is too pitiful to respond to.”
Oh dear. And I was SO looking forward to convening further with you. Still, I guess you need all your spare time to prepare for any more sporting or cultural events where we may be forced to endure Imperialist Countries in our poor, pure wee country.

In the words of the English upper-class (hochhhhhhhhhh putttthhh) - toodle-pip old chap!

author by Jerry Corneliuspublication date Sat Feb 24, 2007 18:58Report this post to the editors

"“Opposing the playing of an imperial anthem and the flying of on imperial flag is not bigotry”
When its done in the context of a sporting event, it is. "

So opposing Aphartheid era South Africa playing in Ireland was bigotry? You make no sense.

" So presumably you would feel the same way if the American, French, Spanish or Portuguese flags were flown in Dublin then? After all, these countries are/have been imperialist. Or do you just have a problem with the Brits?"

Those countries never occupied Ireland. Nor did they massacre civilians in Croke Park. I have a problem with the British Establishment who arer in denial about both their past and present relationship with this country. I join Working Class Welsh, Scottish and English activists in their opposition to that Establishment.

"”The English Intelligence Services bombed Dublin in 1974, thats not so long ago.”
33 years ago. Longer than my children have been alive. "

Do you read the papers? Watch TV? You may have read of more recent collaboration where both Protestants and Catholics were killed through British collaboration with the UVF.

"Should they still be forced to edure religious or national hatred and intollerance for things that happened before they were born? "

Do you think they should be ignorant of the fact that the British were carrying out dirty ops? How is uncovering that causing religious or national hatred?

" 1974 so you can still have a legitimate excuse to vent your hatred on the English?"

I have no hatred of the Englisg but you seem to be a self hating Irishman, maybe you would like us to apologise for killing the British military spies on Bloody Sunday morning?

"”That sentence is so stupid, it says more about you than the people you are trying to mock.”
Yep. I like to take the piss out morons who can’t see the wood for the trees which were cut down hundreds of years ago."
Simple abuse. It shows you are incapable of formulating a rational answer.

"”What effect does the Triclour have on you?”
The same effect that is has on any other Irishman. It’s the flag of my country."
Interesting. I'd like to get rid of all flags. But I have a particular hatred of the butchers apron.

”“Dont get your point.”
Yeah. You probably get that a lot."
Again using abuse to cover up for your lack of an argument.

"”Its not free its paid for through tax.”
Oh right. So all these poor unemployed Catholics you mentioned do at least see some benefits from those evil Protestant people who work."
Just silliness again from you. But your hatred towards Catholics is quite obvious.

"“The NHS is a basketcase.”
Ahhh. You both have something in common."
Half of the time you devastate me with your wit.

”"Last time I checked thats available throughout these islands.”
Yep. Surprised you didn’t start banging on about how Protestant kids have better schools and bla bla bla than the poor oppressed Catholic kids."
Now I have you on the ropes. You resort to silliness again.

"”You are the one whois upset about this. Look at the rambling nature of your comment.”
LMAO. Think if you study the context of my comment again you might just see that its designed to take the piss out of people like yourself who can’t let go and move on (but hey I‘ll leave it open to your interpretation)."

You cannot conceive that anyone who disagrees with you might have a valid point. I suppose you think the Jews should forget the Holocaust and move on as well.

"”The only bigotry I see around is that expressed by you and your fellow forelock tuggers.”
In itself a bigoted remark. "

Its not. Some Irish people kowtow to Britain and want to be back with the Queen. Calling them forelock tuggers is imho valid.

"“You sneer at those who dont want the Union Jack back.”
No. I sneer at those who have to bring history, religion and politics into absolutely everything that goes on around them, be they Republican, Unionist, Nationalist or Harri Krishna."
You brought history and politics into it. You want to ignore the British massacres carried out in Ireland, not just in 1920 but only a few years ago.

"”Just the english Establishment, though I am sure that you would detest the English working class. You wont find many of them at Croke Park, they prefer Rugby League.”
Well I actually base my opinions on an individual basis. I don’t see the logic in branding a particular set or sub-set of people because of the actions of some of their peers. Well, ok. I DO detest bigots. But bigots as a whole. "

I guess you hate yourself then. You dont seem to like the English Working class either.

""Repeating yourself. Dealt with above."
No I'm not. My point is that a great number of hypoctites exist in the North who rant on about Brits out, Evil English Imperalism, etc but still quite happily take the money and any other benefits from them. "

So they shouldnt take benefits they are entitled to? Plenty of West Brits in the South who get a lot from the state.

"In the words of the English upper-class (hochhhhhhhhhh putttthhh) - toodle-pip old chap!"

In the words of the International Working Class:

Our Demands Indeed Most Modest Are: We Only Want The Earth!

author by Red Jed - DAWCpublication date Mon Feb 26, 2007 20:00Report this post to the editors

Ach Jeery. I see you made it back from the match ok then. Good man! Were you one of the ones outside with the placards?

“So opposing Aphartheid era South Africa playing in Ireland was bigotry?”
If what’s happening in Northern Ireland now with the British was on a par with what happened in apartheid era South Africa then no one would engage in any sporting or cultural event with them. The fact that the Irish people did show respect to the England team at the weekend proves just how out of context your point is.

”Those countries never occupied Ireland. Nor did they massacre civilians in Croke Park. I have a problem with the British Establishment who arer in denial about both their past and present relationship with this country. I join Working Class Welsh, Scottish and English activists in their opposition to that Establishment.”
Fine and no problem with that. How many players on the England rugby team were responsible for that? What should we do next? Harass English tourists as they walk around Dublin city centre and tell them they are not wanted because of what their government did in the past? I fail to see how the general populace denying respect to a time-honoured sporting tradition will in any way further this cause ad cause anything other than animosity and a national embarrassment.

”Do you read the papers? Watch TV? You may have read of more recent collaboration where both Protestants and Catholics were killed through British collaboration with the UVF.”
Old news brought to light recently. And nothing we didn’t already know. RUC/UDR collusion has been known about for years, as were the black-ops employed by the British government. If we are to allow murders and criminals who committed atrocities against their own countrymen out of prison early as a way of moving peace forward then you have to apply it globally, no matter how bitter a pill it is to swallow.

”Do you think they should be ignorant of the fact that the British were carrying out dirty ops? How is uncovering that causing religious or national hatred?”
The track-record of the British government, the RUC and UDR/RIR are well known. I fail to see how causing a ruckus at a sporting event can in any way make people more aware of what is already known. And if you don’t see how wanting to deny a foreign country the right to fly its flag and play its national anthem at a sporting event looks like anything other than hatred then you’re even more naive than I already take you for. All this does is cause bad feeling and put peoples backs up.

”I have no hatred of the Englisg”
You do a good impression of someone who does.

“but you seem to be a self hating Irishman, maybe you would like us to apologise for killing the British military spies on Bloody Sunday morning?”
No, I expect my countrymen and comrades who did what they did for their country (exception: the SCUM who merely used it as an excuse to further their own ends and had no interest in freedom or equality ) to accept that the war is over, what’s done is done and to work democratically and peacefully to bring about rebuilding and eventually reunification of our island.

”Simple abuse. It shows you are incapable of formulating a rational answer.”
Arse biscuits!

”Interesting. I'd like to get rid of all flags.”
Well I won’t argue with you on that point. Flags, like religion, when in the hands of idiots cause more harm then they cause good.

”Again using abuse to cover up for your lack of an argument.”
I prefer to think of it as complimenting my argument :o)

”Just silliness again from you. But your hatred towards Catholics is quite obvious.”
LMAO. I hate my own family, a lot of my friends and myself? Sureeeee. Now who’s not making any sense? You just can’t handle the fact that another Irishman is prepared to accept the English into the country and tolerate their National artefacts. Boy there was a lot of Catholic haters at the match on Saturday.

”Half of the time you devastate me with your wit.”
Ah c’mon. You did leave the door open for that one.

”Now I have you on the ropes.”
Why is it when people are dwindling they try to pad their arguments out with statements like this? Are you trying to convince yourself or others? If the points you are making are not enough to do this then saying it aloud is hardly going to do it.

”You cannot conceive that anyone who disagrees with you might have a valid point. I suppose you think the Jews should forget the Holocaust and move on as well.”
Yes I can. As long as they put it rationally and not in a way that shows up the nation, like the idiots in and around the match who were obviously more interested in venting their hatred then they were in peace, justice or anything remotely decent. In essence, rent-a-mob. The Jews HAVE moved on. You don’t see them spitting out the dummy every time the German national anthem is played at a sporting event. And the sane ones certainly don’t hold the current day German populace accountable for the actions of the National-socialists.

”Its not. Some Irish people kowtow to Britain and want to be back with the Queen. Calling them forelock tuggers is imho valid.”
I’m sure Protestants who use the term “Fenian” and Catholics who use the word “Jaffa” would use the same argument.

”You brought history and politics into it. You want to ignore the British massacres carried out in Ireland, not just in 1920 but only a few years ago.”
I think you’ll find that the initial story brought history and politics into this, as did most of the subsequent comments. And for not one second am I saying the we forget what has happened in the past, to forget our fallen nor to refrain from offering thanks to those who got us to where we are today. What I am saying is that we need to MOVE ON, leave our hatred, out malice and our conflict behind so that future generations do not end up going through the same crap as we had to.

”I guess you hate yourself then. “
You’re clutching at straws now.

“You dont seem to like the English Working class either.”
Like I said. I don’t judge the whole by the actions of the few. And I thought you had nothing against them? The word “either” in your comment would suggest otherwise.

”So they shouldnt take benefits they are entitled to?”
Hard working people put them there with their taxes, so yes they should take them. But spare us the hypocritical “bring the establishment down from within” shite that some of them have had the audacity to use in the past.

“Plenty of West Brits in the South who get a lot from the state. “
Care to quantify what you mean by that expression? What exactly is a “west Brit”?

”Our Demands Indeed Most Modest Are: We Only Want The Earth!”
Well you’ll have to fight the meek for it cos according to the bible they will inherit it.

See ya Jerry!

author by Jerry Corneliuspublication date Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:08Report this post to the editors

"Ach Jeery. I see you made it back from the match ok then. Good man! Were you one of the ones outside with the placards?"

Not at all! I was in Buswells watching it there. I think their protest is legitimate. I never said I was supporting it.

"If what’s happening in Northern Ireland now with the British was on a par with what happened in apartheid era South Africa then no one would engage in any sporting or cultural event with them. "

Not now but up intil a sort time ago, in part of the UK, catholics were second class citizens. This was ignored by both Labour and Conservative governments.

" What should we do next? Harass English tourists as they walk around Dublin city centre and tell them they are not wanted because of what their government did in the past? "

Totally ridiclious, no rational person would surmise that I was suggesting such a thing.
.
" RUC/UDR collusion has been known about for years, as were the black-ops employed by the British government. If we are to allow murders and criminals who committed atrocities against their own countrymen out of prison early as a way of moving peace forward then you have to apply it globally, no matter how bitter a pill it is to swallow."

Agreed. but those securocrats should serve at least 2 years as is provided for under the agreement. The Dublin/Monaghan investigation looks as if it is finally closing in on those responsible.

"”I have no hatred of the Englisg”
You do a good impression of someone who does.""

Thats an assertion. I dont see any evidence to back it up. The only English I hate are the ruling class.

”"Simple abuse. It shows you are incapable of formulating a rational answer.”
Arse biscuits!"

How old are you? Is that your idea of a rational response? Why descend into this every so often?

"”Interesting. I'd like to get rid of all flags.”
Well I won’t argue with you on that point. Flags, like religion, when in the hands of idiots cause more harm then they cause good."

Thats the second thing we agree on!

”"Again using abuse to cover up for your lack of an argument.”
I prefer to think of it as complimenting my argument :o)"

The use of abuse might win over the feeble-minded but hardly anyone else

"”Half of the time you devastate me with your wit.”
Ah c’mon. You did leave the door open for that one. "

Eh, no. You are the one who seems to be operating on 50% of the cylinders. Otherwise you wouldn't occasionaly drop into silliness.

"”Now I have you on the ropes.”
Why is it when people are dwindling they try to pad their arguments out with statements like this? Are you trying to convince yourself or others? If the points you are making are not enough to do this then saying it aloud is hardly going to do it."

I suggested that I had you on the ropes because you were descending into silly abuse again. no padding old bean.

"”You cannot conceive that anyone who disagrees with you might have a valid point. I suppose you think the Jews should forget the Holocaust and move on as well.”
Yes I can. As long as they put it rationally and not in a way that shows up the nation, like the idiots in and around the match who were obviously more interested in venting their hatred then they were in peace, justice or anything remotely decent. In essence, rent-a-mob. "

But there you go again. I'm not even saying that the protet was a good idea, just that in the context , they had a right to protest and that it was a legitimate protest. Who are you to say those people arent decent? Is it because they were mostly working class and from the inner city?

"”Its not. Some Irish people kowtow to Britain and want to be back with the Queen. Calling them forelock tuggers is imho valid.”
I’m sure Protestants who use the term “Fenian” and Catholics who use the word “Jaffa” would use the same argument."

Nope. I am referring to the Southern west brits whose cultural home is england.

””I guess you hate yourself then. “
You’re clutching at straws now."

No. You have displayed a fair amouint of seld hatred. The willingness to forget all of Englands crimes and the ability to curse the Irish who will not.

“"You dont seem to like the English Working class either.”
Like I said. I don’t judge the whole by the actions of the few. And I thought you had nothing against them? The word “either” in your comment would suggest otherwise."

No, actually, I was pointing out that you seem to have a dislike for the English working class as well as the Irish working class and any republicans.

“"Plenty of West Brits in the South who get a lot from the state. “
Care to quantify what you mean by that expression? What exactly is a “west Brit”? "

Someone whose cultural home is in England, who longs for a return of the english monarchy to Ireland.

”"Our Demands Indeed Most Modest Are: We Only Want The Earth!”
Well you’ll have to fight the meek for it cos according to the bible they will inherit it."

Eh, no. You and your West Brit friends in the ruling class arent that meek.

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