British and alas Irish Denial about Collusion

by Jack Russell - Social Justice and Inclusion Sun Jan 28, 2007 00:20

Will Sinn Fein sell Policing...........

by Barry - 32 csm Sun Jan 28, 2007 02:06

Ill start this post by reminding people that after the secret Baldonnel summit in 1974 both the Northern and Southern Special Branch departments that targetted republican insurgents adopted the very same same name - C3 .

There is no doubt whatsoever now that collusion was British policy in Ireland . Therefore as it was British government policy, tinkering with the old RUC structures will make damn all difference to the potential for collusion in terrorism and mass murder while the architects of the policy , Whitehall , MI5 and Downing street continue to rule in Ireland . Theyve merely changed strategy for the time being . In fact it could be validly argued that the success of their long term collusion policy has allowed them to change tactics , having aheived their long stated counter insurgency aims of Ulsterisation , Normalisation and criminalisation of republican insurgents . As Gusty Spence himself pointed out as he announced the loyalist ceasefire - the union is now safe .
Lets be clear on this . The British did not adopt a policy of collusion in terrorist mass murder for 30 years out of badness or a hatred for catholics. They did it for no other reason than to acheive a clear political objective . It now appears theyve successfully acheived that objective .
The partition of Ireland and Britains wilful violation of Irish national sovereignty is a criminal act under international law , it is illegal . Why anyone would regard the use of illegal criminal methods to commit a crime is a mystery to me .
The architects of collusion in MI5 are currently completing their brand new and quite massive headquarters facility outside Bangor in Co Down . The British governemnt have supplied them with massive resources in personnel , expertise , finance and equipment . The PSNI will be going after the people the British intelligence services tell them to go after , just like Haddocks gang and others went after people the British intelligence sevices and Special branch told them to go after . The PSNIs counter insurgency role will be nothing less than MI5s enforcers . And that means enforcing a crime against the Irish nation . Provisional Sinn Fein look doomed to play their part in the activities of these criminals directed against that Irish nation . Provisional Sinn Fein will not be endorsing civic policing but a crime against their own nation . They will be colluding in criminality . They will be acting as renegades and criminals against their own nation . They will be prepared to enage in open armed conflict against those sctions of the Irish people who oppose the criminal violation of their national sovereignty by a foreign colonial power . A crime under international law . Renegades and criminals will never gain the trust and respect of the Irish people . The illegal foreign laws they will seek to impose and enforce at the point of a British Heckler and Koch sub machine gun will still be foreign illegal law and a crime directed against the Irish nation whether their Ard Feis edorses it or not . Peace and justice cannot be built upon a crime against an entire nation . And collusion was just a means by whuich to commit that crime .

And they sadly wont be the first nationalist party to do so . The confirmation of collusion as British policy points an accusing finger at the state forces in the south and successive southern administrations , including thie current one . "loyalist" gangs , comprised mostly of RUC officers and British soldiers, murdered many people south of the border . It appears they were working for RUC special branch and the British military the entire time . RUC special branch and MI5 did not just receive assistance from Gardaí special branch , they were virtually put in charge of southern security in Baldonnel airport in 1974 . The British assumed this dominant role in the souths security apparatus after bombing the Cosgrave governemnt into submission with a series of no warning car bomb attacks in Dublin that murdered dozens and maimed 100s. Prior to that theyd bombed the Lynch administration into introducing the draconian security measures they wanted used against insurgents .They continued to murder Irish citizens north and south , and the gardaí were busily helping the architects of these murderous events the entire time . They still do . Its no surprise to see files into mass murder disappear in their entirety from the Department of Justice , Garda Headquarters , Monaghan , Dundalk and Castleblaney garda stations ever since the Barron report began examining thse incidents . That is a crime , that is collusion by the gardaí, perverting the course of justice and colluding in terrorism and mass murder against ones own citizens . Terrorism by a foreign power against a sovereign state . An EU state . EU rules state clearly that attacks of this nature ,undeniable and repeated acts of war against a fellow EU member state shall result in expulsion from the EU , thats how serious this matter is .
The southern states security forces themselves have exhibited a policy of collusion in the terrorist murder of their own citizens, therefore Aherns claims of concern about British collusion ring very hollow indeed . This is the same Taoiseach who cynically used the Dublin Monaghan families during his election campaign in the Northside . He promised to open the files if elected as Taoiseach and assist their calls for an enquiry . Instead once elected he announced hed looked at the files and that there was nothing of interest in them . And then all the files , in their entirety , disappeared from all his secure departments and garadai stations , clinically and cynically destroyed in an act of collusion by the southern police while the Ahern/McDowell co-alition looked the other way . As did the Irish media and the opposition parties .
But now theres a hullaballoo about the British so they make concerned noises while the same stinking policy of collusion with the same state killers goes on in their own backyard . And the only advice they can offer to the Irish people is to join these criminals , to actively assist in the very crime collusion was used for in the first place . A crime against their own nation , the illegal and criminal violation of a nations sovereignty. The Irish administration will do nothing to expose collusion or have action taken against those responsible because they are equally as guilty of the very same thing . Collusion in terrorist mass murder of Irish citizens . Dublin Monaghan was equivalent per head of population to the 9/11 attacks in the US . Per head of population Irish citizens stood much more chance of being murdered by British soldiers and death squads than the citizens of Pinochets Chile . We are now being asked to assist the British secure the proceeds of those crimes , the complete abandonment of our national sovereignty that they insist upon illegally violating .
Criminals commit crimes by their very nature , and those prominently demanding republicans join the British forces are largely a bunch of criminals - Bush , Blair ,Kissinger to name but a few .( Bertie only borrowed a few quid apparently) ,but to take the attitude "if you cant beat them join them " is not a solution .
As Maggie Thatcher once said " a crime is a crime is a crime" . Gerry Adams is now doing what she could never do , criminalising a generation of republicans by having them endorse a crime against their nation and a criminal occupation force .

by Arthur Sun Jan 28, 2007 21:21

Barry, you make huge sweeping statements. A C3 department north and South? Utter bollocks mate. Supposing Gardai and RUC SB did co-operate on collusion why did they not co-operate in countering the Provos terror campaign? Mark Urban's UK Eyes Alpha details the much belated co-operation the UK received after the murder of Garda McCabe; it enabled the UK police to arrest the entire Provo network in the mainland at the time (1996). Why were the UK police incapable of such an act before this? Therefore if the brits (as you would call them) got excellent co-operation from the Garda in 1996 why was there a lack of it beforehand? It would have been easier and preferable for the Gardai to co-operate on counter -terror rather than collusion and yet their co-operation on this was patchy prior to the late 1990's. I won't go into the whole Dublin/Monaghan thing as it has been examined in detail by journalists such as Martin Dillon in his work, The Dirty War. He reaches conclusions different from yours namely saying the Portadown UVF was solely responsible. If you read his work you will see he does not let the British off the hook on illegal things they actually did do. There was of course collusion I agree, but not on the scale you allege at all in fact it was a case of the SB letting their agents or 'touts' get away with crime to conceal their position, something that was as applicable to republicans as loyalists, i.e. Stakeknife. What about the Gardai collusion with the Provos along the border? It led to the murder of two senior RUC officers as well as at least two judges. The issue was far more complicated than your primitive rant would suggest.

by Marlboro Man Mon Jan 29, 2007 13:53

You're not saying that the Gardai are friends of Republicans are you?

The Gardai and their SB have been actively hostile to the IRA. It all stems back to the legitimacy of the 'state' and who represents who. Of course within the various 'state' mechanisms there would have been those who would have been sympathetic to Nationalism. A vast majority of the Irish Public are not averse to re-unification. The education system here doesn’t white-wash centuries of history as a spot of imperialism and that the natives should really get over it you see.

But as any Irish person knows, to join the Gardai a rigorous background check is performed.

I'm afraid your warped siege-ravished Unionist perspective would have you cling on for dear life to anything that would vindicate the puerile jingoist rubbish that spews out of Paisley and co's mouth.

By the way, I didn’t know the UK police had the power to arrest the entire IRA network on Mainland Europe. Wow.

by Arthur Mon Jan 29, 2007 17:26

I think you are trying to be insulting? Read what I said I accept that the Gardai were opposed to republican groups and were far from gentle about it, however they rarely co-operated effectively with the RUC SB apart from when it suited them (like after the murder of McCabe), also some individual Gardai colluded with republicans in cross border killings. The rest of what you say is not worth commenting on, how old are you?

by Kevin T. Walsh - Social Justice and Ethics Mon Jan 29, 2007 21:07

Barry......

Vincent Brownes' end line in the Business Post on Sunday was 'the Provos will become the stickies of the future' and Barry - you remember the old Stickies. Pat Rabbitte and company might deny that one but they were all old Stickies. This includes a present sitting Circuit Court Judge ..... yes all Stickies.

The conflict had to end. The appetite of the Republican family was growing less. 4,000 lives were lost.....that is War and Republican conscience accepted it.

Yesterday was a milestone but also was heartbreak for many Republicans. Of course, the test case has not come up yet. What I mean by that is - in time I hope to see cooperation between West Belfast and the PSNI. I say it with caution because one still senior PSNI officer former RUC still commands a senior post within that Force.

Barry, I read your article in detail. I have my Arts Degree in Irish History - I have my families' blood in Irish history, as has so many more and I also am a Republican for the past 33 years so please don't lecture me on Irish history fo current times.

Sinn Fein and the Movement have now rolled the dice back at Paisley. The DUP may self destruct but who gives a sh.. It is now on a global stage and everyone is watching. We can all go back on the past Barry - not just of last week....... I suggest - Let's go back to John Stalker - a decent Assistant Commissioner fo the Manchester Police who was sent to North of Ireland to investigate the Shoot to Kill Policy. The then Chief of RUC was Jack Hermon - husband (irony) of the only UUP minister left. Stalker was screwed and disgraced for a while but won his name back in the High Court. His friend John Taylor, Manchester businessman, was also ruined by just being a friend of John Stalkers. He too got his name back.

You see Barry - the Peace Talks began in the 1980's. Gerry Kelly received two/three Life Sentences at one time form bombing campaigns etc. He is now Sinn Fein spokesman on Policing in the North of Ireland - I 'd call this healthy evoloution!! (Did Kelly get his sentence down to 7 years at that time - do you know, There must have been talks about talks about talks about talks from prison cells to haysheds to Dail Eireann, No 10 Downing Street and the Falls). You see Barry - tonight there is many a Republican finding it difficult to digest his dinner. He probably finds the Conakilty black pudding difficult to digest but he knows there is no trust between Clonakilty and the PSNI but there is HOPE that Clonakilty pudding might be included in the PSNI menu in the months to come.

Barry, I enjoyed your lecture - I feel you are passionate but blind.

Emergence and Hope will unfurl in time a United Ireland.

In the meantime, we must overcome other difficulties now like Education hurdles and Health Hurdles.

Our health system is in tatters ........ ultimately, our ideal, would be a social, free health system that works with equity and based on needs...... North of Ireland health system is born out of the NHS........it is time to share on experience. (My local pharamacist Anne Therese has come from the North of Ireland to work in Dublin.....it is when she mentioned her feelings about being paid money for drugs......that it rings through about Equity and health needs being met. We are perhaps half way there.....to the aspirations of Health for all those who need it.

Lewis Carroll - (Alice in Wonderland) Barry
'It is a poor sort of memory that only works backwards) 1832 - 1878
British Mathmatican

Now Barry - Gerry and Gerry and Martin and Pat O'Neill have joined Alice in Wonderland.......the new version is now written I believe by some wee farmer from Clare called Slabbbbby Murphy. I think he is a retired revenue expert and now writes for Ireland's Own Lonely Hearts especially targetted for Armagh. Oiche Mhaith Barry.........

Kevin T. Walsh

by Barry Mon Jan 29, 2007 23:05

I could not make head nor tail of that last post of yours . You did not even address , rebut or expand upon a single point I made .

by Marlboro Man Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:27

Arthur, who are you to talk about insults when you come with gems like this “The issue was far more complicated than your primitive rant would suggest”.

You are a Unionist apologist and a haughty opinionated one at that. Oh wait of course you are, you’re a Unionist.

I’m sorry I won’t ‘lie down’ for you and accept your convoluted version of events without question. Especially your feeble attempt to suggest the Gardai where really a part of some Pan-Nationalists front by not co-operating with British police.

Or that UK Police had the power in any respect to arrest the entire IRA network on Mainland Europe.

As for this dismissive tripe, “The rest of what you say is not worth commenting on, how old are you?” Old enough to keep my toys in the pram and not run off home with the ball.

by Arthur Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:36

Right where did I say that the Gardai were pan Nationalist?
Did the Gardai collude with the IRA? For example in the cross border murder of judges LJ Gibson and RUC officers Buchanan et al? There is currently a judicial inquiry into this matter. If they did then it seems to contradict the view expressed here that the Gardai and RUC SB co-operated in collusion with loyalists as part of a fictional C3 department?
Belated co-operation from the Gardai occurred after the muder of McCabe in 1996, it enabled the arrest of the entire England department in 1996 as detailed in Urban's book UK Eyes Alpha. I am assuming you are not disputing this? Or is the best you can do quibble over my use of the term mainland? Perhaps next we can squabble over whether Derry is Londonderry or whatever such a debate would appear to be at your level! Are you going to discuss these matters rationally (sources would be nice) or shall we trade insults? A source for the claim that the Gardai and SB had a department called C3 that was responsible for collusion with Loyalists would be a good start?

by Marlboro Man Tue Jan 30, 2007 13:25

“Right where did I say that the Gardai were pan Nationalist?”

Ian Paisley Jnr said it. You are a Unionist are you not? Therefore to assume you believe the same is not a massive stretch of the imagination

“Did the Gardai collude with the IRA? For example in the cross border murder of judges LJ Gibson and RUC officers Buchanan et al? There is currently a judicial inquiry into this matter.”

This is just an extension of the DUP arguement that if SF is good enough for the north then is it good enough for the south. (a Unionist slur at the Irish Government for being, in their view, hypocritical) . By proxy unionism is now trying to calm the recent expose on RUC collusion with Loyalist death squads under a blanket banner of 'Sure even the Gardai where at it'. A case of what’s good for the goose etc. This accusation actually suits your position, so I don’t know why you appear to argue against it with this.

“If they did then it seems to contradict the view expressed here that the Gardai and RUC SB co-operated in collusion with loyalists as part of a fictional C3 department?”

I’ll answer all the same.

Even if there was a small level of co-operation at local level through a latent sympathy it is still a matter of fact that the Gardai where extremely hostile to the IRA. Your assertions prove nothing. Garda operations have always been directed against the IRA and SB routinely kept suspected volunteers under surveillance. High level collusion between both special branches regarding operational matters and IRA actions on this Island must have occurred. To suggest otherwise is naivety or wanton disregard of basic comprehension in the pursuit of an agenda.

“Perhaps next we can squabble over whether Derry is Londonderry”

Derry is Doire in English and is the ancient and rightful name for that city. Londonderry was an imposition from a foreign power and a more subtle tool of oppression.

But you see Arthur I can't debate these issues with you. You are a Unionist. The best I can do is agree to disagree with you.

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics Wed Mar 11, 2009 17:43

To the people on the Island of Ireland, it is time to lay aside temporarily our country being called by the infamous philantroper, Mr. Buffett 'an Economic Pearl Harbour' - what a shocking analogue to a majority of people who never yet encountered war face to face in Ireland i.e. the South except in Dublin in the 1970's (death unexpected and bombs).......Pure Pain and suffering.

But the North, the foregoing postings say it all.

All I ask is for people to prioritise in these troubled times enconomically and since the most unjust murders in the North at the weekend of soldiers - two men en route to Afghanistan - How, who and why?

Who do you represent? Who are you?

The Peace Process is nothing other than a way of modelling Peace.....so other countries at war, and there are too many, have something to learn from. Again I say why? I value the fact the North of Ireland is open for me to visit without fear.

A woman whose husband was hosting an event at the Royal Irish Academy......provided her views and hope and saw great fears to be overcome and a most enhanced tourist trade.....

Well done Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams.....and all others....Gerry Kelly etc.

Your honesty is honesty pure not like the farce in the Sth with our banking and financiers leaking money and hiding it in all corners of the world. Meantime - Ireland has excelled from Prosperous to near Impoverishment in but a few months..
.

Please let us not lose the asset on our Balance Sheet......that one which has great potential

The Peace Process....the move to policing (perhaps the Intelligence employed is not for a purpose we expect based on Ireland's history

To the Polish Pizza man doing a paltry paid job and he has paid his life. Thank you to the honour of the soldier who recognised the fate and tried to protect him.

Lennon................go to the words of Give Peace a chance. If I am incorrect....he abandoned wealth for the poetry of music as so many of our true poets and academics have done.

These people of violence will not win. People of both sides of the Divide held vigils together today all over Northern Ireland. As one old man put it - we had 25 years of madness and violence - my children went through it but I don't want it for my grandchildren.
I think that sums it all up............................

The 1929 Crash and repercussions almost destroyed us.......there are many books, and many horror situations and as for the WW that emanated.........Shame to anyone who thinks the Gun, the bombs are the answer........

Ireland like Zimbabwe is just a few steps away from disappearing inside the auspices of the International Fund.........we have another reason to focus on................it is our economy surviving.

Violence has a high impact on our economy. Today the manager of the Victoria Square Development, Mr. Black told RTE Drivetime that this can have a serious impact on tourism, and general business expecially foreign investment.

I will close by saying, only for economists like Brendan Keenan, Morgan Kelly, N. Brennan, McWilliams, Jim Power, and George Lee - the Government would definitely keep us in the dark on our Balance Sheets........The above mentioned should be invited by the Govt. to advise - not the spin doctors they have who cost the taxpayers millions.

Michelle Clarke

by Jacqueline Fallon Wed Mar 11, 2009 23:39

I suggest everyone view a programme that was shown on TG4 on the death of a young innocent Irish woman named Margaret Perry (ar dheis Dé go raibh a h-anam), who was found murdered in a Sligo wood - murdered by British intelligence tools! The circumstances that led to her death might just make people realise the morally bankrupt nature of those working for and in British intelligence.

The programme gives an accurate portrayal of the dirty and evil tactics used by British intelligence agencies and all who engage at whatever level in its most secretive reprehensible world. “Brathadóirí can be viewed on TG4 (Web TV) www.tg4/tv go to Faisnéis - Cartlann and to programme entitled “Brathadóirí” transmitted on 24/11/08.

I will leave you with some salutary advice for all those who are contemplating working for or aiding and abetting British Intelligence in Ireland:

Quote from Jane Winter of the British Irish Rights Watch:

“We have been contacted by a number of former informers and agents, who were promised that if anything happened to them, they would be immediately removed from danger; that they and their families would be protected; that they would be given a new identity, they would be given somewhere to live, they would be given either a job or money to live on, and they would be safe for the rest of their life and - that promise has been broken over and over again.”

Margaret Perry - ar dheis Dé go raibh a h-anam

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics Thu Mar 12, 2009 01:43

Jaqueline
Thank you for the suggested TV programme about a woman, called Perry, and her inappropriatete death - and worse implications of intelligence in a war setting or even at a time we are working hard for the Unity of Ireland. Given health I will try to watch it and also promote it.

Gandhi is one of those hidden friends in my head

'Live as if you are going to die tomorrow; learn as if you are going to learn for the rest of you life'

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice Ethics Fri Mar 13, 2009 19:54

Imagine.....the most poignant song written by John Lenis about Peace

The PSNI constable was buried today and something untoward happened. Prior sectarian groups sat with counterparts of other relgions.

Martin McGuinness spoke with resonance and an elment of Truth we ought to be proud of

Is this the beginning of Peace in the Island of Ireland

The Canon in his seermon today spoke candfidly about the people engaged in this terror being now separated from he people of Ireland, North and South.

What is peace worth to us........Omagh brought change beyond measure to the attitudes people involved who both spoke and listened and even remained silent today.

Jackie Gallagher stood today with hjis former enemies in Sinn Fein showing solidarity for the shocking murder and ruthless murder of this Police Officer. Sir Hugh Orde said - not alone was he a profesional officer serving his community (a man merely carrying out his duty to the public, he also was A LOVING HUSBAD. A young man murdered in his prime. It must stop.

Sadly our evening papers this evening are stating that the guns used to kill the two youg soldiers at Antrim barracks last weekend may have come from gangland in Limerick. It is amazing that some people write on this site in defence of these murdering thugs but everybody has their opinion but let us not be fooled, the people of Ireland spoke today in total solidarity on both sides - the full backing of the Friday Agreemeny stands tall and proud and we move forward......

Quotation - the Dalai Lama......Tibet exile
'If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito

We welcome the Unity of Ireland and the prospects that lie ahead....

Michelle Clarke

Michelle Clarke

by K.T. Walsh - Justice and Peace Sat Mar 14, 2009 20:19

Well spoken Michelle

Yes I condemn these murders and I applaud the solidarity at the funeral of ?Constable Stephen O'Connell yesterday and as is wife said, my life is also lost.

But there is a hope - a large hope of light that will spring out from these ruthless killings by CiRA and RIRA - gangland mobsters with no mandate apart from the Devil.

It was great to see Jackie Gallagher (UDA) stand side by side with Sinn Fein and our President Mary McAleese condemning this cold blooded slaughter of a Catholic policeman and loving husband.

THEY (Mobsters) will not win; the drug pedlars. The people of Ireland through the hope of democracy of all people will win.

K.T. Walsh