Pinochet given Bail to vindicate the existence of Hell.

by Max Mon Dec 04, 2006 20:17

Good Man Iosaf. You're on the ball. I don't agree with a lot of the aul rawmaysh you publish but this time you've hit the nail on the head. Organized Religion is at the root of a lot of the World's troubles down through the years. Arthur C. Clarke said Religion was the greatest scourge ever to hit Mankind.

by photos Mon Dec 04, 2006 21:58

The 'In mortal' sign carried by the pretty lady looking sad.... should it not be immoral-ammoral
-mortal- a great sinner- or some such thing.

He excused the lies, the torture and the hurt by saying he wanted to make Chile 'great'.

Depends on the criteria really :the whisperers- the power brokers define what is 'great'

Those that say the you can be forgiven on your death bed through the administration
of extreme unction ( one of the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church) . The
whisperers forgot to tell Pinochet that there is no heaven or hell- there is just the
most beautiful Now that we all live in,that we choose to ignore and to put on
'the long finger' whilst walking over the rights of our friends and neighbours who share our
humanity (but not the same god).

We all do- we just interpret it differently....

I wonder if anything will grow near the eventual grave?

by one who sees Tue Dec 05, 2006 09:22

'Knock in Ireland would have been a waste of an airport'

Get off your DART and wake up to the fact that there is life outside the pale. Blind misjustifications like the ignorant statement above has YOU on the road to Pinochetisim.

Wake up and grow up.

by iosaf Tue Dec 05, 2006 14:57

There is no word on Agosto. Sorry - I can't tell you how he is. Oh yes, we're quite sure he has never been here...sure why would he have been here? Do you have a picture of him? Oh no - never seen anyone like that. Have you checked the hospitals?

Bachelet the current president of Chile has declared that any talk of Pinochet's funeral is "in bad taste". & so it is. But whilst we wait for him to die - & either go meet his maker or just "end" - it does provide us with an opportunity to reflect on the nature of dictatorships & the substance of the men who become dictators. Ireland is one of the few countries (currently with a state) which has never endured a dictatorship, but that is not meant to deny we didn't produce numerous individuals who might have been "dictatorial material" but somehow the ebb & flow of our own often bloody history dealt with them "just in time".

In Europe between the end of the great war (1914-1918) & the subsequent collapse of the Vienna Congress empires - a plethora of new states emerged & at first all were liberal democracies. By 1944 leaving aside the occupation of NAZI germany only 4 states had not been declared dictatorships. Many would wonder at the exact nature of the personified leadership of Eire by De Valera & the "national emergency" or even wonder at the true extent of power enjoyed by Churchill & his national government. But in the British Isles we need look back as far as the Commonwealth of Cromwell to study a dictator & dictatorship. What do these men (& they are exclusively men) have in common? In the article above I merely wanted to with my black sense of humour reflect on the moral dilema which is "Hell". Pinochet may now be the object of good wishes from the Roman Catholic church but he did not rely overly on that religion for his power or even allign himself too closely with it during his stint as dictator.
True - Cardinal Angelo Sodano (who some might remember as the "prime minister" of the Holy See who broke the rules of the Vatican and met with Condoleeza Rice whilst the polish pontiff lay dying) became a close friend of Pinochet after his appointment as "papal nuncio" (or ambassador) in 1977. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Sodano But the true "power" and "impetus" of the Pinochet regime was not what I term "kathurlick". Nor for that matter was the true "power" which brought Franco's coup d'etat through 40 years of dictatorship. The Roman Catholic church which continued to exist "comfortably" with the dictatorships of Operation Condor in Latin America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor as well as the regimes in Europe of Portugal's Salazar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_de_Oliveira_S...lazar & of Spain's Franco could ignore the fate of the dissidents (who in Chile included at minimum 30,000 disappeared) merely by hiding behind the moral neccesity of the "state" to "keep order". The impetus of these regimes did not lie in excessive faith in a Catholic Theology but rather a hatred of the Materialist utopia promised by at first the Masonic influences fought by Salazar (portugal) & Primo de Rivera (Spain) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Primo_de_Rivera & the later Marxist plans for similar utopia.

I could go on for hours. I won't. Just remember that in all times & in all states - there will always be one man (more often a military officer of low rank than a general) who can rally others to his banner & present himself as the top dog. That vicious animal who alone can save "the nation", look into his heart & reconcile hell on earth with the priests' work of offering heaven to the poor. But just as in the Darwinist paradigm of the natural world & the survival of the fittest - these dogs lose first their teeth & then their bite. When at last they die (& they thank God to be lucky enough like Franco to die in power) new & other dogs emerge. The dogs of "democracy". The church can survive with either type of dog, & nominally the people are delighted not have electrodues put on their bollox. But "dictatorship" is a paradigm, only a fool would think we have finished for ever with such individuals or declare that we will soon be "post-dictators".

Here is the list of dictators in modern times which makes thought provoking reading especially when one considers the nature of the "democratic" states that replaced their regimes.

In fact we need go no further than Cromwell. Today his statue might grace the British Parliament scowling at tourists but in 1661, "Oliver Cromwell's body was exhumed from Westminster Abbey, and was subjected to the ritual of a posthumous execution. Symbolically, this took place on January 30; the same date that Charles I had been executed. His body was hung in chains at Tyburn. Finally, his disinterred body was thrown into a pit, while his severed head was displayed on a pole outside Westminster Abbey until 1685. Afterwards the head changed hands several times, before eventually being buried in the grounds of Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge, in 1960."

& that is why dictator's funerals aren't important - rather their graves are. No-one can get Franco out of the "Valle de los Caidos" yet, but many would like to dismember that corpse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_dictators#E...urope

by Basta! Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:57

Enough- Basta!

The 'disappeared' may rest in peace.

The church which supported the murderers of innocents and dissenters
may examine it's conscience.

Their bones are singing.

Solidarity to the families of the disappeared. be they in Chile or in the
other cathloic domenated lands.
300,000 unaccounted for in Franco's Spain.

Never again- enough. The table is laid for everyone not the powerful alone
who will never be forgiven for wanting to make "their countrie's great"

by Basta Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:27

Pinochet died.
Santiago is rioting.

The families of the disappeared never got their answers.

The General assumed 'political' responsibility.

'I only wanted to make Chile great'- it will be generations before the people of Chile
live in peace because of the greatness that He desired.

Today, hopefully peace for the victims of that brutal regime.

and never, ever, forget that the catholics of spain and portugal prayed for the
Allende regime to be repressed and for the advent of the Military coup
because they were told to- by the interpreters of the Fatima visions.

Guardian pic

by iosaf .:. ipsiphi Tue Dec 12, 2006 21:23

People are very upset at some of the things which have been said at Pinochet's funeral by his supporters. 30,000 of them filed past his coffin which was set up in the military academy on a street named after one of the Irish mercenaries who went to Latin America centuries ago "to liberate". 4,000 people have attended his funeral & chanted insults against the only government representation, the current minister of defence. Pinochet was appointed chief of the armed services in early 1973 by Allende. The man he murdered. & so they buried him as an ex chief of the armed services.

I thought about the image to accompany the story. Pinochet has transcended the status of a mere tyrant or right wing dictator. His name has become synonymous with brutal dictatorships & military coups. The very date of his usurption the 11th of September has too taken on new meanings.

In the last days I've seen the daughter of Allende the president of Chile who he murdered to gain power speak of his death as she (currently a socialist deputy in Chile's democracy) visited Madrid.

I have observed the irony of the timing of his death. It was one of those days of "international human rights".

i've seen hundreds of Chileans gather in the squares of Barcelona & dance, some so young in their parents arms that I can only note the scars caused by Pinochet & all those who served him & accompanied him are still open. They are open scars & supporating wounds just as Allende's daughter herself said.

I wanted to use the image of Pinochet which introduced his coup d'etat in 1973. That of his arms folded & sun glasses & clamped jaws. The true image of chilling horror, not the braided & gilted elderly statesman & general. Not the garlanded "liberator" of his patria which his supporters seem to want to be his valedictory.

& then I thought - you've seen that image ( here http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77915#comment178181 )

But at end I left you the photo of 3 of his youngest admirers who had to give the nazi salute to his corpse as he went off to heaven. Sure he got mass said by a Bishop! Above a commentator thought I was attacking religion by reflecting on "Hell" & "Justice". Well, I wasn't. More catholic priests were killed in the course of their ministry by the Chilean horror than in any other dictatorship including the soviet sphere. It was nothing to do with religion. It was hate & evil.

We wouldn't pay so much attention to Pinochet now, & let's be honest we paid more attention to his death than that of Alfredo Stroessner, & most of us can't name more than 3 South American dictators.......

We pay attention.....................

Because in 1998 Pinochet arrived in London as a guest of Margaret Thatcher to have that heart seen to & drink tea. & the spanish judge Baltazar Garzon made legal history by ordering his arrest & extradition. Such a thing had never been done before. Only Argentinian generals have had to worry since. The Israelis worry yes it is said if their generals can wander freely anymore. But no-one else has slapped a warrent on Thatcher, Bush, Gorbachev, Putin....,

I suppose Hussein got his come-uppance?

Pinochet was appointed "chief of the armed services" by President Allende. One week later he murdered him. Young Chileans give the nazi salute over his corpse.

This is Baltazar Garzon. He's the man who arrested Pinochet in Thatcher's house. He gave us all hope of justice. Never forget that.

by iosaf .:. ipsiphi Tue Dec 12, 2006 22:44

I admit to feeling tears in my eyes as I walked through less than 300 people some with their flags, one with a drum of all ages but mostly in my own generation last night. They were so happy.
so very happy.

The night Franco died and his faithful attendents went to the television & announced his passing away in bed, the grey uniformed guardia civil curfewed the bars with their customary machine guns. People drank their Ricart pernod with caution toasting a brave hope of..... some newer conglomerated brand with a more powerful name © & global image.

I admit to feeling tears in my eyes as I walked through less than 300 people last night in Barcelona's central square just in front of the seasonal Bethlehem nativity scene of peace & joy. Quit a few had their Chilean flag. One had a drum & no police man was giving him a fine for banging on it. They were of all ages but mostly in my own generation range. They were so happy..... so very happy. They were judging him. Holding their kids dancing & laughing ensuring that night will be remembered & taught yea unto the generations. They were the finest court I have ever seen. The disappeared of Chile, Argentina, Paraguay, Mexico, Nicaragua, all hot places, some other places closer to home, would have been proud of them & happy for them.

This is what the word Pinochet means. It belongs now in the Thesaurus under "Disappeared".

Neither Heaven nor Court judged him....... So we will.

This is him after being given the job & the uniform of commander in chief next to the man he murdered. We know what happened to Allende..,

The one on the right has not been judged properly yet. Why did he like her? Coz it wasn't just the Malvinas.

This a reminder of what happened next door. It's the ship Belgrano. named after a top general. latin america had lots of generals............still does.

by reader Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:22

http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2006/12/123533.shtml

another ship

by iosaf .:. ipsiphi Thu Dec 14, 2006 20:55

A few times over the years I've had opportunity to wonder about should the children pay for the sins of their parents. & I remember how I had brought readers of indymedia ireland's attention to the arrest of Pinochet's son for evading tax on a second hand car business he ran. I recall the glee which accompanied the inclusion of his daughter Lucia in the cases which are still mostly open & before prosecutors, investigators or courts.

But one case really needs to be noted. That of Agosto Pinochet the third. Until yesterday he was a captain in the Chilean army. He has been dismissed & his commission withdrawn as a result of certain things he saw fit to say during his eulogy to grandfather "the tyrant".

He joined with the other of his family in seeing that the presidential flag was placed on the coffin prior to the removal by helicopter to the point of cremation.

Whether it be Chile 2006 or indeed Spain 2005 (recalling general José Mena Aguado who passed from house arrest to similar "early retirement" for rattling sabres in a constitutional democracy http://www.indymedia.ie/article/72240? &condense_comments=false#comment133725 )

The decision taken by the Chilean armed forces must be considered not only in light of the statement by current president of the republic Michelle Bachelet who yesterday described the outspoken Pinochet "the third"'s fascistic justification of the past & attack on both judiciary & media as "a serious foul". The decision ought also be considered in the light of the speech given by the current chief of the armed forces & the last general to occupy that position (after Pinochet). The Chilean army perhaps was slightly embarrased by the fact that the funeral it afforded institutionally to one of its ex-chiefs saw their current minister of defence have to leave under guard amidst insults, whilst the foreign media ( in particular the spanish media ) were jostled & pushed to the ground.

Oh well.
grandson soldier said it was all ok what grand-da did & sure if it needed to be done again - there's kids with candles & indulgences & others with nazi salutes ready to "do it".

soldiers aren't allowed get that political. How We've learnt to keep a closer eye on them?

He's paying for his own sin. Someone will give him a job.

olé all the same though.

All court cases are open.

ex-Captain Pinochet grandson of Pinochet. He has been kicked out of the army for his speech at the funeral of his grand-daddy.

Salvador Allende was the legitimate president of Chile. There was no legitimacy to Pinochet's coup or his regime. The judiciary of Chile & other states are legitmately investigating the crimes of Pinochet's regime.