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The Shame of Honour Killing

category international | gender and sexuality | news report author Saturday August 26, 2006 17:19author by iosaf Report this post to the editors

The case of Hina Salem whose mutilated body has been recovered from her parents' back garden in Italy reminds us that honour killing is still prevalent in Europe. Just as self-immolation is not a Buddhist tendancy, honour killing has no direct connection to religion. On the contrary such types of murder reflect patriarchial belief systems. The Killers are more often than not fathers or brothers who can not accept life decisions made by their sisters or daughters & thus kill their family members to preserve "honour". Hina was 20 years of age, her body was placed with head facing Mecca after her father and other male family members punished her for co-habitating with her 32 year old boyfriend. Their trial in Brescia near Milan in Italy raises inter-community tensions being pitched not surprisingly as an "Islamic fundementalist" question, considering her father of Pakistani origin came to live in europe in 1996.

Hina Salem was reported missing by her boyfriend earlier this month. Her corpse was found buried in her family's garden.
Hina Salem was reported missing by her boyfriend earlier this month. Her corpse was found buried in her family's garden.

But it is neither about religion nor nationality.

A pan-EU criminal task force was set up in 2003 to deal with the prevelance of such murders. In the UK alone police began re-examination of 52 cases in the London area and 65 in other parts of England and Wales.

In the last years Turkey, as well as world Islamic conferences have condemned such murders. Little wonder, Turkey estimates 200 women die a year this way. In Germany the EU state with the most Turkish migrants police estimate 50 murders in the last 10 years.

The youngest confirmed European victim was a 15 year old girl.

Yet the phenomona shows no sign of abating. The Italian case follows quickly on the recent appeal by a "respected" member of the Dundee (England) muslim community. 54 year old Mohommad Arshad was convicted in 2003 after being found guilty of incitement to murder when he put a price of £1,000 on son-in-law Abdullah Yasin's head. His son-in-law had married his daughter Insha in 2001 against the family's wishes.

I repeat this has little to do with religion. It has everything to do with closed communities and patriarchal family organisation & an inability of community's to examine their values critically. It has not been too long since it was common place in Ireland for wayward daughters to spend their lives in Mary Magdalene homes. Our psichiatric services are still annually condemned by Amnesty International, no wonder - we still have inmates whose only "illness" was disobeying their father or brothers.

author by Feministpublication date Sat Aug 26, 2006 19:06Report this post to the editors

"Honour killing has no direct connection to religion. on the contrary such types of murder reflect
patriarchial belief systems".

Scratch the surface of a patriarchial belief system and you will find a rationalist
control philosophy which is intimately connected to the religion and culture
of the perpetrator of the murder/abuse/rape etc. because religion denies nothing
and accepts nothing. it is a petrified dogmatic systemisation of what was a living
philosophy- a copout.

In (for example) Catholicism- the pope is suppoused to be neither rich nor poor-
a fisherman. his handmade italian shoes echo in an empty temple, of such
rarified wealth and privilege that the cries of the dying do nor reach him. a prince
amongst men.

and yet the women who sign onto the patriarchial belief systems are worse than the men
they smell the power and carry out crimes against their sisters and daughters with an amazing
cold aclarity. most of the proponents of FGM are mothers and elder women, and yes the daughters
will be excised to fit into the cultural norm.

Religion is a patriarchial belief system. it is a codified methodology of deconstructing
the human psyche and it is conveniently a man's tool of dissection.

In Buddhism, Judaism, catholicism, hinduism.islamism- how many rabbis, priests, imans
are women?
The institutionalisation of religion /politics and education reflects a cult of patriarchy, thus
writer there is no contrary. religion and materiality are intimately linked.

author by iosafpublication date Sat Aug 26, 2006 19:18Report this post to the editors

It's culture not ethnicity. Did not Razia Sultana fulfill the prophet (pbuh)and rule as queen without the veil & survive the murderous intent of her brothers?

I went to pains to remind any readers of the article of Ireland's legacy.
Between independence and 1974, over 200,000 Irish men and women were adopted, the vast majority of whom were born to mothers sent to institutions by their families to preserve the honour or the family . Granted the women were not murdered by their families, but the numbers of women who never left those institutions after giving birth is quite astounding. They lived out their lives behind walls and in enforced penury more often than not as laundry workers.

Honour killing in the EU has a direct correalation to integration issues. "Mahmoud", I am a migrant. I live in a migrant community which sees cultural issues juggled on a daily basis. My home culture is closer to the one I presently live in than many of my neighbours'.
The forces of patriarchy and the notion of "family honour" are for the most part only accutely felt when ties and bonds to the original "home country & community" are strained by the xpectations and cultural identities of children.

Irish readers are for the most part familiar with recent UK cultural developments and the hard work played by TV screenplay writers to explain such clashes of cultural expectation. We have in our local video stores no less than 5 movies explaining what occurs when the kids want different things to their parents. The delightful movie "I want to be like David Beckham" contrasts the worries of a west London "English" family of their daughter's suspected lesbianism (demonstrated by her love of football) with an Indian origin and hindu religious family who wrestle with their own daughter's talent at kicking a ball about in "oh so revealing shorts".

Let me inform "Mahmoud" and others who too quickly presume because the 2 most recent examples of "honour killing" included those of muslim faith, that the cases reopened in the UK included missing hindu girls, missing african girls of both christian and muslim background.

A trite cliché being trotted out in Europe in the last 2 years of "terror alerts" & "clash of civilisation simplistic propaganda", is that the generation of Europeans born to immigrant parents from strongly patriarchal societies now is slightly different to that born ten years before. Whereas that older generation now of average age 30 felt "western first" and adopted supposedly western notions of "liberty & equality", the freshest generation has rejected "westernisation" in response to perceived hostility on "our part" to the muslim and hindu world. Thus after a generation of English and French chidren to asian migrants enjoying football, short skirts and durex : we now see 18 year old Londoners "rebel" by growing a taliban style beard.

It is thus most telling that though fathers initiate the majority of these killings, younger brothers play a part too. Oddly & perhaps ironically to some, this is why I opposed "the right to wear" a veil in French state schools. Ending patriarchy is not about religion. It is about how we educated all our little boys.

author by Ali H.publication date Sat Aug 26, 2006 19:25Report this post to the editors

"Non Muslims must respect our religion and our culture."

I agree that all religions and cultures should be respected but so-called "Honour killings" have no place in the Muslim religion and never have. They are a primitive tribal practice which the majority of Muslims denounce and abhor.

As for your comments about non-Muslim women you are free to leave Ireland if you find our way of life unacceptable or feel oppressed by it.

You are also free to turn off the TV or change channel to a satellite channel from a Muslim country if you so wish.

Finally respect is earned, and it would be a start to begin respecting your own women.

The fact that 50% of the population are not respected might also explain the dismal economic performance of most hard-line Islamic countries!

author by Ali H.publication date Sat Aug 26, 2006 19:34Report this post to the editors

"...If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind" (Surah Al-Maaida 5:32)

"Kill not any old man nor young boy nor child, nor woman, But be good doers for Allah loves those who do good." (Hadeeth)

author by Feministpublication date Sat Aug 26, 2006 19:42Report this post to the editors

The major prophets of many of the dogmatised religions coincided historically.

Ethnic honour-killing will continue in western societies, either as a reaction to assimilation
or as a methodology of control of women. simple.

The things which were held dear to the man and younger brothers are threatened by
materialist culture, so to keep things precious they copperfasten and further dogmatise
the already petrified structures that butteress the belief systems that they hold dear.

Fear is an element in honour killing.

A lot of people lose their religion, until they have kids and then they begin to
want to pass on the religion to their children and the value system that accompanies it.
They want to baptise the kids and teach them about their culture, it becomes a dominant
theme in the early oral history of the infant. Especially in the songs or in the use of the
language at home that may not be used in the education systems, workplace or
social life.

So little girl, apple of daddies eye grew up steeped in His-story and confounds it by falling in love with the wrong person.

Rage is an element of honour-killing.

Daddy perceives girlie as a link back to and into the future of the family oral history.

Thus what judge can try the perpetrator of murder-which is irrational 'crime passionnel'?

is incest an element of honour killing?

author by iosafpublication date Sat Aug 26, 2006 20:04Report this post to the editors

obviously down when down the video store we don't all choose the same movies. Yep, maybe we've all seen Michael Moore. Possibly we stretch to Kandahar

But I reckon we've all seen Shrek 2. A wonderful cartoon style movie which tells the story of a little princess Fiona & how she rebels against her parents the King & Queen of Far Far Away Land. They want her to marry prince charming. She has her eyes set on an ogre.
I really like how the king of far far away land seems so like the british prince Charles. It reminds me of his marriage to Diana. It conjours memories of the rumours that she was assassinated rather than have a baby to the son of an Egyptian shopkeeper. Ah yes! fairy stories.

During the summer I referred to one daddy engaged in protest (of that troublesome Irish generation "fifty something")....( you know the ones they say they're carrying bombs into Dublin airport, they phone up the gardai & say they've packed liquid explosives onto a Shannon stopover, they douse themselves in petrol & blame the christian brothers).................anyway................ one of those was upset about his daughter's fate & went on "hunger strike". I nodded to Shakespeare's Titus andronicus. Oh yes, how Titus murders his daughter in the last scene for honour, after she has passed 3 acts without hands or tongue after the emperor's sons raped her.-

The primary reasons given for honour killing in Europe are :-

* failure to submit to an arranged marriage ( for we all marry whom we want when we want in Europe for love if not lurve)

* being a victim of rape.

* being some type of peculiar homosexual type.

it's got nothing to do with race nor religion. It's got to do with patriarchy and why it ebbs and flows. Why do some daddies get the power (& use it) and some other daddies apparantly would never dream of such a thing? & to what extent to we have to make allowance in our cultural and gender education (which in Ireland we don't have) so that future generations won't do this right royal shitty type of thing?

author by Tank Girlpublication date Sat Aug 26, 2006 20:07Report this post to the editors

I also doubt if Mahmoud is really a Muslim. I think hes just trying to stir up shit. Iosaf, thanks for a very moving piece.

author by Niall Harnett.publication date Sat Aug 26, 2006 20:33Report this post to the editors

Can't agree that this is not about religion, it's the religion of these killings that gives people the 'authority' to uphold the tradition of these killings.

But Mahmoud,

Be honest, even you can have no respect for your religion because it holds no power to change the desires of your heart, if you wish it, which is to lust after the 'disgust' you describe - admit it.

Just like the Roman Catholic Church (the most demonic and dangerous cult of alI), your religion Islam holds no power because God is not in it. No power to make you a man of God, a holy man, that is.

I may respect you Mahmoud, but certainly must not and do not respect your religion, nor your culture, if your traditions force you to support this kind of behaviour.

And Jesus, the man, the prophet, said that he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill the law, by submitting his own body to be mutillated and destroyed so as Hina Salem and you could be freed from that same law - the law of sin and death.

You might delight in that 'good news' Mahmoud, instead of relishing a law to which Islam binds you and will judge you, and from which it has no power to free you.

Related Link:
author by iosafpublication date Sat Aug 26, 2006 21:31Report this post to the editors

I'm not really into the sustained religious quotation stuff going down in the comments. I can outdo them. Here's an islamic example.

Koran Sutra 6 "at-talaqa" 2nd verse line the third.
"Do not kill your children for shame or poverty for it is We who shall provide sustenance for you as well as for them."

of course behind every daddy who does the chopping off of heads & burying in the backyard - there's an equally fucked up mammy. That's why "gender & politics" is so interesting & deserves attention & screams out @ you from almost every dvd.

all little princesses from near or far away land deserve less patriarchy on the daddy & brother & mammy side of things.
all little princesses from near or far away land deserve less patriarchy on the daddy & brother & mammy side of things.

author by Feministpublication date Sun Aug 27, 2006 13:17Report this post to the editors

They like to submit to the nonsense in the comment above.
well some of them do and when they put themselves in a position of subservience and idolatry they become the tool of these warped philosophies of power.

In western society they are the eunuchs:- the perpetrators of crime, such as Ms Rice, Ms Beckett or the common or garden variety of standing by your man, be he a West, a dutrout or any other perversion of sociopathic/psychotic dimension.

In Ireland we have the mild sociopaths that inhabit the Dail and watch whilst civil rights are wiped away in favour of a society driven by commodification and soulessness. If men bury their daughters in the backyard the women in the house who know what is going on make the tea and wipe the brow, because they have bought into the fallacy of the mind-bending religion that dictates someone must die, to preserve the family honour. Their complicity is silent but an aid to deliquency. poor old rosemary had to do time while freddie killed himself.

So are we looking at psychosis or sociopathy ?
cos it sure as hell aint love.

author by iosafpublication date Sun Aug 27, 2006 16:37Report this post to the editors

& that in turn most perpetrators of violence and murder are male & either partners to the victim or family members. & all our telly & movies aside the vast majority of murders and serious violence happens at home.

It's a truism reflected by police statistics throughout the EU. My home state (the Spanish one) leads the EU in what is termed "gender violence", only yesterday a 50+ year old daddy & husband killed himself after killing his wife & teenage daughter. As I brought this theme through honour killing as typified by migrant (often but not always of asian origin) to honour punishment as well typified by Ireland's legacy of Mary Magdalene homes & laundries, perhaps I didn't stress enough that what is one news report or statistic an honour killing is in another report or statistic a murdered wife or partner.

& I can't stop wondering about the age profile of the men who commit these crimes. There is definitely a clue in the type of social role these men felt prepared or given them and the dichotomy felt with the world they live in.

Lastly, I don't like quoting the Bible, the Quran, the Vedas, Chairman Mao's little red book, the lyrics of Lou Reed & Nico or even the Talmud or complete glossy volume set of qabalistic texts & commentaries when talking about domestic, family, or gender violence. At end perhaps the true shame of honour killing is the name we give it. All women ought report all instances of violence or cohersion, & I suggest the best place to start such a change is not on the telly soap operas but in secondary schools.

author by VO5publication date Sun Aug 27, 2006 19:32Report this post to the editors

Hackneyed though it may seem, and the discussion trivial in the context of the
progectile vomit of world/global politics. Men are victimised as much or more by
socially conditioned roles and they are as angry as hell too.

So what the fuck do you do?

Recognise that patriarchy is an illusion and most women are not actually in need
of your protection and encouragement- they are women, not little girls. This means
they have the brains to make their own lives and have their own loves. There comes
a time in a fifty year old man's life when he has to let go of his princess and allow
her to be a woman- which means, cocking up (literally and metaphorically) and
having affairs and getting pissed. because she is a completely separate
and complimentary person.

Take this into the realm of institutionalised politics, and committees and apply the
same criteria;- women have their own talents, they are not foot-soldiers to some ideology and
most certainly not subjects to a state that disempowers and infantilises both sexes,
creating hopeless models of what it is to be a member of a meritocracy.

Oh yes-and before the response of being a woman entails more than cocking up and getting pissed
it is actually an aspect of separating from the patriarchy of the family, get eneibriated enough and
you won't wake up until you have the kids, the wedding, the cars and all the rest of those delightful
consumer objects that provide a palatable response to the questions that avoiding personal
responsibility entails.

Every single man who finds the burden of the meritocratic male too much, the bread-winner
bullshit, who is infantilised by the societal role projected on him, has a wanton sister
who feels the same. but they are too busy extending their grievances into the realm of domestic abuse
to notice that control issues are not their perogative.

The man who murders his daughter or creates a self-martrdom on the basis of
her honour being compromised is a liar, he is extending his impotence to her. plain and simple.

and guess what she doesn't want it-

author by Ever so 'umblepublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 02:03Report this post to the editors

The original "story" can't even get some basic facts correct, e.g. the family in "Bend it like Beckham" were Sikh not Hindu as is obvious from: a) the prayers and reference to Babaji; b) the stereotypical turban, beard and whiskers; c) the names of the protagonists.

At best this would count as a badly spelled, irrationally punctuated and factually deficient piece laden with pretentious opining.

Add to this that the whole thing reeks (as feminist appears to be suggesting) of the patronising, western male lecturing another (subjugated) culture about how to treat its members. Spivak's "Can the Subaltern Speak" would be useful reading to understand this point: among other things she retails the white Sahibs' obsession with stamping out the practice of suttee (nice white oppressors defending the weak objectified woman).

The killings in the EU that you frantically assert are "nothing to do with religion" are all carried out by those that are very visibly members of the subjugated, non-dominant religions and who thus have more at stake in enforcing strictly the rules of their religion in the attempt to resist hegemony.

Totally trivial, insulting, poorly researched and off the cuff (I hope). It reminds me of your awful defence of the French ban on hijab, redolent with sexism and orientalism.

author by Duinepublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 14:45Report this post to the editors

Shíl mé go raibh marú i dcoinne an dlí!

author by Tobiaspublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 15:31Report this post to the editors

The idea that "patriarchy" and not religion is the problem is ridiculous. What religion do all the victims belong to? And their murderers?

Patriarchy exists all over the place but it doesn't end up in slaughtered teenage girls except within Islam.

So stop trying to compare this barbarity with what USED TO go on in other countries. Our resident Feminist might like to consider life under fundamentalist Islamic regimes today before trotting out inaccurate comparisons with the Magdalene Laundry. Which clerics or family members ordered or funded the murder of girls there? None, that's who.

author by Ever so 'umblepublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 16:01Report this post to the editors

There is nothing inherently more/less appealing about Islam or Christianity in terms of patriarchy. In some ways Islam allows women more freedom (e.g. the right of a woman to initiate a divorce or to take a temporary husband). If Catholics were in the minority in a hypothetical Islamic EU it's not inconceivable that they'd be bringing back witch-burnings and packing their more independent daughters off to magdalene-laundry style institutions. The Protestants would be bringing back packing the vagina with ice (a medical procedure to cure hysteria you understand) and would also do their share of witch burnings.

Contrary to iosaf's assertions this is everything to do with an intersection of religion, class, ethnic background and colonialism. Contrary to your (Tobias') assertions this is not unique to Islam, it's one expression of patriarchy through one particular religion.

author by Tobiaspublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 17:01Report this post to the editors

If it's "not unique to Islam" please cite instances from other religions. I'm particularly interested in Catholicism because the reflex reaction here is "we're no better, or nearly as bad". Which is rubbish.

author by redjadepublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 17:24Report this post to the editors

'Individuals within certain Chinese, Japanese and other (South) East Asian cultures, legally sanctioned the killing of unfaithful wives by their husbands to protect family honor. In some (past and present) South Asian, Indian and/or Hindu cultures, new wives are at times murdered by their husbands because of failed dowry demands.'

Honor killing

author by Tobiaspublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 17:46Report this post to the editors

So nothing in Europe, and nothing by Christians? And no specific instances, as requested?

author by pat cpublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 17:55Report this post to the editors

This is from the same Wiki reference.

As of 2004, honor killings have occurred at the hands of individuals within parts of various countries, such as Albania, Bangladesh, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Ecuador, Egypt, Germany, India, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Italy [12], Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan, Palestine, Sweden, Turkey, Uganda, the United Kingdom and the United States. Honor killings are more common among poor rural communities. In Europe, honor killings have mostly been reported within some Muslim and Sikh communities. Individual Arab Christians living within parts of the Near East, such as sections of Egypt, Jordan and Palestine, are said to sometimes carry out the act as well. [13] Many cases of honor killings have been reported in Pakistan. In December 2005, Nazir Afzal, director of Britain's Crown Prosecution Service, stated that the United Kingdom has seen "at least a dozen honor killings" between 2004 and 2005. [14] Critics argue that the practice is over-whelmingly associated with certain Muslim cultures and the peoples influenced by those cultures. [15]

author by iosafpublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 18:04Report this post to the editors

I wrote above that the father & husband had killed himself, it turns out in today's spanish press updates that he survived his own suicide attempt as in intensive care in a hospital having seriously damaged his head, face and lost an eye.
His wife (x-wife) had reported him less than a month ago, there was a barring order against the 58 year old. He shot both his wife and daughter (who was pregnant) with a sawn off. The police had previousloy impounded his arms ( he had had a collection) when the court ruled he ought not see his wife again. & now the last detail:-
After killing his wife and daughter he phoned his other children and said "see!? you have our inheritance!"

I suppose it's difficult to suicide with a sawn-off.

author by iosafpublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 18:05Report this post to the editors

no orientalism.
as I said it's got nothing to do with class, religion, ethnicity, nationality or spelling.

author by Farmer's wifepublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 18:10Report this post to the editors

In Ireland who were killed (mentally) by their fathers and guessd what it was about honour-

Let's take the issue into the unique Irish psyche:-

Girl (number one). Oh fourteen years ago. was epileptic and different,
she hada bevy of beautiful sisters, all daddy's girls. She got pregnant.
She was sent to a good catholic family, the baby-a boy was removed
from her on the specious grounds of her illness- the caring and consideration
was enormous. She was in her twenties. Hidden for the duration of the pregnancy
and her child removed. she used come and hold my baby. she even called her son by the
same name as mine, (the english version). She had slash marks on her arms and was
regularly put into the local mental home for the grief you know, and drugged till she couldn't see.
she knew, it seems that there was something wrong, with the way she was treated, but
there was no discussion of family suport for the pregnancy. nurse or home-care support
for the mother. she was a great sinner and that was it. This was fourteen years ago and I still see
how she touched my son's arm and the tears in the eyes.

She was killed on the inside. detracted from, treated with derision by the people who were
suppoused to care for her. no-one sat her down and asked what she wanted for her child.

Or the young girl who came looking for a room-share and was removed screaming by her dad and brother back to the mental hospital. because they knew what was best for her.

Or we can look at Ann Lovett, and how the family let her and her kid die, because
no-one wanted to know about the pregnancy.

There are many ways of controlling and killing a woman. They are not so overt as
the burial in the garden. one is not to recognise her autonomy and respect it. another is
to subject her to a value system based on patriarchial tenets of control.

it doesn't happen anymore- two foundlings in Dublin.(in recent years)
the baby in the skip. we can all be happy that the meritocracy we are creating for
our daughters is based on equality of treatment and respect+ for individuality
and female experience, now can't we? especially in the light of the new morality, a return to
putting rape victims on the stand, criminalisation of boys for having sex and the
meetings in Rome to develop a systemised patriarchical philosophy of 'intelligent
design' based round the template of the US creationist mythos.

author by iosafpublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 18:37Report this post to the editors

Today editorial and comment writers in both Spanish & Italian commercial press converged on the deaths of Hina Salem & the mother & daughter of Osuna. Admittedly most editorials are written by males, those who earn their living from writing articles instead of just sharing their thoughts for free on an open publishing system not only have to worry about spelling but also the bias & restraints of a "macho little world".
I found the editorial comment writers of La Reppublica (Italy) and La Vanguardia (Spain) very similar to the source comment pieces I used for the article above, which came from the BBC and I have good reason to believe it was compiled by Meriel Beattie a woman whose expertise on both Asia and Feminist concerns has won her awards. But of course to my usual detractor on indymedia it is nothing but thinly veiled orientalist sexism. I supported the ban on ostentatious religious symbols in state schools of the French republic because I taught in one of those schools and felt & still feel that in France, social integration and cultural diversity may best be served in the state school system by upholding the values of the republic & not allowing any little brother to think his sister is not a naughty little girl because she wears the veil another does not.

of course I only mentioned videos and movies in the comments not teh original article so the facts were and are completely correct.

some links to the BBC section :-
( to quote "So what constitutes honour? Is this is a religious issue?
No. The world's major religions do not play a part in these killings - although many of the guilty have tried to justify their actions on religious grounds. The key factors are cultural and generational divisions, the victim's refusal to toe a line and a reaction against a family or clan's self-proclaimed code or rules )

My material is always impeccably sourced in both local media and language & international news organisations. Eat humble pie!

author by polkupublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 18:52Report this post to the editors

So killing the girl was a bit much, but if we don't learn to respect different cultures and their sensitivities - even things that we would normally think are not right - we won't ever get along. Different cultures have their own ways of doing certain things, we shouldn't impose our own morality on them. We should all learn from these people, our ways and laws aren't always right. There has to be room to let other cultures live by their own laws and traditions.

author by iosafpublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 19:57Report this post to the editors

Hina Salem was no less a Pakistani or a Muslim because her father had brought her to live in Italy when she was nine years of age. & the justification given by the male members of her family for conspiring to murder her & then murdering her was that she chose to live with a 32 year old man instead of submitting to an arranged marriage with a cousin who lives in Pakistan. Maybe it's family investment that fuels these "honour" things.

Sra L.C. and her pregnant daughter never seemed to get what they wanted from either the RC marriage counselling or the law courts or for that matter the local police station. They wanted to be left alone.
Sr. F.L.C. didn't want them getting his investment, perhaps why he phoned the other surviving family members & said "your inheritance".
The pregnant daughter was no less Spanish just because she got killed.

Both men who killed their children are over 50 years of age.

I admit I can't spell, I also admit I'm not that honourable. Maybe that's why I can't understand why someone younger than my dead Father would be if he had lived could kill his daughter. Jayzhus my Dad just stopped talking to me. But I've boned fowl and gutted fish. little tip :- if you're after a low fat chicken dish yet wish to save centimos of euros on paying the butcher or supermarket for pre-boned cluckies :-
start at the breast with a sharp knife. work on the weak side (less developed) (all animals are "sided") first. Cut the legs and wings not at the sinew but just below the ball joints. skinning any bird is much easier if you brush it with vinegar & water first. over where I live: cluckies come with the neck attached & rabbits with the head.
Its poaching season at the moment, started august 12 - carries on till almost first frost. So lots of delicious new additions to the table.
grouse, patridge, pheasant :- all need to be well hung & in today's eating culture we've gone sort of beyond that. Meaning not many of us have dry and large enough larders to hang game birds anymore. Last thing you want to do is leave a shot bird in your fridge till it goes near putrid. But that's the thing with game meat- you need to let it "pre-digest" itself. full of free radicals! Which is why if you do eat rabbit or the game birds you must eat lots of fresh vegetables & that's where the wonderful cranberry juice came in. As we know the americas gave us about half of our typical diet like potatoes, but most don't realise the importance of the 3 american berries to our condiments. Cranberry juice is the best thing for cystitis too.

how different the ages of mankind might be...

So maybe we need the sort of men-kids who can do these things but fall stop of murdering the wimmin in their families?

author by hmmmpublication date Mon Aug 28, 2006 22:08Report this post to the editors

Objecting to the 'their' here Mr Mac Diarmada. You see a lot of the problem stems from the
issue of ownership, or the nuclear family myth. When in fact its a construct, based on a mean-
true families are not controlled by a patriarchial set of values. Though a lot of men would
like to imagine that it is so. Families are communal efforts and there are actually a hell
of a lot of other people involved in the impossibly long raising of a western child
including the grandparents, aunties, uncles, neighbours , baby-sitters, older kids and
the whole mish mash of community that chuck in their oar- asked or unasked.

Its when the community collaboration breaks down due to interference by the nanny
state or the gender roles plied by the patriarchial cultures are actually taken seriously
that things become problematic. If the community can ignore the offices of the nanny
state and the gendered roles that society demands of the male and female ,the family
has a broader aspect. Expectation thats societally projected through mass-media
and other forms of cohersion contribute to the potentialities of violence. We can take it for
granted that the state does not like community given the amount of communities under
threat, nor does it like friendships .

It's one of the oldest arguments in the book, look at Shaw. the issue of gender roles constructed
societally perpetuate the myth that women belong in the home, they are commodoties
to be bartered and their voice and strength is unacceptable because it suits the western world to
keep them in a state of infantile unawareness. and you can object all you want.
women are the target market for mass- consumption. we live in an age of conspicuous consumption, in which politics
and democracy are debased by the market forces that drive the governments and corporations.
The beginning of dealing with the constructed mythos of patriarchy is to de-school people from
what is considered a societal norm and open out the ossified process in media, government and
education that perpetuate traditional gender roles. but shit- something might get broken and
that is too scary for most of our decision makers.

If we look honestly at the issue of violence against women - the issue is about power
and control. it comes out differently. women do violence to themselves by internalising
their violences. Medean fury is rare, it is not about victim staus but breaking through the
specified gender roles that we collaborate in by accepting them as a cultural norm.

Women and consumption:- look at war and the use of food and consumption in war.
The wars are unrecognised in western society except for the eating difficulties where
women are startling thin-and encouraged to be ,or very obese. This is peculiar no?
Images of women sold to women in magazines- all the glitter and distraction, the clutter
of trash that predominates rather than the encouragement of voice amongst women.
We yo-yo with weight problems while a large section of the globe starves.

author by iosafpublication date Tue Aug 29, 2006 17:17Report this post to the editors

But let's not forget that alternative family constructs (including single parent families) in numbers which are demographically significant have short histories in Europe & most particularly in Ireland. The changes which occured in Irish society occured in Spanish society as well. Cryptic theocentric regimes discouraged single parenthood by denying social assistance, or legal options of seperation or divorce. Both Ireland's and Spain's introduction of divorce were seen widely as watersheds in the movement to "normal modern societies". Yet not without previous attempts. N. Brown's mother & child act in Ireland, the depth of Franco's undoing of the 2nd republic's feminist advances (mostly propagated by the first anarchist minister in government the femenist Montseny).

little news factoid update :-

Last night just after I wrote the penultimate comment, I turned on the telly news. 3,000 people had assembled in the small town in the south of Spain where Mrs C.L.A. and her pregnant daughter were murdered. (In many EU states murder victims and suspects are only named in the media by their initials). One demonstrator told the telly that she had been "a neighbour of Carmen" who had said she would end up like one of her husband's rabbits. I blinked. The penultimate comment had been a nod to our proximity to violence, & a joke aimed at our collective working class consciousness, for in poaching season we all enjy a bit more meat or fish on the table. no?

In Spain there have been 54 women murdered by partners or male parents in 2006. That's an increase on 2005 which saw 37 die and 2004 when 44 were slaughtered. Spanish society through its media is exploring the issue of gender violence . For the third running editorials such as this one sit next to a line up which reflects a state where an estimated 120,000 reports of gender violence are made a year. Other articles and tv move from this latest murder to the Austrian girl in the basement story back to the Italian/pakistani woman whose photo and tale started this thread.

Spain is different I suppose to Ireland. Both are different to Jordan which has flatly refused to scrap its "honour killing" plea option in court. But no statistic or peculiar difference between states such as Spain & Ireland explain the reasons why men mostly of 50+ years of age do this. Maybe Carmen's husband murdered her because he had played too many video games. Maybe his conscription period in Franco's army put a love of sawn off shotguns in his head. Maybe it was the dhrink. Maybe it was catholicism. But one thing is certain, in Europe this week the german speaking states are obsessed with a case of child abduction, the Mediterranean states are wondering about patricide & the english speaking states have other worries....,

as usual making money & fighting terror.

author by Anthonypublication date Tue Aug 29, 2006 22:57Report this post to the editors

Amnesty International UK's web page detailing their "Stop Violence Against Women" campaign

Related Link:
author by Statspublication date Wed Aug 30, 2006 14:48Report this post to the editors

DRCC today published a report on sex crime in Ireland. Noting both the twenty fifth Anniversary
of the service and the annual statistics for sexual violence in Ireland. The Press statements on radio and
at speak to an increase in sexual violence against women and an increase
in children seeking help about child sexual abuse.

The speaker stated that the judicial system was partly responsible for a failure of
people to report crime, because of it's out-moded and out-dated language and systems , which were alienating
to victims.

There has been an 11% increase in people seeking counselling support.
A 9% increase in children seeking counselling support in relation to child
sex abuse. In figures terms, the increase represents 2000 extra children
seeking help. It is the highest recorded figure since the inception of the

New laws and the changes in statutory Rape legislation will not impact until
this time next year.

Related Link:
author by Honor, Adultery and Revengepublication date Thu May 22, 2008 17:10Report this post to the editors

But I can't help myself. I need to point out that although we do not hear of "honour killings" in Occidental cultures, they do in fact exist. Often, it is accompanied by "gender violence," and could be considered an extreme case. Spousal abuse is just as often as not (I feel) a matter of "honour" than not.

It's important to note that honour is about the honour of the men involved in the situation, which is impugned by the female's honor being called into question, because he cannot control her, he cannot protect her, etc. It's a tale as old as time itself. Even the Spanish playwright Calderon de la Barca was making fun of it in a number of his works (sometimes called the honour plays), while at the same time pointing out its very real presence. We're talking pieces called (translated) "Love, Honor and Power," "The Painter of his Dishonor," "The Doctor of his Honor," "The Worst Monster in the World, Jealousy." Dishonour is public shame and the only way to regain lost honor is to publicly denounce, remove yourself of that which shames you (it's public opinion, after all). A popular Spanish saying goes "It is better to be cuckolded when nobody knows, rather than not being when everybody thinks you are" and it's not a phenomena that only exists in one country. Its all over, the result of a blend of many factors, many cultures and centuries of misplaced belief in the power of men and men alone.

For further information on honour killings, gender violence:
"Maria's Grotto" is an amazing documentary on honour killings in Taybeh, Palestine (a Christian city, no less) filmed in 2006, by Buthina Canaan Khoury. It was, and probably still is the only film of its kind.
See also: femicide

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