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Captured Israeli soldiers were in Lebanon when clashes happened

category international | anti-war / imperialism | news report author Thursday July 27, 2006 12:22author by Akrasia Report this post to the editors

Claims that Hezbollah breached Israeli border are false.

Has the media has been lying to us all along to justify the horrific Israeli military action against Lebanon?

We have all been told that Hezbollah breached Israeli borders and captured Israeli soldiers from behind the Israeli lines and this has been the justification for the annialation of lebanon and the killing of around 400 lebanese people and 4 U.N. observers.

Initial reports of the event were that the Israeli soldiers were captured on Lebanese territory after clashes between the IDF and Hezbollah, but now it has emerged that the Soldiers were captured near the town of Aitaa al-Chaab well inside the Lebanese border.
this one is from forbes.com
Quote:
The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them.

The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity.
http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ap2873051.html

The story was quickly changed to imply that the soldiers were captured along the border, and then changed again to suggest that hezbollah had captured the soldiers from within Israel.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html

The fact that Israel were the aggressors in this incident completely removes all possible justification for Israeli's bombing campaign in Lebanon and now the case is perfectly clear, Israel are in gross violation of international law and should be immediately sanctioned.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html

author by Ali H.publication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 14:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

" Kidnapped in Israel or Captured in Lebanon?
Official justification for Israel's invasion on thin ice
by Joshua Frank

Related Link: http://www.antiwar.com/frank/?articleid=9401
author by righteous pragmatistpublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 14:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Israeli troops might well have been on the Lebanon side of the border and the Israel military seems to be targetting Lebanese civilians but surely Israel has the right to stop subsequent Hezbollah rocket attacks if those Hezbollah rockets are targetting innocent Israeli men women and children in Haifa, Nazareth and Tiberius and elsewhere?
Israel should stop killing Lebanese civlians but Hezbollah has not right whatsoever for attackking innocent Israelis

author by Paddypublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 14:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What a tired old line of nonsense !

Arab haters such as yerself , Righteous, spend hours condemning Hamas and Hezbullah as terrorists, islamofacist, extremist murderers. Blab blab blab.
Then you waffle on about the brave IDF , the thin red line between the Muslim Horde and the defensleess lambs in Israel.

Then what do you do ?

Make direct parallel comparison between your hated savages and the actions of your vaunted heroes. Justifying your heroes attrocities by comparing them to the actions of people you claim are subhuman.

Like we shouldnt be appalled if the British army were colluding in Dublin and Monaghan because we should be appalled beacuse of the IRA pub bombings.
Youre warped logic is a direct produce of your anti arab/muslim idelogy. Now do us a favour and apologise to the world for insulting our intellegence

author by Johnpublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 14:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Israel has national service.
Therefore all adult Israeli civilians are trained members of the IDF.
The IDF has almost 100% backing from the Israeli public.
Besides Israel is established on stolen Arab land.
As long as the US backs Israel, rocket attacks and suicide attacks are the only alternative open to the Lebanese and the Palestinians.
Israel should be dismantled by the UN and the Jews evacuated.
They're presence is causing the instability in the Middle East.
If they were moved out to America or Europe they would save from the Arabs but most importantly the Arabs would be safe from them.

author by hmmzpublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 15:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Besides Israel is established on stolen Arab land.

What about The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan then? it makes up 75% of Palestine, do you actually realise that? And do you realise what race of arabs control it? Are they **Palestinians**?

Get in there and start protesting, see what treatment gets given back to you by that nice government.

author by olliepublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 15:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

according to a letter in the Irish Times last week ,signed by Noam Chomsky, Harold Pinter and others, the spark was in fact the kidnapping of a doctor and another man by the Israeli army. The two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped (or captured, depending on where they were) in reprisal for this. This initial kidnapping was not widely reported.

Chomsky in interview with Amy goodman: http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=2006071...54851

"Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother."

The death ratio is still running at 10:1 arab:israeli. The vast vast majority of lebanese deaths are civilian, the majority of israeli deaths are soldiers. Somehow, the 'terrorists' are killing soldiers, and those with 'the legitimate right to bear arms and use force' (the classic defination of a state in political science) are killing civilians.

To compound matters, the US has sped up the sale of missiles to Israel. Even the right wing press are carrying this one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/20...7.xml

author by PaddyKpublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 15:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

John,

Try as I might, I don’t think I could possibly agree with you less. Israeli civilians are not legitimate targets, nor is Israeli civil Infrastructure. Military Infrastructure is a legitimate target and there are strong indications that Hezbollah is making strenuous efforts to hit military infrastructure in the North of Israel. They also killed nine IDF soldiers yesterday which is legitimate conduct in battle. As they were in uniform and engaged in hostilities.
A full return to suicide attacks by any Palestinian or Lebanese faction would be an utter disaster for the suffering people of those two societies with the result of sapping International sympathy for them. And giving Israel moral authority where it currently has none. I pray they do not resort to it. Witness the Hell in Iraq.
Israel will not be dismantled and it's civilians will not be removed, ever. Calling for such things will entrench Israeli society, yet further, against the International community by providing it's psychotic leadership with great PR Spin to fuel the paranoia that they currently exist off.
The Israelis do not want to be moved out of their country and forced population transfer is defined as a crime against humanity by the Rome Statue of the International Criminal Court (Article 7).

One cannot seek justice for international crimes by perpetrating more.

John you are wrong.

author by johnpublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 16:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

America could give the Israelis one of its enormous national parks to create a new Israel.
But while Israel remains on Arab land they are legitimate targets.
Israel has killed thousands upon thousands of Arabs.
There have been about 50 Israeli civilians killed and already 500,000 Jews have left Northern Israel.
Hezbollah's rocket attacks are working.
If there can be a few more suicide bombings from the West Bank and a few more rocket attacks from Gaza, Israel will be surrounded on three sides.
Iranian students are coming to fight for Hezbollah too.
If the IDF gets bogged down in Lebanon and more Jews are killed in rocket attacks then the Israelis will start emigrating.
The UN should step in to help the Israelis evacuate.

author by Joshuapublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 16:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Olmert and the IDF commanders well understand the tactics of Hizbullah terrorists.
Unfortunately, for civilians on both sides, Hizbullah and Hamas fail to understand
Whenever there is peace for too long, then attention comes back to the suffering caused by the occupation. So, provoke the terrorist, who will predictably include easy targets like Israeli men women and children, thus 'justifying' IDF slaughters in Lebanon and Gaza... the plan for this aggression was made a year ago. Setting up two naive soldiers to get captured was just a handy pretext to launch it on.

and as for John, the Israeli's should not be forced from Israel as the jews were from Germany, Poland and Russia... but no more Arabs should be displaced either. I think the Israeli state should be dismantled, as it is racist and sectarian, but that doesn't mean that the Jews, Muslims and Christians can't live in the same place with a new state (or two) that guarantee equal rights, access to water, roads, etc.

author by Johnpublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 16:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"I think the Israeli state should be dismantled, as it is racist and sectarian, but that doesn't mean that the Jews, Muslims and Christians can't live in the same place with a new state (or two) that guarantee equal rights, access to water, roads, etc."

The original ancient Hebrew people scattered by the Roman legions after the Temple was destroyed.
The Israelis claim a mystical connection to this long dead race and culture.
Its just like the Germans claiming to be Teutons or Aryans.
I bet if you looked at the DNA of the Israelis you would find no connection to the ancient Hebrews.
The Jews of today are more likely Europeans who adopted the Jewish religion and culture just as others adopted the Christian religion which was originally an exclusively Hebrew. Those who called themselves Jews later became misunderstood as original the Hebrews.
Its just an accident of history that Judaism did not become the dominant religion in Europe.
In an alternate universe we might be talking about Christians as a distinct race and Israel might be called the Christian State instead and Hezbollah attacks against Christian Israelis.

The Hebrews were originally a Semitic people. The scattered remnants probably converted to Islam so that the present Muslim population of Palestine and Lebanon are desendents of the original Hebrews not the Israelis who are European and American imposters who arrived after 1948.
The Israelis claim to be Semitic and anyone who criticises them is an anti-Semite.
Im sure if you scan the DNA of Jews and real Semites you will find no relation between them.
Israelis therefore are an ethnic group not a racial group.

I have no more claim to be a Celt than an Englishman has to call himself a Saxon

author by Joanpublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 17:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Everyone, whether pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian, should ignore John. Either he's a disruptive troll, or a fascist who's concealing his real agenda, or an out-and-out crank. Either way he's not worth taking seriously

author by Bryanpublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 19:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Are you trying to sidestep the fact that Israel is the most divided state in the world between arab Israelis living inside Israel and Israelis themselves?

In that case, why does Israel revoke the residency status of arab israelis who are married to an Israeli in east Jerusalem?

author by PaddyKpublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 20:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

John's opinion is very controversial indeed but in a negative way.
More suicide bombers ? Will you be providing your own flesh and bone for this martyrdom operation? Or that of your child ? I doubt it. Your calling for suicide attacks is an ugly act, here. You cannot have the wellbeing of the Palestinians at heart with such malicious propaganda.

Regarding your Purile suggestions for the problem.

Even if the entire population of Israel could be forced to move to Yellowstone Park ( such childish tripe) by implementing crimes against humanity. It would be the start of a new war by Jewsih/ X Israeli factions that would bring us right back to this place.

Your dismissive characterisation of the Jewish Community is both unhelpful and incorrect. Whatever descendency claimed by the Jews and the current genetic evidence that exists to back those claims has absolutely nothing to do with Israeli crimes in Palestine and Lebanon.

Israel will not cease to exist any sooner than will Ireland.

In order to resolve this issue in the ME the Jewish identity will have to be utterly extricated from Israeli government policy in relation to it's military objectives. Then it will be possible to call for implementation of international boycotts against the rogue state without opening the door for Pseudo Zionist or Anti-Semitic propaganda which has paralysed the functions of International Law in relation to Israeli military actions.
I am not giving you this for your benefit, as I suspect you will not absorb it, but for other people who might think there is a shred of reality to your outlandish proposal and derogatory claims relating to Jews.
This is a political issue. That must be resolved without resorting to destructive measures such as suicide bombings. This is about trying to finally get the world leaders to come together at the UN against the hegemonic intentions of the US and ISraeli Governemnts in the ME.

One possible option was aired on Znet today:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=2...10648

author by Nordiepublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 21:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Palestinians ask for full voting and citizenship rights: they get what they want - the whole of Palestine back, and the Jews get what they want - er, the whole of Palestine too. Although I doubt the Zionazis would ever agree seeing as there would be a non-Jewish majority.

author by Pat - IRBpublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 22:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Or should I say Dr. Mengele?, You want to compare the DNA of Israeli Jews with the Original Inhabitants- Boyo that sounds like the "Selection" of death camp fame. Your stunning nazi like code words to cover such blatent racism, hurt legitimet critiscism of Israel's actions. I never thought I'd see the day when a Progressive movement would allow the likes of your ilk.

author by Southiepublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 22:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nordie
You're right, in that case, Israel would either have to say yes and stop being a jewish state, which is not going to happen. Or say no and argue against the fundamental principle of one state. That would put Israel in an extremely difficult position and further isolate it from its supporters in America. They wouldn't want that anyway because its their lifeline.

author by Nordiepublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 22:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It's a sensible solution so it probably wouldn't work in the Middle East alright.

It's like here (the North): There is no solution.

author by eastern eyepublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 23:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You are wrong.
DNA researches were already done. It was found that Ashkenazi (European Jews) DNA and Mizrahi (Mid-East Jews) were preety much the same, and anyway, close to each other, much more than a DNA of a Pole Jew to DNA of a Pole Gentile. What more - DNA of priests (any Cohen, Cahana, Catz, Kagan etc., inc. many others which their family name isn't Cohen but they have a family tradition that they are priests) is similar, not matter where the origin: DNA of a priest from Poland or Russia will be similar to that of a priest from Iran or Iraq. By the way, you can't become a priest, unless you are born one. You can convert to Judaism, but not become a priest.
Now, guess what: the closest to Jews, in a matter of DNA, were Palestinians.

author by eastern eyepublication date Thu Jul 27, 2006 23:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The kidnapped IDF soldiers weren't on Lebanese soil. They were reserve soldiers on their last day of term. No one would send them inside Lebanon. Even now, in the middle of the war, reserve soldiers DONT enter Lebanon. All the fighting is done by regular service soldiers. Reserve soldiers are far less trained, and are not fit for that.

author by .publication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 00:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What about the Israeli presence in the Sheba Farms area of (S. Lebanon)? You're lying, they do occupy a part of S. Lebanon.

author by eastern eyepublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 09:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

1. The kidnapped soldiers weren't in Shabaa farms.
2. The Shabaa farms are Hizballa's mere subterfuge and excuse to fight. According to UN, they belong to Suria. According to UN, Israel has withdrawn to the international bord with Lebanon.
3. Even the Shabaa farms issue is not an excuse for entering other nation's soil with no quarell or provocation, attacking their soldiers, killing 8 and kidnapping 2.
4. Yes, soldiers are legitimate aim, but still, Its an act of war. On acts of war, you response.

author by humanistpublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 09:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Don’t even respond to that little Hitler advocating throwing people out of their homeland because they don’t have the “right” DNA. The Jewish people of the world have a shared culture. They do not need to measure up to John’s DNA profiling – which by the way smacks of Eugenics!

And there have been some balanced, reasoned, humanist opinions given to this conflict here which have been dismissed as pro-Israeli and even some people accused of being “spies” and “propagandists” by those who want to see the world in black and white instead of the murky grey which history has left us.

It’s this sort of dogma and pointless tribalism which fuels conflicts all over the world.

author by hmmzpublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Palestinians ask for full voting and citizenship rights: they get what they want - the whole of Palestine back, and the Jews get what they want - er, the whole of Palestine too. Although I doubt the Zionazis would ever agree seeing as there would be a non-Jewish majority

Errr--A) the palestinians aka the PLOs main aim was the destruction of the jewish state--this then changed to **take whatever land we can in settlements and launch attacks from the acquired land** again a sneaky way of **total destruction of the jewish state**--its as plain as the nose on their faces that this is still in force---The IDF remove themselves from the area and immediately Israel is under rocket fire from the territories they just withdrew from--forcing them to go back in again---this is a common feature that happens over and over and over again--

the palestinians can never get ALL of palestine back because JORDAN is 75% of Palestine and the PLO were EXPELLED from there years ago by their arab **brothers** as the state got sick and tired of their antics

If they actually serious about their **Palestinian State** they would be asking their heshimite brothers for 3/4 of their land back, they are not however as they are only interested in their stated objective of **total destruction of the Jewish state**

If Israel gives back the land taken in 67,(which was a war launched by the arab states which they lost in record time) they will just launch attacks from that land into israel, as they have done from every piece of land that they have got so far

most of the fabled land of Palestine sits in Jordan but nobody would want to upset the saudis and say that they are kicking out their blood brothers from their state of jordan AKA Palestine
The main failing of the arabs is their leaders aka despots

for example heres a small list of saudi arabias contributions to arab society:
Financed the attempted assassination of Egyptian president Gamal Abd al-Nasser (1954).
Supported and financed Idi Amin of Uganda (1970s).
Financed the coup that overthrew the Pakistan’s democratically elected president Zulfikar Ali Bhutto (1977).
Supported despotic Siad Barre in Somalia which led to the breakdown of the country (1980s).
Provided support for the Christian Phalange against the pan-Arabist Mourabitoun and the Shias of Amal and Hezbollah (1980s).
Promised $10 million bribe to Iranian Air Force Colonel Raed Rokmi to stage a coup (1981).
Encouraged and financed Saddam Hussein to invade Iran. The war resulted in 1 million dead and hundreds of Billions of dollars in damages (1980-1988).
Financed the assassination attempts against Hassan Al-Turabi, Sudan’s religious leader (1990s).
Financed the construction and running of thousands of fundamentalist Wahabi Madrassas (Wahabi religious schools) in Pakistan.
Financed the creation of the Taliban (1994).
Facilitated, participated and partly financed the invasion of Iraq by US (Gulf War I - 1991).
Helped with intelligence in the invasion of Iraq (Gulf War II - 2003).

thats a small selection, no wonder the arabs are destroying themselves ffs, when they get the courage to overthrow the despots that run them maybe ..just maybe they will become a small bit normalised.

author by hmmzpublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

well everyone talks about Israel mistreating the palestinians

how about there arab brothers? How do they treat them?

HMMZZ

Related Link: http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/arabtreatmentofpalestinians.html
author by historical inaccuraciespublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"the palestinians can never get ALL of palestine back because JORDAN is 75% of Palestine and the PLO were EXPELLED from there years ago by their arab **brothers** as the state got sick and tired of their antics"

"If they actually serious about their **Palestinian State** they would be asking their heshimite brothers for 3/4 of their land back, they are not however as they are only interested in their stated objective of **total destruction of the Jewish state**"

1) Jordanian Palestinians were never thrown off their land and so do not need to get it back. True the Palestinians in Jordan feel agrieved at the lack of equality in the state but they never had their land taken off them as in Isreal.

2) The PLO were thrown out on black September for their activities in Jordan. They were there to represent the disenfranchised Palestinian refugees who poured across the border fleeing the fighting in their own country and to continue the fight for their homeland there. Many of these refugees still live in Jordan.

"no wonder the arabs are destroying themselves ffs,"

3) While there are some fundamentalist, radicalised Palestinians (not exclusive to them: think right wing fundamentalist christians in our "civilised" western society) who quite possibly do want to wipe the state of Isreal off the map, the majority are just ordinary people who want justice and equality and are willing to fight for it. I do not see that as destroying themselves.

author by hmmzpublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

2) The PLO were thrown out on black September for their activities in Jordan. They were there to represent the disenfranchised Palestinian refugees who poured across the border fleeing the fighting in their own country and to continue the fight for their homeland there. Many of these refugees still live in Jordan.

Yes the PLO were EXPELLED from Jordan..like i said....also they were EXPELLED from Lebanon.....

1971: PLO expelled from Jordan, moves to Lebanon.

1972: Militant PLO faction kills 11 Israeli athletes at the Olympic Games in Munich, Germany.

1974: UN grants observer status to PLO.

1982: PLO expelled from Lebanon, after attacks by Israel in response to PLO missile attacks. (LOL SOUNDS FAMILIAR EHH)

author by gordipublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I was born in Israel. My parents were born in Israel. My grandmother was born in Israel and HER parents came to Israel straight after the end of WWI, ascapping Pogroms in Bielorus. Surely I have no less rights in the state inwhich I'm 4th generation, than a Palestinian called Habash (means his ancestors came from Sudan), or Al Mizri (means his ancestors came from Egypt).

Now, you people say we're paranoid. Well, we are. One can guess why.

author by hmmzpublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 13:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

1) Jordanian Palestinians were never thrown off their land and so do not need to get it back. True the Palestinians in Jordan feel agrieved at the lack of equality in the state but they never had their land taken off them as in Isreal.

Answer: In 1957, Yasser helped in the founding of Fatah, an organization dedicated to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state in place of Israel and Jordan (i.e., historic Palestine). THATS A FACT, So looks like Fatah disagrees with you there my friend

author by barrapublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 14:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Good point Gordi, 4th generation people had the right to call where they live home, be they Arabs living in France or Irish in the U.S.

All human beings are conditioned by tradition, religion, language, education, literature, art, custom, convention, propaganda of all kinds, economic pressure etc.

No where in the world is there such a contrast between the conditioning of human beings than in Israeli and the surrounding area. Mutual respect, understanding, forgiveness are anti dotes to long term peaces and co-existence for people living in the region.

Sadly there is little sign of people progressing towards any prospect of long term co-existence. Different sides are clinging on to there flags and banners rallying around fanatical leaders with no long term vision but uniting people around hatred of past crimes.

Gordi if four generations from now you want your decedents to inherit and a decent land to live in there are going to have to be dramatic and radical changes in how the population of Israeli and the surrounding area thinks and acts towards each other

Plants these seeds NOW and reject hate based ideologies.

author by PaddyKpublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 16:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Surely I have no less rights in the state in which I'm 4th generation”

We wouldn’t know Gordi.
But, personally, I’d say that if you’re the type of Israeli who believes in equal human rights for everyone, then you would be right in your statement.

But if you’re the type of Israeli who knows and understand the depraved nature of your governments policy for the Palestinians, yet still supports them and encourages them in what they are doing, then no I don’t think you should have equal rights. I think you should be entitled to the minimal rights that you support for Palestinians.
I think you should be locked up in a big outdoor prison and fired upon at regular intervals. I think you should be starved, or “Put on a diet”( HoHo,) as your elected reps proscribe for the men, women and Children of Palestine.
I think you should be stopped at roadblocks and humiliated as often as possible. I think it would be helpful for you to have your house demolished and your fathers and brothers locked up without trial and systematically tortured.
Then I think you should be expelled to Syria.

But if as I said you are a decent Israeli, who is shocked by the actions of your government and will do the very least by not voting in your elections, or by writing a letter to your newspaper or local politicians, even if it doesn’t get published or read, to dispute the horrible fate that your Government has concocted for the Palestinians, then you are to be respected and you should enjoy your full human rights as you support to be suitable for others.

If you are a decent citizen and human then I wish you good luck and I hope to see your country subject to crushing economic sanction until your economy collapses and you have no other option but to sack your government, send the criminals for fair trials and pay reparation to the victims of your country’s atrocities.

Then I will be delighted to visit your country and enjoy some of your hospitality as I pass through to visit the independent states of Palestine and Lebanon.

author by iosafpublication date Fri Jul 28, 2006 21:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

when I first reported it to Indymedia Ireland & indeed Irish readers on the 12th of July.

In the 70 hours after that incident the words used to report on it were very important, both Redjade & I pointed out in our coverage at the time that the US, Israeli, Lebanese and EU media differed.
Most of the EU followed the US example of "kidnapped" but the BBC being different chose "captured", incidently the BBC have meetings to decide what terminology to use so they continue to "seem impartial".

But at that time neither side confirmed exactly where on the border the incident occured other than "just outside of Shomera on the frontier". If you look at my report and the map I attached (which came from the Israeli Haaretz newspaper - you see the little "flashpoint star" managed to cover the border. http://indymedia.ie/article/77195 and the map :- http://indymedia.ie/article/77195 )
if we look at the best map I've put up so far to help people understand the conflict strategy & logistics and range of missiles :- http://indymedia.ie/article/77240?&condense_comments=fa...58848 (& if you click on that map you may enlarge it) Reading the comment with that now in which I sarcastically reminde readers of the importance of European tourism to both states of Lebanon and Israel - in light of the eco-disaster oil spill - - - well....... the hills are still interesting allbeit if fishing like Jesus is off the itenary.

I am of the opinion that the incident which "started all this" occured on the road from Israeli Yiron Baram to Lebanese Yaroun which carries on to Kiryat Shmona (presently occupied by IDF & Fox news). Its a bit like saying which bit of a Monaghan hill is more Ulster, especially when you realise there is not really a "class B" road from Yiron Baram to Yaroun. Its the sort of dirt-track that got classified as an "unapproved road" in Monaghan and Cavan. But this conflict bears little comparison to any British-Irish one. The USA thanks to its Irish Lobby used complain half-heartedly.

author by Noapublication date Tue Aug 01, 2006 01:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Do unto others is nice, but remember: We are Jews, not Christians. There is nothing in all Jewish traditional scripts about 2nd cheek (by the way, you Christians are not preety good in doing it, but I couldn't blame you).
There is another ancient Jewish phrase: The one who come to kill you, kill him first.
And there is another one: Do not Judge your friend, till you'd get to his place.

author by blaisepublication date Tue Aug 01, 2006 05:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

hey Noa - is another Jewish phrase - 'he who disagrees with the Jews is an anti-Semite'? Who cares about the petty 2 soldiers Hizbullah captured. That's the least they could do in face of the humiliation the state of Israel has inflicted on the Palestinians and the country of Lebannon over the years. And those lying, conniving spinmaisters you parade over the airways with their 'terror and terrorist' propaganda. 'We would never target civilians or the U.N.' You always have and always do target civilians and peacekeepers. I should mention journalists as well as professors. The world has proof of it. Yours spinners are playing to a dumb-down American and British audience who all ill-equiped to fathom the murderous butchery of your nation. In fact you run a concentration camp and its called 'Gaza' and the world, the thinking world, is well aware of this. You hide behind lies and deceipt. Pretend peace deals with Palestinians without water rights. Cessation of sorties while bombing continues. Telling civilians to leave when all the roads are bombed to bits and you bomb them anyway.

Quana is known from the Bible for the famous water to wine - now you've turned it to blood and desecrated the land. You've taken a thriving Lebannon with wonderful people, beaches, cafes, clubs, history - from the Paris of the Middle East - to the fallen down shamble of ruins - all foreign nationals out - tourist business ruined - lives ruins - dead bodies everywhere - total humiliation of a people and a country for 2 bleeding soldiers who probably wouldn't think twice about ruing the lives of Arabs and Muslims and Christians. Without the United States you are nothing and they are one sick puppy. Bully boys who are actually quite racist I believe. All your spinners talk about the other side having no regard for human life, but it is you and your brothers I see having no regard for human life, except your own. The rockets the Hizbullah are firing into Haifa won't even fit into those tiny rooms in that building you incinerated and crushed with the women and children. More lies from the spinners about housing those rockets.

Israel has never really been fair in any of its dealings with its Arab neighbours, so how can they possibly know if peace is possible. They won't allow peace. They talk about peace but their actions are far from peaceful. They are very good at developing hatred as is the United States. I have no connections to either side of this struggle but the Israeli side looks to me like a lying, murderous bunch of terrorists.

author by (Amir) Ishaq Al-Sulaimanipublication date Thu Aug 03, 2006 19:49author email ishaqa777 at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

The only logical solution to the MiddleEast crisis will be the Arab world's recognition of an Arab-Jewish State of Israel to replace the European entity of the Zionist State of Israel. The majority of Jews living in Israel today are Arabs of the Jewish religion. Arabs of the Jewish religion were deceived into leaving their Arab ancestral homelands of Iraq,Morocco,Yemen and other places throughout the MiddleEast and North Africa .
In a unified front Arabs of the Jewish,Muslim and Christian faiths will call for the dismantling of the European Zionist State.Resolution 242 ZIONISM=RACISM can only be approved by the testimony of Arabs of the Jewish faith. If European Zionism discriminates against Arabs of the Muslim and Christian faiths and does not discriminate against Arabs of the Jewish faith then it is not racial but religious bigotry,however if Europeans of the Jewish faith discriminate against all Arabs whether
Muslim,Christian or Jewish then Zionism is racism. The Zionist stealing of Yemenite Jewish babies
will serve as the symbol of the Zionist racist attitude towards Arabs of the Jewish faith.
As a solution to the displacement of Arabs of the Jewish faith on the part of Zionism ,the Arab world will recognize an Arab Jewish State with its capital in Tel Aviv.The Arab Jewish State will be a member of the Arab league with the Iraqi jews being the ambasadors to Iraq,the Yemenite Jews being the ambassadors to Yemen and the Moroccan Jews as ambasadors to Morocco. The U.N.,the Arab and Jewish agencies will fund the resettlement of Israel's European Jewish poulation to the various European countries,while the Ethiopian and Indian Jews will be resettled in Ethiopa and India respectively. The United States will pick up the bill for resettling American Jewish settlers and the
Black Hebrews of Dimona.

author by the diggerpublication date Thu Aug 03, 2006 23:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I guess you are about one step away from quoting from the Potocols of the Elders of Zion.

Which would probably be greeted with wide acclaim here, to be honest.

author by Lawrence of Arabiapublication date Thu Aug 03, 2006 23:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"The U.N.,the Arab and Jewish agencies will fund the resettlement of Israel's European Jewish poulation to the various European countries,while the Ethiopian and Indian Jews will be resettled in Ethiopa and India respectively."

Better yet, let's send all of the Arabs back to the Arabian Peninsula. From Morocco to Egypt the invading oppressive colonizers would be evacuated. Scrape them out of Lebanon Syria and Iraq too. This would make room for the indigenous peoples to reclaim their land and finally live in peace.

It's way passed time to send these religious OCCUPIERS back to where they came from!
They've spread nothing but religious intolerance, dath and destruction.

author by PaddyKpublication date Fri Aug 04, 2006 00:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thanks for the advice, Noa,

I already knew that one though , I heard it as :

"Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes."

The answer to that is:

"Then do what you like cos your a mile away and you have his shoes."

But you are wrong, you do have a Golden Rule in Judaism.

http://www.bahainyc.org/presentations/goldenrule/golden....html

I'm not asking you to be a Christian just be a decent person and check the actions of your country against your own core beliefs. If you do this then regardless of what you come up with I, personally, will respect that.
If you look at what Israel does then decide it is good and wish it to continue then I respect your choice to wage brutal war on unarmed women and children, I hope you get what you deserve very soon.
If you look at the actions of your country and see something that is wrong and do something to try and stop it, then I respect your choice to reject your country's atrocities and I hope you find a way to change it from inside.
One thing is for sure, Israel's time is up with the free licence to kill. If it is not changed from the inside then it will have to be changed from the outside. Your country first , America next.

author by J. Darmailpublication date Fri Aug 04, 2006 05:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This is so true, why doesnt it get wider viewing?

Related Link: http://www.militaryspot.com/videos/video120.htm
author by man of godpublication date Sun Aug 06, 2006 20:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

to all who may read ,especially john&paddy

i am a bible believing christian and reading some of the comments has almost made me vomit due to the anti semitism that not even hitler & his nazi reich could have come up with during ww2.lads unlike you i love god and pray that he might have mercy on all yes all in israel and the arab world .who do i agree with,well first of all i think we all know that it is rubbish saying that the two soldiers were on lebanese soil when the were abducted this was planed by a very cunning & very well funded iranian proxy army whose agenda is to wipe out every jewish man woman and child,and then if that was achieved the undoubtably will turn on the christian as the have done iin every country especially in lebanon & egypt ,i have just com e back from luxor where in the last month 3 christian churches have been burned to the ground & two young christian men beaten to death,your muslim friends will tell you that its not true but check the net under(egypt coptic christian),so what should we do god says we forgive & love one another ,the jew or the muslim cannot understand this simply because the dont believe in the cross or the blood of christ.but john in answer to your hate mail,brother you need help your mind set is from the pit of hell,israel has yes has existed for 3,700 years and after the great disporia of ad70 israel existed in their hearts the are a great people who need god but god loves them read the old testiment(i will never leave you nor forsake you)and he wont even if you or islam dont agree the are gods chosen flock he chose isaac not ishmael this is fact read genises 16.john let god be god the murderers will burn in hell on both sides for their actions.godbless noel

author by OrangeAlertpublication date Sun Aug 06, 2006 21:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

30+ (non-military) injured following Hizbullah rocket attacks on homes in N.Israel.

Israel attacke Beiruit again today, injuries unknown-though, we can suspect high.

-----------------
we should be protesting for both people, this is jsut wrong all around. Innocent people exist in Israel too, believe it or not some. Also, some who argue that Israel has "every right" should remember that children and families are pretty highly unlikely to be hiding 2 soldiers under their homes.

War crimes are war crimes, whether commited by zionists or religious extremists.

the Govs of Iran,America, Israel, Hizbullah and Hamas have a lot to answer for..

I stand with...NONE of them. Let us condemn them all.
the cales are different, but all sides have bloody hands.

author by ktgpublication date Tue Oct 31, 2006 01:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

To the Israel supporters here, Israel first bombed all of Lebanonese civilian areas and infrastructure with 660,000 artillery shells as well as 40,000 bombs and rockets.

Source:

Lebanon: Protect Civilians From Unexploded Weapons
Civilians and Aid Work Endangered by Dud Ordnance
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/16/lebano14011.htm

The Hezbollah retaliated by firing back ONLY with 3197 rockets from the 1940s with a high failure rate.

So why are you condemning the Hezbollah for shooting back after Israel shot first with an overwhelming amount of ordnance?

Lebanon clearly has the right of self-defence against Israel's carpoet bombing as it is a military rogue state that had invaded and occupied South Lebanon from 1982-2000.

Related Link: http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/16/lebano14011.htm
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