8 Sudanese face deportation from Sweden despite 19 day hungerstrike

by Emma-RAR Mon Jun 26, 2006 23:56

Hope it all works out for the men just shows the racist attitude Europe has to asylum seekers.

by Gerri Tue Jun 27, 2006 00:25

Emma

Constantly your name appears on indymedia and constantly you call people racist. In this instance you say:

"Hope it all works out for the men just shows the racist attitude Europe has to asylum seekers."

What exactly in your opinion constitutes 'racism'?

What in the above article infers that the Swedish authorities or Europeans in general are 'racist'?

by barra Tue Jun 27, 2006 03:14

.

by Caoimhe - RAR pers caps Tue Jun 27, 2006 14:17

what a horrific story. Will you keep us updated about what happens these people please

Thanks

by Bon Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:57

To refuse black asylum seekers is racist? So what happens if white asylum seekers (like those from Bosnia, of which there are many in Sweden) are refused?

by Blah blah blah Wed Jun 28, 2006 15:49

NGO's have reported that a genocide is taking place in Sudan. Hardly a country that shouldn't be top priority. As for racism, I find it very amusing that in this day and age with the internet a valuable resource for education that people still think that racism is just about skin colour. Me dinks peeple needed reed abit.

by fact Wed Jun 28, 2006 16:10

please you may want to adjust that to Has taken place
to state that it is still ongoing is simply playing with words. Since the 5 May Abuja agreement there has been a decline in violence in much of Darfur, except for the western region where there is factional fighting and an actual deterioration of security, and the genocide you speak of has actually allready taken place quite some time ago.

by Blah blah blah Wed Jun 28, 2006 16:51

Sudan is peaceful alright, violence and genocide is in the past. I think not

Peaceful Sudan?

http://allafrica.com/stories/200606270396.html
http://www.lakesunleader.com/articles/2006/06/28/opinio...6.txt

Yep its a great place alright.

by pfft Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:07

again you play with words--i never said darfur was peacefull --i said that the genocide HAS TAKEN PLACE..read it slowly please and repeat, you were trying to say that it is currently ongoing on its previous scale and that my friend shows your knowledge of the situation---p.s posting a link of a guy who has been tortured by police...could have been the Uk even Ireland ffs
there are far more countries in much more strife today, fact of the world that we live in i am afraid.

by Blah blah blah Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:14

What people are arguing about is its scale. What you are doing is posting under different pseudonoms with incredible bad spelling and awful grammar. Also perhaps you would like to name the countries which are worse than Sudan. And please do a spell and grammar check.

by pfft Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:31

check your grammar, ohh arr shows your mentality.
North Korea
Sierra Leone
Angola
Dem. Rep. of Congo
Haiti
Somalia
for a start...

by Gerri Thu Jun 29, 2006 00:26

To the person who posted the following:

"NGO's have reported that a genocide is taking place in Sudan. Hardly a country that shouldn't be top priority. As for racism, I find it very amusing that in this day and age with the internet a valuable resource for education that people still think that racism is just about skin colour. Me dinks peeple needed reed abit."

Very few people would argue against the fact that human rights abuses take place on a big scale in the Sudan. Presuming you accept this asserion does it then automatically follow that each and every person claiming to be Sudanese should be granted asylum in whichever European country, like Sweden, they are applying in?

If some of these people are refused asylum, after an investigation of their claims, does it automatically follow that this is a racist decision?

Are those that make decisions that involve refusing some applicants asylum (and allowing others) racists?

Once again, I invite Emma or any other RAR member to define what exactly it is that they mean by racism.

It is a word that they to use often, so their response will be interesting.

by Blah blah blah Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:29

pfft there are people from most of those countries in Ireland getting deported, I seriously doubt you are out there campaigning for them to stay. Also its completely untrue to say that the humantiarian situation in most of those countries is worse then Sudan. But don't worry nobody expected you to make a decent argument, you don't have the IQ for it.

Gerri immigration controls are racist, its pretty obvious to anyone with any kind of critcal analysis. And whats this nonsense. You except the humanitarian problem in Sudan but dont want to give people asylum. A great understanding of asylum you have there Gerri. If you want a defintion of racism look it up yourself. The NCCRI has one which most NGO' in Ireland accept. As for RAR, why would they bother responding to you, you are making stuff up about Emma, she doesn't constantly call people racist and RAR don't use the word as often as you pretend. Is this the best argument you have?, its pretty pathetic. Another pseudonom change and the usual trolls come on and attacks RAR as if RAR have nothing better to do than repsond to their drivel. Give it a break. Also I wont be wasting my time repsonding to your crap. Instead of using the internet to troll on indymedia and pathetically attempting to attack RAR why dont you use it to read up on racism. Look for the answers rather than make them up. We can expect the usual repsonses that have been made on every RAR thread or any thread that RAR responds to. Pretty depserate stuff from the trolls.

by pfft Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:12

??: pfft there are people from most of those countries in Ireland getting deported, I seriously doubt you are out there campaigning for them to stay. Also its completely untrue to say that the humantiarian situation in most of those countries is worse then Sudan. But don't worry nobody expected you to make a decent argument, you don't have the IQ for it.

yeh nice arguement there son, nice full facts, you are a genius, try backing up the comments there, explain to us all why the Sudan is worse than that of the Congo etc,and the idea that you think it is the same poster all the time kind of sums you up nicely, and no i dont campaign for somebody just on the basis that they come from the congo or whereever, its a thing which you have to apply on a case by case basis otherwise you get organisations supporting the actual abusers because they apply a blanket approach without investigating facts...typical really

by Spell check Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:29

Pfft you are talking nonsense. The humanitarian situation is far worse in Sudan than it is in the Congo. There is absolutely no proof to back up your assertion all the evidence backs up the claim that Sudan is worse, why dont you provide one link that proves what you say. It is also interesting to note that you still want to deport people from those countries in Ireland, nice chain of thought there. Your arguments are about as accurate as your spelling.

by shame Thu Jun 29, 2006 13:45

shame

by spell check Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:06

Once again pfft YOU are making the claims and it is up to YOU to provide PROOF to back up your claims. You are unable to. Sudans humanitarian crises is far worse than the others. I am not trying to limit the humanitarian problems in the other countries I am refuting pffts claims because they are nonsense. How about a bit of proof to back up your claims pfft or are you just one of the trolls who claim stuff that they can never prove. Stunning logic you have pfft.

by WTF?? Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:18

Let me get this straight pfft you admit the problems in Congo are very bad but you still support deportations to the Congo. Shame on you. People should ignore this poster pfft he has nothing positive to add to any debate and contradicts himself.

by pfft Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:32

i again find myself repeating:

its a thing which you have to apply on a case by case basis otherwise you get organisations supporting the actual abusers because they apply a blanket approach without investigating facts...typical really

quite often people are refused as they have been found to be lying through their teeth--in some cases have actually been in the oppressive militias etc etc..all i am saying is that due process must be given a chance, i support any genuine application in full, simple really.

eom

by Duine Thu Jun 29, 2006 17:08

Tabhair cuireadh dóibh teacht go hÉirinn.

by Gerri Thu Jun 29, 2006 21:23

Dear Blah blah blah,

you state:

'there are people from most of those countries in Ireland getting deported'

which countries do you mean exactly? The countries mentioned on this thread are
Sudan
North Korea
Sierra Leone
Angola
Dem. Rep. of Congo
Haiti
Somalia

Ireland has never deported anyone to any of these countries. If you can find evidence to the contrary, please show it.

You also state:

'Gerri immigration controls are racist, its pretty obvious to anyone with any kind of critcal analysis'

That, Blah blah blah is your opinion. It is not a fact. Please try to be aware of the difference between opinion and fact. You appear to be saying that all immigration controls are racist, correct me if I am wrong. You are of course perfectly entitled to this opinion, however I would dispute that this is the opinion held or that it is 'obvious' to 'anyone with any kind of critical analysis'. It would appear that the majprity of people of Ireland, who are imbued with various levels of proficiency regarding their powers of analysis, support some level of immigration and asylum control, as they are entitled to do.

You state

'And whats this nonsense. You except (accept?) the humanitarian problem in Sudan but dont want to give people asylum. A great understanding of asylum you have there Gerri. '

Correct, I do accept that there is a severe problem in Sudan,as would everyone with the exception perhaps of the Khartoum government. However, I never stated that I did not want to give 'people' asylum. It appears you are ascribing views to be that I have not expressed and that I do not hold. Of course asylum should be given to those in danger of persecution in Sudan. However, this cannot and does not apply to each and every person claiming to be from Sudan. Hence the need for an asylum process.

You state:

If you want a defintion of racism look it up yourself. The NCCRI has one which most NGO' in Ireland accept. As for RAR, why would they bother responding to you, you are making stuff up about Emma, she doesn't constantly call people racist and RAR don't use the word as often as you pretend. Is this the best argument you hav, its pretty pathetic.

I am not asking for a dictionary definition of racism, I am curious to know what Emma or indeed any member of Residents Against Racism define as 'racism'. I do not know how you can say RAR don't constantly use the word or call people who disagree with their views racist. They incorporate the word 'racism' into their name and Emma certainly appears to me to use the word quite liberally in the Indymedia threads where she comments that I have read.

Which is why I would really like to know what RAR or Emma actually mean by 'racsim'.

Do RAR believe that any attempt to impose any form of control over who is allowed to enter or reside in a country, by the authorities is 'racist'? It appears that RAR members believe that the asylum system in Ireland and Europe in general is flawed. Do they believe that there should be any asylum system in place at all or that the existing one be overhauled?

These are valid questions which RAR should be able to respond to in a coherent, rational and non-abusive fashion.

by Blah blah blah Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:00

I am forced to comment again to deal with your infactual post. Ireland has deported people to most of these countries, and many more are currently facing deportation to most of those countries. McDowell verified the deportation in a parliamentary question asked by Aengus O'Snodaigh, which should be available online. The facts are clear on this and the facts are against you. As for RAR incorporating racism into their name, if they called themselves the Smurfs Fan Club you would still have a problem with them. RAR is just the name of the group and it is rare that they use the term racist, I don't like the name myself and neither do some of their members but it is just a name. As for policy RAR have called for the asylum system to be removed completely from the hands of politicians and put under the control of a body such as the Human Rights Commission who will deal with the asylum system with a human rights approach. RAR have consistently repeated this on indymedia and in the corporate media. If you were so knowledgeable about the asylum system and what RAR say than you would know this. The reality is of course you know feck all about the asylum system and even less about RAR. I will once again suggest that you use the internet to look up things yourself rather than make up stuff about RAR and the asylum system. Or perhaps you could just email RAR at residentsagainstracism@eircom.net or go to their meeting tonight at 7 in the teachers club 36 Parnell Square, Dublin 1, or you could ask them the questions at their stall at College Green across from trinity college between 12.30 - 2 every saturday.

by pfft Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:15

Thx gerri, you are the second person to ask this person to actually back stuff up and again he/she has failed to do so in the most spectacular fashion.
enough said

by Blah blah blah Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:23

Once again pfft you are the one that made the claim and it us UP TO YOU to produce proof to back up your claim. It is idiotic in the extreme for somebody to make a claim and then ask someone else to prove them wrong. It is up to you to provide proof to back up your nonsensical claim, you have been unable to do it showing that you are talking absolute crap. Way to go genius.

by reflective Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:55

The choice of the name 'Residents Against Racism' by this tiny and unrepresentative fringe group is designed to imply several things which are just not true:
1. That the group is somehow representative of, or has been democratically elected by a 'residents' association. It has not. It is a self-appointed organization. It has never been democratically appointed or elected or has any relationship with any residents association.
2. The use of the word 'residents' is also meant to imply that it is composed of middle of the road ordinary householders. It does not.
3. The adoption of the phrase 'against racism' is an imtimidatory ploy used to imply that anyone who opposes RAR is 'racist.

Contributors to Indymedia will be well aware of the propensity of RAR spokespersons, when losing the argument, to resort to calling those who have the temerity to question their fact-lite assertions, 'racist'.

To be fair, the self-styled 'Immigration Reform Platform' , another tiny group on the other extreme of this debate, uses a similar ploy. Its real agenda is a White Celtic Ireland. Immigration reform' is a name adopted which is meant to convey a respectable and moderate agenda.

The vast majority of Irish people, whether residents or not, reject both these tiny extremist groupings. Sensible people know that billions of people on this planet have the misfortune to live in poverty or in regimes which practice oppression. They are sensible enough to know that a nation-state of a few million people cannot give refuge or employment to everyone who would come here and claim asylum. They know that our standard of living, social solidarity, and inter-communal harmony depends on immigration being limited, lawful and controlled. Ordinary people know that as far as asylum-seekers are concerned, status should be determined by international law as applied by our UN praised asylum-determination system rather than by the ability to pay large sums of money to traffickers.

The people of Ireland know that redemption for the millions depends on international policies which address the corruption and cruelty of the indigenous elites in Africa and elsewhere. They also know that policies applied in relation to trade will have to change, and that the rich world is not doing half enough in this regard. Beating ordinary people over the head by calling them 'racists' when they disagree with RAR is counterproductive and wrong.

by Gerri Fri Jun 30, 2006 21:44

You state:

Sudan
North Korea
Sierra Leone
Angola
Dem. Rep. of Congo
Haiti
Somalia

"Ireland has deported people to most of these countries, and many more are currently facing deportation to most of those countries. McDowell verified the deportation in a parliamentary question asked by Aengus O'Snodaigh, which should be available online"

I have looked online and cannot see what you describe. Perhaps you could be more specific or better still produce the link which confirms that Ireland has actually deported failed asylum seekers to any of the above countries. Perhaps you are confused between the issuing of a deportation order (which is a notification of proposal to deport from the Irish State under
Section 3 of the Immigration Act 1999) and an actual deportation?

You state:

"As for policy RAR have called for the asylum system to be removed completely from the hands of politicians..."

The Office of the Refugee Applications is staffed by civil servants as is the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. Restrictions are placed on civil servants involvement in political activities. Civil servants are restricted in terms of their freedom to participate in public debate and campaigning for political ends or parties, to ensure public confidence in the political impartiality of the Civil Service. It therefore follows that civil servants as a category are probably more neutral in these matters than most sections of society. While McDowell, a democratically elected TD who carries the Justice portfolio, is the minister who signs deportation orders, he may only do so after applications for asylum have passed through a number of channels not involving politicians.

You state:

"...and put under the control of a body such as the Human Rights Commission who will deal with the asylum system with a human rights approach. RAR have consistently repeated this on indymedia and in the corporate media"

Which Human Rights Commission exactly are you referring to? Is this an Irish body or an international body you propose. Are you suggesting that the current asylum system does not adhere to a human rights agenda in their dealings with applicants for asylum? If so, in what way? As an person knowledgeable on matters relating to asylum you will be aware that the Irish asylum system is based on the United Nation High Commission on Refugees 1951 Convention. Do you or does RAR propose that it is based on something different? If so what would this be.

So far I have asked on a number of occasions for a member of RAR to clarify what they mean by racism, with no reply forthcoming. It is a very simple question that shouldn't be too difficult for them to answer. If RAR or their members/supporters choose to go online and on various media outlets calling European people racists and I quote Emma again:

Solidarity
by Emma-RAR Mon Jun 26, 2006 22:56
Hope it all works out for the men just shows the racist attitude Europe has to asylum seekers.

then they should be prepared to tell those alleged racist Europeans they are referring to exactly how they are being racist.

by P Wed Jul 05, 2006 00:29

Why? Would this not be a tool which would inevitabely increase the number of asylum seekers coming here again? Incidentally, why would this be necessary when we have one of the best systems in the world for dealing with asylum cases (putting my opinions about it aside)?