Reaction the PD's ambitious tax plans?

by Concerned Mon Apr 24, 2006 15:37

I saw Mary Harney on TV last night, she was talking about unions as if they disgusted her. She spoke of them having a "different agenda" to the PDs. Now, I no this should come as no surprise, it's just I'm not used to hearing people say that- bitching about the unions, yes, but knocking the idea of unions in general? Jesus. This person is in power in our country. I've since heard people say, "yes, but she's representing the business interests of Ireland". She's supposed to be representing the people of Ireland.

Tax cuts would be the worst thing to happen for Ireland. We need higher tax for higher earners. I'm so upset that the election is going to be run and won on this issue.

What a horrible bitch.

by Tax payer Mon Apr 24, 2006 16:58

As a middle income tax payer who has been taken to the cleaners for years by our PAYE system I'd welcome further tax cuts. Might even vote for PD's for first time. " Concerned" get over it!!!

by Shipsea Mon Apr 24, 2006 17:49

Add this up:

500 on trolleys in hopistals
atrocious roads
third-world public transport system
dilapidated schools all over the place
negligible recycling
environmental destruction at an all time high
functional illiteracy running at 25%
alcoholism at an all time high
the worst health service in Europe
all public services severely underfunded
workers rights slashed
people with disability legally ghettoised
PLUS
giving away all our natural resources
giving away all our taxes to greedy SSIA investors
PLUS
cutting taxes even further for those who already have more

by Tax payer Mon Apr 24, 2006 18:32

"500 on trolleys in hopistals" - more taxpayers money than ever before has been spent on the publicly run hospital system and it is spent on administrators and bureaucrats while private hospitals are able to provide better serves to the paying customer.
"atrocious roads" - practically every major town in ireland is bypassed. Soon the major cities will be linked by continuous motorways. In fact per head of population Ireland has more milage of roads than many countries in the world. True many roads still are suitable for pont and trap - but thats the road system we inherited from the Brits!
"third-world public transport system" - we have little public or private investment in trains and buses because they are government owned and not run as a proper commercial enterprise and strangled by unionised workers who strike when ever new work practises are introduced.
"dilapidated schools all over the place" - private schools achieve better academic grades because they are run economically
"negligible recycling" - there are few tax incentives given to waste companies to recycle - its cheaper to landfill.
"environmental destruction at an all time high" - our rivers are polluted by farmers supported by EU subsides. Our environment is being damaged because alternative technologies are not yet available - tax incentives will attract investers in alternatives.
"functional illiteracy running at 25%" - that is a social problem of parents not taking the time to insured their own children do their homework and expecting the teachers to nanny their kids.
"alcoholism at an all time high" - In this area heavy taxes would certainly have a postive effect - but government have used the presently high taxes as an important source of revenue anyway - much of it has to do with individual irresonsibility.
"the worst health service in Europe" the same as the first answer about trolleys
"all public services severely underfunded" - traditionally the private sector attracts more talented individuals with higher salaries while the public sectors attracted inefficient lazy unionised labourers - they look after their own interests.
"workers rights slashed" - economic matters inevitably affect employees - if it is more efficient to run a company and save money by introducing technology to replace workers then thats what business do - people are hired and fired all the time and not every job is pleasant or safe or comfortable.
"people with disability legally ghettoised" - in society inevitably able bodied people are more likely to be employed by businesses e.g the cost of modifying workplaces to accept disabled employees. But public places and private businesses are increasingly adapting by installing ramps and wheelchairs.
PLUS
"giving away all our natural resources" - expertise in mining and oil and gas exploration is often concetrated in private companies and the government sells the contracts to them to ensure that resources are used - government companies do not serve the consumers interest, inflate prices and are not interested in competition.
"giving away all our taxes to greedy SSIA investors" - those "greedy" SSIA investors are ordinary people who have the right to invest their hard earned money and should be entitled to recieve their money for their own use to spend it as they wish rather than to have it stolen by the government who taxes us plenty enough with vat and motor taxes and public service charges.
PLUS
"cutting taxes even further for those who already have more" - big business employs hundreds of thousands of workers in Ireland who operate here because of our competitive tax policies - many of them will move to other countries to save money and leaving our workforce high and dry if we radically increase taxes.

Our people emigrated to America and elsewhere in the early and mid 1980's because they didnt have the basketcase economy we had in Ireland with high taxes, high government spending and borrowing. The economic policies from the late 1980's and the 1990's continued to this very day have been at the root of our economic growth so much as that instead of receiving handouts from the EU they now receive handouts from us.

I don't want to pay taxes just because a bunch of diehard commies dream of "social justice" and "public services".

I'm all for public/private partnership - the public sector serves the private sector and the private individual - not the other way around.

by Tax payer Mon Apr 24, 2006 18:41

I'm not against unions per say.
I'm against unions especially those in companies like Irish Rail who strike whenever the company wants to restructure provide an efficient service to the public - the disgusting behaviour of ignorant ticket sellers, checkers and train conductors beggers believe and the filth of clapped out coaches is simply ridiculous, the trains never EVER run on time and if you complain you are treated with UTTER contempt - I say privatise the railways and why the hell is there no direct rail line from Cork to Derry via Galway or why is there not a direct rail line from Cork to Belfast via Athlone rather than being forced to go the whole way to Dublin? Why because Irish Rail do not face competition and can hold their customers hostage

by John - dunaree2000 Mon Apr 24, 2006 20:18

TaxPayer's comments are by far the most sensible I've ever read on this site. Every word he/she writes is true. I could not possibly express the sentiments as well as he/she has. It may interest TaxPayer to know that the claims by the Left that the Irish health service is failing are completely false. Its a left-wing myth. Having lost every argument on the economy in the 80s, the Left decided its way to power was to ensure that the economy, the full employment, the growth rates far superior to any other country would be ignored as election issues. Instead the plan was to make health the big issue, if possible the only issue, in the election and then to bombard the country with false claims that the Irish health service was the worst in Europe. Undoubtedly there is room for improvement. TaxPayer has outlined some ways in which this can be done, more use of private hospitals etc. But, overall the Irish health service is performing very well. I research in this area and know what I'm talking about. When comparing health services in different countries the key thing to measure is the countries' mortality rates. If one country has a higher mortality rate than another, then chances are its health service is worse. In 1986 mortality rates in Ireland were the highest in Europe apart from some of the socialist countries in eastern Europe and about 20 per cent above the European average. In the past decade mortality rates in Ireland have fallen dramatically. In 2005 mortality rates in Ireland fell below the European average for the first time. In 1986 mortality rates in Ireland were 10 per cent higher than in Denmark. In 2005 they were 10 per cent lower than in Denmark. If Ireland had the same mortality rates as Denmark has now, there would be 3,000 extra deaths annually in Ireland. Denmark's health service is almost completely public. Private healthcare is virtually unknown. Doesn't that tell you something?

by Don't trust the PDs! Tue Apr 25, 2006 13:22

I wouldn't trust the PDs an inch - they say they will reduce the top rate of income tax, but what they don't say is that they will raise indirect taxes to make up for the lost tax receipts (ie regressive taxes that hit low and average income earners hardest). Rates will probably also be brought back.

by Cormac Eile Thu Jul 13, 2006 19:51

Lads,

The policy of lowering taxation has proven to be very effective in creating growth and entrepreneurship in this country.

If you think that higher income taxes are the answer, you have absolutely no memory of the 1980's when taxes were astronomical. This country was a cesspit, and was going nowhere, until we started to cut income tax, and to insist on a conservative economic policy in which we forced ourselves to earn more than we spent. In this way two things happened, we rapidly cut our national debt, and our economy started to grow.

I graduated from University in the mid-90's, and at that time over 65% of my class was expected to emigrate. That is just 10 years ago.

Higher taxation does nothing but slow down an economy, and causes capital and companies to move overseas.

"Taxing the rich" is the biggest load of bullshit, and it is constantly trotted out. Wealth tax, property tax, etc., as if there is some huge windfall to be harvested year in year out. If such regressive taxes were to be implemented, an increased tax take might be experienced in year 1. But by year 3 all those people will have pulled their wealth out of Ireland, and will have it working for them elsewhere. This means that not only will there be no source for "wealth tax", but many other taxes will fall away too, including stamp duties, income taxes, amongst others.

While I'm at it, when we read reports about "the wealthy" who "paid no tax" this year, the reporters are either stupid, or being entirely disingenuous. Tax can only ever be deferred, and this can only be achieved in Ireland by taking advantage of some tax efficient programme sponsored by the Revenue and aimed at boosting some element of our economy, culture, or society. The fact is that the Revenue don't give away tax. They take the tax at the end of an investment period, on the basis that they get a greater piece of cash at the end than they would have otherwise. For example, say a person earned €100, and owed the tax man €10 (for arguments sake) out of these earnings. He could pay the tax man this money, or he could take advantage of a government scheme designed to boost, say the film industry, or Opera in this country. He could arrange with the revenue that he would invest his capital (€100), for a period of 5 years in Opera. During this time, he believed he'd make another €50, of which he'd owe the tax man €5. Now the tax man gets both the €10 and the €5, which is more than they'd have got otherwise. The investor can't touch the money in the meantime. So for each of 5 years, he'd pay no tax on the money, but would pay all the tax in the final year. It is a more efficient use of his capital, and is much more efficient for the Revenue. Once that particular scheme is no longer paying back, then the revenue can (and does) revoke approval, so that any subsequent investor can no longer shelter from tax in this way.

The benefit of this is that the government can encourage the application of private capital into ventures that would otherwise be less attractive. It can be very effective.

So it is a load of bollox to say that a "rich person" hasn't paid tax.

With regard to "tax exiles", attempting to tax them will also be completely futile, as they'll simply move their assets out of the country and out of reach.

Raising indirect taxes is an insidious and disgraceful activity. It is actually in breach of PD principles. Either stealth taxes are a Fianna Fail initiative, or the PDs are slipping on their philosophy.

Stealth taxes are all around us. The toll roads for example. In this country we pay tax on cars multiple times. There is a charge to bring a new car off a ferry of a couple of hundred euro, then there is an import duty applied (calculated on the value of the car as decided by customs, not based on what you actually paid), then VRT. At this point, the cost of the car has doubled. After this we get to pay our annual motor taxes. Before harmonisation recently, cars imported into Ireland were cheaper than anywhere in Europe, which is funny, because we pay some of the highest prices in Europe. These prices are held artificially high due to the exorbitant taxes. We're now being forced to pay more, by paying massive tolls too. This is a massive tax.

Other taxes that are imposed on services for which we've already paid include bin charges. We've already paid for this in our income tax. Water tax is around the corner. Councils are stealthily reintroducing rates.

With the rate this is going, we'll soon be back in the 70's, with the wonderful scenes of social poverty and fly-tipping.

If the other lot get in, this will happen even faster.

The last time the "Rainbow" were in, they appointed a communist to be Minister of State in the Dept of Finance, and then in the Dept of Enterprise and Employment. Fitzgerald was unbelievably naive about managing an economy. She thought she could create more jobs by restricting a workers choice to work longer hours. What a muppet.

(Just before you go off on one, the 48 Hour working time directive allowed for states to give workers the option to work longer hours if they so wished. Eithne thought that if she restricted this, then she would magically create two jobs out of one!). It could not possibly have achieved this, and all she'd have done is restricted the earning capacity of people. I know of one family in particular who suffered terribly as a result of this. ZERO impact was shouldered by business, as she'd have known if she had an ounce of sense.

With regard to unions. I negotiated with union officials from all the major unions in Ireland, and I have to say that the vast majority of senior officials don't give a toss about their members. Most are just in it for what they can get out of it. I had conversations away from the negotiating table with union officials, some of whom are now very senior, in which they declared that they didn't care what occurred to their members involved in the particular dispute.

It is the unions whose members have soaked up the massive extra funding gone into the health service, by insisting on more and more back office staff. This means that less and less of the funds go to actual frontline staff who provide the care. The Public Service unions are a major problem in this country.

As a member of the public it is stupid to think that the Public Service or Private Industry unions intend to do society good. They intend to look after the welfare of their members, and they don't give a toss about the consequences for society.

And our public service is probably the most mollycoddled public service in the world.

As for the notion that public services are underfunded, this is only true of education and transport. The former, because it is easy to cut or restrict funds to education, the latter because of union strangulation and bloodsucking. All other public services are heavily funded, and inefficiently run. As it is impossible to make a civil servant redundant, our public services are replete with useless people, and redundant "services".

I resent paying tax to support those people in non-jobs.