the secret fund

Tuesday June 25, 2002 10:36

by Simon Basketter - swp

The comptroller and auditor general does the government accounts. Every year he goes before the Public Accounts Committee to answer questions in this there is the secret fund questions. The secret fund is the funding for the Irish secret service. Below the debate on the secret funds

Committee of Public Accounts

2000
Chairman: Mr. Mullarkey, I will offer you an opportunity to say a few introductory words. While we do not go into great detail about the Secret Service Vote because of its nature, are you satisfied there are proper controls in place to ensure public money cannot go astray under the guise of secrecy?

Mr. Mullarkey: There has been no change in relation to the Secret Service Vote from the 1920s. The same procedures are in place to deal with cases, where a Minister confirms to the Minister for Finance that money is required for the purposes appropriate to the Secret Service Vote. There is a procedure within the Department involving signature and countersignature of the relevant cheque. I am happy there has been no dilution of the controls applying to the Secret Service Vote.

Chairman: Is a Minister required to certify that request for money to you or to somebody else?

Mr. Mullarkey: The Minister who seeks funds is required to certify that request and that certification is seen by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Chairman: Is that sufficient?

Mr. Mullarkey: Yes, that has always been sufficient.

Mr. Meade: The audit certificate from the Comptroller and Auditor General is unusual in that it states he has been furnished with certificates from the responsible Minister, which support the payments shown in the accounts. On the basis of those certificates, he certifies the account. By its nature the Secret Service is very secret. The onus is put on responsible Ministers. The cheques issued are under very strict instructions in the Department of Finance and that is how it has evolved in Irish and UK Administrations over the years.
Chairman: The Comptroller and Auditor General does not check beyond the certificates?

Mr. Meade: No, he does not.

Chairman: Could he do so if he wanted?

Mr. Meade: We have not found any reason to do that.

1999

Mr. Bell: Will Mr. Hurley describe the Secret Service? I have been a member of Dáil committees for 20 years and I have yet to discover who constitutes the Secret Service. Where is it located? How many people, male and female, are involved? What is the function of the service?

Mr. J. Hurley: This is probably secret.

Mr. Bell: That is why I ask the question.

Mr. J. Hurley: The Vote is termed Secret Service and Ministers can apply for funding from this Vote in the course of the year. They sign a requisition which is sent to the Department and the Minister in question justifies it. The Minister for Finance must approve it and there is a special accounting arrangement attached to it which the Comptroller and Auditor General operates. His notation is different for this Vote from other Votes because he essentially certifies the processes have been fulfilled rather than the content of expenditure which he does not deal with.
This is something which has been discussed in the Dáil and dates back a long period. The reasons for the procedures are the nature of the topic. I will not say any more about it.
Deputy Bell: Could they be described as Irish spies?

Mr. J. Hurley: The answer is I do not know. It is for whatever the Ministers in question seek funding.

Deputy Bell: Why was £434,293 of the allocation of £735,000 withdrawn to the Department? Have we only half a secret service?

Mr. J. Hurley: That is an issue that has been discussed in the Dáil. The reason there is always a generous figure for this Estimate is that it is not regarded as convenient to have to take a Supplementary Estimate on this in the course of the year. That is why there is usually a fair margin between the amount provided in the Vote and the amount expended. This specific aspect has been discussed in the Dáil and it was felt this was the approach which should be adopted.

Deputy Bell: I asked the question and I am not sure Mr. Hurley answered it in full about where these people are located.

Mr. J. Hurley: It could be in any Department but primarily and normally the Departments would be Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Defence. Any Department could apply for these funds if it has sufficient reason.

Deputy Bell: Are they paid over and above the rate? I assume these people do a job. Are they conscripted or recruited into the Secret Service and paid separately?

Mr. J. Hurley: I would not have any information on that.

Deputy Bell: Does anyone know the answer to that?
Mr. J. Hurley: I am sure the parent Ministers would be aware of the answers but the Department of Finance and the Comptroller and Auditor General do not have that information.

Deputy Bell: I will not ask any more questions.

Deputy Rabbitte: I remember a civil servant I could never find. He probably has the information.

1998

Deputy C. Lenihan: I think we should look at Vote 12 itself. The Secretary General has been batting away like a Minister for the past half hour on inflation and other matters. I am intrigued and amused that our Secret Service fund was estimated at £745,000 this year and actually gave a surplus back to the Exchequer as it only spent £327,000. Is this another sign of the wonderful things being done in Government, that we no longer even need the Secret Service and that it has become superbly efficient and is now returning money to the Exchequer?

Deputy Durkan: The ending of the Cold War has led to a reduction in its activity.

Deputy C. Lenihan: What is happening out there?

Chairman: There is a tradition that we do not ask questions.

Mr. J. Hurley: There was an increase in the Secret Service fund a few years ago because there was a possibility that a Supplementary Estimate might be required. We have tried historically to avoid a Supplementary Estimate for the Secret Service Vote because that would negate the whole purpose of the Vote. For that reason, there was an increase in the funding available to the Secret Service and, as a result, there is a higher level of saving than there might otherwise be. It is for a good reason.

Deputy C. Lenihan: Our democracy is safe.