TELL RYANAIR TO CALL OFF PRESS LAUNCH WITH NAZI JORG HAIDER!

by chris - ucd socialist Sat Jun 22, 2002 20:06

whats new,

its not like ryanair give a shit about anone
ripped off passengers (i once got a ticket for a non existant flight no less-but enjoyed the £3.50 meal voucher) pissed off workforce (the de-unionised ones, not the millionair$)a 3rd rate enviromental record (some boeing 737-200 s date back to the 60s and are known as "smokies" , also numerous sound pollution violations) and lest we forget the aiirline with the most near misses in irish airspace?

its not surprising that ryanair management hang around with facists,im sure michael o leary and his croniesthink nazi germans were "well organised " too

-c

by Venus Sun Jun 23, 2002 00:25

Hi,yeah this is very sad indeed, I will be in london, there is a demo organised , and will do my best on the day and another idea is to paint nazi signs on the windows of headquarters on the day,and hand out some leaflets saying why to the good olde passers by.
hope everyone had a great solstice ,
Stonehenge was awesome,
lots of love
Venus and frodo
that Nazi sign was a peace symbol turned backwards, twisted!

by snapping Sun Jun 23, 2002 04:41

Today I saw swpers handing out flyers saying Haider=hitler and ryanair, ayranair, but I remeber last december when they advertised ryanair to go to the anti capitalist demo in brussells!!!!! even phoneix picked up on it! shame on you, you opportunistic wankers.

by buddy buddy Sun Jun 23, 2002 13:51

Is nothing happening anymore?

This site used to have a point.

now look at it.
Losers giving out about fucking Ryanair.

I mean so much is going on in the world and you are giving out about ryanair promoting a new services.

Did your mother never tell you about if you dont have anything constructive to say?

by Myles Sun Jun 23, 2002 14:04

Funny. When people expose the SWP dirty tricks there is always someone who tells us to shut up. By your own logic, buddy buddy, stop wasting your time on this newswire. Go out there and smash capitalism!

by yeah right Sun Jun 23, 2002 14:08

After the failure of Globalise Resistance the SWP tries to relaunch its alterantive front ANL.
Beware those membership cards.

by r&b Sun Jun 23, 2002 15:05

if hitler = haider shouldn't the swp be arming their comrades in austria? What a stupid slogan, and if ryanair = ayranair I presume swpers won't be using it and advertisaing it to go to demos. Flying ayranair to demonstrate against capitalism, I'd say michael o'leary loves it. idiots!

by Phuq Hedd Sun Jun 23, 2002 20:24

I have no time for the SWP, but I have to say that I don't see what is wrong with their protest against Jorg Haider being used as a publicist for RyanAir. Obviously the "Hitler=Haider" slogan is hyperbolic and might make some people sneer, but it would be less catchy to write "Hitler = fascist that espouses anti-foreigner, anti-immigrant, racist policies and is involved with many people that think that Hitler was great".

I also don't see the point in attacking the SWP for flying RyanAir to demos. Everything in this system is tainted by some sort of reason to avoid using it if we can. There are few "pure" ways of living. Sure you can live in a bender on your own home-grown vegetables, but that's not what many of us have the guts to do.

Stick to doing what you can: bicycle instead of drive if it's an option. Buy Fair Trade if you can afford it. Fly with some "nice" corporation if you can afford it. Etc., but bear in mind that none of those options is "pure". Your bicycle was probably made by non-unionised workers in Taiwan and its prodcution contributed to environmental destruction (metal mining and purification, rubber extraction, paint, electricity), even if your bike was union-made then the people making it are wage-slaves being exploited by the bosses.

Don't get lost in the trap of trying to be pure. Don't bash the SWP for organising their own campaigns. That's great. They should organise their own stuff. The problem with the SWP is their attempt to take over other people's campaigns or to give themselves "front names" so that people unwittingly get involved in their campaigns.

(Never thought I'd be defending the SWP, but fair's fair!).

by Des Sun Jun 23, 2002 22:38

Politically it is incorrect to describe Haider or his party as Nazis, they are a ultra right wing populist formation. Using such language to describe Haider is typical SWP. However I have no problem with a protest at any event at which he is putting in an appearance.

by red - sp Mon Jun 24, 2002 02:02

its one thing to fly ryanair its another to, as an organisation, as the swp did advertise them. And there was an alternative, socialist youth organised a bus to go to brussels which wasn't filled. The SWP advised people from GR to go by ryanair rather than go on the SY bus. There is a big difference there. They didn't trust there own comrades on a SY bus! which says a lot. But the point is they now come out against ryanair when own two months ago they were (and are now really!) advertsing them. This is serious opportunisim.

by Amused Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:38

I didn't know there was such a thing as a workers bus or do nice capitalists own the busses and not so nice the airlines?

by IST Supporter Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:40

In all of this I am reminded of an broad example from history, that is, the sealed train Lenin and his political supporters took from Switzerland to Finland Station in the city of St. Petersburg in 1917 to partake in the Russian Revolution. Now that train had been organised by the German Army General Staff as far as I can remember and Lenin took the opportunity to escape the “infernal Swiss cookcoo clock” as he referred to his entrapment in Switzerland to return to Russia. Now it could be said at that time, that he sold out his political principles to take a train given to him by an imperialist country in Europe at that time and was a German spy in reality, a common accusation at that time.

My point being? He had to return to Russia by any means necessary to reorganise the political party that he was a leading member of, the Bolshevik Party and took whatever option he had to get to his home country. Although the situation is nothing like that in Europe during 1917 and it is totally unlikely that a military power would transport political radicals in secret to another enemy country even if they thought it would be to their benefit, today people have to get to big political events by anyway they can, including taking non-union transport sadly (bus/train/air). Its true to ask if that bus company hired by Socialist Youth to take people to Brussels was a union company. If not, then we are both as bad as each other.

From what I can remember of the transport arrangements to the December demo, GR was informed too late that a bus had been organised as well to go to Brussels, and that people who had elected to go by plane couldn’t put out of the group booking that had been made. Wasn’t it more important that an alternative option had been organised too by SY? Anyway, as far as I know, the ground staff in Ryanair who had been involved in the attempt to unionise with SIPTU said that it was OK to still fly by Ryanair if people had too since it was the cheapest air option.

That’s all I can say on the matter,

by OK Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:28

The reason why SWP went on Ryanair to Brussels is because they do not like the SP.

SP organised that bus well in advance. The Ryanair flight was organised very late when SWP realised that they were "losing out" to SP. It was nothing more than petty sectarianism.

I also think that the fact CWI (SP) are bigger in Belguim was a reason.

SWP are opportunistic in the extreme. There latest 'Aryanair' stunt is typical. Im also interested to see if 'Anti-Nazi League' is going to be re-launched. If it is I hope that there will be democracy in it.

by what? Mon Jun 24, 2002 13:23

IST supporter: are you saying that Joe Carolan is the new Lenin?
We are all laughing.

by curious Mon Jun 24, 2002 14:06

So are the SP open to working with the SWP?

by OK - SP Mon Jun 24, 2002 16:14

The SP work with all genuine left groups. The SWP are not genuine when they go into campaigns. They care more about recruiting to their own party.

The Anti-Bin Charges campaign is a prime example. In the Dún Laoghaire area you dropped work in this campaign like a hot patato as soon as the Anti-War work began.

I could go on forever about the method and tactics of the SWP but most people on the left know for themselves.

The main reason why SWP leadership issued the decree that GR & SWP members were not to go on the SY bus to Brussels last december was because they realised that when compared to each other SP are far better than SWP. SP has a more vibrant youth and has support from ordinary people.

by IST Supporter Mon Jun 24, 2002 16:19

sorry if the first part was clear enough for you, what I was trying to get at this that this group of Russian political radicals, including Lenin, did a bit of a "Ryanair" job, if you like, when they decided to avail of the offer to be transported in a closed train, provided by the German Army, to get them to Petersburg, the centre of the Russian Revolution in 1917.

So to highlight the point again, there’s little use in being purist about things like transport when, like others have said, is as much under the control of the rich and powerful in this world and we have to use their means of transport to get us places in a hurry.

Again, if the SWP in Ireland was afraid to mix the CWI in Brussels, we won't have gone with the GR group. I'm sure that at the European Social Forum, both our tendencies will be mixing together as a socialist block of sorts, along with the French LCR and others.

by still laughing Mon Jun 24, 2002 17:42

This is even funnier than the Lenin's bit:

"Again, if the SWP in Ireland was afraid to mix the CWI in Brussels, we won't have gone with the GR group"

by Brian Cahill Tue Jun 25, 2002 16:40

The Socialist Party is willing to work with any socialists or working class activists. Through bitter experience though we are more cautious about working with some people than with others. The SWP tops that list.

That doesn't mean that we won't work with the SWP. It just means that we know not to trust them. Or rather that we know we can trust them to do whatever they think will bring them the greatest short term organisational gains. Everyone else who has been involved in any campaign with them knows the score on this one.

Trying to work with them reminds me a little of that childrens story about the scorpion asking the otter to help it cross the stream:

The scorpion asks the otter to help it across a stream. "No way!", says the otter "You will sting me and then I will die".

The scorpion replies "But if I sting you and you die, then I will drown." So the otter agrees to carry the scorpion.

Halfway across the river, the scorpion stings the otter, dooming them both to die. "Why did you do that?" asks the otter, "now you will drown".

"What did you expect?" said the scorpion. "I'm a scorpion".

by hs - sp Wed Jun 26, 2002 00:41

My point is the sheer irony of it all. No other group in the world I could imagine would launch an anti ryanair campaign only a couple of months after advising members and non members not to take the bus (and tell them about how wonderful ra are). Did you think no one would notice? Your a laughing stock I will never take you anyway seriously again.
As for Lenins sealed train, if your comparing a 30,00 strong protest in brussells to the russian revolution I don't know what to say.
Again I'll say its one thing to use a plane but to advise people to go on it when there was an alternative, for political reasons, and only a few months later this!!!!!
And lenin if you remeber had no other way of getting to russia I'm sure if an SY bus was going he would have come along!!!!!!

As for the cwi working with the sp, did you ever wonder why, well this is why!

We go to a swp march you won't let us speak at them, at an ANL march two years ago and a anti racscism (under another name, deportations or something) your party refused outright to let joe higgins speak (at one you said there wasn't enough room for him to stand on the platform!!!! Richard Boyd barrett). Then you wonder why we won't give you our name for elections. what on earth do you expect!

by Simon Basketter - SWP Wed Jun 26, 2002 12:05

A lot of exclamation marks in this thread, anyway:
On Ryanair: Ryanair is using Haider to promote itself is either worthy of protest or it isn’t.

On the bus -- sorry bus!!!!: I remember the bus non-event. At a GR meeting when members of the SP turned up, which they do occasionally. There was a discussion of a joint bus to Brussels. That didn't happen. The reason? Ryanair gold? Determination to destroy the anti-capitalist movement internationally? No simpler the comrades from the Socialist Party wanted to go to a conference after the Brussels march which meant the whole thing took a day longer. Most people from GR who went to Brussels didn't want to take the extra time so took a flight.

As for the supposed grand conspiracies I remember giving the number of the Socialist Party to people who rang me about transport to Brussels I also told them Ryanair was the cheapest way to fly to Belgium. Advertising? For a number of protests GR has provided information about how to get there. A number of groups did this for Seville. Advertising is a rather odd way to describe it.
On such things does the left remain small.

On scorpions and the “cwi working with the SP” (!!!!!)

The Socialist Party and the SWP have a long history and a lot of baggage between them, and not all of it is as bad as people like to make out but there is a history of hostility.

The question is what to do about it. For a while now the SWP has been open about what we think should happen. We want work with the SP, who, where and in what way we can all work out together, but we should talk about it. Our argument is, while it would be good for both organizations, more importantly it would be very good for the development of a left alternative here.

The first time this came up a few years ago, we wrote letter asking for a meeting they wrote a long pamphlet denouncing us. We tried again last year and are trying again.

There are of course disagreements between the SWP and the SP (The solutions in Palestine springs to mind). But none of them should preclude joint work.

I make a simple proposition.
The Nice referendum is coming up. The pre-dominate argument against it can be a Nationalist or a Socialist one. The prospects for the left arguments being at the forefront of debate about neo-liberalism and militarism in Europe are presumably something both organizations view as a good.

I think there should be a joint socialist campaign against Nice. Who should be in it, what its platform is can all be worked out. But talking about it wouldn’t be a bad thing would it? You can not trust us, dislike us, but it is simple, should and SP talk about working together to defeat the Nice referendum?

by simon basketter - swp Wed Jun 26, 2002 12:10

I think there should be a joint socialist campaign against Nice. Who should be in it, what its platform is can all be worked out. But talking about it wouldn’t be a bad thing would it? You can not trust us, dislike us, but it is simple, should the SWP and SP talk about working together to defeat the Nice referendum?

by OK Wed Jun 26, 2002 16:35

The SWP in their election campaign opportunisticly had misleading posters. Your posters proclaimed "Vote Socialist", with a small logo of your party in the corner. To most ordinary people "Vote Socialist" means voting for the SP. You deliberatly chose that slogan to get votes off people thinking they were voting for SP. I'd say most of the small vote you did get were people that would have voted SP if they were standing in their constituencies.

The SWP are a tiny insignificant group that alienate themselves from ordinary people. The SP would loose credibility if it went into a joint campaign on Nice. The SWP have more to gain be being seen to be alongside the SP which has a real base among ordinary people.

Anyway, the SWP rarely mention Socialism, the SP will be arguing against Nice from a Socialist perspective. SP will be making points about the true nature of the EU as a capitalist entity. SWP are likely to go down the Green-Nationalist-Petty Bourgeois route of arguing about neutrality.

by Observer Wed Jun 26, 2002 17:41

It'd be very stupid of the Socialist Party to taint its good reputation by getting ivnolved with the dreaded SWP.

by hs - sp Wed Jun 26, 2002 19:00

On scorpions and the “cwi working with the SP” (!!!!!)

"The question is what to do about it. For a while now the SWP has been open about what we think should happen. We want work with the SP, who, where and in what way we can all work out together, but we should talk about it. Our argument is, while it would be good for both organizations, more importantly it would be very good for the development of a left alternative here."

How about letting us have speakers at your front marches for starters? You keep talking like this but in practice that is how you behave.
I don't know if it would be good for us, you have a very bad reputation and alienate practicaly everyone you meet. Look at the RTS demo recently, look at what happened with the housing action campaign, the socialist alliance and what happened to GR. You have an incredible knack of insulting and demeaning everyone you meet. I don't want to be associated with that.

"The first time this came up a few years ago, we wrote letter asking for a meeting they wrote a long pamphlet denouncing us. We tried again last year and are trying again. "

Alot of us have worked on campaigns with you before, due to our experience we do not trust you. Simply calling for unity while continuing to act the way you do only makes it worse. I trust you even less when while calling for unity you refused to let JH speak. I would personally take alot of convincing to see my party ally with you.

On the letter, after years of accusing us of being "reformists" and all sorts of things you finally decided (after joes election) to hop on the bandwagon. But of course you were different to us and were doing in a different non reformist way. We still weren't real socialists. Then another typical swp backflip and you want to go on a joint ticket. No explanation to why you changed your minds at all. And can we believe you, is it another front? is it another campaign to recruit and then drop it?
So we said no, and explained excatly why and excatly why we don't want to be associated with you. I advise you to re read it. Notice both the is in belfast and socialist alternatives statements about you make the same points. And they were in your party.

"There are of course disagreements between the SWP and the SP (The solutions in Palestine springs to mind). But none of them should preclude joint work. "

I will work with anyone as long as the campaign is democratic and I can have a part of the decision making. but that is the problem isn't it? All nice talk but the oppisite in practice.
The SWP says "trust us" well I don't I need more than trust. I need democratic rules, but what happened to the SA in England? Again trust us, but no rules to make sure. In wales it seems you've succeded in killing the SAs newspaper.

"I make a simple proposition.
The Nice referendum is coming up. The pre-dominate argument against it can be a Nationalist or a Socialist one. The prospects for the left arguments being at the forefront of debate about neo-liberalism and militarism in Europe are presumably something both organizations view as a good. "

Will you argue on a socialist platform? I have my doubhts, you argued on a nationalist program on NI. What is your position on nice? You have a habit of opportunistically hoping on whatever bandwagon is handy. Will you call for a socialist europe?

"I think there should be a joint socialist campaign against Nice. Who should be in it, what its platform is can all be worked out. But talking about it wouldn’t be a bad thing would it? You can not trust us, dislike us, but it is simple, should the SWP and SP talk about working together to defeat the Nice referendum? "

talk away comrade but it will take a lot to convince me. speaking one way and acting a different makes it worse. You should really look at your mnethods. When I first got involved in politics I thought excatly as you. it was only after we worked together I changed my mind. And I have seen little so far to see any great change. That is with the SA and GR and now the relaunch of the ANL.

by Simon Basketter - SWP Thu Jun 27, 2002 09:58 sbasketter at yahoo dot com

Lenin was fond of retelling a story by Tolstoy. While walking through a park and he saw a man who was moving in strange erratic ways. Convinced the man was mad he moved closer, when he got close enough he could see the man was sharpening a knife.

From a distance the Irish left looks mad, what is not yet clear is when you get close is whether it is just mad or perhaps it has been sharpening knives only to stab itself in the back.

At one level I am confused by the responses. I was expecting a level of bile and list of the SWPs sins, it is the indymedia newswire after all, but I hoped at worst for consistent bile and at best perhaps a straightforward response.

Are you saying you will never work with the SWP – ever, in some cases, won’t talk about or will talk about it? Should SWP & SP members pull out of those places where they do work together?

By the way I didn’t suggest we merge our organizations, I asked if there was reason why the SP wouldn’t want to talk about fighting the Nice referendum jointly. At what level that joint work would be, how things would be decided would come out of the discussion. But it would require discussion.

Symptomatic is we ‘opportunisticly had misleading posters. Your posters proclaimed "Vote Socialist",’ two paragraphs later the “SWP rarely mention Socialism”. Ah well I suppose it’s meant to be polemical.

“Tiny”, “insignificant” –. A bit better than that perhaps, but the reality is that the left in Ireland is small. It is likely to remain so unless it gets its act together.

On the referendum the response to me saying we need a socialist rather than a nationalist response to the Nice referendum is to say the SWP has a nationalist position on Nice!

The reasons for arguing for some sort of unity are that it is clear, to all but the more depressed blinkered parts of the left, that not only are we in a period of political instability but there is an opportunity for building of a left response. But the growth of that left response is not automatic.

I presumed that something straight forward and relatively short-term like the Nice referendum would provide a opportunity for moving forward. I hold that a joint socialist campaign against Nice would be a good thing. It would increase the prospect of defeating the referendum. And it would be good for the left in general and could lay the basis for building stronger opposition to this neo-liberal government.
Of course, just cos it is a good idea doesn’t mean it will happen but not to find out if it is possible seems obtuse to me.

by blisset Thu Jun 27, 2002 13:38

Why do party leaderships SP SWP GREENS discuss these issues on the wires with everyone else? Are they afraid of open and transparent and openly available debate.

The left in Ireland (or at least the online ones willing to argue and bitch and complain on here) is arguing about who did what when about a fucking bus and making references to who talked to who about what where and using intitals of Unions/Groups from other countries.

Meanwhile no-one discusses NICE which will be a nightmare for the Irish left as all sections on the No side will be demonised actively by the entire European political apparatus from now till never and that apparatus will win hands down if the left here dosen't start to get their shit together.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Thu Jun 27, 2002 17:39

Firstly the straight-forward response you ask for: Send your proposals, or proposals about proposals or whatever, in writing to the Socialist Party. They will be discussed democratically and you will get an answer.

What kind of answer you get will very probably depend on what kind of proposals you make.

My personal view is that I would be opposed to some kind of straight Socialist Party - SWP pact for the campaign. The SWP just don't matter enough for it to be worth the undoubted hassle having to deal with your antics causes.

On the other hand I would be more open to the idea of a broader socialist campaign bringing in wider forces including the Workers Party, the Irish Socialist Network, the Workers and Unemployed Action Group, possibly the people around Finian McGrath and so on. The WUAG, WP and McGrath each demonstrated, of course, that they have rather more support than the SWP at the recent elections. How willing each of these groups would be to get involved and how willing they would be willing to make an openly socialist case is of course up to them.

As Simon points out, Socialist Party members do cooperate with SWP members in some campaigns. Such cooperation can sometimes be useful but it is constrained by the nature of the SWP. You don't have any influence amongst working class people anywhere. You are prone to bizarre changes of tone, swinging from screaming about revolution one minute to dropping all mention of socialism or the working class the next. You can only be relied upon to work on a campaign only until a shinier source of recruits and paper sales wander past and to trample over any notions of democracy to get your own way. And of course your assessments of the world around us normally owe more to your fantasies than to reality - apparantly we are living in the 1930s in slow motion and the anti-capitalist movement could be shaking the world capitalism system within the next two years.

It would be nice to work in a collaborative and open way with the SWP, it just isn't possible very often.

You make reference to the hostility your party attracts on this newswire. I'm glad you have noticed. Do you think it is some kind of accident that the SWP is regarded as viciously sectarian by all sections of the Irish left? It isn't, you know. Your organisation has spent years building mistrust. Crying crocodile tears about how we should all hold hands together is obviously going to be regarded with scepticism.

by badman Fri Jun 28, 2002 20:49

Hi guys,

It seems that I missed the notice about the ANL meeting which decided that Ryanair was going to be picketed. As a member of the ANL, I'd like to know when the meeting was held, how it was publically advertised, how the decision was made, what the ANL has been upto for the last few years and when the next membership meeting is happening.

Am I missing something?

by hs - sp Sat Jun 29, 2002 04:05

you didn't answer even one question I asked. I may support working with your party if you do. But you must at least try to answe at least some of the questions. so far u have said nothing. i may be convinced but you at least have to try!!!!!