Peace Activist to Contest European Election in East Constituency

by peace fan Fri May 07, 2004 16:37

good luck don't mind the begrudgers

by supportive Fri May 07, 2004 17:01

Well done Eoin. Good to have a candidate with principles, without all the usual party political dross.
Best of luck with the campaign.

by Meath Anti-War Head Fri May 07, 2004 17:16

....has posters up all over Meath.
Bit premature that. Hit them were it hurts Eoin, in the pocket.
Best of luck

by Raymond McInerney Fri May 07, 2004 18:48

Aim for the highest and still be grounded. Be well rested and the whole experience will go smoothly.

Running in elections is very enjoyable.

by by anti commie head Fri May 07, 2004 20:43

I welcome Eoins candidacy, because it will show how unpopular this movement is. You indymedia people are very brave behind a typrwriter, and feel superior to anyone who has an alternative viewpoint. Case in point- anytime an estblished party puts forward a document, instead of debating the merits of the proposal, this site degenerates into abuse and namecalling. I look forward to Eoins lack ofsuccess, and Joe Higgins heroic failure to come anywhere near an MEP seat

by Fine Gaeler Fri May 07, 2004 23:04

this is brilliant news, as it will fragment the left wing vote even furhter.

We now have 3 left wing candidates from south leinster, Dwyer, White & Dubsky - they'll fragment the vote massively & hit Cassells hard.

With luck this will allow Fine Gael to pick up a second seat. Unfortunately it is more likely to allow Kirk to pick up a second seat for FF.

However, as always the statement & ego is more important than the result to the left.

Hopefully you'll keep this up and the EPP will take 300 seats.

by commie Fri May 07, 2004 23:26

the abuse is evenly spread - if anything the left is more abused because they post more than right parties by a factor of about 100 to 1

by paul o toole Sat May 08, 2004 02:38

hats off to you. just want to wish you well and hope to see you in Europe-the very best of luck

by Bev Class Act Sat May 08, 2004 03:06

Well?

by iosaf Sat May 08, 2004 11:56

we presume Eoin will be compyling all electoral guidlelines on spending limits, declaring corporate sponsership and so on.
Best of Luck. If you get your deposit back, and surivive the local radio shows and FF/FG cunmann dirty tactics, I'll be inspired to run against Bertie (in his own constituency) for the next general election backed up by all brats of the XXI europress as a "non-resident Irish Euro Neutrality candidate" or something similar.
& I have less qualms about the dirty stuff.

by conor - yfg Sat May 08, 2004 15:11

I dont agree with most of your politics, but I admire anyone who puys themselves before the electorate.
P.S. where can I read an electronic version of your manifesto Eoin? Thanks

by Chekov Sat May 08, 2004 16:47

I'm sorry to say so, but I think that this is a vanity project pure and simple. What on earth is the use for the anti-war cause or the environmental cause of voting for Eoin? I can only see it as a way of raising his _personal_ profile. To the best of my knowledge, Eoin represents no movement or party. He has neither sought nor received the endorsement of any groups or organisations for his candidacy. He has not raised the proposal of running anti-war candidates with any of the anti-war groupings in the country. He is even less accountable than the various other opportunists (eg SWP, SP, GP) who are seeking to get themselves elected on anti-war tickets. His blurb promises accountability, yet he has decided to run on an anti-war ticket without any discussion whatsoever with the anti-war movement. As far as I know he has never even had any involvement with any of the anti-war organisations, yet he seeks to represent them!

Whenever social movements arise, there are ambitious individuals who seek to appropriate them for their individual benefit. This is an example of that pure and simple.

by ben - nope Sat May 08, 2004 18:08

"To the best of my knowledge, Eoin represents no movement or party. He has neither sought nor received the endorsement of any groups or organisations for his candidacy. He has not raised the proposal of running anti-war candidates with any of the anti-war groupings in the country. "

therefore: independent candidate.

"He is even less accountable than the various other opportunists (eg SWP, SP, GP) who are seeking to get themselves elected on anti-war tickets."

All these parties have consistentantly opposed wars for many many years, that's a a cheap shot. Is the WSM the only group allowed to oppose the war? And anyway I think most sp votes come from their bin tax position. And the greens on the enviornment. Is the WSM opportunistically opposing the war to get a higher profile?

"His blurb promises accountability, yet he has decided to run on an anti-war ticket without any discussion whatsoever with the anti-war movement. As far as I know he has never even had any involvement with any of the anti-war organisations, yet he seeks to represent them! "

You seem to be putting words in peoples mouths here. He is standing as an anti war independent candidate .You can vote for him if you want or not.
And no one else is standing.

"Whenever social movements arise, there are ambitious individuals who seek to appropriate them for their individual benefit. This is an example of that pure and simple."

but harsh there, let him sell out first at least!

we know you are against voting that doesn't mean the rest of us are, and other peoples views count as well as anarchists, who seem to think they can speak for us.
Some would argue we need political parties, some would argue we need independent candidates and some we shouldn't vote at all.
none of the three arguments speak for the anti war movement. Because first of all the majority in the anti war movement (including the non ideologes) are anti war, not anarchist socialist or anything else. And no one has gained the position to speak for them, including chekov. Eoin has as much right as anyone else to put his hat in the ring for the elections and argue against the war,

by pc Sat May 08, 2004 18:17

i have admired the people who done ploughshares actions eoin including and doing the most for the antiwar movement
or actually doing the most to get planes out of shannon... but ive seen a bit of spite being thrown eoins way....i don't know the guy well of enough to understand why... i don't think its a great idea for single issues candidates to put themselves up for elections not to say the guy wouldn't be able to deal with all the issues of an mep.....

its an interesting point the yfg makes about splitting of votes... of course it worth putting yopurselg up for election even if you don't win but only if you intend to do it the next time nad work on that base or even go for the general elections is that your intent eoin to get into "politics"

now he has put himself up for public scrutiny some discussion on him nice or nasty is valid....

i see that an editor has questioned the use of that image on the front page and i noted the impending deluge of vote for me on the 11th events postings beginning on the calender but im presuming that the editors or still sleeping off last weekend and it will be dealt with

by Chekov Sat May 08, 2004 18:41

Ben, the thrust of your argument is that Eoin has a right to stand in the election - I agree with you! Of course he has a right to do so and I would never question it. What I did question was whether his candidacy has anything to do with the anti-war or environmental movements. I don't think it does, and believe it is designed primarily to build up his own profile. Perhaps, if you deal with this argument and not the one about rights, you might persuade me.

"other peoples views count as well as anarchists, who seem to think they can speak for us."

Of course they do. I spoke for myself, not you, the WSM, the anti-war movement or anybody else.

"And no one has gained the position to speak for them, including chekov."

Again, I speak for myself. If you disagree with me argue against me or just ignore me. But don't pretend that there is something authoritarian about me expressing my opinion. I have absolutely no ability to impose my opinions on voting or anything else.

To restate the opinion. I think that this candidacy will do nothing for the anti-war movement and is only likely to serve to build up Eoin's profile as a representative of the anti-war movement - which he is not any more than I am. People who have strong anti-war convictions should concentrate on organising to oppose bush's visit rather than waste their time on these elections.

by Bad muthafucka Sat May 08, 2004 19:16 badmutharfooker at lycos dot com

It's fucking sad, that's what it is. So Dubsky can go sit with other burned out activists, Danny cohn Bendit who is now a Green MEP but who once was happy when the French Stock Exchenge was set fire too in 1968. Although in fairness Cohn Bendit was more of an activist. All Dubksy wants is a room that will listen to him......and in Brussels they have some big rooms.

by hard hitters! Sat May 08, 2004 19:34

is he fit to join the careerists?

by Howie Sat May 08, 2004 19:54

I don't know if Dubsky's candidacy is a good idea or not. An ill-judged electoral run, receiving a poor vote, can make a campaign or movement look weaker than it is. That in turn can have a demoralising effect on the people involved. Remember that election votes are not the same as a referendum on an issue. People vote in particular ways for all kinds of complex reasons.

I don't live in the East constituency and I don't know Eoin personally. I don't know if he has a support base or if he has a substantial number of activists to help out. Therefore I can't make a serious assessment of whether or not an electoral outing is a good idea. I hope that people on the ground can inform us of that.

I do know however that Dubsky is a principled anti-war campaigner with a good record in action. I find Chekov's assumption that he could only be standing for his own "individual benefit" deeply depressing. There are easier ways for a talented and capable person to seek "individual benefit" than to run a left wing election campaign. There are easier ways of gaining publicity than going over the wall in Shannon and finding yourself in handcuffs.

Chekov's view reflects a kind of arrogance that is all too common amongst a certain type of anarchist. Nobody else can ever have an honest political, strategic or tactical disagreement with them about what steps a campaign should take or how we can bring about a better world without being tarred as "opportunists" out for themselves. This may come as a surprise to Chekov but you convince few people by smearing them.

Far better for anarchists to put forward their own views and ideas without the automatic assumption of poor faith on the part of those who disagree with them. You can make a perfectly reasonable case against standing in this particular election or a case against standing in elections at all without attacking Eoin's personal motives or the motives of the various anti-war political parties.

Activists will have a range of different views on any issue. On occasion they really will be manouevering for their own benefit. More often however they will be disagreeing on what tack to take out of honest conviction. What possible benefit to any of us is there in assuming the worst about each other at every turn?

by egos Sat May 08, 2004 20:11

Refuelling Peace - you know - the ones who let the general population know about what was going on at shannon at the time of ecotopia 2 years ago - he was also the first one arrested airside - and the first and only one so far charged and convicted - and this is a good idea - not because he has a hope in hell of being elected - but because he will have ongoing leinsterwide access to the local media in the runup to the bush visit with which to promote the protests - each to their own - and as for dr shitehalks cracks about red dan and burned out activists - what a laugh - you know how old this guy is - 23 - and just because anarchists don't run in elections does not mean they don't have egoes

by steve Sat May 08, 2004 21:12

"Chekov's view reflects a kind of arrogance that is all too common amongst a certain type of anarchist"

I second that and also find that attitude depressing. Best of luck Eoin (Ind.)

by seedot Sat May 08, 2004 21:24

'I don't know if he has a support base or if he has a substantial number of activists to help out.'

I think this is the telling question. The fact that Eoin has had to put a request out for the 60 people to assent to his nomination implies there is no existing support network in place that this decision to run was discussed with. The quota in East is likely to be 85,000+. An anti-war candidate showing poorly is likely to be damaging to the campaign, especially since Bush will be turning up two weeks later.

by Chekov Sat May 08, 2004 21:33

1. Refuelling peace does not exist as an organisation and never really did.

2. The Bush visit will attract media attention because it is a big deal. This attention might focus on people who are actually involved in organising against Bush and have mandates from organisations to represent them in the media, or it might focus on candidates who aren't but are 'anti-war' in some personal sense. I think the first is far better.

3. Call me arrogant all you like, but I am very firmly of the opinion that it is detrimental to social movements to have individuals claim to represent them without being accountable in any way. Eoin is clearly aiming to align his candidacy with the anti-war movement despite not representing it in any meaningful way and without engaging in any dialogue with that movement as to whether the candidacy is worthwhile.

4. As to the questions of Eoin's personal motives, I am not 'smearing' him. I think that all parties and individuals who seek powerful positions on the back of widespread feelings about particular issues are always opportunistic attempts to turn social movements into individual or party-political platforms for their own advancement, so it's nothing personal. I would say the same about many people I respect if they were to choose to run for office on an anti-war ticket.

5. Electoral strategies detract from social movements by focusing attention on individuals over issues. For example Dubsky's blurb includes all sorts of personal information about him that is completely irrelevant to any of the issues that he seeks to promote.

6. This is a political not a personal argument. For a fuller description of the anarchist critique of electoralism, see the link below. Whether I am arrogant or not is really irrelevant to the argument.

by ted Sun May 09, 2004 14:54

Checkov,

Joe Higgins is running for MEP, So Is SF Mary Lou and a number of others on 'the left'.

But why save all your bile and disgust for Eoin Dubsky?

I suppose nothing offends Anarchist sensibilities more than the oppression of Universal Suffrage.

by Chekov Sun May 09, 2004 15:25

QUOTE: "Joe Higgins is running for MEP, So Is SF Mary Lou and a number of others on 'the left'. But why save all your bile and disgust for Eoin Dubsky?" Firstly, I don't think that 'bile' is a fair description of what I wrote. I gave an argument as to why this candidacy is not a good idea for the anti-war movement and is only likely to serve to raise Eoin's personal profile. Nobody has attempted to counter this argument yet.

Secondly, as soon as Mary Lou or Joe posts their election blurb to Indymedia, I am sure that there will be various critical responses from me and others. I also indicated above that I think all parties and individuals who play up their anti-war credentials in order to gain positions of power are opportunists.

With the impending local and Euro elections, I fear that indymedia is in danger of being swamped with election blurbs. Rather than banning them, I support keeping our publishing system as open as possible and using the 'peer review' system to challenge candidates. If you want to use indymedia to promote yourself and your candidacy in elections, you should be prepared to answer criticisms. I think that this will prove to be a better 'rate-limiting factor' on election advertising on the newswire than anything else.

QUOTE: "I suppose nothing offends Anarchist sensibilities more than the oppression of Universal Suffrage."

That's just a silly little cheap-shot. Anarchists do not consider universal sufferage to be 'oppression'. As Bakunin said "the worst democracy is a thousand times better than the best tyranny". We just don't think that electoralism is a useful avenue for pursuing social change towards a democratic, classless society.

by Howie Sun May 09, 2004 15:58

You are doing it again, Chekov. You make reasonable arguments against standing in elections, arguments that can be agreed with or disagreed with. You then make the bald statement that anyone who disagrees with you and stands is an "opportunist" trying to use a movement for their own personal or party advancement.

You leave no room for honest disagreement amongst activists at all. There are those who want to do things your way and then there are those who are in it for themselves. I'm sorry to say it but there is no word that fits this attitude better than arrogance. It's an arrogance that is all too common amongst a certain type of anarchist, and in fact amongst a certain type of activist generally.

I don't know if Eoin's electoral run is a good idea. I don't know enough about the situation on the ground. It could well be that his run turns out to be a mistake. If I eventually come to the opinion this his candidacy is a bad idea however, that won't mean that I will assume that he is an opportunist out for personal advancement. People are entitled to disagree with me without such smears.

by Eoin Dubsky Sun May 09, 2004 23:12

I'm really grateful for all the support from people who've given it, and those who've expressed friendly criticisms and concerns here. I'll try to respond to those in the next few days when I have more time.

There have always been a few contributers to Indymedia who have responded with the same accusations of elitism and "vanity" as Chekov above... when I first tried to stop a plane at Shannon in December 2001 I was being elitist, then when I spray-painted that other plane in September 2002 it was elitist, and again when I went and launched a case in the High Court against the state. Indeed Mary Kelly and the Pitstop Ploughshares, perhaps also the Good Friday Potatoe Planters, all came in for similar treatment. All this fuss about these precious movements reminds me of the crazy general in Dr. Strangelove ("my precious bodily fluids...")! ;-)

Find me a passage where I said that I'm representing this movement or the other and I'll gladly post a correction apology. I'm an active campaigner, and I've listed some of the things I've done, but my direct actions and court actions aren't the common property of some Antiwar Trust or something.

Chekov, I'm afraid that I lack your vision, so I'm going to try whatever nonviolent means are available to me as a peace campaigner and environmentalist, oh and a European citizen. Justin Barrett is running for the European Parliament in my constituency, and if my only contribution in the coming weeks is to counteract his effect on the debate about citizenship, Ireland's Constitution and Europe, I'll be very happy. If I can win a seat, long after you've had your "big deal" media moment ten miles from the official US arse-licking ceremonies*, I hope to be able to campaign for all those things I wrote about above (and many more!) which motivate me, and to support citizens groups and NGOs in Ireland.

* In the middle of one of Chekov's comments above he pouts about the possibility that the media's "focus" might not fall on anti-Bush protest organisers (anyone in particular perhaps?), but instead on election candidates "who are 'anti-war' in some personal sense".

by black blocer Sun May 09, 2004 23:24

eoin, you doth protest too much. Actually judging by your comments you really seem to want to get elected...like as if this eu pig troff democratically represents the people of the 25 countries.

i'm an anarchist who oppposes the eu for many reasons, not just because of the war. You are obviously a reformist. While I was getting batoned my police at the Ashtown roundabout isn't it true that your brother was inside Farmleigh House taking part in the official cermony? He handed the czech flag to the current leader of the czech ruling class on behalf of czechs living in Ireland?

You are now running for election so you are open to public scrutiny. Your views should be known by the electrate. Answer this: do you support your family members taking part in this cermony while we were being beaten up outside?

Answers on this page please.

by ZIP Sun May 09, 2004 23:42

I don't think Chekov F has any right to harp on about anything with regards the media...remember...
"no Joe, we don't hate live-line"
jesus if you want to know everything that's bad about this state just listen to live-line and the shameless shit-stirrer Joooeeee Dufffaaaeee

Go for it Eoin, just don't let the bright lights water you down!

I'd vote for ya Eoin except I'm an anarchist, NOT, yeah right like that's (anarachy) gonna change the shit we're in, jesus christ we don't have time for this idealistic shit, haven't you heard boy's, there's a war goin on and it's all over the last few drops of oil!

by ZIP Sun May 09, 2004 23:56

Blac bloccer, didn't I read somewhere lately that some of your crew are from a section of society where silver spoons are used to feed new-borns, no-one is responsible for their family-members actions or for that matter their over-paid fat-cat lifestyles.
Yes everyone running for election is up for scrutiny........for their own actions not others.
you sound like that rag that wrote about your mates .... stirring up shit, sad very sad

by Chekov Mon May 10, 2004 00:16

QUOTE: "with the same accusations of elitism and "vanity" as Chekov above...."

That's not the same accusation at all Eoin. I never mentioned elitism then or now. I do call this bid for election a vanity project, and that is entirely unconnected to any of your past activities, which I do not believe that I have ever criticised you for. There is no point in confusing different criticisms from different people.

QUOTE: "Chekov, I'm afraid that I lack your vision"

Eoin, I'm afraid that you're not being honest. If you really thought that you lacked my vision, then you would be a bit more timid about putting yourself forward as one of my representatives in Europe.

QUOTE "Find me a passage where I said that I'm representing this movement or the other and I'll gladly post a correction apology."

Eoin, you are putting yourself forward as a candidate for election in a system called 'representative democracy' . The idea is that you are supposed to 'represent' your electorate. You are also not running as "Eoin Dubsky", you are running as "Eoin Dubsky, peace campaigner and environmentalist". It is clear which sector of the electorate you are seeking to represent. It is somewhat worrying that you are denying that you are seeking to 'represent' anybody, while you are putting yourself forward for a position as a public representative!

QUOTE: "so I'm going to try whatever nonviolent means are available to me as a peace campaigner and environmentalist, oh and a European citizen"

Non-violent means to do what? If you can explain to me how a vote for you is going to help the anti-war or environmental cause, then maybe you'd have some point. As it is all you are saying is: vote for me - I'm against the war and for the environment. I'd say that you haven't even bothered to ask anybody but yourself whether getting you elected would be of any benefit to the anti-war movement or environmental movement. Personally, I don't see any way that it could be of any benefit to anybody but yourself. Convince me otherwise.

QUOTE: "* In the middle of one of Chekov's comments above he pouts about the possibility that the media's "focus" might not fall on anti-Bush protest organisers (anyone in particular perhaps?), but instead on election candidates "who are 'anti-war' in some personal sense"."

Eoin, if you are running for public election, you should be able to handle a bit of criticism without getting personal. I "pout" about nothing. I do believe that if there is a matter of public debate, it should primarily focus on those who represent those involved rather than those who are accountable to nobody but themselves. Your attempt to impute base egotistical motives to me ("anyone in particular...") are well wide of the mark. I won't be representing anybody for the media during the bush visit. It is possible to have opinions that don't just boil down to a desire for self-promotion.

So, Eoin, a few questions for your candidacy.

1. Explain to me how canvassing for you and voting for you will advance the cause of the anti-war or environmental movements? Is this the best way for anti-war and environmentalist activists to spend their energy over the next few weeks, as against maybe organising against Bush?

2. Why do you think that you are the best person to represent the anti-war and environmentalist movements in the European Parliament?

by pc Mon May 10, 2004 00:27

if after alot of thought you decided the only way to stop usaf planes going through shannon was to do a ploughshares type action rather then depending on politicians to listen to, if not alot of people with concerns about the "war on terror" then atleast a wider idea of human rights then why now can you change your tack so completely (well two years later) and decided getting yourself elected and trusting in parliamentary procedures is going to get you and your issues further...?


and is this just a once off thing?

by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker Mon May 10, 2004 00:39

While others have theorised and propagandised about responses to the war
Eoin has
-tried the legal route with the High Court injunction,
-tried nonviolent resistance with his 2 NVDActions at Shannon
-and now he seems to be giving the electoral process a whirl.

The guy is only 23 - a time for experimentation, reflection, learning and finetuning (the first & last time I voted was for me when I ran at 19 for the Brisbane City Council...I got so many votes - thanx to the Harrisburg meltdown the week before - & the election was so close that the ALP Council which scraped in adopted all my policies - except the one about dedicating 70% of may wage to the projects....the legacy was Briz declared as a nuclear free zone, good bikeway system and a relatively good recycling system by 1979!!!)

As Howie has pointed out judging Eoin's motives as egotistical & opportunistic is unfair and a typical putdown in this colonised culture/climate of collective mediocrity of anyone who takes any initiative anwhere anytime.

As many left groups relationship to the war can be accused of sporadic ambulance chasing when the media (or a Bush visit) decides it's hot, one can't make the same accusation of Eoin's consistent activism against Irish complicity in this war.

Yes I'm an anarchist (christian/pacifist) and no I don't vote (burn incense for Caeser). Good luck with your good work Chekov and Eoin.

by broinn Mon May 10, 2004 00:39

"one of my representatives in Europe."
Chekov how can he be a representative of yours whaen you have none you're an anarshist you don't vote,
I also rmember you on live-line "representing" indymedia well I contribute to Indymdia and I hate live-line ...... trivia to you maybe but not to us! careful what you say, people can se thru shit

by An ordinary Joe Mon May 10, 2004 01:06

No surprise to see this guy advocating eoin dubsky with his usual blend of incoherent mumbo jumbo.

For the record eoin could hardly be described as a 'consistent' antiwar activist. He's done one or two things that have got him the media spotlight but other than that hes been nowhere to be seen. He certainly played zero part in the protest movement that flourished all too briefly last year and I've never seen him involved in doing any work for any actually existing antiwar group. He puts out press statements on behalf of nonexistent groups. The rest of us have to put the posters, book the buses, get people on them, harass our native ruling class, yak, yak, yak. Boring shite but someones gotta do it. Eoin doesn't.

by Phuq Hedd Mon May 10, 2004 05:18

QUOTE: " `one of my representatives in Europe.'
Chekov how can he be a representative of yours whaen you have none you're an anarshist you don't vote,"
ANSWER: We're living under a representative democracy Broinn. Whether the candidate you vote for wins or not you are "represented" by an unaccountable, non-recallable person. Even if you don't vote you get "represented" by that politician. Even if you believe that voting in a representative democracy is a farce you get "represented" by the politician.

QUOTE: "I also rmember you on live-line "representing" indymedia well I contribute to Indymdia and I hate live-line ...... trivia to you maybe but not to us! "
ANSWER: I also contribute to indymedia and hate Live Line. I didn't see Chekov but I'd imagine that he was chosen as a representative by the IMC collective and was mandated to say particular things. You can become active in that collective if you have the time and think you can do a better job.

QUOTE: "careful what you say, people can se thru shit"
ANSWER: And some people eat, breathe and speak it Broinn.

by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker Mon May 10, 2004 10:27

Ordinary Joe, don't call mumbo jumbo (suspect this phrase has colonialist racist roots) incoherent just because you don't speak it or understand it.

At a rough guess from your poster boy/bus booker activity, you sound of the Trot persuasion (hey! call me a mystic!) You kept your anti-war activity within the laws laid down by the state before you caught the wave to the next campaign, Eoin did not. The war is still on for us & for him (facing the courts), the soldiers passing through and the Iraqis dying. It's an indulgence that those such as your law abiding self can afford to drop out of the war in boredom etc.

My posting was a defence of Eoin's personal integrity rather than the brilliance of his latest political strategy. I have known Eoin from his anti-war activity a good 14 months before the bombing campaign began. Quite some time before the left sects saw the war as another 1st World recruiting opportunity (yes with posters and buses) on the back of 3rd. World dead.

If you would like to continue this debate, compare hat or headsize, hair length etc. or discover the linguistic intricacies of mumbo jumbo - meet you at Speakers Corner Temple Bar next Sunday!

by Lorraine Rice - Personal Capacity Mon May 10, 2004 13:06

I think it is refreshing to have someone from our mists running in the EU election. If Eoin were in my constituency, I wouldnt hesitate to vote for him.

It is worrying to read some of the less favourable comments. It would seem to me that rather than Eoin having an ego, others come across as jealous of his motivation.

In reference to a comment about Eoin wanting to win, I hope he does want to win. Self belief is 90% of the way to succeeding.

Fair play to you Eoin, judging by your actions in the past and your past and current beliefs, I have every confidence you will prove yourself a notable and capable candidate.

by ordinary Joe Mon May 10, 2004 13:19

Firstly, Ciaran i'm not a trot - not in any group actually and never was other than the peace movement which i've been involved with for 15 years. was arrested in England (my homeland) twice in the 1990s for nvda and spent time in jail. Why doI mention this? Only cos you have such a superiority complex about your own activity as if nobody else has ever put themselves out. Normally I wouldnt go on about it - unlike you who thrives on stories of what you did here and there.

People like yourself and eoin are living off the backs of the peace movem,ent in ego terms. As you'd say yourself its a co-dependence thang.

I wouldnt vote eoin intothe councilnever mind the EU parliament. I wouldnt trust him to stick around.

by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker Mon May 10, 2004 14:54

Well man it's always hard to debate with an anonymous pseudonym. See you Sunday, for further psycho-analysis of my political motivation.

I'm not voting for Eoin either, see we have common ground already! N0 reason to be scared dude.

by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker Mon May 10, 2004 19:24

Joe, sounds like they broke you in jail in the '90's.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime man! A better option would be doing proactive solidarity with the few people who moved from protest and have resisted Irish complicity in the war and are awaiting the consequences. Instead you are churlishly (very english trait in my experience!) turning against those who continue to resist with unfounded personal attacks (we have got minimal support from the anti-war movement eg. financial, opportunities to speak, totally blacklisted while we were in jail on F15)..rather "than living off anyone's backs."

Sorry for the confusion that you were SWP. SWP is an english organisation and you seem to share a lot of its traits. We are fucked up but the english are fucked up in a very english kind of way (has a lot to do with being the first culture decimated by industrialisation...there went the neighborhood and a sense of self identity, explains the rampant self-consciousness masquerading as humility in your postings

..AND of course you are from a colonial culture that says there's an English/proper way of doing things (food, football, activism, anarchist revoltuion and a variety of wrong ways of doing things - a rejection of pluralism, which is evident in the vitrolic attacks on Eoin here). Lets hope we haven't imported an english form of anarchism, like we got loaded with SWP english form of Trotskyism.

You've also got to realise Joe you're located in a context where your culture fucked our culture. So yes we have a lot of baggage and deconstructing to do!

Maybe a little bit more jail time would have done you good. Learn some manners and not slander people harlf-cocked. Doesn't go down well in that context at all in my experience.

For us who aren't sufferng from you particular version of self conscious anglo colonial inhibitions....we have stories to tell and experiennces to share and hopefully we deliver it with some humour and appreciate the sanctity of other stories......

"I will tell you something about stories.
(he said)
They aren't just entertainment.
Don't be fooled.
They are all we have, you see,
all we have to fight off illness and death.

You don't have anything
if you don't have stories.

Their evil is mighty
but it can't stand up to our stories.
So they try to destroy the stories
let the stories be forgotten.
They would like that
They would be happy
Because we would be defenseless then....."
Leslie Marmon Silko
ceremony

by ordinary Joe Mon May 10, 2004 20:04

First of all, Ciaran, you're a racist. What's alll this anti English drival??

Second off, I'm not rushing to go back to prison (only a fool would be) but i'm currently waiting to hear from the cops in London for an action I was involved in some time ago (global just stuff not anti war). Prison never put me off nvda so grow up.

The chip will drag you down some day, mate.

by Ciaron Mon May 10, 2004 21:55

English is a colonial ethnicity, not a race, that has colonised this land. Has it colonised the Irish anarchist movement - the jury is still out?

My grandfather felt he had to kill Brits while they occuppied and killed his people. My father felt he had to fight them in London and OZ pubs and worksites rather take their colonial/racist shit. The worst I've done is yell at a few. At this rate of evolvement the next generation of our family should be more chilled. Meanwhile I was raised with a don't trust a Brit/ don't take any shit from one. Those are the prejudices I was raised with (they were kind of helpful while living in England for 6 years, but I'm trying to work on'em and shed'em.

Drop the term mumbo jumbo it is racist. Drop the term paddy wagon if you're still using it, it is racist. Drop the pschoanalysis of moi and I'll go easy on the cultural deconstruction while you are a guest in this country.

The weak psycho analysis of Eoin (motivated by ego and profile) in the early postings, may have been a little projection as certain anarcho spokesfolks had their profiles lifted with little personal costs around the May Daze. Such weak cheapshots detracted from some good anarchist analysis of electoralism and its associated pitfalls. There is also this lack of pluralism in the Brit anarchist scene that seems to have taken route (along with the architecture, post boxes etc.) in Ireland

Don't fear jail it is the house of the poor, lots of good work to be done there.

by Jake Mon May 10, 2004 21:59

Or is Chekov too radical to have e-mailed Eoin and checked a few things first before starting a public slanging match?

Nice one lads... well done.
Oh, if only this had been last week, it would have been mentioned in the Phoenix Youngblood article on Chekov.

by Chekov Tue May 11, 2004 00:34

"Or is Chekov too radical to have e-mailed Eoin and checked a few things first before starting a public slanging match?"

Checked what? If there are any details that I have got wrong, please let me know. Eoin announced his candidacy in public, I responded with my opinions. Are you suggesting that criticisms of candidates for public elections should be confined to private contact???

What slanging match? If you think that a criticism of his standing is equivalent to a slanging match, you have a lot to learn. I still belive that this is a 'vanity project'. That is not abusive. I have outlined several times why I think it is the case. Nobody, including Eoin, has responded to counter it. If you convince me that I'm wrong I'll take it back. Pretty much all the abuse ("arrogant", "too radical", "anybody in particular", blah blah blah) has gone my way, just for challenging the reasons behind the candidacy.

Finally, Eoin, I'm still waiting for the response to my two basic questions. If you can't justify your candidacy even in this most basic way, you should really consider your motivations. The mud you threw in your last response isn't really good enough.

by Lorraine Rice - Personal Capacity Tue May 11, 2004 01:37

Why do most of those that have posted a response (or in more cases a comment) to Eoin's candidacy feel the need to highlight their own personal triumphs, incarcerations or involvement within movements?
It is not a competition, and from reading the postings above, most of you seem to have forgotten that.
Eoin's initial posting was as far as I can tell in no way embellished, so anyone that would judge or belittle him for standing in the European election, in my opinion, needs to take stock of themself before filling this site with further irrelevant bumf.
I appreciate your understanding in this matter, etcetera , etcetera , etcetera

by paul o toole Tue May 11, 2004 02:38

Chekof, call Eoin.

by Broinn Tue May 11, 2004 02:59

with regards to Chekov being an anarchist bla bla vla, I was being perhaps overly cynical/sarcastic in a cheap anarchist slaggy fashion, but surely an anarchists position in debating the issues surrounding an election candidate and his reasons for running is farcical, we all understand the belief behind anarchism NUFF SAID, I'm sure Eoin did not expect any support in his effort from any "true" anarchists, but to add insult to belief, calling his decision to run, "a vanity project" is just not on, fair enough argue why elections are futile but jesus don't get arrogant . This is like listening to a vegetarian telling a meat-eater how bad he is, except worse! How boring !
Now to the other matter Fuck Head about the live-line chat, you said you "didn't SEE it", NUFF SAID, I most certainly do agree though, people do indeed talk shit

by ben - no Tue May 11, 2004 04:53

Reformist pinkish left party elected in Spain, they immediately pulled the troops out. The italian reformist left are forced to adopt the same line (un or we leave) as of now while the italian greens and old left are calling for troops out with or without the un. Of course it has an effect if anti war groups get a big vote iEven if it's only propaganda and publicity it all helps.

by Ciaron Tue May 11, 2004 05:06

Yep really got to avoid such discourses.

Sorry mate I speak from my own experience, that's the only one I got.

Got involved here defending Eoin from what I read as a personal attack on his integrity. (beyond a political critique of electoralism)

Found myself the target of familiar personal attack from the sniper safety of anonymity.

Probably began to half explore the Brit anarchist thang that had me banned from the London Anarchist Bookfair in 2001...an exploration that should be done more fully elsewhere. And theother issue of what kind of anarchism are we being offered here in Ireland. Yet another issue for another time and place.

I guess if Eoin is going to publicise his candidacy on indymedia he would be expecting a variety of anarcho-critiques of it.. Nuff said rightio.

by Soundslike Tue May 11, 2004 11:35

Vanity project? Sounds more like an act of despair.
Despair at the Irish Courts not defending the constitution. He tried that!
Despair at the Irish peace movement not moving from protest to resistance. He tried that!
Maybe they'll vote against the war.

by Andrew - WSM (personal cap) Tue May 11, 2004 11:56

I'm a little surprised by this thread. This after all is indymedia where people can post news and other people can then react to it. Some times the reactions are worthwhile (as some are here) and sometimes they are not (as some are here). But if you don't want the reactions then don't post.

In particular reacting with outrage when an electoral post is followed by an anarchist critique of electoralism seems very odd. What did you expect?

I'd be interested in seeing Eoin addressing some of the serious points raised above.

by Richard Sinnott. Tue May 11, 2004 13:14

I think that the WSM have a very infantile obsession with elections. One would think that jumping at cops and not marking a piece of paper with numbers are the only things the WSM do. They were shown to be wrong on the election question when the Anti-Water Rates campaign nominated Cllr. Joe Higgins in the 1996 Dublin West bye-election. The political pressure this put on added to the pressure of non-payment and got the water tax abolished. That election did act as a catalyst to end the water tax sooner.

When Cllr. Higgins became Deputy Higgins in 97 they were again shown to be wrong. That position was used to organise various campaigns and struggles on the ground. How many other TDs were out knocking on doors asking residents to block the bin truck the next morning? Deputy Higgins has increased his vote and is very popular in West Dublin.

The WSM should realise that those on the left should use elections to further the movement. The WSM even do it when they put up the 'vote pie' posters! The fact is working class consciousness is not at a stage where the call can go out to boycott the bourgeois elections and give power to the workers' councils. It's very ultra-left and infantile to be calling for a boycott at this stage.

In saying this I think that Eoin Dubsky is not necessarily well advised to run. As I said elections should be used to build the movement, I don't think that Eoin has a campaigners around him and is not really going to do that in the next week or two. I don't know if he's contacted anti-war groups and campaigners in the Leinster area.

by Bamber Tue May 11, 2004 13:32

"It's very ultra-left and infantile to be calling for a boycott at this stage."

Oohh - I wonder what the SP member was reading lately?
Lenin perhaps.

And I know, how could I possibly tell that you are a member of the SP, when you are not.

by Andrew - WSM (personal cap) Tue May 11, 2004 13:33

Richard you sort of long on rhetoric here and short on arguments.

In fact your first argument with regard to Joe Higgins confirms one of our reasons for opposing his endorsement, that it would result in people 'remembering' his non-election as a crucial moment in the defeat of the water tax.

We wrote in late 1995 (well before the byelection was even discussed in the campaign) that "1995 WILL BE seen as the beginning of the end for the hated double taxation water charges in Dublin and throughout the country. For the first time in almost a decade, the year closed without a single water disconnection for non-payment in the entire country. This fact is a tremendous tribute to the hundreds of campaign activists who have been busy fighting the charges for almost two years in Dublin and for much longer in many other areas." http://struggle.ws/ws/water47.html

The campaign was to all intents and purposes won by the time the byelection came around (in 1996). It could have been lost through stupidity but otherwise everyone knew it was over. But don't let me stop you from sticking to the 'great man school of history"

Anyway we are about to run that test the other way. On June 11th some 30+ are standing on anti-bin tax platforms. For months this has dictated how the campaign has been fought, to its detriment. If in 1995 we were sure of victory in 2004 we are facing defeat. And electoralism is a significant part of the reason why.

"The fact is working class consciousness is not at a stage where the call can go out to boycott the bourgeois elections and give power to the workers' councils. It's very ultra-left and infantile to be calling for a boycott at this stage."

I'm not sure who you think you are arguing with here but the WSM is not under the impression that power is about to be seized by workers councils.

Beyond this I really don't get this 'the working class is not ready' argument. Huge numbers of the working class have recognised what the left dare not say out loud. That parliamentary elections are a farce, that whoever you vote for the government always wins.

While the far and republican left are concentrating on convincing workers that have come to the concluson that parliamentary elections are a farce that they should have one more spin of the wheel we concentrate on saying 'your right, now what can we do about this'.

You may not be aware of it but "infantile and ultra-left" were terms coined by the dictator Lenin when he was in the process of shutting down workers self management and banning, jailing and executing those who opposed him. Unless you arr a leninist there are about as insulting as being called a 'commie jew lover' by a fascist.

Lots on the actual anarchist positions on elections at http://struggle.ws/election.html

by WSM watcher Tue May 11, 2004 13:56

Andrew now gives us the insight that the "leninists" were only engaged in the bin tax battle for elections! Yes Andrew, blocking the bin service for 2 days is really going to get loads and loads of votes and win MEP seats. Get a grip. The WSM argued against the 2 day blockade of bin depots and against other blockades. The SP and other "electoralists" engaged in this activity as it is what was necessary. For me the bin tax battle showed the anarchists up for what they are. All talk and little action.

Andrew did not respond to the point made about the WSM using elections. You rpinted up leaflets and put up posters against elections and putting out your views. The SP, SWP, etc etc do the same, difference is that they have a name on a piece of paper.

I would agree with Richard Sinnott when he says that the Anarchists have an infantile obsession with elections. They are also obsessed with 'direct action', but when real working class direct action comes on the cards they are on the sidelines.

by curious left Tue May 11, 2004 14:00

where do the WSM stand on the struggle to get the vote in the first place? Working class people fought campaigns to get a vote. Women had to as well. More recently in the north working class people were excluded more because of property qualifications. Was it wrong for campaigns for "one-man, one-vote" to be run? Would it not be ultra left to isolate yourself from these struggles?

by Chekov Tue May 11, 2004 14:01

That's just a lie.

by Andrew Tue May 11, 2004 14:22

As Chekov said the claim above is a lie. A very detailed record of what we said during the blockades is found at http://struggle.ws/wsm/bins.html

In fact the first depot blockade in the city area took place at Grangegorman Oct 2 http://struggle.ws/wsm/news/2003/grangegormanOCT2.html which as many people will know was organised by the local groups we were active in. We not only supported this but argued for it and announced it in advance, see http://struggle.ws/wsm/news/2003/dailSEPT30.html

From this point we argued for a day of action blockading depots, this finally took place Oct 14 http://struggle.ws/wsm/news/2003/grangegormanOCT14.html but proof of our support (actually demand) for such a tactic is found in our coverage of the Mounjoy March of Oct 9th http://struggle.ws/wsm/news/2003/mountjoyJAIL9OCT.html which includes "It was announced from the platform that we would blockade the four bin truck depots on Monday, the march will be vital in getting the numbers along to these blockades that are needed to make them effective. While the cops have been confident to move against 20 or 30 people blocking a truck they allowed the Grangegorman blockade that involved 80+ to go ahead without any serious attempt to intervene."

If your going to tell lies don't pick something so easly proved to be a lie. It just shows a complete lack of respect for you own members and the memory of you audience!

On the struggle for the vote. Bakunin (old dead anarchist) said that the worst democracy was 100 times better than tyranny. So anarchists have supported the struggle for the vote in many countries most recently in S. Africa and Nigeria.

For those actually interested in the reasons why anarchists see the question as 'Parliament or democracy' see the pamphlet of the same name at http://struggle.ws/once/pd_intro.html If you want to argue against us it would help to understand where we are coming from and this does a pretty good chance of explaining this.

Final note: I choose to post in a very weak anonymous fashion by just using my first name. If you want to out me for my employer or journalists you could at least post under your own name.

by Bamber Tue May 11, 2004 14:30

1. Q. What organisation planned and built for a blockade of the local depot to disrupt the evening collections?

2. Q. What organisation thinking itself to be the leader of the campaign at a whim decided to move the evening blockade to another time?

Ah poor ol' WSM watcher - did you go for SP to question 1 and WSM to question 2.
Well - wrong comrade, it was the other way round. Now back to learning Lenin by rote.

by Elle Tue May 11, 2004 14:31

I have yet to meet an Irish Anarchist who isn't a card carrying member of the upper middle classes - Trinity graduates whose parents indulge their psuedo left tendancies - these kids (and yes until you grow up and stop living in one of the many properties owned by your Mammy that is what you are, regardless of how old your birth cert says you are....although some of you pay scant attention to any of the information on your birth cert!) wouldn't know real life and struggle if it bit them on the arse. I have yet to meet a so-called Irish anarchist who is willing to engage with anyone outside their own narrow little priveliged community - let alone engage with the Irish working class. Workers solidarity indeed - what if the workers don't want your solidarity mate - and they don't you know - but how would you know this and why would you care

by Andrew Tue May 11, 2004 14:36

Next myth

'Anarchists are all soap dodging crusties who live in caves' - discuss!

by Interested - None Tue May 11, 2004 16:08

The working class is too busy working to care about "workers councils" Lenin, Trotsky, Dubsky or Wombling. When the "Working classes" were on the dole in the pre 1990's that was the chance for the revolution. People have their Sky Sports, ManUtd, Dutch Gold, week in Playa Ingles etc. Marks was wrong about religion being the opium, the people get what they want and deserve.

Anyway one of the worlds great criminals is visiting Dublin and noone cares. Thats right ,the Chinese PrimeMinister is on his way and who is protesting. Does no one care about the prisoners of concious, Tibet, perference for Aborting females, lack of democracy, intolerance, censorship

THe Chinese people would laugh at our complaining about garda brutality etc

by Homer Tue May 11, 2004 16:13

Any links for that? When is he visiting. I'd protest at that!

by Ray McInerney Tue May 11, 2004 17:11

University of Limerick, tomorrow.

by R. Isible Wed May 12, 2004 19:54

Someone that wants us not to protest Garda brutality wrote: "THe Chinese people would laugh at our complaining about garda brutality etc"

Or maybe the Chinese people would recognise the common thread of armed and violent oppression of citizens by the government that is supposed to be their servant? They might see the use of water cannon and beatings of peaceful crowds as typical behaviour of a government that is desparate to suppress opposition.