Mayday 'protest' circus entertains gleeful activists but alienates public

by tom Sun May 02, 2004 22:41

David , your 100% right , indymedia shoud condem the volient protestors if its to have any credability

by Indy Sun May 02, 2004 22:47

Yeah - we mustn't alienate people and the surest way to get the wrong reaction is for people to act like muppets and cause criminal damage. We had potential political dynamite on our hands IF it was peaceful - the opposition would have had a FIELD DAY on the FF/PD Coalition.

Justification of that is very difficult - but a small amount of people brought it all down! why? for what?

We made our point, but we alienate people with violence. We need to be inclusive and bring public pressure to bear. We need to show that the silent majority really think like we do but feel powerless as individuals to act and thus simply grumble at home or into their pints instead.

We need to show they can join us and achieve much.

We can only do so if we are inclusive.

What happened right at the end of the day was not.

Uncool.....

by David Sun May 02, 2004 22:50

If activists were really gloating like that then why would you have to make up quotes to prove your point?

Are you any relation to brendan o connor?

by anyoneofyou Sun May 02, 2004 23:01

if a few people getting in a ruck with the garda is enough to stop people from coming out to demonstrate then hopefully they will find a new way to show their anger at their leaders, that or they must have fairly weak convicitions that what they are doing is vital to change.

by Call me Al Sun May 02, 2004 23:14

It is not a question of 'fairly weak convictions' - its a question of not wanting to be manipulated by violent thugs for their own ends. These protests were led (maybe 'dominated' is a better word) by a small crowd of arrogant bullies, and I don't want to have anything at all to do with them. Shouting about 'representing the people' is arrogant - these people don't represent me or anyone I know.

Fair play to the Gardai - they had to work over the weekend and they did a good job of keeping everybody safe.

If you want change then ask for votes at the next election

by anyoneofus Sun May 02, 2004 23:19

there's no point voting when the goverment always wins!

by joe Sun May 02, 2004 23:36

I agree - I would have no sympathy with anti-globalisation, anti-eu, anti whatever protesters, but I was still in a mood to join in an Anti-bush protest (and by god that thought was hurting me).

But now I can gladly say that there is no way I will be joining in - no matter who organises a parade, there can be no guarantee that it won't be hijacked like yesterday.

Before yesterday, I'd have thought an anti-bush parade could get 250000 on the street, which would have been heard. You'll be lucky to get a tenth of that this now.

by gareth Sun May 02, 2004 23:55

if voting could really precipitate fundamental social change, they would outlaw it. from what i could see yesterday, the police were far more mindless, vindictive, and thuggish in their application of violence than any protesters. i saw a waif of a girl who couldn't have been more than 16 being batoned because she couldn't get back fast enough. i saw policemen lashing out at people exercising their democratic right to protest in a mindless, automatic fashion several times. personally, i don't advocate violence, but i feel it's a little rich to condemn those that do if you hold the counterproposition that police violence is ok in order to maintain the current inequitable neoliberal social order.

by The burning bush....... Sun May 02, 2004 23:58

sorry joe but your wrong! and its that sort of negative thinking that will shrink the numbers remember your one less

get your head together!
get motivated!
get on with it!

by XZBarcalow Mon May 03, 2004 00:13

Oh come on -Violent thugs? Fair play to the gardai? There was hardly any violence, though what injuries that did occur were caused by a minority of over-excited riot cops.

Frankly I find the squeemishness of some people at the sight of a few teenagers and gardai pushing each other amazing, given the suffering and misery caused throughout the world by the policies people were protesting about. What's more deserving of righteous anger -millions of people starving because of the unfair trade rules or a guy throwing a bottle at heavily armoured police?

by a poor hijacked protestor Mon May 03, 2004 00:46

What stupid arguements you lot have put forward for not coming out against bush. Utter twaddle, the march last night was reasonably small, so small in fact that it could seem like a few people hijacked it, (although the march's organisers had more or less ended it before the trouble, its hard to disperse when you are bottlenecked and surrounded) if you realy had any convictions this would not put you off. I got home completely dry and not alienated, i marched as much as i wanted and felt comfortable with. If you really cared and weren't pandering to your own fear you would realise that the best way to ensure that the bush protests go off quietly is if you had the guts to come along and so outnumber those you believe to be thugs by such numbers that they get sidelined. If you sit at home whining you will be part of your very own self fufilling prophecy, still if it makes you happy to feel your lack of voice is caused by a few hooded youths then i suppose you are the sort of person who doesnt vote in the rain. your excuses hide a deplorable lack of conviction and willingness to take risks for your beliefs. Such half arsed liberalism is what allowed the nazis rise to power, im not saying we have any comparable problem but that does not make your empty words any less deplorable. Give yourself a pat on the back.

by Ciaron Mon May 03, 2004 00:53

David C...... "Cynicism is the fifth column of the establishment!"...and you've got it in droves in this colonised culture we are operating in. 800 years of British colonisation, and now 800 of American it seems.

Mainstream Ireland does have a special relationship with Amerikkka & Britain it's called faking orgasm while being raped!

100,000 marched against the war on Feb 15th 2003 and Bertie agreed with them. The passive opinion is there, but the movement/activism largely related while troop movements are now at 16,000 a month. There is a vacuum created by the lack of a nonviolent militant movement in this country (see the stats on how few were arrested doing nonviolent civil disobedience during the war with 10,000 US troops using this place as pitstop before they literally piss on Iraqis).

Those who turned up were courageous when you consider what a ghost town the media hype and police threats made of Dublin on Saturday.

The ruck at the truck was a small incident, those commited to nonviolence remained on the streets and operated. Power has to be confronted and there was a lack of nonviolently militancy to do that (see above!)

How much mainstream protest ..Feb 15th. is a form of therapy and is factored in a managed by the state needs to be considered.

Violence is pretty much reactionary and when you lose the initiative you've lost the struggle.

by David Mon May 03, 2004 01:01

Call me cynical, but i don't think that this "joe" person ever had any real intention of protesting against Bush's visit. There will inevitably be media hysteria in the run up with threats of violence. No matter how unfounded these are the likes of "joe" will pretend to believe them and use it as an excuse to not do anything.

When bush comes most of the 'anarchist thugs' will probably go to shannon or dromoland castle to protest where the meeting will take place leaving everybody else who would never bother to make the trip anyway, to show their disquiet safe in the knowledge that they will not be 'infiltrated' by the grassroots network. All you'll have to worry about is the inevitable made up scare stories about al quaeda flying a space shuttle into the GPO

by Ocean Mon May 03, 2004 01:18

I hate all this 'we need to build the movement' shite. It's this bizarre idea that all we need is... uh... more people... yeah. Not really, and this point has been historically settled in this very country on febuary 15th last year.

In case your trotsky lobotomy has impaired your critical faculties in relation to the significance of this event i'll provide a synopsis: there were lots of people, lots and lots of people, more people than have ever taken to the streets at any one time in Ireland, ever. Nice feel good day but non-symbollock results: none. Moral of the story: numbers don't necessarily result in jack shit.

Stop thinking about trying to trick more people in political activism by trying to suppress the diverse, and sometimes confrontational, nature of dissent. Start thinking about what you can do, what you can achieve... because you know what? you're the only person you represent. I know that may come as a shock to people who think that they are not only the 'genuine' representatives of the working class but THE WORKING CLASS ITSELF.

Fuck all that 'i am the revolution' bollox and snap our mindsets into the local, individual, reality. No more meetings about meetings. No more recruitment drives. No more talk of 'we the people' and lets have some talk of 'we are people, not all of them, but people none the less'. Who gives a shit about george bush anyway? he's a tosser, so what, that's not unusual. if your criticism of GWB is about the function of power and capitalism then skip the middle man.

We only speak for one person, ourselves.

by . Mon May 03, 2004 01:20

BOC Off

by garda are scum Mon May 03, 2004 02:00

for what?

beating unarmed kids in the back when they were moving away?

("oh but i saw some bottles thrown!" yea against (RUC) water cannons, shields, body armour, batons, etc.)

trying to cause protestors, who were already leaving, to stampede? and arresting people who tried to get others to safety?

following people around in vans the next day till someone is isolated and they can hassle them on their terms (15 cops to 2 teenagers)?

ALL cops, and anyone who supports them, are fucking scum

no justice, no peace

by NeoRepublican Mon May 03, 2004 02:33

"we'll die to let you amrch, ut we won`t let you wear masks..."

My question is to those wearing masks, what do you think the garda will expect if you come with masks, as you are clearly trying to hide yourself. The most common reason is that you`ll be filmed, that does`nt really hold up because we are all filmed everyday, and if you are filmed doing a peacefull protest then their is no need to fear, and if there is don`t worry about the masks, cause it`s already to late, and thrwing your bottles full of sand will do bugger all.

Peacefull protests is the only way that any campaign can ever win in Liberal Democracies, the governments will always overhype the slightest bit of violence, which might I add includes "trying to get through the Garda".

Also all you spa's that are goin on how mad you are about getting arrested, get a life that was`nt even a proper protest you did in that estate, it was just a joke(much like the pressure they used the water cannon at, needed the RUC themselves to show how to ahndle those Tadghs).

The whole day prior to that had rubbished the government and the media.

Alsoooo
who`s Schmidt you ask? well when I wer a lad he was Chancellor of Germany ;-)reckon he's dead now

Mooooooo

by Chekov Mon May 03, 2004 02:44

Unless of course the picture ends up in the papers during a wave of hysteria and you are fingered as a violent lunatic, leading to loss of job, eternal grounding if you live with your parents or something similar. Or the cops could decide to put pressure on you and contact your employer or parent to inform them of your participation in the 'mayhem' movement. The chances of this happening in the current media climate are very high. I know a few people who were very very anxious when reading the sunday papers in case their faces appeared in the 'riot' shots. This fear certainly justifies anybody's decision to conceal their idenity with a mask.

by garda are scum Mon May 03, 2004 03:06

"what do you think the garda will expect if you come with masks"

then what about the cops? what do you think we will expect when they come with batons, water cannons, etc?

that stuff's acceptable, but not MASKS?

by roeroeroeyourbaton Mon May 03, 2004 03:39

all of these people who are complaining about the actions of the protestors are turncoats.the actions of the protestors were extremely mild in comparison to the action of the cops,i suppose you find immoral also that some protestors brought self protection? and finally i dont care if you don't protest against bush, save yourselves the bus fare down there because you wont make the slightest of impacts.

by Disgusted Mon May 03, 2004 10:08

I went to the protest because i felt it was worth being there. At the halfway house i saw two cameramen viciously attacked by protestors. Also the organisers of the march were pathetic. No one knew where they were going and most people seemed more concerned about using all their cam corders to film the cops rather than dealing with the issues. No one in your so called organisation wants to take responsibility for your actions. Stand up and admit that you made a ball's of it and showed yourselves up to be badly organised and lacking direction. As for the so called "Wombles" who or what was that all about?

by Risky Toos Mon May 03, 2004 12:07

Disgusted wrote above: "...As for the so called "Wombles" who or what was that all about?..."

er, so you actually believed all the shite in the corporate media about a violent WOMBLE squatter army invading and destroying Dublin?

the media manipulation against the wombles happens most years in britain before london mayday protests.

and its all bollocks designed to scare people away from protests, to frighten people away from those people who have realised that confrontation might just be excusable if we are going to change the world.

don't believe thge hype

by G Mon May 03, 2004 12:49

"confrontation might just be excusable if we are going to change the world."

In fairness now, I hardly think pushing up against garda lines is gonna change the world. It might just have a counter productive when its used as an excuse for battoning people after which the press is gonna portray the protesters as violent nihists or whatever. The general public will see pictures of clashes with the gardai and think what a bunch of thugs, why don't they go and get jobs instead of picking fights and marching arond looking all scary in black with their faces covered up.

by Kevin Mon May 03, 2004 12:58

Saturday's little kerfuffle up at Ashtown was just what the powers that be wanted.
By playing into their hands, the couple of hundred rioters justified a lot of the expenditure on security and hype about the inherently violent nature of anarchists and "anti"-protestors. As others have said, all of this will be reflected in a lower turnout for the anti-Bush marches. But hey, if it makes you feel good...

Many of those misbehaving yesterday have quite a double standard going. They berate the government and media for any comment or policy on immigration that doesn't fit with their own beliefs. They say it incites racism, hatred and violence. Very well. But they themselves take no responsibility for organising marches which seem to decend into (rather pathetic) violence like night follows day - after using fiery language full of verbs like 'smash', 'destroy' etc.

As for fucking the police, I recommend a good night out in Copperface Jacks. One at a time though...

by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker & Pitstop Ploughshares Mon May 03, 2004 14:01

The definition of "peaceful" being whatever is defined by the state as legal is a false one. You shouldn't accept the definitions of what is peaceful by institutions of criminality and global violence.

There are 10,000 young Americans passing through this country monthly risking their lives, limbs, sanity, disruption of career and study, sepration form loved ones and other things they'd rather be doing to prosecute a war on Iraq.

If the peace movement is serious we will have to take similar risks to resist this war nonviolently. See the 3 nuns doing 3 years for a weapons inspection of a ICBM missile silo in Colarado, see the Israeli/American/British military resisters, see the plowshares crews etc etc

Protest is factored in by the state and yes different left sects see it as one big marketting opportunity - with no interest in resistance. Resistance is not factored in...we have to keep the initiative, keep it creative and have the principles within of what we want to create nonviolence/direct democracy/pluralism etc etc

We're still going through an intense time here...the state has expended enormous resources to scare people off expressing there opinion and it's largely worked. Those who took to the streets on saturday night exemplified courage and stamina...we need space and time and forums to soak it up turn it over reflect on it and discuss it and see where we go form here.

There should be a continued dialogue between Blac Bloc and those commited to nonviolent struggle. There should be mutual respect and an avoidance of characterturing each other. we need to respect that our movement is so big we are going to have different ages, cultures, musical tastes, hairstyles, spitiualities etc

We're going to get tired and frustrated and take a lot of cynical shit....it's a long haul as you can tell by the demographic. No community / no susuatined resistance. No giveandtake reconciliation/ no community.

by Drbinoche Mon May 03, 2004 16:07

Right into the Governments hands. I mean you guys could have easily showed up and made your protest, NOT tried to push through the Garda lines into an area you ALL knew to be off limits for the day to ALL people, not just you guys and you would have had a moral victory. The Government could have been accused of over-spending on security, and over-hyping the situation, you would have had a field-day with the papers, showing how all of their talks of the Wombles was shite etc, but instead a few of you decided to try and force yourselves further. Now people who were not as interested as before and do not know of, or do not look on Indymedia, will believe what they have read in the Mainstream media and will put two and two together and reason that you guys were all out to coz trouble from the start.

I would doubt if the Bush marches will be as big, because, its about 6-7 weeks away and you guys have not started any REAL work behind it. When you started organising Feb 15th you organised months in advance, your window of opportunity is closing rapidly. Get something done or else you will not have many attending the march.

The guys who were disruptive on Saturday have certainly helped set you back a bit, and if I were you guys Id organise to have them seperated from the next march. It will prevent further troubles.

The Garda overreacted to an extent. But you guys should know that a]. they certainly did not have the Water hose at full power and b]. they are not paid or trained to take things easy when they bring in the Riot-police. The training itself is determined that when they are called in they react fast and aggressively. Its basic common sense. Speed, surprise and forcee of action is how you restore and detain quickly. Thats what the Riot Police are trained to do. They are NOT trained to talk you guys down, or to reason with you, they are trained to push you guys back and arrest any who resist.

Your all lucky the Army were not called in. I guarantee that if the Army had been called in the amount of injuries would be alot higher, and they would be alot more serious. Once again you are calling all of the Garda scum when they were just doing their duty as they were told to do. I believe that they did an upstanding job and applaud them on preventing further possible trouble.

As for any innocent people caught up in the violence. Well when you saw some sort of trouble in front of you, and you were fearful of getting hit, then why did you not retreat from the immediate area.

Some of you claim to have been surrounded. I certainly did not see any footage of the Garada having you all backs-against the wall down a laneway. You seemed to have plenty of places to run to.

The breaking of the Police van window is VIOLENT. Its attacking a police vehicle and destruction of a police vehicle. Both of which are crimes. The guys who were throwing bottles, thats an offense as well. Whether they be filled with stones or sand, its still an offense.

Basically guys, the march was great and I actually enjoyed watching it as it passed me by, but when you allowed some of these eejits to take over and try to physically prove their point, you sullied your movements aims to alot of people in Ireland. How can mothers justify bringing their Kids on June 26th of they cannot know how safe they'll be. There were plenty of young babies and kids at Feb 15th and that was great to see, but I doubt if there will be as many at June.

by iosaf Mon May 03, 2004 16:39

Leave Bush.
to the lackeys.

whistle colonel Bogey or something.

This adminstration is incapable of securing the safety of the Irish Nation, and is incapable of providing non aggressive policing, incapable of seperating ultra-rightists from social movement protesters,
incapable of monitoring it's entry points or exitpoints.
They've failed in the eyes of many europeans.

Hey, I advise you all just to leave.
Hop on a boat in a few weeks, and go.

SHAME on you, in Dail Eirinn
you really have fucked it up,
and no-one is giving you any sympathy,
and the divisions are not going to heal so quickly.

You have failed the test of securing your own state and citizens from brutality and infiltration.

You have not guaranteed the right to freedom to assembly, speech or association.

You miserable bunch of hypocrites.
"noble future my arse".

by Exactly! Mon May 03, 2004 18:42

Yeah exactly... ok one Bean Garda got hit by a bottle.. that wasn't on, but far more protestors were injured.. and as far as i could see, all that was thrown was a few empty beer cans and the occasional bottle, at which stage the riot cops were deployed..THe broadsheets have joined hands with the tabloids practically in blowing the whole thing out of proportion..as did the police.. and as for this "fait play to the Gardaí" rubbish..their approach was anything but professional..they failed to arrest those responsible for the serious acts of aggression (of course that would be too much trouble for them)..instead deciding to bag a few randomers who will no doubt be scapegoated in the coming days.. the justice system in this country is now officialy a joke.. The Gardaí behaved like excited children with new toys..sure that was expected..
Everyone turn out for the Bush protests and dont let the media spin doctors put you off... Your voice, your choice.

by Adam Tue May 04, 2004 14:35

The massive police presence was more to to with terrorism than a few hundred idealist and hangers on seeking a scrap.

After Madrid (and even before) there was never any way the cops were going to let you within a mile of 28 heads of State.

Can you imagine the outcry/public embarrassment had some terrorist use the protests as a cover to attack the HoS, a la the Turkey Nato meeting? Better to be over cautious then fuck up

The public don't like war, they don't like ccorruption etc, but what they hate more is being spoken for by some 'group', they hate stupid little slogans being pasted/ spraypainted over their vandalised city and they hate having to endure the same few hundred people, marchiung,protesting, time and time again going after impractacle goals.

Get pragmatic, get your heads out of your arses. The public in Ireland don't and never have supported the far left over 'law and order'. The country is more than a few thousand disillusioned people.

by T Tue May 04, 2004 17:26

Drbinoche,
I take issue with you saying:
'The breaking of the Police van window is VIOLENT. '

I find it incredible the way people like you can focus on something like that. Is Bertie Ahern and the whole government of FF and PD not all violent since they have aided the USA war machine in Shannon.?

Thousands have been brutally murdered in Iraq and elsewhere like Afghanistan. People have been blown to bits, their guts split open, heads blown off, hospitals bombed and so on and so on. Our government SUPPORTS this. But no, you have absolutely nothing to say, instead you focus on a single window that may have been broken. Why is is that people like you can expand so much time and energy getting excited about something like that? Of course you will tell us it is wrong. Well I think it is wrong that peaceful protestors get totally drenched with water. But your attitude is: it's your own fault for getting in the way. And somehow that makes it okay.

And what about the two people who suffered head injuries. I was standing beside one of them and saw for myself the injury. Please speak up and tell us all here is that not violence or what? No, it's lets focus on the inert broken window.

by Crumbs Tue May 04, 2004 17:36

Hate to disappoint you pinko, but people like you are not in a majority in this country. Most people in this country, while not America-worshippers, are broadly pro-American and pro-war. Here's my theory on the Iraq war, see if it makes sense and feel free to challenge it (unlike you, I believe in free-speech). Firstly lets not kid ourselves, Bush did not spend upwards of 50 billion dollars to "liberate" the Iraqi people (who don't particularily like Yanks to begin with). WMD was something they used to justify the war to the public, and it was a fair assumption seeing that Saddam had a history of WMD use. The War on Terror argument was just another ploy to bring the sentimental American public on-side. The war WAS about oil, but NOT about greed. It was about necessity. During the build-up to the war, Bush pulled all US troops out of Saudi Arabia. Why would he do that? It's a perfect launchpad for invading Iraq. The reason is simple. The West can't trust the Saudis anymore. Saudi Arabia is the biggest oil exporter to Europe and North America. Here's another interesting fact; 15 of the 19 September 11th hijackers were Saudis. Osama himself is a Saudi. The West needed the Iraqi oil so they wouldn't be totally screwed if the Saudis turned on them like the Iranians did in 1980. The Americans now have to ensure that they get a relatively friendly government installed in Baghdad so the war won't have been for nothing. Well, that's my theory on the Iraq war. And let's not forget which side we in Ireland are on beneath the bullshit. We are Christians. The Americans are Christians. We are Capitalists (like it or not). The Americans are Capitalists. And we, like the Americans, depend heavily on Arab oil. This is why our government is cautious about throwing their full support behind Bush. We need Arab oil and we haven't got the strength to force it out of them!

by become an organizer Tue May 04, 2004 18:20

Look guys please get real, and face the fact that you have been brainwasshed by the consistent media hype, libel and slander, that has been propagated consistently over at least the last two to three months, the whole purpose of which was to scare people away from demonstrating their disent and very deep concern over the privatisation agenda of the EU, militarisation of our otherwise neutral state, human rights violations against desperate people seeking asylum, the thousands of deaths on EU borders, and the very undemocratic structure of the EU which resembles that of the UN ..the list, friends, goes on.

If you have decided not to demonstrate, then those who instigated the media scare campaign have won...

Stop for a moment and think, do some research for yourself, look into things in a bit more depth... perhaps start with a book entitled Weapons of Mass Deception about the Bush propaganda around the war...

If you didn't like the way the protest went then organise yourselves, you can do it... but also try to understand that a lot of the reason why it appeared like it did to you is because you were too frightened, threatened to come out by the huge state presence and the media scare campaign..next time feel the fear and do it anyway

by Drbinoche Tue May 04, 2004 20:42

I totally condemn the loss of innocent life in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I think its a terrible aspect of war and if it were possible to not have it in warfare then I would be 100 times happier. You make it sound like the window was not broken and yet there is a photo of it, and also a rough discription of how it happened.

You missed my point entirely on why the police reacted the way they did, they are NOT trained to do any different, because, during any protest, you cannot tell how violent it is going to get until it does. There was NO way the Garda could have said we'll only use a certain amount of force, its not their duty to do so. Their duty was to prevent the protestors from entering the Farmleigh House/Phoenix Park area.

I say the people cold got hit and sprayed etc knew the risks, thats becuase EVERYONE knew they were not going to be allowed into the Phoenix Park. It was off limits for the day, but you guys decided to try to force your way in, can you not see how the Garda had no option but to stop you trying to force entrance.

You say that Bertie and the rest allowing the US to land planes here is Violent. You see that does not actually follow the definition of violence in the dictionary. At what point did Bertie bomb afghanistan, at what point did he push the button and drop a Daisy Cutter on a small neighbourhood in Baghdad. Oh wait he didn't coz he didn't have the responsibility to do it. You see we are not accomodating the Americans through Shannon coz we LOVE war, the Irish government is doing it coz it is good for business. We need to keep the business there or else there will be alot of unemployed Irish people out protesting how you guys allowed their jobs to go to Frankfurt or Britain. If you stop the Americans landing in Shannon, all that happens is they move over the operation to Frankfurt, we lose alot of revenue and the Iraqis are still getting bombed. No-one wins, well except the Anti-War groups who then have to explain to alot of unemployed Irish people why they should feel jobless but proud.

Can we please not start a debate on what is violent and what is not. The fact is, Violence means the use of force against another person, place or thing. Yes the Garda hitting the protestors was violent, as was the protestors throwing bottles at Police, as is the bombing in Afghanistan.

BTW I am glad one of you Anti-War guys decided to remember the Oul' Afghanis, for months now all the posters read is 'Stop the occupation of Iraq and Palestine' but you seemed to have forgotten about Afghanistan, a country you claim is untamable. If that is such tha case then why is it not in the papers more often.

As for the papers breeding fear, well when graffitti goes up in Dublin from the Wombles saying they want to destroy Dublin streets, and going by their outstanding previous records, you can bet it the papers didn't need to do much fear-mongering. The protestors were associated this time with a bunch of people who actively announce battle plans.

by read further Wed May 05, 2004 00:03

read a bit further than the dictionary and you will see theories which describe all power even that which is passive as violence, this might help you get over that conceptual hump there. Good luck with that.