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Black Ribbons.

category international | anti-war / imperialism | opinion/analysis author Dé hAoine Márta 12, 2004 21:45author by iosaf - black ribbons Report this post to the editors

Today black ribbons appeared throughout Spain and Europe.

In the corner of the screeb of every national TV channel in Spain. In the corner of every local cable TV station in Spain.
On the banner of most national newspapers.
On the doors of many shops, retail chains, ministry of culture, museums, libraries.
In madrid the route of the concentration was overlooked by black ribbons hanging from the tower blocks.

In Valencia the people assembled with black ribbons either drawn on impromtu posters,
some reading "No to Terrorism!", "No to War", "Peace", "We are all Victims".
In barcelona black ribbons appeared earliest on the ministry of culture, and by four o' clock all shops in the central city had closed the largest chain stores flying catalan colours with a black ribbon. In addition to the posters, banners and graffiti that proclaimed "We are all Victims" and "we are with Madrid", small groups moved through the concentration at 7pm with a banner "Bush/Aznar and Al Qaeda are two sides of the same coin", I have to report that the silence was broken by applause from every section of the crowd.
I have to write, that today was not "Auturem La Guerra!" nor was it the general strike. It was supposed to be simply silent.
and so all shops closed with the notalbe exception of those who primarily serve the tourist. As a companion remarked only the tourists seemed to be light-hearted.

Specifically The Irish bars of C/Ferran remained open after Mc Donalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken had closed. The Pakistani souvenir stores which were the only to remain open during the general strike remained open.

But today was not a general strike.

As President (in functions) Aznar addressed the nation, a black ribbon hung on the flag behind him.

As he joined with the leaders of trade unions, the prince Felipe, and the former president of Catalonia, black ribbons were drawn on the banner, he _too_ held.

Black Ribbons mean something.

When parents cut black cloth and pin a ribbon on their small children and bring them out into the street, to stand in silence something has been meant.

March 11th, for the Spanish "M11" for the american 3/11 is an atrocity the scale of which will not properly be felt in any period of state sponsered mourning. The effects of 198 dead and 1400 wounded in a city a few million, in a country of less than 40 million reach into every town and neighbourhood.
They reached Ireland and the UK too.
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63809#comment65045
They reached France, where the state has reacted exactly as the US did to 9/11 by putting the country on alert. By three in the afternoon all metro stations of Paris had been clamped down in displays of armed security and the posters "Basta YA!" had appeared on every pillar.

¿Have black ribbons reached the USA?

Mr bush has promised the assistance of the USA to Spain, in the same week that he has tossed the sod for a monument to mourning.
Madrid 11th of March was and is an atrocity.
and we are all victims, from those who collapsed the telecom system yesterday in frantic bids to locate relatives, to those who today saw their beliefs called into question our subject to cruel eye of prejudice.
I stood in silence with my Israeli companion in a row with three imams of this city and thought, there is much I could write, there is a lot I could throw out into the ether and cyberspace. But sometimes less is more.

Against Terrorism
Against War
Against Lies
We Are All Victims.

author by .publication date Aoine Márta 12, 2004 22:27Report this post to the editors

.

ribbonweb.jpg

author by Eoin Dubskypublication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 00:39Report this post to the editors

Thank you Iosaf for sharing this with us here in Ireland. I finally got in touch via email with friends in Spain today, thankfully they are safe. Just now I was having a conversation with my little sister and my parents about love of enemy -- if you can't love a rotten High Court judge, how can anyone possibly love those who terrorise them, hate them and harm them so violently? How can one be "for the terrorists bu against the terror"?

author by David C.publication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 02:20Report this post to the editors

...between Islamic and American terrorists. Despite their government's cravenness, Spaniards were almost unanimously against the unnecessary war in Iraq and there can't be the slightest hint of justification by anyone for this deeply evil act. Why can't these people just put down their car bombs and M16s and train bombs and 'smart' bombs and suicide bombs and cruise missiles and all their other ways of killing? All terrorists are a hideous blight on humanity...

God bless Spain.

author by avi H.publication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 07:50Report this post to the editors

When Israeli buses get blown up by terrorists, never see any stuff about black ribbons on this anti-Semitic site.

author by redjadepublication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 12:05Report this post to the editors

{ Photos by redjade } (c)

1dscn0074madrid.jpg

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Related Link: http://redjade.alturl.com
author by redjadepublication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 12:06Report this post to the editors

{ photos by redjade } (c)

6dscn0051madrid.jpg

7dscn0059madrid.jpg

8dscn0065madrid.jpg

9dscn0024madrid.jpg

Related Link: http://redjade.alturl.com
author by iosafpublication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 13:58Report this post to the editors

Officially all electoral campaigns are ended.
The most curious newspapers to read are those of 11/3 printed only hours before the atrocity. The campaign had begun to turn dirty. The leading pink block magazine leading with a front page feature "outing presidents", whilst Mr Zapatero had fielded his wife a music teacher and pianist, Mr Rajoy claimed that he wished to be a father, husband and president to all Spaniards. The newspaper electoral adverts promised that day very different carrots to that often misunderstood "mass" the electorate. Zapatero promised better health care and improved pensions, Mr Rajoy offered 30,000 new police and Guardia Civil within the next two years.
However the elections go on tomorrow. I personally feel that they ought to have been postponed a short while, but at cost of over 80million euros spent on fundraising, posters, and such, the cogs of modern democracy still turn.
Auturem La Guerra! has appealed that death does not become an election issue. We have all as a society suffered enough. Some more than others. Those 1600 families effected by either murder or maiming first, those others who have been victims of terror before, and then those minority groups who are the first culprits and scapegoats. To be Basque in Spain is somewhat like being Irish in Britain of the 1970s. No Irish resident would have missed the connections drawn to the Irish Troubles. One Irish resident reported to me that their students had said "this shouldn't shock you, you're Irish you're used to it".
The police forces have stepped up "discreet" monitoring of neighbourhoods with high density of muslim residency. I personally witnessed three imams of BCN go out with their congregations yesterday.

But the elections are tomorrow.

And so questions are being asked.

The Lehandkari issued a statement the morning of 11/3 which I qouted in the newsbreaking post :-
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63790&condense_comments=false#comment64832
He has now demanded with full support of his coalition partners a full and open statement from the Madrid Government.

Likewise Zapatero, has demanded complete transparency from the Madrid Government on the investigation and all statements made relating to the placing of guilt. I can not say which way the people of Spain will vote tomorrow, I can tell you that there are key regions the control of which have normally dictated the terms of absolute majority in the Spanish Parliament. Aznar came to power 8 years ago, on the back of coalition with the centreright nationalist CiU of Catalonia. In that first term Aznar built a reputation for reaching out, that was the time of dialogue and ceasefires and then in his subsequent term with absolute majority - terror again.
& I can tell you that Mr Zapatero long ago promised he would not be president if he did not win more votes than Aznar's appointed successor Mr Rajoy.
I can also tell you that yesterday the Madrid government were joined by the premiers of Portugal and France in their silence. I can also tell you that non-residents had their last chance to vote by postal means two weeks ago. I can also tell you that all of Europe is looking on, united in the core beliefs of our civilised values, regardless of how we think they may best be expressed, and that we all expect our common values to be protected, honestly with regards to our collective.
for "We are the European People".

If it emerges that ETA were responsible which they have vehemently denied, then things will go their course. If it emerges that a Islamic Group were responsible, than things will go their course. Naturally many Europeans will re-think the wisdom of Spanish External Policy, the support of the "Azores 3", the support by Aznar Feb3/2003 for proof of WMD which we now know to be fabricated. The Presence of Spanish troops and security forces in Iraq. The handling of the Parsley Islands (Islas perijls/laila) when the Spanish armed forces took back an islet (the size of rockall) which had been "confiscated" by overly patriotic morrocan policemen last year. If it becomes "truth" that Islamic Terrorism attacked Madrid, both Spaniard and European will wonder the long term wisdom, demonstrated by Madrid in it's treatment of it's neighbours and the jingoism with which it has promoted it's own military forces.

If even the USA and Russia may be attacked, with such catastrophic consequences in human, economic and cultural terms, then so too Spain, and so too Ireland and so too France, Portugal, the UK. We are strong, yes but we are weak as well. And our strong leaders have never had the honesty to admit how weak we are.

In the 21st century the defence of our common values must be planned by the collective with those values we cherish. We may defend our people, from Terror, and we may help the poor of the neighbouring continents of Africa and Asia. And it is time that the 20th century soldier boy leaders left the room and let us do it properly. Soldiers and Tanks, Guns and Bullets will not stop the monster that was spawned by our Civilisation. But wisdom and thought will.


There will be a commentary published on the Spanish General Election M14 2004 Monday afternoon (if not before)(as a sunday papers). Without any joking references to "coups" or anything like that.

The Spanish People really do appreciate the solidarity that has been shown. For Irish readers I can confirm that the condemnation of Taoiseach, cabinet Ministers and the President of Sinn Fein have been reported.
I could also suggest that Pat Cox really doesn't cut any ice anymore. But he'd expect that.

author by Anthony G.publication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 14:05Report this post to the editors

I notice that FF and Bertie Aherne showed his solidarity with the Spanish people by turning up at the spire. What about anti-war types? They've been noticeably quiet. Was Richard Boyd Barrett there? Did the SWP turn up to sell their paper?

author by the catalans.publication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 14:28Report this post to the editors

emergency assembly @ espai obert
last night brought together representatives of multiple collectives and groups.
today is the 2nd day of official mourning,
and this key BCN group has suggested theme:-
'els morts són nostres; les guerres, seues'
the deaths are ours, the wars are theirs.

see BCN indymedia. update feature central column.

with this CRUCIAL info:-

1. Ana Palacio, PP minister of the Exterior has ordered all Spanish embassies to attribute ETA with responsibility.

2. ETA have condemned through all their acknowledged channels any responsibility.

3. Al Qaeda has accepted responsibility through its' known channels.

someone is lying.
so-
we are going to the street again.
it appears
We are needed again on the street.

author by WAR ON TERRORpublication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 15:37Report this post to the editors

So where were you Boyd-Barratt? Where were you Fat Rabbitte? Where were you Joe Higgins? Fighting over "Bin-Tax", roling in mud? Where were you to tell the world that you still oppose the WAR ON TERROR when the world mourned for Spain - where were you? Looking for the "popular" vote - you dont have the popular vote - and you never will! The popular vote is with Spain and her great loss this week! The popular vote wants an end to the terror being inflicted on us by these psychotic extremist regimes! There is no easy way to end it - but there is a way and that way is the WAR ON TERROR! These regimes will be defeated - for our right to life without feer these regimes must crumble!!! Where were you shouting about the WAR when 2.3 million people showed up in Madrid to march agains terrorism! Were the ones trying to stop the terrorists you - you want it to continue!!!! If its Dublin next - Rabbitte - Higgins - Boyd Barratt where will you be then? Still opposing the WAR ON TERROR?????

author by you know who and where i am.publication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 17:28Report this post to the editors

how to say something.

the CNI who are the Spanish Secret Service
have issued a statement through their accepted channel the news org. SER.

it basically says:- 99% sure since thursday morning it was a small group of islamic terrorists, they are not certain it was "Al Q" because to be quite frank, the version of "Al Q" you have been consistently fed by the established media was not completely accurate.

If the Spanish Government control the CNI, and trust them, why did they instruct all embassies to blame ETA?

The CNI does not often enter the headlines, it boasts no propaganda movies with 007 characters or toys, but it did lose several of it's members in an ambush in Iraq where the present Spanish Government sent them without telling the present Spànish parliament or opposition that they were there at all, at all.


It is at this point (afternoon M13) that the emotional reaction of the "mass" changes,
the TV is now discredited something that will not change for a while a cracking good comedy series might right it. The Harrowing grief now turns to other emotions, anger, wrath and for not a few "shadenfreude". This is not altogether good.
-Calm- ought be the touch word. Regardless of your "political prejudice" or more importantly what you percieve you might lose next.

http://www.cadenaser.com/articulo.html?d_date=&xref=20040313csrcsrnac_9&type=Tes&anchor=csrcsrpor

author by dmoranpublication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 23:07Report this post to the editors

Prayers are with all those who are grieving. A terrible atrocity. War on Terror is one thing, but let us not forget that war is terror. The 80/90% of people against Aznar's firm support for the US/UK invasion/occupation in Iraq were not listened too. Whether it was ETA/Al Qu'aida or whoever, the choice humanity faces, in the wise words of MLK, is between 'non-violent co-operation or violent non-existence'.
May the deceased of all terror rest in peace.

Related Link: http://www.ploughsharesireland.org
author by josepublication date Sath Márta 13, 2004 23:52Report this post to the editors

Shame on Bertie to show up at this event. Did he claim to be against the war in Iraq.

He has blood on his hands and is in the back pocket of the USA.

The only good thing that might come out of this event is that the Spanish punish Aznar in the elections and boot him out for not listening to 90% of the Spanish people who didnt want Spain to go into war in Iraq

author by Arthur McKevittpublication date Domh Márta 14, 2004 00:07author email arthur at mckevitt2049 dot fsnet dot co dot ukReport this post to the editors

With the Madrid death toll now 200, it's a very sad time for the maimed victims and the relatives of the dead, but when we saw the frenzied efforts of the rescue services, oblivious to the risk to themselves, to extricate the victims there must surely be hope for human kind.

The horror has been described as Europe's September 11th, but that wasn't the day the world changed. That happened when war was launched on defenseless Iraq and it's children. This buried the rule of law, democracy and it won't be long before human rights goes the same way.

The people are losing control and when 90% of Spaniards were against the Iraq war it made no difference. Irish anti war protester jailed - what hypocracy!

We are allowed to see the horror of Madrid but not Iraq. We can only guess what it must have been like for them: that is the civilians that were deliberately targeted. We can't say, like Hitler's henchmen that we did not know.

The question we should be asking ourselves, if there is to be any future in a sane world, is why are we allowing other nations children to be treated differently to our own and has the anti-war movement got a point or not?

The future is not safe and poses great dangers for mankind, with blatent manipulation the order of the day. We owe it to the victims to speak up now and do what we can or we may not get the opportunity to address the future in any meaningful way.

author by Sick of Aznar's Lies!!publication date Domh Márta 14, 2004 05:02Report this post to the editors

A 62 Year Old Basque was killed by a Spanish Policeman for refusing to hang an 'Eta No' sign to his small bread shop window. He was shot 4 times at close range.

The arm of the state pulled the trigger,
while Aznar's regime and it's campaign of lies is the ultimate responsible for his death

Aznar and his puppets always knew that there wasn't any Basque involvement in the attacks, but He kept lying to all the Spanish population in order to divert from the fact that
He's the one responsible for bringing Spain in the Oil War, against the wishes of all its population.

I applaud the people of Madrid, Barcelona, Bilbao, Santiago, Valladolid, Almeria for taking to the streets against this regime of lies. I agree with Catalan, perhaps a new demo in Dublin would be helpful, given the new developments.

Considering that unfortunately you too somehow fell victim of Aznar's lies ( see your banner about ETA...) I suggest
that at the next demo you may also light a candle in memory Ángel Berroeta, 61 year old , killed today by state forces in Pamplona.

In memory of the recent victims in Iraq, Madrid, Pamplona.

Related Link: http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2004/03/13/espana/1079188....html
author by avi H.publication date Domh Márta 14, 2004 06:17Report this post to the editors

What about all the deceased and maimed victims of terror in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa? Never got any of this reaction to any of the terrorist atrocities in Israeli buses, nightclubs and cafes, even when most of the victims were children. It's just so flaming obvious that people on this site don't care about the lives of Jews.

Oh and by the way, the Spanish have the unfortunately higly experienced Israeli rescue services helping them: Europeans may not care about Jews but Jews care about Europeans. Put that in your pipes and smoke it.

author by redjadepublication date Domh Márta 14, 2004 15:00Report this post to the editors

OK Avi,

You have a good point - if examined in a vacuum.

Since you picked Israelis as your example: do Israelis (or Irish, for that matter) wear black ribbons when a car bomb goes off in Sri Lanka? Or when a car bomb goes off in Pakistan? Or when a bomb kills many in Sierra Leone?

As important as it is to have positive mass reactions against war and terrorism, it is often a reaction to the 'atrocity of the day', inspired by the media attention given to it.

Point is, an anti-war/pro-peace movement is needed world-wide that addresses all violence and attacks the root causes of such violence - hunger, oppression, imperialism, etc. The beginnings of such a world movement occured on Feb 15th 2003.

This also means, of course, a rejection of the idea that violence against violence and terror against terror is also unacceptable - this also means rejecting Sharon's strategy of ethnic cleansing and state-terrorism.

So, Avi, will you also wear a ribbon of solidarity for the victims of Sharon?

Related Link: http://redjade.alturl.com
author by iosaf - day 3 mourning.publication date Domh Márta 14, 2004 15:54Report this post to the editors

1. f.a.o Avi-
we are all victims, and if we are to stop being victims we must found common ground between us. You know (if you are a reader as well a commentator) that I consider Israel to be an integral part of Europe's heritage and culture, and that I consider anti-semitism to be one of the most dangerous side-effects of the collective psychological repression which has resulted from Terror, in Israel, and in the Palestinian territories, yet I can not bring myself to support Sharon. Can I not tell you that the suffering is the same, the blood the same, and surely there must be more than one way to stop it?

2. f.a.o. whomever cares-
One thing ought be becoming clear, we "All" now have terror. And terror is spreading. We need to think why it is spreading. 10 years ago, we spoke of only a few terrorist groups and the death toll they inflicted was numbered in tens. They consistently portrayed the image of being military groups. Hence the term "paramilitary". They attracted attention to their causes mostly of a national or counter national flavour by being "spectacular", but consistently said things like "legitimate targets" and stuff like that.
Today we are faced with myriad terrorist "groups", some which haven't even thought to "warn us", to "claim responsibility", to "legitimise their targets according to some warped morality of revenge tit for tat or whatever it is", and haven't thought to behave like "para-militaries". They haven't issued any manifesto, any demand, nor any indication of what is it they want. They seem quite content to want to kill, maim and divide us.

We all need to do some serious thinking, in Spain in Ireland in Israel in Washington. No-one can pretend to forge global alliance against "terror" as long as the morality projected by the most powerful and apparently most targetted nations is seen as hypocritical to so many who perhaps could help working in their lands and communities stop this desease. I do believe 21st century terrorism is a desease.

As for Spain, remember that they still have ETA. The Spanish still face that "terror" which at least they "recognise" and have grown to rationalise in some way, which naturally has provoked prejudice for both Spaniard and Basque. But now they have something else.
Something which is irrational.

Day 2 of mourning was termed "reflection" and amongst the messages exchanged between the two general sides of "spanish society" was one page left with a candle on Placa Jaume (BCN), it read:- "Marx and Lenin your twisted students are continuing the hell of terror". Do you understand the polarisation such a note hints at?

For the central city barcelonans (famous or infamous for their leftishness) last night a "cacerola" (the banging of pots and pans") under the slogan "our deaths their wars" then became a a mass of shouting against the PP. We walked shouting "no to manipulation", but I knew I was manipulated, and that we all were and still are regardless of whether we are "left" or "right".

you may see photos and read an english report from Robin at
http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/76947/index.php
The note I refer to "blaming the rojos" was on the ground in front of the banner "blaming the fascists" in the 7th photo down amongst the candles.

I believe everyone knows that such polarisation is dangerous, and undesirable, but it is an effect of the shock and disbelief at the masacre, and the confusion and panic it has caused. How are we as a society to properly react? Are we all to stay in silence at home with the TV? Are we all to go to church and pray? Are we all to support more repression? The very fact that now we are presented with two possible culprits means yet more confusion and irrationality.

We need to carry _all_ of our societies if we are stop this. It is my belief after experiencing this "fear", this "anxiety" for almost three days now, that the Terrorists are feeding on our divisions and indeed that they are creating them. They want us to blame each other, and it has to be written that day 2, sparked rumours and panic in all sections of society.
I can not reinforce the "fear" I have felt, and the anxiety which I know to be irrational.
Yet it is there, even the domestic dogs and cats pick up on it. It is a mass hysteria.

People of both left and right unconsciously spreading rumours that either "the PP offices and had been burnt to a crisp all over Spain and rioting anarchists were attacking PP members", or "the rojos/anarchists were being shot by marauding police".

Isn't that exactly what the Terrorists wanted?

Let us be honest a moment with ourselves.

This is 2004
not 1936, not 1939, not 1914.
We (i do believe) inherited the idea of European Unity from those who wished that we never again fall to such divisions. I believe that project has failed the poorest of the continent in favouring freedom of capital, over creating true continental unity. I can not write of "federal" or anything else. But that idea that "never again" must we be a "house divided" hopefully will help us, move through this massacre, this shock and come together and stop Terror. The strangest thing is that before we "talk" to any "terrorist", we need to "talk" to each other.

Please Let US BEGIN.

author by kokomeropublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 09:54Report this post to the editors

Attempting to make political capital out of the murder of 200 innocent Spanish civilians marks a new low even for you Avi.

The Spanish people in contrast to the Israelis do not approve of the so-called "war on terror" and occupation of Iraq. They do not agree with their government and said so at the polls yesterday in the most unambiguous of terms.

The majority Israelis on the other hand, with the exception of a brave few, have Palestinian blood on their hands as they willingly enforce Israel's brutal and illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. This includes you, who by your own admission, have taken part in the targeting of Palestinian civilians.

Unlike the Israelis there were no F16s,helicopter gunships, or tanks dispatched to lay waste to Basque towns, nor were ETA or Batasuna activists murdered on a whim in the aftermath of Thursdays attacks as has so often been the barbaric hallmark of the Israelis.

The difference between the Israelis and the Spanish could not be more stark, and the huge majority of peace-loving Spaniards deserve our sympathy.

Perhaps the Israelis should take their cue from the Spanish people, and get rid of Sharon at the polls, end the occupation and make peace with their neighbours as the Jordanians and Egyptians have done with them?

author by Mary Kellypublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 10:56author email newpal at eircom dot netReport this post to the editors

Iosaf,
thank you for your very moving and heartbreaking reports, and your insights.
Very glad to see photos of the vigil of solidarity held in Dublin, though disgusted to see Bertie Ahern cashing in on it.
If he and Gerry Adams are truly condeming this barbaric attack, will they continue to have George Bush visit this country in June welcomed by them selves?
Unless they condemn the barbaric actions of the US administration for invading Afghanistan and Iraq, illegally, and unprovoked,they cannot be taken seriously!
They are both aligning Irish citizens with the worlds greatest terrorists by allowing George Bush to set foot on Irish soil.

At the George Galloway meeting on Saturday in Dublin,we had a minutes silence for all the victims of this terrible attack in Madrid.

I asked especially that solidarity be sent to Spanish peace activists who protested so vociferously and pasionately against their leader's insistence in helping the US to invade Iraq last March. They need our support and strength now.
Iosaf, thank you also for saying we must talk to each other. I agree. In the Irish context, I feel it has been very important to clarify that the IAWM has not been efectively representative of the goals and aspirations of some of the most active members of the peoples resistence in Ireland. Neither has it been inviting to the many people who feel pasionately, but have not yet become active because of the way the IAWM has been operating.
I hope now that more people who say they care, will become involved. I imagine whatever new network forms out of the various groups that have disaffiliated from the IAWM, it may be easier for all groups to co operate now that the different goals are clarified. I certainly hope so.

I and others here in Ireland am strongly focussed on getting the US out of Shannon in the most practical way possible.ie supporting a concerted campaign to get rid of US warpalnes from our civilian airports, and getting domestic and International law upheld.
Until members of the Irish Government, Irish Lawyers and Barristers,the Gardai Siochana, and the Irish Army wake up and DO SOMETHING about the atrocities that are daily commited in our name, by allowing US warplanes refuel every day and night at Shannon airport, we activists will continue our work, even from Limerick prison.

Iosaf, that work is the only way of showing you and your grieving people my heart goes out to you.
Love and great strength to you all.
Mary Kelly

author by righteous pragmatistpublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 11:19Report this post to the editors

If Al-Qeada really cared about the Iraq War surely they would have attacked the Spanish government who ignored its peoples views? Surely killing 200 innocent Spanish men women and children possibly many who opposed the Iraq war is counterprodutive?
If on September 11 2001 if their real target was the American government why did they attack New York City and kill almost 3000 civilans with the intention of killing thousands and thousands more? How many of them voted for George Bush? How many of them were old enough to have remembered America's other wars of aggression?
If France was opposed to the Iraq War why then did Al-Qeada blow up a French oil tanker in the Persian Gulf?
If Turkey was opposed to the Iraq war why then was it trageted in late 2003 by bombings which killed civllians?
If Morroco was against the Iraq War was it attacked?
If the vast majority of Australians were against the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 why then were innocent Australian civilians attacked in Bali by Al-Qeada?

Surely Al-Qeada has shown that they do not care what position pro- or anti-war that the people of Europe or America or Australia or Asia or South America or anywhere?
They are a bunch of fanatics whose stated aim ( read their messages that they have sent to Al-Jazirra) is destablise democracy and establish a world islamic empire and a nw caliphate. As one group in London stated they want to see the cresent flag fluttering over the ruins of the EU plarliament.

No room for a hammer and sickle flag.
That means you marxist are on their list too.

So what do we do?

LETS FIGHT THE MOTHERFUCKERS!

author by Joepublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 11:44Report this post to the editors

Because as it says at the top "Bush/Aznar and Al Qaeda are two sides of the same coin are two sides of the same coin". Both organisations are led by oil billionares with a very long history of targetting civilians to achieve their policy aims. Bush sr spent the last year of WWII machine gunning Japanese fishing boats in the inland sea. Bush jr continued the Clinton sanction regimes that killed over 1,000,000 Iraqis. When he invaded Iraq his military were told not to count civilian casualities.

The victims of the Bush terror have been mainly in the '3rd world'. So for that matter have the victims of Al Qaeda terror but some of the Al Qaeda victims have also been in the US and western Europe. Maybe this is why you want to 'get them' in particular?

author by Righteous pragamatistpublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 13:10Report this post to the editors

comparing Bush to Bin Laden if it is true or not is not the issue ( I believe the comparison is complete wacko bullshit but ill continue on that logic to make my point)
If Bush and Ossama are both sides of the one coin how do we stop Spaniards from being blown to smithereens by Al-Qeada terrorists? how do we stop this other than tracking these motherfuckers down and killing them??
Answer that Joe?
What would you do to stop Bin Laden?
How the fuck would you stop him????
??????????????????????

author by the solutionpublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 14:18Report this post to the editors

Hide? No, Hope it will stop? No, Talk? Not possible?
The solution is to take apart the Al Qaeda alliance without encouraging more supporters in the long term.
Long term? Yes, this has no forseeable end.
How bad will it get? They will pretty much use nukes if they can get them.
Thats why Iraq and Libya are officially out of the state sponsored terrorism business.
Lets hope our friend in Pakistan has not messed up to bad and wide collalitions can stop N. Korea and Iran. Regieme change would be ideal but it will take more terror attacks to make that internationally acceptable.
That is the war on terror, alot of people had changed the channel but that are tuning back in now.
And alot of people will drag their heals the whole way - but that wont stop the determination - some people may want regieme change in America because they think it will stop Al Qaeda - it wont.

author by Joepublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 15:00Report this post to the editors

If your looking for an instant solution your going to be disappointed. Al Quada is out of the box a long time since the Afghan proxy war was fought between the superpowers. As the old saying goes 'If I was going there I wouldn't start from here'.

But as you asked

"If Bush and Ossama are both sides of the one coin how do we stop Spaniards from being blown to smithereens by Al-Qeada terrorists? how do we stop this other than tracking these motherfuckers down and killing them??"

At some point in time some one may well have to track 'these motherfuckers down and kill them'. But it is simply foolish to imagine either that this is what the 'war on terror' is about or that this is a quick solution. Rather both 'Bush and Ossama' are using the war on terror to push their own political project.

The Iraq war is the obvious example on the Bush side. It is now clear that what opponents of the war were saying at the start is true. There were no substantive links between Saddam and Al Quada. The minor links that existed were on the basis of 'my enemies enemy is my friend' and went nowhere because Saddam and bin Laden had less in common then Bush and bin Laden. The 'war on terror' was Bush's excuse for doing something he wanted to do anyway, the invasion of Iraq.

As to Al Quada its major motivation is islamism - a middle eastern political terms that means not Muslims in general but the political project of constructing theocratic states. While they might go on about Palestine they would have as little in common with secular nature of the PLO as they had with Saddam.

Their project is the construction of an Islamic republic that last existed at the time of the old Baghdad caliphate. That was one reason they wanted to get of Saddam (an apostate turned born again) and a secular Iraq.

Most Muslims, even those who consider themselves deeply religous, do not want the version of the theorcratic state put forward by Al Quada. This is a problem for bin Laden but Bush has already stated the solution 'those who are not with us are against us'.

The nature of S11 and M11 or Bali is not that Al Quada thought these events would force the US to withdraw from the middle east. Almost certainly they thought the oppposite, that these bombings would engage the US and drive it to ever greater levels of war and occupation.

This is good for Al Quada. Because just as in the 'west' Bush tells us that we are 'with him or against him' so in the Middle East Al Quada tells Muslims that they are 'with them or against them'. In order to get anywhere Al Quada has to polarise public opinion in just the way Bush has to polarise opinion. It should be obvious that faced with Bush's ultimatum and the reality of the occupation of Iraq some are going to say 'fuck you Bush, I'm against you'.

This is also why Al Quada was quite happy to bomb a country where 90% opposed the war on Iraq. They don't give a fuck about that 90%, in fact they don't want 'westerners' opposing the war on Iraq at all. They want us all yelling 'teach them a lesson' because they feed off the polarisation this generates.

There is no mystery as to how 'terrorism' works. All you need are money, weapons and some popular support. The first can be robbed and the second can be bought. The third is the difficult option. As long as the IRA had a significant amount of popular support it could continue the war against Britain year after year. It could not win a military victory but it could not be defeated either. The Brits recognised this and went for a negotiated settlement.

Not all republicans went for this. Some wanted to fight on and for a while they did. But after Omagh the popular support they had evaporated and they have been stuck ever since. They can still rob the money to buy the guns but without any popular support they cannot carry out operations.

Chairman Mao had some line about freedom fighters being like the fish in the sea (of the people). One mans freedom fighter is anothers terrorist and Al Quada swim in the sea of muslim indignation. Probably not so much active support as simply turning a blind eye.

As long as that sea exists then so can Al Quada. The rivers that flow into that sea include Israel, US imperialism (but also French and British) and poverty. US strategy to date has consisted of pumping even more water into the rivers in the hope of drowning the fish. You are standing on the banks shouting 'drown the fuckers' and boasting about how efficent the water pumping mechanisms are. You want frog men to enter the water and spear the fish but its a huge ocean out there. And the water is rising at your feet.

In the short term the key task is to fight the polarisation that both Bush and bin Laden are driving. As the CNT in Madrid declared on M11 "It seems unreal that, nowadays, fully installed in the 21st century, we still have to keep reminding to people that workers are exactly the same here in Madrid than in Cordoba, Barakaldo, La Bisbal, Kandahar or Bagdad" http://struggle.ws/stw/statements/CNTmar11.html

The massive anti-war marches on F15 and the actions since then demonstrate that the Bush/bin Laden polarisation is a false one. They are of course seen as being directed against Bush but the huge turn out is also damaging for those pushing the line in the middle east that war with 'the west' is the only option.

In the longer run you have to divert the rivers that feed the sea. This is no mean task. The middle east has most of the worlds oil reserves so getting US/French/British imperialism out of the region is a mammoth task. It is riddled with (western backed) dictatorships whose corruption ensures the people stay in poverty. And solutions to the conflict in Israel/Palestine require a complete break with the politics of nationalism and identitiy.

But what other way is there? Occupation of every country with a significant Islamic population and an informer on every street. The same for the exile communites here in Europe? Even if this was possible (and it is not) it would not be desirable in any sense of the word. And it is what Israel has done in Palestine, yet still the bombs go off. All that is acheived is the very polarisation we need to avoid.

If you want peace then fight for justice.

Related Link: http://struggle.ws/stopthewar.html
author by Badmanpublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 15:09Report this post to the editors

You've got it entirely wrong. There are goodies and there are badies. The goodies have to kill all the badies and then they win. This obvious point is taken from the computer game theory of global politics. It is obvious to anybody that has played enough computer games that killing all the badies is the only solution.

author by hmmmpublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 15:17Report this post to the editors

Yes, it really is very complicated and the only possible solution is for you to sign up to my crackpot left ideas that are a pipedream
please click here for details...

dodgyleftpropaganda.ie

author by Badmanpublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 15:24Report this post to the editors

Down with those dodgy complex ideas! The world is not a complex place. We just have to kill the baddies! Computer games have proven again and again that if you kill the baddies you win! Now if we can only figure out the cheat codes to get unlimited lives and weapons, it'll be really easy!

Kill the badies!

author by Joepublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 17:17Report this post to the editors

RP the ocean is the people (see above) . So draining the ocean means killing around one billion people.

The US backed Guatemalan government tried to do this to defeat the indigenous uprising in the North in the 1980's. They wipped out the male population of 'military age' (15-50) of towns and villages across the region, killing perhaps 100,000 in all.

Of course as I already pointed out you could try something short of this, the informer on every corner approach. But this has not worked for a tiny population (1 million) in a tiny geographic area (Israel) under the direction of one of the most technologicaly advance and trained armies and secret police forces in the world.

Your own schoolyard survival strategy seems to be to side with the biggest bully in the hope he'll protect you from the second biggest. All very well but your gonna be the cannon fodder in his wars with bully 2 and that war will go on withour conclusion.

author by Julie Stoutpublication date Luan Márta 15, 2004 20:07author email juliebstout-peace at yahoo dot comauthor address Conway, Arkansas, USAReport this post to the editors

The proposed strategy of "hunt down the motherfuckers and kill 'em" does not work. Anyway, genocide is clearly totally in violation of several international laws, just to remind anyone sick or insane enough to resolutely endorse it.

If you are so filled with hate that the only way that you can feel safe is to murder thousands of other people, maybe it would be more efficient for you to simply kill yourself. That is the advice that I'll give to George Bush if he asks me.

Somebody asked if black ribbons have "made it to the US yet," and the answer is no. I have just read about them today, March 16, on Indymedia Ireland. Spain isn't making the papers, at least in the South. Americans are pretty burned out on 9-11 red ribbons and Iraq yellow ribbons, so it is doubtful that a new ribbon for fascism is going to be successfully marketed. The big news this week has been about troops rotating back from Iraq.

The whole reason I am lurking around here is because I feel like this is a pretty good English-language source of European underground news. The press here in this part of the American South is totally censored corporate garbage, and I believe half of the stories in the local papers are still written by the CIA as they were in the 1970s.

author by .publication date Máirt Márta 16, 2004 00:09Report this post to the editors

I know for a fact that the CIA are writing those news articles - I once had an interview for the job - better pay than most government jobs...

author by Northern Eyepublication date Máirt Márta 16, 2004 02:42Report this post to the editors

Good feckin stuff Joe boy. keep it up and all that.

author by kokomeropublication date Máirt Márta 16, 2004 10:04Report this post to the editors

Well said Joe. The military strategy will fail as it failed in Ireland and round the globe for the past century.

The only way to defeat Bin Liner and Co. from a European perspective is to use a stick and carrot approach:

1. Stop propping up corrupt regiemes in the Middle east and North Africa (Saudi Arabia, Israel etc.) and introduce sanctions against those who are uncompliant
2. End post-colonial interference (including occupation and military bases) and proxy wars in Algeria, Western Sahara etc.
3. Provide economic access to European market for Middle Eastern and North African countries and end subsidies to European countries exporting to these markets

All of these points will help to improve the standard of living and prospects of people living in the Middle East and North Africa and in the medium term this will drain the sea of sympathy for Al Quaida.

While security is important to defend the lives of citizens it must not come at the cost of personal freedom and is really a means to buy time for the effect of points 1.-3. to kick in.

Security at the end of the day will be enhanced most by 1.-3. and even serious talks on these points (a middle East/North African summit meeting) would have an immediate effect in terms of security cooperation.

Point 3. will also have an effect in the medium term of economic migration by allowing people to have prospects for a decent life in their own countries, something which people like myself who had to emigrate during the 80s can identify with.

We should not wait for the US to do this, they should take care of their backyard rather than interfering in everybody elses, and similarly the Aussies should do the same in theirs before it is too late.

author by Righteous pragmatistpublication date Máirt Márta 16, 2004 11:13Report this post to the editors

Doing what you suggest will DO NOTHING!
These Islamic extremist motherfuckers are religious fanatics.
This has nothing to do with poverty or injustice in the Middle East and nothing to do with US foreign policy.
These fucking bastards want to introduce Sharia law to the entire world.
That means an end to freedom, democracy, human rights, peace and the future.
It means a return to the Dark Ages.

Of course your going to quote Marx and Lenin about the "superstructure" of society. Apparently religion and popular belief is just the manifestation of the control of the exploitative class.

If the US is exploitative then why the fuck isnt it Islamic eh?

author by Joepublication date Máirt Márta 16, 2004 12:39Report this post to the editors

Well first off I'm an anarchist rather than a marxist leninist so you safe from such quotations for now.

To an extent you are right, in terms of the ideology of Al Quada this is all about religion (and power). This should be pretty clear from what I have already written above. The S11 kamakazes were mostly from wealthy backgrounds.

But the reason why many ordinary people support Al Quada is not simply about religion. It is more too do with the feeling that at least someone is willing to fight back against the overwhelming military and economic superiority of the west. Against the fact that the places they live are either under western occupation or run by puppet governments. Against the oppression of the Palestianians.

Just as people like you support George Bush without having to share his christian fundamentalism so people elsehere support Al Quada without sharing their islamic fundamentalism. Both groups do so not on the basis of religious ideology but on the basis of 'get the motherfuckers'. You loved to see the bombs raining down on Baghdad, they loved to see the planes hitting the WTC in New York.

This support without which Al Quada could not function has everything to do with "poverty or injustice in the Middle East and ... US foreign policy." Not because Al Quada cares about poverty but because without the opposition these conditions create why the hell would anyone support them.

The easiest confirmation of this is simply the list of individuals who have temporarly filled the role of the new Saladin over the decades. From Nassir to Gaddafi to the Ayatollah to bin Laden. A cast of characters who would pretty much all have hated each others guts, even the religous ones are from opposite sides of the sectarian divide. What one thing did they all have in common? For a time they were able to pose as the champion against western imperialism.

I don't expect to convince you. You'll continue to imagine some military solution exists if only the western governments were ruthless enough. But think about this. The turn away from military strongmen (Nassir, Gaddari, Ayatollah Komeni) to simple terrorism is a consequence not of the weakness of the western military but of its strength. After the 1991 war it became very clear that any middle east leader who proposed a conventional war against the west was an idiot. It just involved your troops being killed by an enemy they couldn't see, who was too far away to shoot at and in any case was often so heavily armoured that even if you could see and hit them you'd do no damage.

The turn to an unconventional war that murderously targettted civilians is no surprise. Probably the Al Quada strategy is to provoke further western invasions and occupations. If much of the middle east came to be destablisied the way Iraq is today this not only gets rid of the old 'apostate' ruling class for them but also puts western troops in the sort of unconventional warfare situations where they can be killed.

Remember the core Al Quada slogan in terms of this war is 'the west loves life, we love death'. They want to turn the entire middle east and beyond into one big civil war that sucks in the west and allows increasing levels of casualties to be inflicted. They are not worried about casualties on their side (suicide bombers don't expect to come back). They reckon correctly that such western occupations would polarise opinion so people came over to them on the one side and on the other over time wear down the will of the western rulers to fight. In short like George Bush they want the other side to 'bring it on'.

Remember at this stage they are not seeking a compromise or a negotiated settlement. They are seeking escalation and polarisation. The Madrid bombing on other words was designed to engineer exactly the sort of response you have been giving here.

Related Link: http://struggle.ws/stopthewar.html
author by iosafpublication date Máirt Márta 16, 2004 12:39Report this post to the editors

1. read the Koran and find the sutras which proscribe employer and employee relationships.
2. read about the Islamic Revolution in Iran, you may like to find survivors and exiles from that country many of whom took up residence in Ireland. You might like to talk to them.
3. read about the reforms attempted in several Islamic states and the need for laiety and secular values in society to be balanced with true longterm prudence to assist both male and female children to grow in full respect of each others' roles and that played by those not in their faith.

4. read about the anti-War protests and read about the anti-War protesters.

So rightous pragmatist, you have a lot of catching up to do, almost two years, it will bring you through conversation, through prejudice, through arabic to hebrew, through farsi to english and then you will of course remember to book yourself a reading desk at the libraries (all three of them). Then you will of course pay a visit to the Vatican and learn about their perspective.

I very much doubt you will do that. But "commenting" is so easy isn't it? And worrying about your taxes and your car insurance and your kids and your nieghbours. Yes. I must admit I was never good at those things. Each to their own. We all find roles for ourselves.
We all find our peers. Finally I and my peers have spent enough on internet cafés in a daily barrage of insult, claim and counterclaim which has seen a battle of ideas and faith joined across newswires, chatrooms, and blogs. We have been manipulated, some of us imprisoned, put at personal risk by tactics which were as much psychological as judicial. In common parlance you heaped all your shit on us, and because we started from the shit, we could stand tall. And we have many reinforcements, we have many now who will stand in our place.


You are neither rightous nor pragmatic.

& now I would forget you. But I forget nothing.

Bye Bye.

author by righteous pragmatistpublication date Máirt Márta 16, 2004 15:16Report this post to the editors

"We have been manipulated, some of us imprisoned, put at personal risk by tactics which were as much psychological as judicial. In common parlance you heaped all your shit on us, and because we started from the shit, we could stand tall. And we have many reinforcements, we have many now who will stand in our place. "


What the fuck are you talking about you idiot?

author by serenitypublication date Máirt Márta 16, 2004 15:41Report this post to the editors

and you will then learn what I'm talking about.
it's entitled "black ribbons".
then go and read "regime changes" published and copyrighted under international law prior to open publishing.
then look at your pathetic presumptions and ignorance and know that you really are not so good at what you do.
are you? good thing you only control counter media manipulation in such a small place.

author by kokomeropublication date Máirt Márta 16, 2004 18:39Report this post to the editors

he is saying that you are a ignoramous and should educate yourself on the subject matter before spouting the drivel you have subjected us to over the past few days. Obviously I agree with him!

author by Moa Wordpublication date Céad Márta 17, 2004 11:31Report this post to the editors

Freely quoting Chairman Moa, one of the greatest mass-murders of all time, to support an argument about how to prevent killing and terror. What kind of German would quote Hitler about how to be accomodating to Jews? What kind Russian would quote Stalin about how to be a benign dictator? What of person would quote Moa like that? Do you not think we know who he is and what he did? You obviously enjoy the "shit" you get covered in...

author by +publication date Céad Márta 17, 2004 16:05Report this post to the editors

Moa is something else.
:-)

author by Mao Wordpublication date Céad Márta 17, 2004 18:51Report this post to the editors

sorry Chairman, got your name spelt wrong in my disgust, may you rest in peace.

author by :-)publication date Céad Márta 17, 2004 20:11Report this post to the editors

if you find older sylabaries you will follow the 19th century british system and render it Mao Tse Tung neatly putting it all into three sylables. But if you follow the reformed orthography you would render it Mao Tzehdong. You may also write it in different ways too, but no matter, he went to the moon long ago.

author by ~~~@~~~publication date Aoine Márta 26, 2004 23:45Report this post to the editors

is the Nordic Rune for "seperation", as well as many other things, we normally don't tell you that type of thing, but it's important.
The universal peace sign of Bertrand Russell was also derived from nordic runes.
The Auturem la Guerra symbol as used in BCN is really good, recommend using it exactly as it was, without changing it.
might seem silly but silly world it is, that's why the silly billys get their jobs.
But oh don't they need help when the shit hits the fan.
"Fan" by the way is the standard 19th century rendering of the Cantonese word for "food".

And no you didn't know that.

we do.
trust us.
we are open source.
now don't intefere in our work and play.

author by okupepublication date Aoine Márta 26, 2004 23:52Report this post to the editors

there is site to peruse.
http://www.csoa-hamsa.tk/
"eviction equals disturbance"
being the slogan.

the 3 okupes are still hanging from the tower block at 70 metres on C/Tarragona in the district of Sants in the city of Barcelona.
They went up earlier
C/f
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63946&condense_comments=false#comment66632

and central column
http://barcelona.indymedia.org/

Related Link: http://indymedia.nl/nl/2004/03/17787.shtml
author by iosafpublication date Sath Márta 11, 2006 10:56Report this post to the editors

198 confirmed dead.
7 couldn't be confirmed as human remains.
5000 injured and / or maimed.
a country and more - a language block - more a continent - traumatised & terrorised
one quarter were migrants without papers who were regularised post-humously.
Most of those responsible either died in the act or the subsequent suicide bomb when their Madrid flat was surrounded.
2 more innocent people died in the horrific division which followed as accusations flew.
(1 basque for not posting an "antiETA" poster in his shop, 1 morrocan migrant to Barcelona for being the wrong race for his local skinheads)
198 trees were planted in Madrid "the forest of the absent".
11,000,000 people assembled throughout the state in their city and town squares under the banner "for the constitution, for peace and no to Terror in any form". They were joined by hundreds in dublin (photographed above).
40,000 people then assembled on a mobile phone network throughout the state and demanded the truth from the PP governing party blockading their offices, till they got the truth.
a general election came on the 14th of March.
The party elected the PSOE first act on assuming power a month later was to withdraw troops from Iraq.

Nothing will bring them back.
They are absent.

may the Absent Rest In Peace
may the Absent Rest In Peace

author by Gay Geori - Pooves for Peacepublication date Sath Márta 11, 2006 11:15Report this post to the editors

let's not forget the victims of nationalist terrorism who died as a result of ETA's terrorism too...

Related Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_ribbon
author by iosafpublication date Sath Márta 11, 2006 11:28Report this post to the editors

the history of Black ribbons was written on this page as it happened. you don't need to goto the wikipedia page. we started it in Bcn. there is no "ministry of culture" it was us. We had used armbands and draped flags it for the declaration of the war before. if you search for July 7th on imc uk you'll see I suggested it for them to use to. Today is about remembering the victims of M11. You can talk about ETA another day. 2 years ago, so many people only wanted to talk about ETA. including editors on this site. Then they wanted to talk about muslims. It added 2 more to the death list. I know you weren't a indymedia ireland regular then. Try and learn from the mistakes of the past.

do you get my point?

They are absent.

author by iosafpublication date Domh Márta 12, 2006 19:30author address barcelonaReport this post to the editors

As I reported in this comment, http://indymedia.ie/article/67956?comment_limit=0&conde...14126 the leader of the victims of M11, had to leave her home in Madrid in 2005 as a result of death threats from right wing and fascist elements. for not mentioning ETA's victims every time she opened her mouth .
http://www.elsemanaldigital.com/arts/47388.asp Strange that a woman who spoke so honestly and with such dignity on behalf of the other victims, so as to even earn adulation from the King of Spain saying "I am proud to be your fellow citizen "
I don't believe its neccesary or desirably to link IRA terrorism with July 7th in London. But a previous commentator, gay geori thought it was. Pilar Manjon has given interviews to La Vanguardia and El Pais on this the 2nd anniversary of Europe's worst terrorist attack. An atrocity which aimed at working people left us all divided, and shocked pushing the bounds of prejudice and our understanding. It was a quite honestly a trauma. 2 years ago tomorrow night a morrocan guy was beaten to death at a station in a small town where I then taught music and art to "under-privelaged kids". This day 2 years ago they had united calling for "basque blood" and they were only kids. This day two years ago basque was shot by an off duty police man for not being "anti-ETA". I was one of a tiny percentage of individuals who did our best to say "wait. think. this has not happened before. bury the dead. don't jump to conclusions". Imagine my horror, when the penny began to drop that it was not basque terrorism but islamic terrorism, after battling with imc collectives worldwide, and then a muslim is killed in the very town i work in. I admit I was one of those who in the aftermath, was affected without real reason to be a victim. But as the King said one year later speaking on the "alliance of civilisation" -" remember the victims. we are all victims ". I may not reiterate enough that once you have experience terror, you know what being terrorised means. But proximity to the Dublin bombings of the 1970s, and later bombings in London, and then catching the train before a bombed metro in Paris, had not prepared me for the terror and division which M11 meant.
one of the editorial collective of this site indymedia ireland has asked me to leave this "behind the scenes" exchange on the editorial list (everyone can join and thus find one way of becoming more involved in local or global indymedia http://indymedia.ie/getting_involved )
:- "A terrorised country united behind a banner "for the constitution and no to terror a terrorised country divided behind the banner as well." Learn from that. if dublin or belfast or shannon ever goes boom don't go rushing to place blame before the victims are mourned and buried. Learn that Terrorism and especially imitative terrorism we are all victims.
I can not explain how much Spain and all who live here were divided. We may argue till doomsday whether the opinion polls which put the PSOE marginally ahead in the last week were accurate.
The PP certainly believed and believe they are the "natural party of government". But that either side play politics with what occured is .:. an intolerable wrong yet another which cries out to be corrected .:. I for my tiny part, suspended my cyber campaign against Rajoy and Aznar on March 11. http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/75394 When I joined with others to blockade the offices of the PP, it was not election politics, it was decency. It was truth. I would have done the same had the PSOE lied in that way.
Accordingly the leadership of the PP who lost the general election on March 14th 2004, and have since blamed that loss on the bombing, rather than on their blatent lies and disinformation, have yet again challanged the official version. http://www.elpais.es/articulo/elpporesp/20060312elpepin.../11-M

The horizontal media relationship we behind imc always harp on about worked the weekend of M11 to M14 2004. and indeed the mobile networks worked too, till to stop rumours of revenge slaughters throughout the state, "somone" made the decision to turn them off. It was the first time that the CNI the secret service of Spain came out of the shadows and told everyone in media, the government was lying. They have of course, gone back into the spooky shadows since. But no matter what else they do or did , I salute them for that one act. Spain proved an example to follow. Not only the Spanish, but her migrants. Her friends.

thus, I'll quote La Vanguardia Barcelona's commercial newspaper "of record" who have more times than I may count up my nose and the nostrils of my assembly. But today we all write our thanks and respect together. Almost every newspaper of decency has offered thanks and enduring respect to a woman who still mourns her son who was going to work, and now lives in hiding under death threats Des de les pàgines de La Vanguardia voldria donar-li les gràcies a Pilar Manjón, presidenta de l´Asociación 11-M Afectados por el Terrorismo, per mostrar (a través de l´entrevista de Núria Escur a la contra, 6/ III/ 2006) l´altra manera - rara, subtil, delicada, que no vol dir inconsistent- de fer les coses. Essent així: Gracias, señora Manjón, por alumbrar con su dignidad un trecho de la inhóspita vida pública de estos días. Un abrazo a todos y cada uno de los miembros de la asociación.

= From the pages of La V we wish to give you thanks Pilar Manjon, president of the association of those affected by terrorism on the 11th of March, to show (through the interview with Nuria Escur "la contra" 6/3/2006 your unique way, rare, subtle, delicate which doesn't not mean inconsistent, of doingthings. Essentially Thank you Señora Manjón. for illuminating with your dignity a stretch of inhospitable public life in these days. A hug from one and all of the members of the association.

I
couldn't say it better myself.
In fact wrote as much already & will do again.
We the citizens demanded she speak to the commission,
and when she did, she condemned those politicians.
She's a leader. one I can accept. she leads by example.
Note & Learn she will never sit in any parliament or congress.
Just ask us all to ponder the tree and forest which is the remembrance of her absent son
and the 200 others who joined him in absence.

Pilar Manjon leads the tribute at the forest of the absent 2 years later. for her son. for them all. Yet some still want her dead.
Pilar Manjon leads the tribute at the forest of the absent 2 years later. for her son. for them all. Yet some still want her dead.

Related Link: http://indymedia.ie/article/67956
author by ipsipublication date Domh Márta 12, 2006 22:17Report this post to the editors

I feel disappointed at the © applied since yesterday on many front page comercial newspaper photos, which have now escaped syndication for the capitalists, and horizontal communication for us.

What is left is photos of Pilar Manjon the dignified (read last comment & http://indymedia.ie/article/67956 ) standing next to the those charged with the highest institutions of state. I needed mostly to goto Latin American sites to find images which are "less official" of the Forest of the Absent at noon yesterday. One of the reasons she is so dignified is the fact that no-one ought miss, that she knows & reminds us the victims were not poor. The politics of their murder doesn't go beyond that. They were workers. "bottom of the heap".
a quarter were unregularised immigrants to Europe, they didn't get paid much then. It hasn't really changed much either. They weren't institutions of state. They were on trains from the suburbs, thursday morning march 11th. thats all they were. Not working in the biggest most emblematic towers of world empire. They didn't have the advantage of pre-planned complete emergency system care. They weren't saved from death in London 16 months later. They just died. And She has never betrayed their class.

"You sirs have talked only about yourselves and not of us..."
"from the 11th to the 14th we awaited our dead".
"on the 14th I voted I still hadn't received his [her son's] corpse"
Pilar Manjón to the inquiry into M11. no-one ever spoke to an inquiry into July 7.
Because there wasn't one. Thats the british way.


I'd also like to mention (thank you for the space you all suffer me) that the commercial media in both Spain and beyond, still play number games. 198 dead for some. 206 for the first pre-analysis of remains count. 192 for others who will not include the suicide bombers in the death toll. 191 for yet more who still argue the intention of one other. 200 for me, who counts the 2 innocent murdered others for reprisal in the following days. You can't put numbers on terror.
1 goes to 10, turns 11 and keeps running. I call that soft math C/f http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70137&con...15912

I still believe that the reaction of the people in Spain was a healthier macro-collecitve response than that seen 16 months later in London to the arrival of the terrorists as I noted on 6/7/05 http://www.indymedia.ie/article/70614?&condense_comment...13718 . Yet that much said & highlighted by hindsight, two more were added to the death list in Spain ; but "honestly" so. In the UK only one Brazilian was added to the carnage, and we are yet to see disclosure of anything from 7/7/05 to 23/7/05 as the very least of "the cobra comitee's" scope of public interest's enquiry.

they are family of the absent
they are family of the absent

thats a train just like the last one
thats a train just like the last one

for some reason people light candles.
for some reason people light candles.

the younger man held the banner 2 years ago. sandwiching Aznar with Chirac. none of them goto work by train.
the younger man held the banner 2 years ago. sandwiching Aznar with Chirac. none of them goto work by train.

its how people goto work from the outskirts. they were workers. they're absent
its how people goto work from the outskirts. they were workers. they're absent

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