SF Back Coke Boycott?

by poet Mon Dec 08, 2003 13:30

it's not exactly relevant to the continuing debate about the posters and the SP but anyway:


There once was a man called an t-Uachtaráin,
who lived in Áras an Uachtaráin,
He was fond of his nookie,
he had a go at the cookie,
And there is the couch that he f-uchtaráin.

it was written by Flann O'Brien the myles na gcopoleen in the 1940s about President Hyde.
timeless.

by Jonah Mon Dec 08, 2003 13:41

Not sure what the first comment had to do with anything. A little touch of the surreal for Monday afternoon.

For what it's worth, the Ard Comhairle of Sinn Féin did meet last week and did discuss the boycott campaign of Coca Cola. Motions on the matter were proposed and discussed. Following the debate the party's Ard Comhairle voted to support the boycott.

Thus, from a position of not having policy on the boycott one way or another, the party has adopted a policy of supporting the boycott of Coca Cola called for by Colombian Trade Unionists.

Sin é.

by surrealist Mon Dec 08, 2003 13:48

:-) sorry if the Douglas Hyde monica lewinsky scandal of the 1940s sort of threw ye.

by cabhog Mon Dec 08, 2003 14:09

since the shinners now support the boycott, we they return all the monies they received from Coca-Cola through the years, and explain why they accepted those monies, considering these allegations against Coke aren't new?

I am holding my breathe on this one

by Jonah Mon Dec 08, 2003 14:15

'I am holding my breathe on this one'

Delighted to hear it. Eventually, lack of oxygen will render you unconcious, perhaps dead, and the pointless and ridiculous questions will end.

by hopeful Mon Dec 08, 2003 14:31

moronic comments such as those show a pathetic understanding of politics. This move by Sinn Fein is very important, and should be supported. This campaign is growing, and the anxiety shown by Coke clearly demonstrates this. Look forward not backward.
Have the Green's addressed this issue?

by cabhog Mon Dec 08, 2003 15:17

exactly how is the hope that Sinn fein will give back the monies given to them by Coke moronic?

Surely, if they believe in the issue, they will be willing to refund the money to Coke, after all it is moneymade on the back of trade union intimidition?

SF are the wealthiest political party bar none on this island, because they have no scruples when it comes to acceptin money - even if its money from Killer Coke

by christine lucas Mon Dec 08, 2003 15:42 kennedyway at hotmail dot com

what do sinnfein do with their money? Ask them if you don't know, they will be happy to inform you,they are very approachable, then come back on this demythed. Why is there no mention of mecca cola? here in belfast several establishments now sell it as an alternative to cocacola, it is about time people picked up on a wide scale in boycotting cocacola, their crimes as a company are not new they must be held accountable, you do not have to agree with every shade of political opinion within that boycott, it must be massive to be effective cocacola can be effectively damaged, remember macdonalds and the high media coverage of the court case? boycotts on south african goods helped topple apartheid? now get to work on cocacola if you want to force necessary change in this world

by insider Mon Dec 08, 2003 15:46

They pay the IRA with it. Of course now the IRA are working in SF doing SFA.

by Jonah Mon Dec 08, 2003 15:52

Sadly, you have not given up, clearly you persist in proving to the satisfaction of all concerned that your descent into idiocy is rapid and uncontestable.

Firstly, Sinn Féin is not the wealthiest party in Ireland. While you are clearly happy to accept in sheep like innocence whatever muck appears in the newspapers, as any look at election spending receipts shows, Sinn Féin's spend in the last General Election for example, was the fourth biggest in the 26 Counties. Kind of expected when it got the fourth biggest share of the vote. These figures are available courtesy of the Elecotral Commission.

One suggests you read and think before posting whatever slap happy doggerel you think merits discussion amongst people interested in politics. I do not rely on the Sunday Independent for my information, I do not see why I should respect cretins who do so.

Across Ireland, Sinn Féin is the third largest political party, behind Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. Our spend is significantly behind either of them. The truth is the party's success are not products of rich backers, but hard work, good politics and committed determined activists. And not all the whiney wishful thinking by extremeist organisations on the Irish left make that any different. We're not more successful than you because we're the 'richest party in Western Europe' as the SDLP once claimed, we're more successful than you because we're better. Live with it. I manage to do so quite successfully :)

Since Sinn Féin received no money from Coca Cola, but did receive money from Friends of Sinn Féin which included money they received from Coca Cola, I suggest you contact FOSF and ask them to send the boys and girls in Atlanta a cheque.

Personally, I admire a party willing to get money from American capitalists and then turn around and tell people not to buy their product. Capitalism has fucked people for years, is it really so bad to fuck it back?

Next week, Friends of Sinn Fein receive a $100,000 donation from Microsoft and Gerry Adams calls on the Irish people to use Linux.

by Snare Eire Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:10

No input by SF in the Boycott Coca Cola campaign for months, then suddenly the Supreme Soviet backs it. Of course this has nothing to do with the ferocious bollocking they are getting for Anne Speeds role in the whole debacle. They had to do something to let the chuckie-puppies off the hook on campus.

Now how about we see some action instead of words in the next round. And any chance of publically dissassociating SF from Anne Speed's anti-boycott stance.

By the way still no word of poor Justin Moran since he wrote that leftie piece in An Phoblacht a few months back. I think they've locked him into a room in Leinster House with nothing but a complete set of the works of Gerry Adams and a new work by S. Ticky called 'How to sell out, fool the poor gimps into thinking its all still about revolution, become the darlings of the liberal left and get away with it all' . Free Justin Moran!

by Justin Moran - Sinn Féin Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:29 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Oh the thrill of being mentioned on Indymedia. Be still my beating heart.

The reason I haven't posted to Indymedia, though I do occasionally still read it, is because the standard of informed political debate on it is pathetic. I made this clear when I made my last post several months back.

While there are some good news stories on the Newswire and some excellent photography, there is no discussion worth talking about, nothing that can stay above sectarian backbiting for more than a few minutes. There are some exceptions to this, and some very good contributors (Though even they seem to have been posting less recently), but the majority of comments posted are either of shocking poor quality, or, even though I agree with his arguments, filled with unnecessary personal and political abuse such as Jonah's.

And while I welcome the decision of the party to take the stance it did, noting again that Anne Speed at no point broke party policy, to even begin to have the arrogance to suggest it was because of pressure from who, the SP? The SWP? is nothing but a breathtaking exposure of your own delusions of grandeur. If most of the people in leadership positions in Sinn Féin were even aware of your existence they would find it amusing.

Those people interested in actual political discussion, I find www.politics.ie far better. The standard of debate is higher, there is more respect and tolerance for other people's views and it can be educational, whereas typically debates on Indymedia are merely mindless, depressing and futile.

In closing, this is not an attack on Indymedia, or the editorial team, nor on those who use it productively as a channel for informed political debate and exchange of information and ideas. It is merely pointing out that the vast majority of postings, and almost every debate, is worth neither the time reading, nor especially the time getting involved.

by an imc editor Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:42

Nice to know you're still lurking. We do miss you - especially since for a while you were the exception to the increasingly semi-detached attitude of SF to the left of labour left. I do think it is a little disingenuous of you to suggest that the whole ucd debacle had nothing to do with SF adopting a stance on the Coke thing I've never 'used' politics.ie but having had a very brief look I note that from the level of activity in the forums it has a tiny user base compared to here. I somehow doubt that imc users go there too - so who in your opinion is using it?

by Justin Moran - Sinn Féin Mon Dec 08, 2003 18:33 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

I think there are a lot of lurkers actually, no idea on figures but I know a good few people, in and out of SF who look at Indymedia but wouldn't dream of getting involved in it by posting.

I'm not sure I accept that SF is semi-detached from the left of Labour left, being as it is the largest party in Ireland that fits into that definition.

I do accept that the party has a culture of distrust towards other parties in the left of Labour area and frankly, I'm not sure all of the responsibility for that rests on us. Sinn Féin is repeatedly targetted by smaller groups for abuse and assaults, often through deliberate misrepresentation. Some of it is deserved, justifiable criticism from comrades outside Sinn Féin and something I've never had a problem with and hope I gave that impression when on Indymedia, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

I would also make the point that SF is not the only such party. The SP, SWP, WSM etc. regularly come in for targetted, often factually incorrect abuse. Every week it seems the bile is directed at a new victim and frankly, it numbs the mind for its tediousness.

The left in Ireland spends more time abusing each other, than focusing on what unites us. Rarely do you see a report on a demo or protest without a quick dig like : 'Notice no-one was there from *insert name here* clearly they've sold out or deprioritised.' etc. It's a culture of bizarre one upmanship, of constant references to perceived betrayls and an over inflated sense of its own importance that is surreal to read.

To take the UCD matter for example. Anne Speed is a Union rep, and a comrade I am proud to know. She took a stance on the matter in line with her Union's policy that did not contravene SF policy. As she is supposed to as a representative of workers. I did not agree with the position but respected her viewpoint. I am bewildered at the level of abuse she received. She took the position she did not as a member of SF, but as a SIPTU rep. I am a member of Sinn Féin but not every single thing I do is an expression of Sinn Féin policy. When I support Galway football over Meath this is not an expression of SF policy. When I support the pro-choice movement, it is not me expressing SF policy.

As for politics.ie, I agree it has a smaller user base, and the amount of material posted to it is less than indymedia, but while the quantity is less I think the quality of political debate is better, which is lets face it, is not particularly difficult.

There is also a wider representation of political forces with people from conservative political parties engaging in debate of the sort they are simply not allowed to do so here. I don't like PDs and I loathe their politics, but I find debating with them more challenging and interesting than arguing for the 473rd time over Bin Charges and who did what or whether the SP and SWP can form an electoral front.

The smaller base means as well for people like me who don't have a lot of time, that you're not responding to an issue long dead whereas on Indymedia you could go away for a couple of hours and if the sectarian bile is particularly fresh that day, come back to 30 or 40 comments.

As I stated, this is not an attack on Indymedia (All for it, great idea, alternative media etc.) nor an attack on the Editorial team (Thumbs up) nor even relating to the abuse of SF exactly, but to annoyance at the level of sectarian infighting and the shockingly poor standard of debate.

I still check in for reports on demos and marches and for the excellent photographs and images from protests I cannot attend. Some of the international news is good. I just can't be bothered getting into the debates any more, this being an exception when I saw my name come up.

by nitnit Mon Dec 08, 2003 18:43

They returned 100 million bottle and got refunds. This shows they are in league with Colombian Death Squads and are working for Dubya to secure his re-election.

by UCD student Mon Dec 08, 2003 23:46

"She took a stance on the matter in line with her Union's policy that did not contravene SF policy"

It is NOT SIPTU policy to oppose the boycott. SIPTU do not have a position. The SIPTU education branch in UCD released a statement supporting the boycott as have many other branches.

by Janus Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:14

Yes but it was the policy of Speed's branch. Surely that's the point?

by UCD student Tue Dec 09, 2003 16:12

It was not the position of her branch. In any case she should have used all the weight of her position to argue for a pro Byocott stance. She did not do this, instead she pandered to reaction and sold out to managment. She should have argued that if any jobs are lost it is because of Coke managment's persuit of profits not because of any boycott or trade union rights in Colombia.

The thing is that Speed went with her instincts on this issue in the absence of a line from SF HQ. Being a nationalist and republican she teamed up with the Irish capitalist to 'protect' Irish jobs.

by Jim Monaghan Tue Dec 09, 2003 16:24

I am happy Sinn Fein is supporting the boycott. It is a very large organisation so this is an important step.
For once let uis all just welcome this step and leave other critisisms for another day.

by UCD Student Tue Dec 09, 2003 16:28

SF's step to back the boycott is undoubtedly welcomed.

This does not makeSF immune from critisism on this or any other issue. SF took a position of supporting Coke in the only referendum that has taken place yet. SF still have to earn their respect on this issue

by Republican Tue Dec 09, 2003 16:46

Some UCD Students support the right of the residents of the Garvaghy Road to live in peace. The UCDSY believe the Orange Order have the right to march over taig bodies which have been first beaten bloody by their Worker In Uniform friends in the PSNI/RUC.

They are in no position to attack SF.

by SP member Tue Dec 09, 2003 16:51

That is not the position of SP/SY. The SP believe in negotiations between the residents and the OO. No Talk, no walk. This position is also taken by the vast majoirty of residents groups.

by Janus Tue Dec 09, 2003 16:58

Look, can we stop the misrepresentation please? It's ridiculous. Jim Monaghan and Justin Moran are absolutely right on this one.

There is no evidence that SF backed Coca-Cola in the boycott. No such position was taken and to claim it was makes you a liar. A SIPTU official, acting in accordance with the wishes of the members of her branch (Unless you can prove otherwise. The Food & Drink Branch put out a statement against it. Education Branch put out a statement for it. You automatically assume the Education Branch motion had the support of workers and the other Branch not because it suits you.)

Sinn Féin did not, and I am unsurprised at their irritation with having to repeat the blinding obvious, support Coke. They had no stance on the issue. A SIPTU official who happens to be a member took a stance in line with the wishes of the people she represents. You stated as much in an earlier post when you referred to the 'abscence of a line'. So at 3.12pm you said SF had no position on the matter, at 3.28 you have changed your mind and said they do have a position and it happens to be the one you would prefer them to have.

Other SF members in and out of UCD supported the boycott campaign.

And frankly, Sinn Fein don't need to earn your respect, the respect of someone who lies, misrepresents and pretends to welcome the party's decision when in fact you wish it had gone the other way to confirm your ill thought out political prejudices.

Do you seriously think that SF gives two shites whether it is respected by the SP or the SWP? They have never claimed to be immune from criticism on this issue and other SF people have posted saying they disagree with her position. The kind of open debate sadly lacking in the extremeist left.

by Republican Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:00

The SP/SY do not have the same position as the residents. They have never said that in the abscence of agreement that the Marchs should not go ahead. At one of the Garvaghy Road Sieges Joe Higgins visited the Garvaghy Road. He then went and visited the Orangemen who were attacking and abusing the residents. He made no differentiation between the Orange Bigots and people who only want to live in peace.

by left Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:02

Sinn Fein's record speaks for itself.

Cllr Mark Day pays his bin tax and urges others to do likewise. He has not been disciplined for this position and will be standing forSF in the elections in June

SF in Sligo voted for bin tax

SF in Dublin City conspired with Labour, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil to have 2 of their councillors mysteriously go missing on the crucial bin tax vote last year.

SF have been absent from bin truck blockades. Most SF members have not been involved in anti bin tax work whatsoever and those that have such as Dessie Ellis have been highly conservative by arguing against blockades at all times.

In UCD SF took a 'neutral' stance while Ann Speed campainged alongside Coke managment against the boycott

SF in Enniskillen and their ex minister of Health de Bruin support the Hayes report which promised to shut down Omagh hospital. Pat Doherty oppurtunistically came out against Hayes. His cynicism was rewarded by being beaten by Kieran Deeny.

SF support social partnership in the trade unions.

SF had a dodgy position on the war in Iraq. They refused torule out support for the war if it had UN backing.

Martin McGuiness when a minister of education supported PFI/PPP in schools. He aslo attacked the working conditions of Term time workers by forcing them on the dole for the summer months.

I could go on and on....

by SP member Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:06

If you want to see our real position on sectarian marches visit our site and read our literature. You seem to be deliberatly misrepresenting the SP's position.

SP believe that the OO are a sectarian right wing reactionary organisation. The residents also have the right to live free from sectarian intimidation.

by SF watcher Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:08

Sinn Fein are fundamentally no different to FF or FG. They are economically and socially right wing. They support cuts and attacks on workers. Look at their role in the bin tax and the trade unions for example. Whatever the case is with Speed, it reamins fact that at best she is in the right wing of her union.

by Cllr. Mark Daly Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:17

what are SF going to do about Mark Daly, he pays his bin tax urges other to do the same and expects to stand as a SF 'anti bin tax ' candidate.

Why has he not been disciplined, kicked out of SF or deselected as a candidate?

What is SF's real position on the bin tax and taxation justice?


... He hasn't gone away you know

by SP Watch Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:19

SP support the Orange Orders right to march through Catholic Areas

SP sabotaged direct action at Shannon.

SP supported the cops at Shannon.

SP supported the cops at Evian.

SP supported a British Army Recruiting Stall in QUB.

Why dont you SP lot cop on? Its easy to throw lists of accusations.

by tahoma Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:34

SP support the Orange Orders right to march through Catholic Areas
- No sectarian march should go ahead without negotiations with residents. This is the same position taken by a vast majority of residents groups.

SP sabotaged direct action at Shannon.
-Not true, SP were in Shannon on sat, SF were not.

SP supported the cops at Shannon.
- So that's why they were beaten up and man handled by cops last saturday? Where were SF last saturday?

SP supported the cops at Evian.
- Not true, another lie. SF were not even in Evian.

SP supported a British Army Recruiting Stall in QUB
- Not ture, at best an urban myth.

Its easy to throw lists of accusations.
- Yes, but at least the ones about SF and the bin tax and the role of Sf ministers is documented FACT.

The SP's position on the state is quite clear. The capitalist state and its apparatus is there to protect capitalism and the interests of a tiny minority. They are not a neutral referee in society. The SP do not support the state and have been attacked by the state on many occasions. More recently look at the bin tax. It was SP members and others who were targetted, dragged in front of the courts and sent to prison, hardly the actions of a party that supports the cops and the state.

by SP watcher Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:38

"It was SP members and others who were targetted, dragged in front of the courts and sent to prison, hardly the actions of a party that supports the cops and the state."

Not, all the members though. Mr. Corpo man - where do I sign?

by clarification Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:41

Helen Redwood is author of this book
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/liberation/intro.htm

She has also played a key role in the bin tax struggle in her area. If any of ye were actually active outside of your virtual worlds you would know this.

by he is still here Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:42

MARK DALY SUPPORTS THE BIN TAX
HE IS A SINN FÉIN COUNCILLOR, HE STILL WILL BE STANDING AS A SF CANDIDATE NEXT JUNE.

by SP watcher Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:44

Boyd and McLaughlin the rear guard revolutionaries.

by Joanne O'Flynn - none Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:46

The more and more SF reply the more and more they are getting shown up on the issues. A bit of advice lads give it up.

by trotwatch Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:49

The republican movement is answerable to its support base - that's at least 15% of the electorate north and south - and not to any unrepresentative sects who have to resort to lies to promote themselves.

by IRA/SF=murderers Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:54

SF and the IRA have the blood of innocent civilians on their hands. Do people remember Warrington? Well I do, the IRA planted a bomb in a bin on a main street of a Lancashire town and killed two innocent childern who were out shopping. SF supported this action. There are countless more examples of these murderous acts which Sinn Fein to this day still support. Fuck bin tax, fuck the SF cllr, just remember that SF support these acts.

by SP watcher Tue Dec 09, 2003 17:58

Has Barbour still got his sash on?

by SF/IRA=murderers Tue Dec 09, 2003 18:02

Fuck SF with their nationalist dogma. Who cares about the bin tax, the SP, Marches, coke boycotts. SF have the blood of innocent civilians on their hands. To this day SF do not condemn the murderous actions of the IRA.

by Interested Tue Dec 09, 2003 18:08

Have the SP condemned the actions of Lenin or Trotsky much lately?

by SF/IRA=murderers Tue Dec 09, 2003 18:14

This is what Sinn Féin still support to this day. Lets not glorify SF. I say again who cares about bin tax, coke, the SP, SF are apologists for murder. SF STILL REFUSE TO CONDEMN THESE KILLINGS OF INNOCENT PROTESTANT WORKERS

A brief news report from the time

Ten workers were murdered by the South Armagh Republican Action Force (SARAF), a covername for the IRA in an attack on their minibus at Kingsmills, near Bessbrook, County Armagh. The men were taking their usual route home from a textile factory in Glenanne when their bus was stopped by a bogus security checkpoint . The gunmen asked each on board their religion. The driver of the mini bus who was a Roman Catholic was told "to get out of the way" and to "run up the road."

The remaining workmen were lined up and shot with at least four different weapons, some of which were automatic.

The "Kings Mill Massacre" victims were:-

Joseph Lemmon 46yrs old married, 3 children
Reginald Chapman 25yrs married 2 children
Walter Chapman 23yrs single
Kenneth Worton 24yrs married 2 children
James McWhirter 58yrs married 3 children
Robert Chambers 19yrs single
John McConville 20yrs single
John Bryans 46yrs widower 2 children were left orphans
Robert Freeburn 50yrs married 2 children
Robert Walker 46 yrs

by SF/IRA=murderers Tue Dec 09, 2003 18:23

Sinn Féin to this day still refuse to comdemn the Tullyvannen massacre. On the 11th September 1975 the IRA burst into a meeting of a Protestant temporance group and murdered 5 innocent people just because they were Protestant. They were,
William McKee farmer, 70 yrs married with five children
James McKee farmer, 40 yrs.
Nevin McConnell livestock market manager, 40 yrs.
John Johnson retired farmer 80 yrs
William Herron died two days after the IRA attack.

Below is a short report of the murders

At 10pm two IRA gunmen wearing masks burst open the door carrying machine guns. They sprayed the inside of the hall with bullets as they tried to murder every man in the building. Soon the IRA attackers fled shooting through the windows as they retreated. An ambulance was called immediately to tend to the many wounded and the dead.

This is what Sinn Fein and the IRA is all about.

by SF/IRA=murderers Tue Dec 09, 2003 18:25

Will someone from SF come on here now and justify these murders? Why do you not condemn them now?

by cynical observer Tue Dec 09, 2003 18:32

Funny to see how SF have gone very quiet now. When they had their horns locked with the SPthey were posting every couple of minutes. Now nothing, I wonder why??

by Janus Tue Dec 09, 2003 18:53

I don't think there are any of them about actually. The only two people who posted to this thread who openly described themselves as members of Sinn Fein were Jonah and Justin Moran.

Both made it pretty clear they were sick and tired of dealing with arguments they had dealt with before and I got the impression that Comrade Moran will not be back any time soon.

In my time on Indymedia I have seen every single charge against SF and against the SP on this thread made before, and generally, confronted the first time it's made. Some of the charges exposed as lies, some admitted to be accurate and in one or two cases, good debates took place.

Perhaps Shinners and SP activists have better things to be doing that going over the same old debates. A quick flick through the usual charge sheets provided by sad people with little time on their hands shows that remarkably, the same old lies appear.

Oh don't get me wrong or take the quotes out of context, as you will, the SP and SF deserve criticism on past actions, but I think it's just about possible to criticise both of them without making things up.

And from a non-party member like me, a lot more interesting. Instead, the usual mindless mudslinging by people trolling for a fight because they have too much time on their hands.

Is it any wonder some contributors can't be bothered posting anymore?

by inextricably linked Wed Dec 10, 2003 15:55

A lot of confusion I read here earlier has been removed, good. Now I am worried about SF/ IRA=murderers, and those bitter postings from that individual, we have all got our murdered dead, our attrocities, the dead are equal yours and mine, they are all gone and every death, brings pain and hurt no amount of bitterness or hate or blame or revenge will bring them back, look instead at why they died, what lead to their deaths,look at those responsible, why they did it and what those same people are doing now, what direction they are going, in the words of a man of some sense " the war is over, lets win the peace" You do realise, if you are from the relevant part of this island, or infact any part of it ,that we are going to have to live together as equals, are you ready for that?

by Old Hand Wed Dec 10, 2003 16:59

I wonder would the attacks on the shinners today, including impersonations of their members, have anything to to with the publication of the Barron Report? Or is it just a 'happy coincidence'?