Labour calls for 50 per cent more Dail sittings

by RED BHOY Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:17

Why doesn't the labour leader change the name of their party as they are a disgrace to the Labour party of old. Why not make it mandatory to vote with fines being imposed for non-voters!! Low turnouts are a problem!

by Degenerate Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:20

To help pass capitalist friendly legislation.

by Jonah Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:31

Now 50% extra pointless.

by Niall ÓB - Greens Thu Oct 30, 2003 18:45

...it's a pity that Labour let Bertie off the hook by agreeing that he could miss Taoiseachs question time on Thursdays, in return for being allowed to speak ahead of the technical group.

by Killian Forde Thu Oct 30, 2003 20:46

Sinn Féin Dáil whip Aengus Ó Snodaigh has accused the Labour party of hypocrisy in their new Dáil reform proposals. Accusing the Labour party of putting 'pride before principle' and indulging in 'a backroom deal with Fianna Fáil to let Bertie Ahern out of the Dáil' Deputy Ó Snodaigh said:

"I listened with disbelief to the leader of the Labour party today complaining that the Taoiseach is not available often enough in the Dáil to answer questions as if they had nothing to do with his absence. The truth is that the Labour party indulged in a shameful backroom deal with Fianna Fáil after the election to let Bertie Ahern out of the Dáil on Thursdays.

"Unable to face being behind the newly formed Technical Group, which includes Sinn Féin, in the speaking order, the Labour party put petty concerns about who got to speak first over the need to hold Government accountable. In exchange for changes to the speaking order, the Labour party was happy enough to let Bertie Ahern off the hook. Pride came before principle.

"To condemn this now is an act of hypocrisy. The fact of the matter is that Labour were bought by Fianna Fáil very cheaply and no amount of spin and calls for Dáil reform will reverse that."

by Robert Spring - Labour Yewt Thu Oct 30, 2003 22:11

That's what Lenin said about this sort of **ite.

Keep TDs down the country, I say, attending funerals and pestering the county manager about pot-holes. I know I'm only a yewt, but I can't remember anything good ever coming out of deliberations in the Dail. If this is the best that Rabbitte can come up with he should *rig off and *esign or *etire or something.

by Bernard Fri Oct 31, 2003 02:08

Legislation. Like the excellent Bin Tax which will help the environment. You don't want to pay it, recycle!

by knowhow Fri Oct 31, 2003 03:37

OK, Bernard, just tell me where you live and I will recycle my waste into your garden.

by mattt Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:21

That's what Lenin called ultra-leftism, including the refusal to contest elections and take parliamentary seats.

by Magneto - LP Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:16

Left Bertie off the hook by supporting Bin Charges. I do not think that Labour has done enough to oppose these unfair charges but at least they oppose them. Labour in Government will abolish the Bin Tax, the Green Party in Government will ensure that you pay higher charges.

If the Green Party have their way we will all end up paying for other local services such as water. Maybe they want to charge into Council parks as well. Then the Greenery would only be for the Middle and Upper Class supporters of the Green Party.

by ipsiphi & iosaf - ¿oh how do I get my smugness down the phoneline? Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:30

but didn't Lenin prohibit non Bolsheviks from taking seats and taking part in elections?

& I'd love the "chapter & verse" source for "Lenin said that was ultra-leftist".

Being a recalcitrant little Chomsky helper (I still am) I have happened to notice that the collocation prefixes "ultra-" have only been in use for two generations. Lenin had gone green and oozed by the time the Frankfurt School Marxists had to deal with the implications of "ultra-" and you know? they didn't even bother!
On the European mainland, if one sees "ultra-" it is invariably prefixing "right", and is used to describe parliamentary political groupings in Italy, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Faroes, Switzerland, Serbia.
Spain has a lot of "micro-ultra-right" groupings though none have parliamentary representation, the more traditional "neo-reconstructed-fascist" political groupings doing quite well as it is.

by D11er Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:41

"Labour in Government will abolish the Bin Tax."

Nonsense. Rabbitte supports them. He "accepts the logic of them"

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
In Finglas not one Labour rep and this includes a councillor, a TD and an MEP from the area said anything about the imprisonment of nine people for fighting against this unjust tax.

On your non de plume I enjoyed this.
"Of course Magneto saw mutants as the superior race. It is his view that mutants should unite and forcibly wrest control of the Earth. Magento has created groups such as The Brotherhood Of Evil Mutants to bring about this end."

And there is no doubting that Rabbitte, Quinn, Lacey and Howlin are a fine example of a Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.
You are certainly at home.

by Magneto Fri Oct 31, 2003 13:47

Just start with the traditional manic cackle of the Brotherhood of Evil. It is Labour Party policy to get rid of the present Bin Tax system. What Labour favours is below. I dont think it goes far enough but unlike the Green Party, Labour opposes a Flat Rate Bin Tax.



"The levels of charges should be banded, to reflect ability to pay. The present charging system is unfair to low-income families.

Increases in charges should be capped and be limited to the Consumer Price Index. It is clear that the Minister intends that the charge should be increased.

The power to make charges should be restored to the elected members of local authorities. It was undemocratic to give these powers to unelected County Managers and unnecessary anyway, since every local authority with whatever difficulties managed to adopt a charge.

A National Waiver Scheme should be introduced which would apply to both private and public collection services. At present there is no waiver scheme at all for private collections."

by let's be clear Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:00

You oppose a flat rate tax but not the principle of double taxation. You support bin ta but just oppose the way it is imposed. No backbone.

Why has not one of the many Labour cllrs, MEPs or TDs come out in active support of those who were jailed for opposing the bin tax? Why has Labour not supported the mass campaign of non payment?

The Labour Party are seen to be sell outs on this issue and are really the same as FF/FG/PD.

by Niall ÓB - Greens Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:24

The Greens favour a pay by weight system or a pay by volume system for waste.
We do not accept the principle that any individual or organisation is entitled to dispose of as much waste as they like without paying for it.
We do however favour a waiver system for low-income households.
Unlike others we do accept the principle that those who dispose of little or no waste should pay nothing.

Flat rate means that everyone pays the same charge regardless of how much waste they produce or how much they earn.

by Magneto Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:49

Under the Green Party bin tax system, a bin worker would pay the same amount per kilo as Millionaire Green Party TD Ciaran Cuffe. Thats the Green Party idea of justice and equality. They also want to bring back Water Charges. Their Water Charges will again be a Flat Rate Tax. John Gormley, GP TD and (non union)Language School owner, will pay the same Water Tax per litre as a bar worker.

by real green Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:52

DO the Green Party say that a large low income family should have to pay more for their bin tax that a multi millionaire?

Do the Green not accept that it is not householders that are producers of waste. We only recieve it. The real producers of domestic waste are the packaging companies who push this excess packaging on us.

Surely it is big business that should be paying more tax. Currently the PAYE worker has to pay 85% of taxes in this country. This is when 59% of wealth in the country goes to business and not PAYE workers.

by pat c Fri Oct 31, 2003 14:53

Yes Niall is like HD because Humpty used to make words mean what he wanted them to mean. So to Niall, a Flat Rate Charge based on weight Regardless of Income is not a Flat Rate Tax.

And why not?

Because Niall says its not!

by Very Anonymous Fri Oct 31, 2003 15:01

...although the Greens have consistently claimed they don't support a Flat Rate waste charge they have voted for one on Dublin City Council?

Where the Greens stand on waste charges is not the core problem for the Greens vis-a-vis the bin tax campaign. Any conception of the Green Party as a potentially radical party that might "break the mould" of Irish politics has been seriously tarnished by their inability to recognise how the state deals with working class communities who decide to fight state policy. While the Greens have a nuanced arguement, that has some small merit, by their silence on how the state has attacked the bin-tax campaign they have implicitly aligned themselves with Martin Cullen etc and with government policy as it is. From a propaganda point of view the Greens have made a complete balls of the Bin Tax campaign and have been painted as just another political party by other other political organisations who, presumably, hope to gain electorally from the campaign ie the SP. That perception will stick in many working class areas in Dublin

Greens cannot afford to allow themselves the comfort of thinking that the middle classes are their natural electoral constituency. They have alienated those thinking working class voters in Dublin who will constitute the core of next year'e electorate - and whose votes they desperately need to gain more council seats in Dublin. They will be lucky, I think, to make any inroads next year on the various Local Authority elections in Dublin.

by Janus Fri Oct 31, 2003 16:09

Not sure I agree about the Greens alienating working class voters as it suggest working class voters were leaning towards them and frankly, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of this.

The Greens are for middle class do gooder alternative types. Nothing wrong with that of course, but it's not the kind of company that working class people or hardened class warriors find comfortable.

They were never really looking for working class votes. They have neither the organisation to get them, nor the stomach for the fight with SF, and in Dublin SP, to get their support.

I do think they will find themselves making it hard to make gains come the Locals as Labour are going to be pushing to win back the votes they have lost to the Greens and they've stagnated as a party since the General Election. On the other hand, the Shinners and the SP have both clearly made gains since the election.

by Degenerate Fri Oct 31, 2003 17:36

Time for another one of your evil laughs.

The Murdering Capitalist Tony Blair has been announced as the vice-president of the Socialist International.
I bet LPI are trying to change that from within as well.

by a Sun Nov 02, 2003 03:04

I knew the GP supportrd the bin tax bit shocked that LP do. Have to think again.

by Magneto Sun Nov 02, 2003 19:18

As you should know I oppose the warmonger Blair, the Sandinistas tried to prevent Blairs re-election as VP but unfortunately failed.

by bossesparty Mon Nov 03, 2003 15:45

Magneto you do not oppose the warmonger Blair. YOu are a member of the Irish Labour Party that is in a cosy coalition on the European Parliament with Blair's cronies. As well as the cronies of Shroeder who is attacking workers pension rights.

If the LP opposed Blair they would have left the Parliamentary group and called for the transformation of the British LAbour Party.

Of course they did not do this, as the Irish Labour Party are a capitalists party.

by Magneto Mon Nov 03, 2003 16:32

The Socialist Group and the Socialist international are both loosely connected groups. They do not operate on the basis of Democratic Centralism. Sections can disagree with each other and the leadership without getting expelled.

Contrast this to the situation in the CWI, where Sections are expelled if they disagree with the leadership.

The Irish Labour Party opposed the Gulf War. Unfortunately, just as the SP,SWP, GP and SF did, the LP took a bad position on the March Demonstration at Shannon and opposed Direct Action.

But some Labour members and GP & SF members openly disagreed with parties and participated in the Direct Action.

Unfortunately no member of the SP or SWP disagreed with the sabotage of the March Direct Action. Instead they did everything they could to sabotage it, spreading scare stories about:
the Gardai firing into the crowd,
the need for medics;
the SP also supported the Airport Cops against GNAW and CWM,
and to cap it all, Joe Higgins described GNAW as virtual warriors just as we were face to face with the Gardai and Airport Police and as 10 of us were being arrested.

I think the LP members who took part in DA have a better record of opposition to the war than anyone in the SP or SWP.

by yawetag Mon Nov 03, 2003 21:36

"Contrast this to the situation in the CWI, where Sections are expelled if they disagree with the leadership. "

Not true whatsoever. You have obviously not read the documents that were published from the last CWI world congress.

Yes the SP did oppose tearing down the fence at Shannon. As has been discussed to death on this site, the SP did not think that it was the correct tactic at that time. The SP see Direct Action as a tactic not an ideology.

The fact is that the LP are still affiliated to Blairs Party. Whether the ties are loose is not important. Actually the fact that they are loose ties should mean that it would be easier to break them?

Labour are a sell out party. They are responsible for social partnership, cutbacks, tax amnesties, privitisations etc etc. They have played a disgraceful role in the bin tax. No LP TD, MEP or Cllr has come out a backed the jailed residents or supported the blockades. They have not used their positions in the unions to call for industrial action against the jailings. Instead they have joined in with the rest of the capitalist press and establishment and condemned the demonstrations. The LP are not opposed to bin tax in principle but just oppose the way it is charged. It is also record that LP members on Dublin City Co. voted for the bin tax which is what happened throughout the country.

by yawetag Mon Nov 03, 2003 21:41

The Labour Part would have supported the war if it had a UN mandate. They did not oppose the war in reality.

Also the Lp in a leaflet teh issued called for continued UN sanctions against Iraq as an alternative to war!!

I still have that leaflet.

The LP also boycotted the MArch 1st demo (apart froma few renegade members) which added significantly to the red scare tactics used in the media that day.

The reality is that the LP used the war issue in an attempt to gain votes.

by random input Mon Nov 03, 2003 23:15

dig out a Labour Youth leaflet I was handed during one of the demos at the Dail. It's not the one saying sanctions were an alternative to war (although I'm sure I either read or was told previously about that one) - could you post the text?

Anyway, the leaflet I have here is an astounding example of saying almost nothing at all.

[leaflet begins]

Page 1: "GET THE WAR OUT OF SHANNON"

In blatant disregard for Irish Neutrality, the safety of Irish citizens not to mention the lives and well being of the people of Iraq, the Irish government is facilitating the landing and refuelling of American warplanes on a daily basis at Shannon.

The conversion by the Fianna Fail/PD government of a civilian airport into a death port to support Bush's war effort is despicable. The government is showing contempt for democracy by subverting the wishes of the Irish people who are overwhelmingly opposed to Bush's plan to wreak murder and devastation upon our innocent brothers and sisters in Iraq.

HELP PUT AN END TO IRELAND PLAYING ANY PART IN BUSH'S WAR ON IRAQ DESIGNED TO CONTROL THE OIL SUPPLY FROM THE MIDDLE EAST.

FIGHT BACK
Join Labour YOUTH

Page 2: "STOP refuelling of death machines"

Labour Youth believes that the best way for the people of Ireland to actively oppose the war in Iraq is to engage in non-violent direct action to block the use of Shannon as a U.S. war port.

If the Bush administration is serious about sending a signal to the world that it will not tolerate the use of weapons of mass destruction it should immediatley start to prosecute the one country in the world (the U.S.A.) that has used nuclear weapons against human beings.

Furthermore the Bush administration should immediatley start prosecutions against the U.S. for arming the evil dictator Saddam Hussein in the first place. It is time that the death machines that pass through Shannon to fight against terror are sent back home where they belong!

Labour Youth believes that that [sic] the billions wasted on war should be invested in projects that will educate people not kill them. Hospitals and schools ahould be [b]built - not bombed.[/b]

If you share our vision then join Labour.

FIGHT BACK
Join Labour YOUTH

[leaflet ends]

No offence to Magneto, this is directed at your party, not you. Now to me reading this it seems that Labour Youth's main problem with the war is Shannon. Nowhere in the leaflet does it say 'stop the war' as a statement. The closest it comes to it is saying that NVDA is the "best way for people in Irealand" to oppose the war. Nowhere does it say "We are against the War, end of story." It doesn't even say "We are against wars that don't have UN mandates". It does mention the war being about oil, but it doesn't make any kind of link between this war, the oil factor and capitalism - or this being Labour, I should say "unregulated capitalism" - quite strange for a 'socialist' party, no?

It also makes the astounding assertation that somehow the US were 'fighting terror', rather than raining it down. I quote: "It is time that the death machines that pass through Shannon to fight against terror..." What the hell? "FIGHT AGAINST TERROR"?

Now this might appear irrelevant or whatever, but I certainly think its important, as this is what Labour (Youth) were giving out to people, many of whom I assume actually took the time to read it. Surely I can't be the only one that reads all the leaflets I take on demos? Also in the leaflet LY call for NVDA at Shannon. Or so it seems. But given the severe absence of Labour from the 'tear down the fences' Shannon action (even the march bit!), it seems that it was just empty rhetoric - like so much other Labour blabbering.

by LPleaflet Tue Nov 04, 2003 17:05

It was clearly stated that it was a Labour Party leaflet that called for further sanctions as an alternative to war.

In saying that, I am sure I could find loads of terrible positions in the LY leaflet, but I don't want to waste my time reading bourgeois careerists leaflets.

by Magneto Wed Nov 05, 2003 14:14

The SP chose to bring this thread off topic but they cannot hide from the truth of their activities in the IAWM.

The SP opposed all direct action at Shannon other than strike action by the Airport Workers, something which they knew was not going to occur.
They then refused to carry out an Anti War lobby ofthe Congress SDC!

The SP spread scare stories about Shannon and Joe Higgins even condemned GNAW as the cops were arresting them. The SP even supported the Airport Cops against the demonstrators!

Given the SP record on Evian, attacks on the Black Bloc, supporting a British Army Recruitment stall at QUB, opposing naming a bursary after Pat Finucane; they are hardly in a position to criticise anyone.

Whatever happened to the Pakistan section of the CWI? Or the South African section?

BTW whats happening about the scam in the Ukranian section of the CWU?

by Lady Magnet Wed Nov 05, 2003 16:34

The SP ate my hamster!

Face it Magneto, you can list as many dubious allegations about the SP as you like. You are still a member of a party that supports privatisation, supports tax amnesties for the rich, supports partnership in the unions, supports war with UN backing, fails to support the anti-bin tax protests and just plain supports good old capitalism.

Rabbitte is no different from Ahern or Harney. You are no different to the members of Young Fine Gael who post here sometimes. You are a hack in the remnants of the youth wing of a right wing party. You are either a careerist or you are a bewildered fool surrounded by careerists.

Cue, "the SP did [insert allegation here]". Come on Magneto, can't you do better than that? I'm not interested in the SP or any other trots.

I'd just like to see you, just once, mount a defence of your own wretched political party rather than trying to distract attention by giving out about someone else. I'm not holding my breath.

by anarcho - . Wed Nov 05, 2003 16:43

weird weird weird, everyones had their scraps with the spers (me included), but yours just goes on and on and on. . At least joe higgins made his critisisms under his own name. And magneto you're in the labour party!!! You're not in much of a position to critize going by Labours record. How about taking about anything else for a change?

by joe higgins - eats babies Wed Nov 05, 2003 16:48

magneto attacks the socialist party. makes sense.

by Magneto Wed Nov 05, 2003 16:53

I have on numerous occasions explained my reasons for being in Labour. When its obvious that the SP are involved in an attack then its only appropriate to point out THEIR failings.

Only the SP themselves deny the reality of their sabotage of the Shannon direct action. The SP also praised the rstraint of the cops at Evian, the QUB activities are well documented. As are the expulsions from the CWI. Theres nothing dubious about this.

I stand by my position that those LP members who took part in DA at Shannon have a more honourable rcord in opposing the war then either the SP or SWP.

I am a critic of sopme of Labours policies, but thats the bonus of being in a Democratic Party, you can criticise it without being expelled. In a "Democratic" Centralist party like the SP, anyone who openly disagreed with the leadership would get the John Throne treatment.

Take Roger Cole, always clashing withe leadership, hes been ratified as a candidate in the local elections.

If it was ok for Militant to spend 15 years and 3 Coalition Governments in Labour, then its ok for me to believe that its worth trying to turn Labour to the left.

M'Lady, I am sur you will now berate the SP for the many years they spent in Labour (without giving birth to a revolutionary party).

by Lady Magnet Wed Nov 05, 2003 18:48

I'm not going to berate the SP for having been members of Labour a decade ago. I think they were fools to have wasted their time, but I don't really care very much.

I do care that your bizarre obsessions came fairly close to fucking up this newswire before and that you seem to be heading back on the same path again.

I do find it fucking bizarre that a Labour Party member has the brass bollocks to turn up here and give out about anybody on the left.

Right now you are a member of a party that supports capitalism.

You are a member of a party that supports privatisation

You are a member of a party that supports tax amnesties for the rich.

You are a member of a party that opposes the bin tax protests.

You are a member of a party that never fails to stab a strike in the back.

You are a member of a party that supported war with UN backing.

I don't care if you personally think that all of these things are wrong. Some delusional Young Fine Gaeler could think the same. I would think that he was an idiot just as much as I think that you are an idiot.

Yet here you are demanding "answers" from people who regardless of their infantile trotty politics have been willing to put themselves on the line over and over. As I said, you have brass bollocks and I have no intention of encouraging you by arguing with you any more.

There's an old expression on the internet Don't Feed The Troll and from here on I am abiding by it.

by Magneto Wed Nov 05, 2003 19:01

My dear Lady, why wont you criticise the SP for being in Labour when it had far worse policies than Labour has now? I think you are the Troll & a SP troll at that.

Off you go now to support the cops and other workers in uniform.

by devo Wed Nov 05, 2003 20:39

The Labour PArty at one time was far more to the left than the current LP. The LP of connolly and Larkin was a workers party. The SP were right to orientate towards a workers party, anything else would have been sectarian. The SP are also right to identify that the LP are now a capitalist party. It seems people like the SWP still think the LP are a workers party?!

The LP are the cop lovers. When in power it was the LP that increased Garda powers and spending on cops. Why didn't the LP when in government dissolve the cops and set up a workers police force?

by Magneto Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:19

The SP dont call for the Gardai to be dissolved, they want more community control of the cops. A position I would share, its an important transitional demand.

Short of an actual revolution the cops are not going to be dissolved. To state this as an immediate demand is ultra left silliness.

by droabno Thu Nov 06, 2003 16:55

Capitalism will not allow cops to be under genuine control of working class communities. If cops were under genuine community control it would mean that cops could not be used to break strikes, defend the property of the capitalists etc.

The cops are there for the ruling capitalist class not workers or their communities. Therefore the SP's demand that the cops be brought under workers' community control is essentially a revolutionary demand. It would mean that cops could not be used for implementing class rule. The SP do therefore call for the dissolution of the capitalist police. The Labour Party do not, all they call for is essentially more 'partnership' between cops and communities, which means more surpression for working class communities but this time with collusion and cooperation of workers.

The LP do not have a class analysis of the cops. The LP believe that the cops are our partners and are neutral in class battles. It is the Lp that while in power increased spending on the cops and have increased their powers to harrass working class youth and break workers strikes.

by Magneto Thu Nov 06, 2003 18:45

But the SP clearly call for the Gardai to be under Community Control, there is no mention of smashing the Gardai.

by smasher Thu Nov 06, 2003 22:46

Genuine workers control over the police would in effect be smashing the capitalist Gardaí. It would see the booting out of most of the rotten cops that regularly harrass workign people and show complete contempt for civil rights. It would also see that the cops implement law that is in the interests of working class communities and not big business. This is smashing the Gardaí.

Now magneto, defend your party's record on cops

by Magneto Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:15

Labour has always called for more democratic control over the Gardai - just as the SP does. To call for the smashing of the Gardai would be silly and Ultra Left, even the SP realise this. Thats why they call for more community control of the Gardai.

by smasher Fri Nov 07, 2003 19:52

"more community control of the Gardai"

MORE not total democratic control over the police force. It remains that the LP believe that the cops and the law are a neutral force in society and therefore working class communities can be in partnership with them.

by Rabbitte Quoter Fri Nov 07, 2003 20:17

Surely the point isn't that Labour think that the cops are "neutral" but that Labour think, in the words of Pat Rabbitte "We are all now citizens, consumers, workers and capitalists".

We are all capitalists apparently - the factory owner and the factory hand.

Labour is also in favour of "competition where possible, regulation where necessary".

All capitalists, all in favour of privatisation. The cops neutral in the class struggle? Pah, there is no class struggle!

by rabbitte hunting Sat Nov 08, 2003 00:52

whatever happened to the good old days when Pat 'Printing Punts' Rabbitte & Co were unreconstructed Class Warriors. Robbing from the rich banks and giving to the p.. well, giving to the Sticks?

Pat, I appeal to you to rediscover your days when you had nothing but contempt for the long arm of the law. Just because you see yourself as a funny man in the Dail doesn't mean I'll vote for you. Actually you are as about as funny as an hour long special of Bull Island.