Good Friday Resistance at Shannon

by Precision Man Fri Apr 18, 2003 05:03

Nice one.

Wonder how long it will take them to cop on. With a bit of luck you might make it till dawn.

by Joe B. Fri Apr 18, 2003 05:08

Are they arrested or not? The press release says they were arrested but you say they're still there.

by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker Fri Apr 18, 2003 05:19

5.17 not arrested, still undiscovered after 1 1/2 hours..give 'em a call 087 261 9938

by Ciaron - Dublin catholic Worker Fri Apr 18, 2003 05:38

5.37 They have finally been spotted after approx 2 hours on runway

by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker Fri Apr 18, 2003 07:41

Jenny and Martin have been arrested and are presently being held at Shannon Garda Station from 8.30 a.m. onwards 061361212

by Ruairi Fri Apr 18, 2003 09:24

Once again, well done to the courageous Catholic Worker activists who have continued to walk the talk when others simply sit by and criticise. Your actions are an inspiration and we must all pledge to support your upcoming trials!

Peace, RUAIRI

by R Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:17

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GET THE NEWS OUT!
by RUAIRI Fri, Apr 18 2003, 9:01am
Newstalk 106 Ph: 01 6445100
Today FM Ph: 01 8049099
RTE Radio: 01 2083111
Shannonside Ph: 043 47777
North West Radio Ph: 071 50003
Radio Kerry Ph: 066 7123666
South East Radio: 053 45222
Tipp FM: 052 25299
Waterford Local Radio: 051 872248
Galway Bay FM: 091 770000
Limerick New 95 FM: 061 319595
Cork 96 FM: 1850 715996
Cork County Sound: 023 43103
Clare FM: 065 6828888
Connemara Radio: 095 41616
Near FM: 01 8485211

by Reposter Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:35

Shannon at the end of a short road. the N19.
by Tim Hourigan

This is not over by a long shot.
Pull yourselves together people.
Did you not expect that the stage managed war coverage would cause some people to have doubts?
The 1991 Gulf war looked all cool and consumer friendly until we saw the road to Basra, and the other stuff that was kept quiet.

We know this, why do we not make this a message to people? It's an obstacle that needs to be overcome, and why not tackle it directly with
the public?

They're not actually all sheep or stupid.
If the Govt could grin and bear the demo on Feb 15th then surely we have the ability to see past a short-term low.

If you want to go listen to more speeches about how the war is bad keep on marching.
If you want to be effective, then do something besides following leaders.

1. Come planespotting at Shannon. Don't wait for a demo to come down,just ring 061-365871 and arrange a visit. No speeches, no banners, no
paper selling or recruitment, just you and the reality of Shannon AirForce Depot.

We need the help, and it will also help you by crystallising in your mind what's really going on, and you'll be able to give people at home
a first hand account. (it would have been easy and valuable to interrupt the speeches for ten seconds to point out to the crowd the
military-charter cargo plane that took off during the demo)We will tell you about the laws been broken and give you lots of other valuable info that you didn't get from the preachers with the megaphones. see the planespotting guide at www.refuelingpeace.org

2. Visit your local TDs clinics. ALL of them. Start with FF/PD but make sure that your local 'opposition' TDs are making an effort too.
I'm not talking about coming round in the night with paint. that's symbolic and nice and all that, but the TD is who you want, not the
building, so... go to the clinic. LOTS of you. But line up as individuals, each looking for separate time to discuss the war, constitution, rule of law in Ireland etc. Do NOT go as a formal GROUP that will be given the same time as a single constituent.

You are each entitled to be treated as separate constituents, even if asking similar questions.
So what if are repeating yourselves... that's the TDs PROBLEM not YOURS.
Clog up the clinics, bring the issues to their faces, When you see a Govt Minister on the street, react like you would if you
saw Dubya. go up to the particular criminal and tell them (in civil but stern language) exactly what you think of them.

The clinics and the street is where to get them.
While they wander around pressing the flesh, or whatever, (some playing the victim because their office got painted) they will feel accepted by
society.

Are we so brainwashed that we knowingly allow war criminals to walk the streets without saying anything? Go ahead try it. At the least you'll be getting it off your chest and in
their face.

So far I've confronted Bertie, Willie O'Dea, (at a function) Michael Smith (at another function) and Peter Power (in the street).

Be polite, but audible to members of the public.
Keeping up appearances in public is very important to politicians.

I'm busy at the mo, but I will start hitting clinics soon too. Why not
do the same?

3. Continue to protest in VARIED ways.
not just speeches for their own sake. exhort people to take action. Sit downs, non-violent civil disobedience, 4. REPORT THE GOVERNMENT to the GARDAI.

YES, that's right. They are CRIMINALS. The gardai are obliged to arrest them. Put the Gardai on the spot by formally reporting the Goverment for treason and war crimes. knock them off the fence, engage their conscience and test their dedication to their duty.

- after all, they accuse us of not adhering to the system. give it a
chance to work.

- if you don't believe in the system, then do it anyway. (a) you'll have
written proof whether it works or not and

(b) if you get charged for a non-violent protest action then you can
argue in your defense that the Gardai neglected their duty.

(c) it might just work.
- hundreds of complaints landing on the DPPs desk
will have an effect politically.
check the sample complaint at

5. Report the GARDAI.
Surely not? Oh, God yes. Senior Gardai in the area get advance notice of these aircraft coming
in. They know its a crime and they do nothing, and even attempt to cover it up.
That's against the Gardai's purpose and charter so they are in gross dereliction of duty.
In fact, a senior Garda who orders a subordinate to ignore their duty is in violation of the Offences against the State Act 1939.

Interference with military or other employees of the State. 9-(2) Every person who shall incite or encourage any person employed in any capacity by the State to refuse, neglect, or omit (in a manner or to an extent calculated to dislocate the public service or a branch thereof) to perform his duty or shall incite or encourage any person so employed to be negligent or insubordinate (in such manner or to such
extent as aforesaid) in the performance of his duty shall be guilty of a misdemeanour and shall be liable on conviction thereof to imprisonment
for a term not exceeding two years Can't say clear than that.

It's really your duty as a citizen to report this corruption of the force.
Get a cheap/ free lawyer to help write it up if you like.

Send it to the Garda Complaints Board, Garda HQ and the DPP with copies to your lawyer, the press, the Ministers for Justice,Defence (ARMY is at Shannon too, y'know) and the Taoiseach and any applicable Oireachtas
committee.

It only costs paper ink and stamps and riot cops usually don't hang around the post office.
Encourage others to do likewise.

6. Take a COURT CASE against the Government.
(If you have the time and the lawyers - some are willing to work for
free) A time-heavy effort only practical for some, but it gets huge press coverage and really puts the Govt on the spot.

7. Talk to people. Especially Pro-war people.
Find out what people are thinking, and engage them in constructive debate Some of the best conversations I've had recently have been with

- a former US Marine who was totally gung-ho
- snotty pro-war 1st year law students
- relatives and neighbours.

Didn't turn into a shouting match and the neighbours still talk to me. Be civil but don't be afraid to stick it to them.
If the truth offends them, that's a learning experience. Why should you be afraid to tell your neighbour that you oppose the
war? Would your neighbour be afraid to tell you they support it? That's off the top of my head.

If we give up now then we're not taking this seriously. It was always going to be hard, especially with the PR spin on the war, but it is worth fighting for, not just for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan,(the Syrians, Iranians and maybe the French) but for us too. There's a huge imperial project going on, and those who can see its plot unfolding have to keep striving and educating before its really too late. That's my two bits for now.

Get your ass to Shannon soon, don't wait for a demo.

Tim

by Boss Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:41

Apparently Bertie has just given himself a €500 a week pay rise just as he claims Irish workers are getting too greedy! Cheeky bastard!

I suppose he earns it as Bush's Irish puppet. Anyway, it's time to shake these TDs (our RE-presentatives) awake.

For a full list of TDs + phone numbers etc see the Trade Justice Ireland website at http://www.tradejusticeireland.org/TDList.htm

- it takes a while to load!

Another good source of info is the RTE Dail Guide at http://www.rte.ie/news/oireachtas/index.html

by Iraq is free Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:46

Who are these people at Shannon?

From meida reports the seem to be one sided. Was the media correct in saying they only commemorated dead Iraqi children? Why is that?

Picking and choosing who you pray for is not what catholics do. I have prayed for everybody caught up in this war. I lit a candle for Lance Corporal Ian Malone, a brave irish Man who lost his life in the war. I preume this makey-uppey radical 'catholic' group at Shannon wouldn't want me to mention Ian or commemorate him in any way.

It is in fact rather insulting that they abuse the name or a religion in such a way.

by Wild Irishman Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:00

Michael McDowell is scheduled to speak at a public meeting called

"The State of the Nation: What we Stand for in 2003".
It has been arranged by his party, the "progressive democrats"

Marino Institute of Education on
Monday 28th April at 8pm

Since he is a supporter of the illegal invasion of Iraq I'm sure he would be "delirah" to hear the views of some of the 130,000+ people who turned out for the Feb 15 marches.

No doubt he may also have something to say on the ongoing intimidation of planespotters at Shannon USAF Base.

by Eoin Dubsky Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:16

Like the American Friends Service Committee (http://www.afsc.org/), the Catholic Worker movement isn't about any one religion... see http://www.catholicworker.org

"Iraq is free" if you read over the press release again you may see that it speaks briefly to the social and economic injustices which drive people like Ian Malone to join the british military and participate in these atrocities.

by c Fri Apr 18, 2003 13:22

Ring rte and find out why the story was not on rte tv one o'clock news.
number 01 2083111
and ask for the TV desk.

by S. Aerobics - Reclaim the Runways Fri Apr 18, 2003 14:28

Well done, great news !

by Ken McDonnell - SP Fri Apr 18, 2003 15:48

Ecactly how is this supposed to win workers over to blacking US military panes? It will cause trouble for the SIPTU Airpot Police.

by jm Fri Apr 18, 2003 16:42

this is a response to the above "iraq is free" poster.

you state that you object to *their* use of the catholic religion. well, let me see. if you want to get really pedantic, and it appears that you do, the term catholic, at one of its baser meanings, is universal. so (from dictionary.com)

cath·o·lic( P )Pronunciation Key (kth-lk, kthlk)
adj.
1)Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: “The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found” (Scientific American).
2)Including or concerning all humankind; universal: “what was of catholic rather than national interest” (J.A. Froude).
Catholic
Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.

My point, other than to be a fuck, is to let you know that *your* interpretation of *your* religion is simply an interpretation, a single reading of a polysemic entity. by the way, religion, even the Most Holy Roman Catholic one, is, at the end of the day, a personal thing.

also, hats off to the catholic workers. i dig waht they do. and i don't think that anyone who joins an invasion force is brave, even if he is from Dublin. but that's no reason not to pray for him.

by Eoin Dubsky Fri Apr 18, 2003 17:11

The potent symbolism of the action, and the courage of Martin and Jenny to stand up for what they believe in, could do a lot to win the hearts of workers over to withdraw their part in the war. It was a prayer, I guess, to the Earth and to God (the potatoes, the shrine), but also a call to conscience for all of us.

What would you propose instead? What have you done instead?

I attended a talk organized by the SP in Dublin a few days ago to hear Michael Birmingham on Iraq. Suspicions I had heard about your party were unfortunately given some more merit to me by the N.I. chairman of the Socialist Party who spoke of winding down this whole anti-war campaign, which had produces a lot of new names on mailing lists... Like as if it was just a good recruiting opportunity.

by Deirdre Clancy - Catholic Worker Fri Apr 18, 2003 17:48 deirdreclancy at hotmail dot com

They are wonderful people, calm and self-effacing coming up to the action, focusing only on the reasons they were doing it, which was to express solidarity with the suffering people of Iraq and to mourn those slain as a result of this greedy war.

Eoin is correct in saying that Catholic Workers are not necessarily always Roman Catholic, although many are. They often question the assumptions of the institutional church as much as they question the societal structures which create war and economic injustice. This doesn't mean that they are any less Catholic than those who unquestioningly follow church dogma. Faith can't exist without doubts and challenges.

I was at the meeting Eoin refers to, and was also perturbed that an eye-witness account of events in Iraq later turned into a party political broadcast, especially toward the end. The SP have made a valuable contribution to the movement, but diversity of expression in how to approach anti-war protests needs to be respected more.

Henri Nouwen once made a point similar to one Caoimhe Butterly articulated in the contribution she made at Michael Birmingham's talk. Her contribution was not really heard; it was denied by Joe Higgins (who I have time for in other respects) that the anti-war movement (as defined by some) could possess any flaws or morale problems. But all groups/movements possess flaws, as do all individuals, and if the movement isn't going to fall apart we'd to well to listen to voices like Caoimhe's, which point out things we may not want to hear, such as the need for occasional self-examination. Nouwen writes "One of the reasons why so many people have developed strong reservations about the peace movement is precisely that they do not see the peace they seek in the peacemakers themselves. Often what they see are fearful and angry people trying to convince others of the urgency of their protest. The tragedy is that peacemakers often reveal more of the demons they are fighting than of the peace they want to bring about." Perhaps one of these (many) demons which needs to be battled is the needless rejection of diverse forms of protest. Martin and Jenny are creative and committed people: they still care deeply about the fate of those maimed, murdered and dispossessed by this war, which let's face it, is not really "over" yet.

by Ciaron O'Reilly - Dublin Catholic Worker Fri Apr 18, 2003 21:16

CATHOLIC GUY Can't see how Shannon Airport had much of a role in Malone's death...certainly had a role in the deaths of thousands of Iraqis. Big part of the action was a sense of complicity and repentance (change of heart and mind)..........the Catholic Worker is not a liberal movement it is a radical one - an exploration of the radical roots of Catholicism.......it is not the only radical phenomenon and is not a one size fits all thang...it's just one of many thangs, you might find relevant and want to hook up to...but it's roots are Catholic-anarchist-pacifist, doesn't mean everyone who volunteers in a CW soup kitchen or does a resistance action with us are catholics anarchists and pacifists...they have just decided we and the tradition are worth working with etc etc.....don't bescared of it, understand more, you don't have to agree with it etc etc

MEDIA CONCERNS -

by Ciaron O'Reilly - Dublin Catholic Worker Fri Apr 18, 2003 21:21

CATHOLIC GUY Can't see how Shannon Airport had much of a role in Malone's death...certainly had a role in the deaths of thousands of Iraqis. Big part of the action was a sense of complicity and repentance (change of heart and mind)..........the Catholic Worker is not a liberal movement it is a radical one - an exploration of the radical roots of Catholicism.......it is not the only radical phenomenon and is not a one size fits all thang...it's just one of many thangs, you might find relevant and want to hook up to...but it's roots are Catholic-anarchist-pacifist, doesn't mean everyone who volunteers in a CW soup kitchen or does a resistance action with us are catholics anarchists and pacifists...they have just decided we and the tradition are worth working with etc etc.....don't bescared of it, understand more, you don't have to agree with it etc etc

MEDIA CONCERNS - the mainstream media repsonse/interest has been relatively strong...sveral radio interviews, Irish language television, Irish Times, the Sun, the Limerick Echo, the Examiner, the Belfast paper have all calle din for interviews etc. by noon....such a coverage is not a primary motivation for resistance but we have to do damage cobtrol....the lie today is that the authorities caught our people within 10-15 minutes not 2/1/2 hour breach of security...this contradicts the evidenceyou havebefore you in terms of the time of indymedia pastings this morning etc. Similar to the pit stop ploughshares spin...the lie of assaulting and hospitalising a gard..rejected by the gards themselves etc etc

Great action Martin and Jenny...wonderful to see Karen out and about....you can jail the resister but not the resistance!

by R Fri Apr 18, 2003 22:09

update at RTE website http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0418/shannon.html

see video from RTE news at http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0418/6news/6news56_3a.smil

by Phuq Hedd Fri Apr 18, 2003 22:53

There's at least an hour's difference between the reported times in the bulletins coming in from the CW and the timestamps that indymedia.ie have on those bulletins. Presumably someone forgot to run "date" on the server after the daylight-savings time shift?

by Phuq Hedd Fri Apr 18, 2003 22:57

QUOTE:
Jenny and Martin being held at Shannon Garda Station
by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker Fri, Apr 18 2003, 6:41am

Jenny and Martin have been arrested and are presently being held at Shannon Garda Station from 8.30 a.m. onwards 061361212

QUESTION: I presume Ciaron that you mean that the telephone number 061361212 is accessible from 8:30am onwards? The way you've written this makes it sound as though at 6:41am you're claiming that J & M have been apprehended at 8:30am!

by Daithi Fri Apr 18, 2003 23:20

Yes, the server is still running an hour behind. I have no idea how to fix it....

by Phuq Hedd Sat Apr 19, 2003 00:32

Daithi,
try "man hwclock". Probably your system is not using Universal Co-ordinate Time (UTC) and thus isn't able to do the roll-over properly for the timezone. I note that indymedia.ie is running on FreeBSD, there is IIRC a file called /etc/sysconfig/clock which should contain 3 lines. UTC should be "on" and the Timezone should be appropriate.

Surprises me that it's not set up to do this already. I don't think you as a user will be able to do it, the sysadmin at umbar.pair.com will have to do it instead.

by Daithi Sat Apr 19, 2003 01:29

Haha. I'll pass that on to someone who knows more than I do - editing the front page without leaving out a < and disabling the whole page is challenging enough for me. But thanks anyway.

Incidentally I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that the press release was published before the arrests were confirmed (see the first few comments). Add that to the offset and it's quite a muddle.

If I can put editorial decorum aside for a moment, this was a fantastic action and reflects, in my opinion, another change for activism in Ireland - the Catholic Worker philosophy, which was developed by (among others, of course) many people of Irish heritage in the U.S., is coming back to Ireland and being combined with traditions that are typically Irish, illustrating the sterility and, paradoxically, 'backwardness' of cliched protests (which can be no more than rituals without reason or meaning). Congratulations, both of you.

by Still Laughing Sat Apr 19, 2003 13:48

Did any of you "workers" see the sign the liberated Iraqis held up on their day of freedom?

It said "US Human Shields, go home you wankers". It said a lot more than that. It said that the minority does not represent the majority. It said do not be involved in something that is of no concern to you.

You would be better off cooking the spuds for the poor in one of your soup kitchens, instead of fucking around with vegetables on the side of a rinway in the middle of the night.

It reminded me of you "returned" people from other countries. We do not want you to be involved in Irish matters that have developed when you escaped some years ago. You were not here when things were bad, so we do not want you when things are good. To coin a phrase, Catholic Workers "go home you wankers".

by Ruairi Sat Apr 19, 2003 15:19

'Still laughing' - The Catholic Worker Movement are more than welcome here in Ireland. Since arriving they have done more to act for a better Ireland than many and are particularly more welcome that the weapons manufacturing, water polluting, tax evading, law bending corporations and criminals we happen to call leaders.

by Ruairi Sat Apr 19, 2003 15:24

What;s the update on their arrest? Mainstream media are reporting that Gardai acting swiftly and that the activists were inside the airport too long. Ciaron's report suggests it was over 1.5 hrs before the 'keepers of the peace' arrived.

by Ciaron O'Reilly - Dublin Catholic Worker Sat Apr 19, 2003 18:55

Martin and Jenny have been charged with criminal damage, they appear in court May 8th. They were on the airfield for over two hours undetected, without much effort at hiding etc.

To the cynic/wanker above...they planted potatoes, that's where they come from dude, rather than played with them. Try it some time it's a mysterious process. The sign in Baghdad was obviously written up by part of the western invading force..."wanker" rather than "tosser" or "jerk" may indicate an aussie hand at work. 100,000 Iraqis taking to the streets on Friday demanding immediate U.S. withdrawl may also go against the analysis above.

by Ciaron O'Reilly - Dublin Catholic Worker Sun Apr 20, 2003 09:21

Still laughing - the betrayal of folks in the north is a serious issue. Maybe the deepest betrayal happened form folks in the free state like yourself, but yep the diaspora in OZ, England, and U.S. largely had a similar response as moral cowards like you...to accept Brit propaganda wholesale, confuse cynicism with insight and sit on your arse.

We did as little - I was expelled from high school fo protesting the Queens Silver Jubilee visit to Brisbane in relation to the military occupation of Northern Ireland - but we could have done more.

Thus to say this betrayal is so deep in our psychie it shouldn't be flippantly employed by cynical coqwards such as yourself.....you need to be seriously decolonised, some of the diaspora as Dan Berrigan puts it "have been colonised twice" the basis of Irish racism when they hit OZ or U.S. etc....sad sight in deed, floating in the slipstream of British imperialism etc etc..embracing the prejudices of the coloniser etc

by PHILIP Sun Apr 20, 2003 15:39

Do the Catholic Worker group actually support the catholic church?

Do they believe in transubstanciation and other similar hocus pocus peddled by the church?

Do they support the churches position on abortion?

And do the catholic workers try to convert people to catholicism?

Please answer these questions I've asked them before and got no reply.

by Still laughing Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:03

Mr Reilly, you really are good with figures. You have lost the plot. The issue here in Ireland seems to be that of Shannon Airport. Now you are speaking for the Iraqi people.

To say 100,000 people marched does not represent the population. The population of Iraq (1997 estimate) is 22,219,289. 100,000 is not a representative figure, and indeed that estimate is probably incorrect.

The fact that a couple od hundred wankers turn up at Shannon an odd time does not represent the population of Ireland either.

You just represent yourself.

When you blab about poverty etc, ask yourself this question.

When the Government of Ireland gives aid for Iraq, ask yourself if they could have given more if wasters like you and your gang of layabouts had not been responsible for the wastage of money on additional resources at Shannon.

Just get this into your head,
YOU DO NOT REPRESENT ANYBODY.
YOU WERE NOT ELECTED.
YOU HAVE NO MANDATE FOR YOUR RIDICULOUS ACTIVITIES.

In fact you have as much of a mandate as the IRA have.

Wake up.

by The Holy Mugger Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:12

I have no time for these spud weilding potato heads. These are the same group of vain idiots (Ciaron O'Reilly & Deirdre Clancy) who have been slagging off other sections of the peace movement. It's now time to slag them off. They just cant handle the fact that there are others besides them who hold a moral viewpoint towards the war. They would much prefer to be in their smug little minority box, preaching to the rest of us. Oh what a sense of importance we feel ! Martyrs even ! These are the same publicity seeking self-absorbed prats who attacked a US navy plane a week after Mary Kelly had already attacked it. How stupid. The horse had already bolted. Ciaron O'Reilly's aggressive behaviour at the Dail protest was dispicable the day the Dail voted to permit continued use of US military through Shannon. He used a megaphone to verbally abuse an anti-war TD. These are the sad deluded looney fringe of the peace movement. How could anyone take them seriously ? Planting spuds beside the runway. What a joke !
I've been in stitches all weekend. What next ?
Will Ciaron sacrifice himself on a cross at the top of Grafton St. ? Then he could get a whole RTE "Would you believe" programme made about him again.

by Justin Morahan - Peace People (Writing as an individual) Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:30 justinmorahan at eircom dot net 4944124

Well done on your brave and lonely action reminding us again of the previous actions of the "five" and also Mary Kelly's lone and very brave action. You have kept our anti-war protest alive.
Forget the begrudgers and the smart comments from anonymous people who are afraid to put their names under their nasty remarks.
Hold your heads high.
Justin Morahan

by Old Nick Mon Apr 21, 2003 15:12

The catholic workers are fucking idiots. How can we take serious people that believe that Jesus rose from the dead, that he walked on water and fed the multitude as well as make wine out of water and make the blind see. What hocus pocus.

Another thing the catholic worker crowd are actually quite riht wing on social issues. For example the worked with Youth Defence in recent Abortion referendums as well as being practicing catholics.

They actually believe in Transubstanciation! What mystic crap!
The difference with them and other Catholics is the CW crowd will chase you with an axe if you wont engage in their shite.

by The Holy Mugger Mon Apr 21, 2003 17:13

Dont get me wrong. I did support the principled and brave actions of Eoin Dubsky and Mary Kelly. However I seriously question the motives behind the Catholic Workers Martyrs. These religious zealots are only in it for themselves.

by The Holy Mugger Mon Apr 21, 2003 17:18

My campaign against the Catholic Workers Martyrs is based on their sniping and nastiness against other anti-war groups. It was they who started it, promting a closer look at their holinesses activities.

by Old nick Mon Apr 21, 2003 19:37

Another thing I heard about the Catholic Workers is that they are against homosexuality. some branches of their movement even initiated 'gay bashings' in New Zealand.

by The Holy Mugger Mon Apr 21, 2003 21:02

In fairness to The Catholic Workers, I don't think they are anti-homosexual. However I would be interested to learn their views on abortion. Are/were they involved with Youth Defence ?

by Ciaron O'Reilly Mon Apr 21, 2003 21:30

Dudes chill out you're working yourself into a frenzy over a small, unresourced group who are forced to sign on at the cop shop daily and have plenty of state surveillance. If you're wanting to organise a witch hunt I'm afraid some bigger and uglier boyz have beaten you to the punch.

Chioll dudes, get a life do some resistance to the war

by The Holy Mugger Mon Apr 21, 2003 22:29

Ciaron,
You could chill out too. Maybe now you have learnt your lesson. Your action at Shannon in disarming a plane which had already been disarmed was plain silly or simply a publicity seeking excercise for your group. It was criticised by others in the movement because it was seen as damaging to the cause. It achieved nothing. No matter what anyone sayes it diminished the power and symbolism of Mary Kellys action. Maybe it was plain selfish on your part. It certainly alienated alot of public opinion against the anti-war movement in general. It also led to the closure of the peace camp at Shannon, probably the worst thing to happen in the campaign. The peace camp was a focus for everyone. A centre of debate, an international symbol. It never reached it's full potential.

The new Irish peace movement is very split.
These fractured groups have all grappled for the moral high ground/ the leadership of the anti-war campaign. It's great though that we now have the basis for something strong, something united. We now need to come together and fight on common ground with no religion, no politics. That doesnt mean publicly slagging off the politicians who are on the same side, Ciaron. We need them.

The slagging from me is now over. The Holy Mugger will now go back to confession. Peace to you Ciaron.

by Old Nick Tue Apr 22, 2003 09:42

Ciaran will you answer the questions that were asked. You have not denied the allegations that you are homophobic and that you campaigned with Youth Defence. These are fairly serious allegations, are you accepting them as being true?

I don't see what the size of the Caholic Worker group has to do with anything, your influence is bigger than your size and it is important people know what you stand for.

by Real Green Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:21

Maybe even one of the TD's (is that you Trevor)? Hence their really odd distinction between Mary Kellys 'good' smashing of the the US Nay Jet and the CW5 'bad' smashing of the same plane a few days later. The only thing that had changed between the two dates was Trevor's line.

by conor (wsm [personal capacity) Tue Apr 22, 2003 15:34

still wanking : Did any of you "workers" see the sign the liberated Iraqis held up on their day of freedom?

It said "US Human Shields, go home you wankers". It said a lot more than that. It said that the minority does not represent the majority. It said do not be involved in something that is of no concern to you.

me: of all the more obvious "rigged" stunts of the entire war that ONE SIGN was one. Think about it - Iraqis being bombed for days sitting at home writing sign with perfect english slang (wanker being an expression that even some one in Iraq with fluent aussie/brit English would be EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to ever occur) on it just to put up at the exact right time.

It beggars belief

The real reactions of the iraqis are becoming more and more and more visible on the streets - even as the media "drifts away" with thousands of demonstrators.

> To coin a phrase, Catholic Workers "go home you wankers".

it appears that both of them were from Sligo......still laughing rates high on the accuracy scores but not that surprising after the way they spell runway !

still wanker: The population of Iraq (1997 estimate) is 22,219,289. 100,000 is not a representative figure, and indeed that estimate is probably incorrect.

me: its a tad more reprensentitive then two muppets with a sign !!!!

I think all the Catholic Worker bashing relates seriously to a FAILED "peace movement" which had massive popular support and still failed to mobilise that anger to shut down the stop over.

The only thing that had some effect were the Catholic Worker and Mary Kelly actions. I don't agree with the lads/dies politically but hugely respect their willingless to put their money where their mouths are. they've achieved more then the five or six whingers above will ever due in their entire combined lives

respect - beir bua !

The Holy Mugger is a GP spin doctor
by Real Green Tue, Apr 22 2003, 9:21am

Maybe even one of the TD's (is that you Trevor)? Hence their really odd distinction between Mary Kellys 'good' smashing of the the US Nay Jet and the CW5 'bad' smashing of the same plane a few days later. The only thing that had changed between the two dates was Trevor's line.

me: here here
its not surprising how people who are consistent, pricipaled and effective in their actions can bug the hell 2 faced , lily livered word merchants

Conor

by Justin Morahan Tue Apr 22, 2003 18:45

I don't know. Maybe people like Brendan O'Connor, Kevin Myers, Eoghan Harris, Eilish O'Hanlon etc.
I think we shouldn't imitate them.
Everybody's different. Our energies should go into stopping the war machine.
Every heroic action deserves praise.

by The Holy Mugger Tue Apr 22, 2003 19:07

I thought I said I was retiring.

To Real Green: You have got to be joking. I think Trevor Sargent has better things to do than this. I represent no one but myself. Maybe you are the one spinning now ? Neither I on this website nor Trevor Sargent said that the Catholic Workers 5 attacking the US Navy plane was "bad". But I believe it was pointless. It was not a disarming because it (the plane) had already been disarmed. Thats why I said it was pointless. Thats why the unconvinced public saw it as just plain badness for badness sake.
The fledgeling Irish peace movement should learn from these actions.

To: Justin: You are right. These so called journalists started it. Lets think out our heroic actions before we make them.

by noone Tue Apr 22, 2003 20:53

Sorry. I didnt read the article. I just thought I could say my peice on Shannon. These 'peaceful protests' are doing nothing! 2 weeks ago in Shannon, no more then 700 people gathered. Had a little rantndrave and got their speeches from the 'big boys'. Afterwards, I was personally thanked by a butchy cop in his riot gear for his overtime. I was disscusted.
I dont expect many people to like my opinion, but I feel that these peaceful protests are doing nothing. At the begining it was great to see such numbers. I thought Irish nuetrality could be saved peacefully. Bertie didnt listen to the thousands of families who marhed against the war.
We all know we were not going to stop this war. But we showed our opinion. And it was IGNORED. I feel it was always possible to actually stop the use of Shanon Airport. We can still do it. But I am sorry to say that these peaceful protests will not work. We tried.
I think it's time to take things to the next level. I have no doubt that this site is being monitered by our 'friends' so I will not say my ideas, but I think large scale dissobeadience (dunnospelling) is called for. I would of prefered it peaceful, but it did not work.
Thankyou

by The Holy Mugger Tue Apr 22, 2003 21:48

Noone, I agree with what you are saying. However the action by Catholic Workers in Shannon on Good Friday received hardly any publicity in the media. This type of action only turns off the general public and gains nothing. I'm sorry but it's just old hat now. If there is to be some form of mass civil disobedience then it should be passive resistence, not violent to property no matter how right or wrong. The public understands if you disarm a fighter jet because they can link it directly to murder of civilians in Iraq. But there arent any fighter jets or B52s in Shannon. The public wont understand or accept interference with the operations of a civilian airport (even if it's being used by foreign military forces) because jobs their livlihoods could be at stake. We must not be fascists in our fight for peace. There should be no victims but war and those who wage it.

by Still Laughing Tue Apr 22, 2003 23:46

I dont beleive what I am hearing from the holy mugger! Has the message got home to you? I hope Noone takes what you said on board. Civil disobedience my arse. What the fuck else has she being doing.

by noone Wed Apr 23, 2003 00:24

"What the fuck else has she being doing."

Sorry. I dont know what you mean by this. ?

by The Holy Mugger Wed Apr 23, 2003 10:21

Still laughing. My views havent changed. Maybe you misread me before.

by Real Green Wed Apr 23, 2003 10:31

Well whichever Green Party TD you are (or maybe just a REALLY dumb member) you obviously missed that the US Navy jet disarmed by Mary Kelly (with the support of the GP) had been REPAIRED the day before the CW action (opposed by the GP). So there is another stupid GP spin/excuse out the window. Entertain us, give us another reason for supporting one and opposing the other!

by The Holy Mugger Wed Apr 23, 2003 13:41

Real Green: You obviously have inside knowledge. I can only rely on the press. According to both RTE and The Examiner, the plane "was undergoing repairs". If it was fixed, why was it still in the hanger.

Anyway that totally irrelevant and was not the point I was trying to make if you read what I wrote before.

by Real Green Wed Apr 23, 2003 14:11

I do have inside knowledge, the wife of one of the US military repair crew told me (seriously, she was very irrate as she wanted her hubby back in Texas). But it was also reported in some of the media at the time and in the CW press release.

And the relevancy is that it shows you up as someone desperate to come up with ANY excuse for the really odd behaviour of the GP in supporting the first action but attacking the second. So either your a paid liar (or spin doctor as they are called in polite circles) or just really dumb. I mean a 6 year old wouldn't expect that sort of excuse to work.

by The Holy Mugger Wed Apr 23, 2003 22:46

Fair enough if that was the case. But it doesnt change my opinion.

If I was desperate to defend the GP position I wouldnt have brought the subject up in the first place as it hasnt been discussed on this forum in ages (to my knowledge).

I still contend that the second action diminished the impact of the first. I mean if it was another military plane then that would have had a different impact. Also many people that I spoke to, for example were of the opinion that they'd already made their point, why do it again ? Reason among others: Because by their own admission The Catholic Workers just want to get bums in cells. What you obviously dont understand is that these are supposed to be symbolic actions. Attacking the plane had no impact whatsoever on the war nor did it save one life (everyone I am sure agrees with this). So what is the purpose of a symbolic action ? Work it out yourself. If a symbolic action does not have impact then it is a waste of time. This one did not have much impact because it had already been carried out 6 days earlier by someone else. Whether you agree or not surely you can understand the arguement.

To be honest "Real Green" I really dont care what excuse works with you.

by The Holy Mugger Wed Apr 23, 2003 22:56

I still hold my opinions on their group but I dont wish the CW5 any malice and wish them the best of luck with their trial. I do not believe that because of what they did that they should be criminalised.

by Ciaron Thu Apr 24, 2003 12:02

Actual effect one plane disarmed - to be sure to be sure
Symbolic effect - 3 companies transporting trrops and munitions pull out of Ireland

by noone Thu Apr 24, 2003 13:34

"3 companies transporting trrops and munitions pull out of Ireland".

That's more like it!

by Stigmata Mon Apr 28, 2003 18:26

Miami Air, Northwest etc. They are all back now.
See newspapers today.

by Eamonn - Peace Party Sat Jun 07, 2003 15:54

SUPPORT PEACE PARTY!