Support the Firefighters, Communities Urged

by jenny b Fri Nov 22, 2002 23:35

Firefighters are the new miners, we cannot let the brit government break the firefighters. Firefighters are taking a stand, not just for themselves, but for all workers, if Tony blurs beats them into submission, like maggie did the miners, we are all fuked.

by hot trot Sat Nov 23, 2002 01:06

But are the IRSP not also in defence of the bourgeois state, hence 'republican'. How can you reconcile republicanism with socialism?

When it comes down to it you would probably fudge it and look for a negotiated settlement in industrial disputes.

The IRSP are unable to appeal to the firefighters, especially protestant firefighters because of your brand of physical-force Irish nationalism.

by Danielle Ni Dhighe - Irish Republican Socialist Movement Sat Nov 23, 2002 01:08 danielle at irsm dot org

No, the IRSP does not support the bourgeois state. Where did you get that bizarre idea?

by hot trot Sat Nov 23, 2002 17:58

you call yourself 'republicans', republicanism is an ideology of the bourgeoisie.

by Danielle Ni Dhighe - Irish Republican Socialist Movement Sun Nov 24, 2002 02:43 danielle at irsm dot org

The IRSP's official ideological statement certainly doesn't sound very bourgeois:

a) The IRSP is a revolutionary Marxist organization, and that by this we mean that the IRSP believes:

b) Class conflict is the motive force in human history;

c) The IRSP stands unreservedly and exclusively for the interests of the working class against all others;

d) Only the creation of a 32-county Irish socialist republic can provide the means by which Irish national liberation can be realized;

e) That there can be no socialism without national liberation in Ireland, nor can there be national liberation without socialism;

f) That there is no parliamentary road to socialism, because socialism cannot be forged by seizing the bourgeois State apparatus; nor is there a guerilla road to socialism, because a social revolution requires the active participation of the masses; and therefore that a socialist republic can only be established through the mass revolutionary action of the working class in the political, economic, and social spheres;

g) That socialism means the ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange collectively by the entire working class, with an end to wage labour, an end to production for profit and its replacement by a system of production based on human need; and

h) That socialism must be administered democratically by the working class itself, recognising the class dictatorship of the workers, because the vast majority of society is formed by that class. This does not suggest the need for a political dictatorship of a single party. Rather it calls out for a class dictatorship, administered through new working class institutions created to permit the greatest degree of political freedom for all working people.

by hot trot Sun Nov 24, 2002 14:18

There is not much out of the IRSP about internationalism.

Why is it that you support acts of individual terrorism? I thought you are marxists!

by Judith Sun Nov 24, 2002 23:35

The INLA is on ceasefire now, and has been on ceasefire since 1997. The brit government on the other hand have been backing, protecting and patronising the LVF and deposed 'c' company vice warlord Johnny adair who have together commited numerous ongoing terrorist acts against both working class protestant and catholic people. LVF murdered protestant Gavin brett, catholic postie Danny mcColgan, PUP club catholic doorman Terry enright, Gerard Lawlor and journalist NUJ rep Martin o Hagan this year, despite the fact that republicans have been on ceasefire since 1997. So who are todays terrorists? it is blatantly obvious to both working class protestants and catholics exactly who are todays terrorists, even the UDA knows who their real enemy is, but the brit government seems to be oblivious to the activities of the LVF and deposed c company vice warlord johnny adair turning a blind eye to their murderous activities.

by Danielle Ni Dhighe - Irish Republican Socialist Movement Mon Nov 25, 2002 04:13 danielle at irsm dot org

"There is not much out of the IRSP about internationalism."

On the contrary, our International Department is quite active in supporting class and anti-imperialist struggles worldwide.

"Why is it that you support acts of individual terrorism? I thought you are Marxists!"

We support armed force as a tactic not a guiding principle.

by pat c Mon Nov 25, 2002 11:27

then he would not be making such an idiot opf himself.

"The revolutionary tradition of the national struggle is a precious good."
Leon Trotsky, 6 June 1936. (From his letter to Nora Connolly O'Brien, even after the Belfast outdoor relief riots Trotsky reaffirmed his support for republicanism and saw no change in the counter-revolutionary nature of the loyalist working class. Does this make Trotsky sectarian?)

"The British Socialist who fails to support by all positive means the uprising in Ireland, Egypt and India against the London plutocracy - such a Socialist deserves to be branded with infamy if not with a bullet, but in no case merits either a mandate or the confidence of the proletariat."
Leon Trotsky 7 August 1920.

by hot trot Mon Nov 25, 2002 12:14

pat c is always saying that Trotsky somehow supported nationalists and irish repugblicans unconditionally.

Trotsky gave a certain amount of critical support to an uprising against British imperialism. This does not mean that he would have supported SF/IRA.

Pat c always takes quotes from people and uses it out of context.

by pat c Mon Nov 25, 2002 12:53

not uncritically though. he also stressed the need to build a workers party; but not by capitulating to the prejudices of loyalist workers. even in 1936 he held to this position.

how am i using trotsky out of context? in all of his writings he supported the republican struggle.
in all of the writings also of lenin marx engels & the comintern on ireland you will find no support for the backwardness of the protestant working class.

its a strange application of the marxist method to ireland, if that method means ignoring all of the marxist texts relating to ireland & imperialism.

if trotsky, lenin, marx, engels & the comintern were misguided in ALL of their writings on ireland then why do you trust them on other areas?

for hot trot to maintain his position he has to ignore ALL of trotskys writings on ireland.

as for out of context quoting; trotsky against individual terrorism was not written abiut ireland, nor was it writen about national liberation struggles. it reffered to the narodniks & their like.

by OK - SP Mon Nov 25, 2002 16:08

You say it yourself "pat c". They key is building workers' parties. You dont want to do that! You just want to build Irish nationalistic parties.

If a workers' party played a leading role in a national liberation struggle it would have a huge say in how that 'nation' is organised and run after the success of a national liberation movement.

Pat C, you dont put forward socialist demands. You dont call for a "national liberation movement" pledged to a socialist programme.

You misunderstand and deliveratly misuse the words of marxists.

Trotsky did write against Individual Terror. Where does he say that it is correct for Terrorism to be used in Ireland? Terrorism is a tactic of desperation, it is an action that deflects from the real way of liberation, mass movements of workers, not terrorist actions of a self-appointed armed force.

by pat c Mon Nov 25, 2002 17:20

shown trotsky speaking in favcour of republican use of violence. i am getting fed up of this but everytime the sp misquote trotsky on individual terrorism i will strike back.

trotsky regarded the republican cause as a national liberation struggle he never called it individual terrorism

again i suggest you explain why you have to ignore all of the writings of marx engels, lenin & trotsky on ireland to justify your position.

you even have to ignore all of the communist international theses on ireland.

if everything these people wrote on ireland was wrong then why do you trust their writings on other subjects?

i have no more time to waste on a you. however as a parthian shot, i would reccomend "the communists and the irish revolution" edited by d.r. o'connor lysaght as an introduction to anti imperialism applied to ireland.

by Doubting Thomas Mon Nov 25, 2002 18:26

You never did get back to us to let us know how that kid is getting on, or how he found that INLA arms dump.

Here's a neat solution, and if the INLA are so commited to helping out the lads they can do their part.

1. Firefighters negoitation a settlement leaning heavily on performance related pay increases.

2. INLA break ceasefire, and take off on a firebombing spree.

3. Firefighters save the day, get their pay increase, and you guys can do your bit. I mean hey a few innocents are going to get hurt, thats a small detail and it's never really bothered you guys before.

by Danielle Ni Dhighe - Irish Republican Socialist Movement Tue Nov 26, 2002 15:13 danielle at irsm dot org

According to the boy, someone else told him they had seen someone placing items in a specific location. The boy didn't seem to know exactly what, just that the person placing the items there was known to be a member of a certain organisation.

by Oh of course Wed Nov 27, 2002 01:51

Cause I'd be that confused and vague after being terrified by an INLA "Interview"

Mind you he's one of the lucky few to come back from those informal chats you have with "informers"