racist Ireland website

by Jo Wed Jan 30, 2002 17:04 afa at ireland dot com

I was talking about his involvement, or rather lack of it, in anti-racist campaigning. I have come across him twice now and both times he is defending the right of the IPP to spread their far-right views. Which I find odd to say the least. It's not a bitchy personal sideswipe - I don't know him from Adam.

You accuse me of being bitchy, etc. etc and then go on to say "nasty, vicious, petulant behaviour I see from militant Anti-Fascists." Oh dear - hoist on your own petard. Anyhow I am intrigued as to where you would "see" what you call this "behaviour". We work with many people and groups who do not agree with the "No Platform" policy, and we do not prevent them expressing their opinions, indeed the opposite. Surely we are allowed to disagree with their views/strategy?

No Platform applies to the Far Right, not to liberals or others - but is it not strange that people OPPOSED to No Platform then attempt to censor working class anti-fascists, mainly by misrepresenting them.

You go on about "stooping to their level", etc. and the LIBERAL argument that opposing fascists, in what history as proven to be the only effective way, is wrong. 'Liberal' means politically liberal, it isn't a random term of abuse, as you seem to think. But I won't bother arguing as I'm bored with having the same debate. If you don't see why fascism has to be defeated using effective tactics, then there isn't much point debating in circles.

BTW the way it is a good website and much needed in Ireland and I have no hostility to it at all, despite your implications.

by Aidan O'Brien Tue Jan 29, 2002 20:21 aidanobrien at esatclear dot ie

First post to the Irish IMC site,

I'm all a tingle.......

Unfortuantely I see personnal attacks have already appeared.

Jo, Your attacks on "this Rowan" person, is the kind of bitchy sideswipes I'd hope not to see on this website. You accuse him, of "blabbering, moaning, dribble, and not doing any real work". I know Rowan, and he played an active and serious part in, among other things, getting this site up and running. Donating his time, knowledge and money to seeing this site come into existance.

Your reply is the kind of nasty, vicious, petulant behaviour I see from militant Anti-Fascists. Your way is the only way, and anyone who doesn't like it, or disagrees with it, is a soft namby pamby liberal wanker, who's doesn't deserve the right to have an opinion.

I agree with Rowan. Restricting a Fascist's freedom of speech, disallowing him his opinion, crushing all chances they have to speak, is well Fascism. I find their opinions, wrong, hateful, dangerous, and in the light of the recent tragic death of Zhao Lui Tao , something that must be opposed loudly and vehemently opposed. However I'm not going to stoop to their level to ensure I'll win.

Time and again history has shown us that, a political movement can survive and often thrives when oppressed. The rise of Communism in Imperial Russia. By shutting them up, and forcing your own viewpoint on to them you prove them right.

I'm not going to argue with you, on tactics and the right and wrong way to defeat fascism. What I am going to ask you to do, is respect the opinions of others. Espically here. He has a different perpective than you, and should be allowed express it without the kind of bitchy criticism you came out with.

Aidan

by Jo - http://www.geocities.com/irishafa Tue Jan 29, 2002 17:41

People may be interested to know that this Rowan person spent a week last summer blabbering the same crap on the Irish anti racism list. Majority were against him - he was moaning about AFA taking down the IPP posters. Remarkably this 'free speech for fascists' dribble has been his ONLY contribution to the list. And naturally enough no appearance to do any real work away from the keyboard.

The point is not about whether or not people are 'the same as' the fascists or racists regarding tactics, etc. This is simplistic facile 'philosophy'. It is about being opposed to them politically and fighting them in the most effective manner. So fair play to 'path' for removing the stickers.

The not repressing racists tactic worked well for Zhao Lui Tao didn't it. And with the papers full of TDs spouting extreme racist rhetoric - and an election coming up - there are a lot better things to be doing at present that these circular arguments with armchair liberals.

by Amanda Tue Jan 15, 2002 01:00

Last August the supposed intelligence division of the nsrus site put my name and phone number up on its site and maintained I had been making death threats to their members. The implications made were that people reading that should do the same to me. I had never even heard of this site or the organisation up until a journalist from the Examiner rang me and told me that my name was on it. Obviously I never made any death threats to them.
But for a couple of weeks it was kinda scary and eventually we managed to get my name and number removed.
I dont like the organisation and I didnt like it when they decided to target me. But I think that putting the names and contact details of people involved in the site on the global irl list is the same as what they did to me. I think that is us sinking to their tactics and I for one dont want to any part of it. Cop on. You can not critisis them and yet employ their tactics. Or do to them what others try to do to us. What they say discredits itself and anyone that is taken in by it is not going to change their views because we harass and try to censor them.

by Rowan Thu Jan 10, 2002 17:48

>shutting down their sites, ripping down their stickers and posters, and torching their offices are also perfectly justifiable forms of fighting.
So let me see, hmm, you disagree with an organisation's opinions, actions, principles and are scared, yes scared, of their proliferation, their capturing of the minds of susceptible people and thus their further tainting of society. You then proceed to raid their premises and/or steal their propagandist material, and otherwise injure their operations. Welcome to repression of expression. Genoa, Seattle, Prague, Gothenburg, Brussels, the ruling classes ordered exactly your tactics on indymedia, whom they see as morons. When you are 50, and if hold a position of power, will you continue to use the same tactics on the imc of the 2030s, whatever form it might take? Just torch their offices! That's the way we did it in the old days!

>again there's a lot of morons out there and some people just dont know when to shut the fuck up.
a lot of right wing and centre academics, journalists and authority figures would refer to imcistas types, protestors, just about anyone who speaks out against authority as morons too. The herald called PPP protestors 'middle class radicals' - a euphemism for 'stupid cunts' or 'fuckin hippies'. Should they try and shut our websites down because they see us as morons?

>The diveristy of opinion on the internet means >there's an awful lot of arseholes out there.
That diversity also gives rise to the existence of imc and the panoply of democracy, freedom fighting, anti-fascist, anti-racist etc sites which otherwise would be without a voice. The simplicity, the openness, the horizontal structure and freedom of the web IS its power. As far as I can work out, for every 'evil' site, there are a 1000 positive, useful ones.

anyway, lets agree to disagree. I wouldn't dream of stopping you taking down nazi posters, I just wouldn't be there with you. Now a march against racism, I would be there.

>I ripped down at least thirty stickers belonging to the 'Irish Peoples Party' between the Berkeley Road and North Frederick Street

since the Nice vote there have been two A2 IPP posters on lamposts on the corner of gardiner st and gardiner place, but they're waaaay up high. Probly need at least a 24ft ladder to get 'em down... if you get these down can you keep one of them for me? it'd make a nice souvenir of the craziness of some people, and a cold reminder of their existence... I just don't have a 24ft ladder.

by path Thu Jan 10, 2002 11:04

'fight repression not expression' if a website condemning other races and calling for their expulsion/execution isnt repression then I dont know what is - just because its a verbal rather than physical manifestation of repression doesnt make it any more valid or worthy. People can get very uptight about freedom of expression sometimes. I think its important too, but then again there's a lot of morons out there, and some people just dont know when to shut the fuck up. The diveristy of opinion on the internet means there's an awful lot of arseholes out there and if letting them shoot their mouths off means people are going to get hurt or killed then I dont know if I can let it continue in good conscience.

I ripped down at least thirty stickers belonging to the 'Irish Peoples Party' between the Berkeley Road and North Frederick Street about a month ago and would have no hesitation in hacking this site (if I had the skills to do so.. I'll get my nerd Unix sysadmin mate on the case instead). If they want to make their hate expression heard then they're going to have to try hard.

"If some normal person stumbles across the site and is stupid enough to be taken in by it, chances are that person would have fallen by the wayside anyway" - people can be swayed very easily by an opinion and I dont want to concede defeat, we cant give in like that, that's like saying "well if people are stupid enough to accept the world as it is at the moment, then we may as well not bother trying to change anything". Its our job to ensure that 'normal people' (whoever they may be :) dont get sucked into this sort of nonsense. We can do this through education, structured and intelligent arguments, and diplomacy. But in paralell to this form of combating their opinions, I think shutting down their sites, ripping down their stickers and posters, and torching their offices are also perfectly justifiable forms of fighting fascist scum.

My two cent.

by Rowan Wed Jan 09, 2002 20:56

do you believe in free speech for yourself, but not for your enemies?

Let them have their website. If you shut it down you become fascist like them. Suppression of freedom of expression.

>unbelievable some of the stuff in there..
you're right, unbelievable. I really enjoyed reading it. It gives us an insight into the diversity of thinking out there. If some normal person stumbles across the site and is stupid enough to be taken in by it, chances are that person would have fallen by the wayside anyway.

If they start posting stuff here, I won't hide it and I will object to everyone who tries to.

here's a classic example from the website; this stuff could be put to good use in anti-rascist literature:
"The genetic distance between Humans and negroes is bigger than the genetic distance between all 30 species of crow"

Obviously, if you accept that, then you were fucked anyway. Let them have their say.

AND, check this out, its the first line on the front page a site linked from nsrus, www.heretical.co.uk

""We went wanging down there, jumped out of the van and just started fighting... it was a great day out, fighting the Paki's. It ought to be an annual fixture. I thoroughly enjoyed myself." London Police Constable recalling the Southall riots in July 1981"

anyone doing research into anti-rascism would find this very useful.

by j piece Wed Jan 09, 2002 17:49

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