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F*ck you, we'll sing what we want

category international | miscellaneous | opinion/analysis author Wednesday June 27, 2012 09:33author by YBIG Report this post to the editors

"Rent a drunken Paddy"
"They are only there for a sing song"
"Singing away while we are humiliated"
"They are an embarrassment"

These are some of the abuse leveled at the Irish fans who travelled to the Euro's by a small, yet loud, number of fans who stayed at home. To those of us who travelled we have a different story to tell.

It's a rocky road to Poland. Our group of 40 took off from Berlin to each of the games early in the morning. Bohs fans, Pats fans, comrades all, Cork fans, Rovers, Shells and Drogheda. We were on the one road, maybe the wrong road but we were together now who cares? The expectation was high on the journey to the Croatia match. Many of us expected some form of result, we needed it as the next game against the best team in the world wasn't giving us any hope. As we arrived into Poznan the whole bus broke into chants and singing. We were there to be the 12th man. As the result turned out we actually needed a 13th or 14th man as we were simply outclassed both by superior players and superior tactics. Our one equalising goal gave us false hope and we broke into the poznan in Poznan. Even though we were losing most of the game we kept on singing throughout, we are supporters after all, not bandwagonners who jump on to support a team only when they are winning. The bus back to Berlin was subdued, our analysis of the game would have been the same as most fans at home. Ireland simply weren't good enough.

The second game against Spain in Gdansk was an even longer and rockier road. We had realistic expectations but still we had dreams. Even if we managed a draw somehow we could beat Italy and qualify. As we arrived into the old town we could hear the singing of the Irish fans. The square was packed full of thousands of Irish fans singing and cheering. There were many Polish fans who had taken to supporting Ireland because of the atmosphere that the Irish fans were creating. There was no trouble, no violence and no disgrace. Irish fans posed with Polish fans and Spanish fans for photo's. We were all here for the football and to enjoy ourselves. The match itself was less enjoyable for the Irish as Spain gave a masterclass in how to play football. We were down and out of the tournament. Around the 82nd minute (and not the 87th as some media reports had it) the Fields of Athenry broke out. As each minute went by more and more fans joined in the singing. By the end of the game there were easily over 20,000 Irish fans singing it in the ground. It was a genuine hair raising moment, one that we didn't have on the pitch. We did have dreams and songs to sing but we were now out of the tournament. There was to be no similar stories to tell like the Ray Houghton goal or that Packie Bonner save. We weren't going to have any stories like ringing home to get more money to go to the quarter finals. The rendition of the Fields of Athenry was going to have to be ours.

The reaction in the press the next day was phenomenal. It made the front page of a German newspaper who quoted Spanish fans who said they cried the last 5 minutes as they watched us sing at the end. Countless other newspapers all over Europe praising the Irish fans, called us Europe's No. 1 fans. Numerous You Tube clips of the singing were viewed hundreds of thousands of times by people. Fans from all over Europe were praising the Irish fans. Back home many joined in the praise but a small number of loudmouth begrudgers began to attack the fans. People who don't know the difference between a TicTac and a tactic derided the fans for singing as we were demolished on the pitch. It seemed they expected us to tear off the seats and riot. Some seemed to be deluded enough to blame the fans for the performances as they believed the FAI will be happy to serve up these kind of performances as long as the fans keep on singing. Some smug people called us 'not real' football fans as we didn't go to League Of Ireland matches. As a season ticket holder to a LOI team this smugness pisses me off no end. Nobody will be encouraged to go to LOI games if they think they are going to be standing beside some smug prick who thinks he is a 'real fan'.

As our bus made its way to the Italy game we met fans from other countries who were driving down to see the atmosphere of the Green Army looking for tickets off us, our singing hadn't made an impression on the Irish team but it did on fans all over the Europe. Once again we sang throughout the game, once again our team wasn't up to scratch. We ended our participation in the Euro's with another rendition of the Fields of Athenry. 'We had dreams and songs to sing' but now it was all over bar the plane ride home. Many Polish fans thanked the Irish fans for the atmosphere that we created, one even asking to teach him how to sing 'we all dream of a team of Gary Breen's'.

As supporters we had done our part throughout the tournament. Our team was substandard, the performances were awful and the tactics used are simply outdated and terrible to watch. I didn't meet one Irish fan over there who wasn't giving out about the games. Our analysis was no different then most fans. We could see the faults in the team, probably better than those at home as we could see the entire pitch and team set up. We can criticise the Irish fans who don't go to LOI games but we should encourage them to go, not abuse them for not going. Many of the LOI games I have been to this season have been far superior to the performances dished out by the Irish team. But the problems in the LOI and the Irish team run deep. A lack of investment in youth infrastructure and LOI clubs has to be addressed "Some problems can't be sung away" was a Bohs banner in the first LOI fixtures after the Euro's though the reality is no problems can be sung away. But the Irish fans in Poland weren't there to sing our problems away, we were there to support.

And to those small number of loudmouth begrudgers, you are clearly only jealous as you missed this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vemnEAuaKfg
Maybe most people wont remember us singing it in 10 years time, maybe they will only remember the football. I can guarantee that those of us who were in the stadium that night will remember it.

Anyway You only sing when you're winning

author by leftypublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

1/3+ of our daily newspapers and news reports are filled with stupid football shite, meanwhile real things that matter and profoundly affect our lives and the lives of other disadvantaged people worldwide are swept quietly under the carpet.

We don't need more football "bread and circuses" cluttering up this site as well. Why not research and write some real news articles instead of wasting our time with more football crap. It's already wall to wall on the MSM if thats all you want to hear about.

author by Rick Deckardpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 13:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The mongo fans are worse than the team , singing like a bunch of lobotomised muppets after the Ireland team are smashed into the ground. Roy Keane is right, they just go to the games to sing like leprechauns on laudanum. Sure they'd stand around a blazing house warming their hands trying to sing the flames out.

No matter what happens they are happy and they sing. FFS, have they got some kind of pharma-implant? If they were involved in a train crash they would sing the Chatanooga Choo Choo.

I can see the Irish Fans at The Battle of the Boyne, singing songs about Cromwell.

author by boredpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 13:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"No matter what happens they are happy and they sing. FFS, have they got some kind of pharma-implant? If they were involved in a train crash they would sing the Chatanooga Choo Choo."

Thats probably because they are pissed drunk full of cheap lager. Drunk happy paddies singing away. No wonder europeans have no respect for us and are laughing at our thick paddy government while they sell us out and pay off the multimillionaires 100 % on their gambling bonds. stupid drunken paddies, living up to our drunken stupid stereotype. One day we'll sober up and realise how stupid the europeans think we are.

author by YBIGpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 13:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Perhaps you should read Soccer and State by Gabriel Kuhn and look at the relevance of left politics to St. Pauli fans and the importance of ultras in the Egyptian uprising before you bother us with your trolling comments of 'stupid football shite'.

author by YBIGpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 13:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nice one Deckard, the whole article goes right over your head.

author by Rick Deckardpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 13:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

St Pauli fans are a tad different, on average they are more politically aware than your average Irish fan who goes to sing the Fields of Athenry after the team has been pulverised. Thats not keeping up the spirit, its moronic muppetism. Read Lenin on Marxism Opposes Moronic Muppetism.

The Irish fans sing about what we lost, they seem to revel in it. Why not sing The Boys Of Kilmichael? Sing about Victory!

Talk about St Pauli in conjunction with Bohs fans but don't shove them in with that terrible mutant ameoba that the Irish fans seem to dissolve into.

author by leftypublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 13:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Egytian uprising?? Yeah that worked out well. Guess if gullible football loving idiots hadn't been running things, they might have realised what was really going on!!

No more Mubarak but instead, sharia law, military oppression, business as usual and we'll throw you a football to keep you quiet. Nice!

Save your boring football stories for the daily mail / P.ie

author by Rick Deckardpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 13:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Be fair. The Egyptian Ultras did play a part and not on the side of the islamists. When things kick off again a lot of the Ultras will be fighting the State but they won't be singing songs about defeats.

You cannot compare the Irish Fans to the Ultras in Egypt, you can however compare some Bohs Fans to them and some other fans as well to be fair.

author by ZSMALLpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 13:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nice one Deckard, the whole article goes right over your head.

..and vanishes up your own bum.

author by YBIGpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 13:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Lefty save your pseudo intellectual posturing for someone else.I will suggest again that you read Soccer and State by Gabriel Kuhn. You quite clearly think you are intellectually superior to football fans yet your comments expose you for knowing sweet fuck all about what goes on out there. The Egyptian Ultras were an integral part of the uprising and many paid for it with their lives. You on the other hand offer nothing but abuse and a self inflated sense of intellect. You seem to be very interested in this thread for someone who doesn't like football.

Sorry Deckard I go to St Pauli matches and I go to LOI matches. To say that they are more politically aware than "your average Irish fan who goes to sing the Fields of Athenry after the team has been pulverised" is missing the point and also not true. At St. Pauli matches you are not allowed negative chants or singing and if you try and leave early you get shouted at. Even when we lost 8-1 to Bayern Munich.

Do you even go to any games?

author by leftypublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 14:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Lefty save your pseudo intellectual posturing for someone else.I will suggest again that you read Soccer and State by Gabriel Kuhn. You quite clearly think you are intellectually superior to football fans yet your comments expose you for knowing sweet fuck all about what goes on out there."

Pseudo intellectual? Thats a bit rich considering I'm not the one name dropping here. I just think watching football and drinking is a stupid waste of time. Its bread and circuses. It fills our media and newspapers to the detriment of real news. I only need one working brain cell to come to that conclusion.

I've no problem with people who actually get out and play sports. It keeps you fit.
For every philosopher / footballer like Gabriel Kuhn, there is a million pot bellied lager drinking idiots who don't actually play but just go on about it incessantly,

By all means go outside and play some soccer and get some good exercise. But don't bore me talking about it.

author by curiouspublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 14:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Just curious....
what the hell does the bravery of egyptian revolutionaries have to do with dumb drunken Irish football fans getting pissed and singing and having a great time for themselves? Surely that's a bit disingenuous to the brave egyptians?

author by YBIGpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 14:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

To call it name dropping is nonsense. You decry football as a waste of time and proceed to call it boring yet continue to post on this thread which is quite contadictory. The idea that you are suggesting that if there was no football the media would be filled with real news is simply laughable and brings in to question your one working brain cell. Perhaps you should just leave this thread to people who are interested in it.

author by leftypublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 14:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"To call it name dropping is nonsense. "

Because you say so? oh ok then sorry.
You dropped the name of one of the only two footballing philosophers I ever heard of in an article about drunk singing Irish football fans.

"You decry football as a waste of time and proceed to call it boring yet continue to post on this thread which is quite contadictory. "

No it's not contradictory. I post because I'm annoyed at seeing stupid football fan crap on a site that has a more important purpose than hosting self indulgent football fan crap. It already clogs up the airwaves, the internet, the tv news and a disproportionate number of column inches.

"The idea that you are suggesting that if there was no football the media would be filled with real news is simply laughable and brings in to question your one working brain cell. "

Sorry? where exactly did I say that? Perhaps your own brain cell is suffering from too much lager?

"Perhaps you should just leave this thread to people who are interested in it."

I am interested in it. I want to know why this self indulgent football crap is being posted here. There are better places on the internet for it. However If you promise to donate the price of a few pints of cheap lager to the site to compensate for the pollution and help keep it going for the benefit of real activists then I'll consider going away for the greater good. How's that?

author by leftypublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 15:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"You decry football as a waste of time and proceed to call it boring yet continue to post on this thread which is quite contadictory. "

I did not say football was a waste of time. Quite the opposite. I said that actually going outside and PLAYING football was good exercise.

I did however say that I thought watching football, drinking and talking about it incessantly were a waste of time.

Just go outside, play it, (you can picture yourself partaking in some sort of Camusian revolt against the absurdity of life while doing it if you're a name dropping pseudo intellectual) then maybe just shut up about it.

author by YBIGpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 15:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"You dropped the name of one of the only two footballing philosophers I ever heard of in an article about drunk singing Irish football fans."
I didn't drop the name of any football philosopher, let alone 2. I made a recommendation to read a book written by an anarchist about football and the state. Saying that you know the 2 footballing philosophers when none were mentioned shows that you don't actually have a clue. Further to this you then go and continue to insult me by saying I was wriitng about drunk Irish and insult the tens of thousands of Irish fans at the games by making generalised abusive allegations.

"No it's not contradictory. I post because I'm annoyed at seeing stupid football fan crap on a site that has a more important purpose than hosting self indulgent football fan crap."
It is completely contradictory as you continue to post on this thread that you have no supposed intererst in. You thankfully don't own this site as nobody would read it if they did. Instead we have to suffer your self indulgent pseudo intellectual posturing dressed up as a critique of 'football fan crap'

"Perhaps your own brain cell is suffering from too much lager?"
This is a pretty outrageous allegation to say I am suffering brain damage from alcohol abuse. You're a petty and pathetic individual for saying such. I f you had any credibility you would withdraw such a remark

"I am interested in it."
Glad to see you have been converted

"However If you promise to donate the price of a few pints of cheap lager to the site to compensate for the pollution and help keep it going for the benefit of real activists then I'll consider going away for the greater good. How's that?"
Yet again accusations of me drinking too much. You aren't a real activist, you're just a pathetic internet troll with a deluded self image. Its pretty pathetic looking for money to stop trolling.

"I did however say that I thought watching football, drinking and talking about it incessantly were a waste of time."
Yet here you are posting incessantly about it

"you can picture yourself partaking in some sort of Camusian revolt against the absurdity of life"
No need to as I already picture the absurdity of your life

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 15:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

..nobody mentioned Camus..

we could do with a fucking net-keeper

author by Baggiepublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 16:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

An excellent article and the majority of comments suggest why middle-class trots don't connect with working-class culture.

author by Rick Deckardpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 17:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I'm not a trot!

I don't think YBIG is making a valid comparison though between your average Irish fan and your average St Pauli fan. By his own writing above he shows how disciplined St Pauli fans are. I admit I haven't ever attended a live St Pauli game. Something I will rectify one of these days.

Getting to LoI, you don't see the discipline YIG mentions above, a lot of drunken slobs will skive off early, some just turn up looking for a fight. Then you get the minority of serious fans, YBIG is obviously one of them but he doesn't have to support the muppets

Singing songs about defeat and how we suffered, what a way to celebrate being Irish!

Why not The Boys of Kilmichael? Only died in the wool west brits would object to that. Or even a song about two defeats from which rose something stronger: In Dublin City In 1913.

St Pauli fans sing about Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebnecht being murdered but they sing:

“Up, up let´s fight!
Up, up let´s fight, let´s fight! We are born to fight!

Up, up let´s fight, let´s fight! We are ready to fight!

We have sworn to Karl Liebknecht, that we give Rosa Luxemburg a helping hand.

We have sworn to Karl Liebknecht, that we give Rosa Luxemburg a helping hand.

There stands a man, a man, as strong as an Oak!

He has surely, surely, survived many Storms!

Maybe tomorrow he will be a corpse, like so many other Freedom fighters before.

Maybe tomorrow he will be a corpse, like so many other Freedom fighters before.

We don´t fear, don´t fear, the thunder of the cannons!

We don´t fear, don´t fear, the green uniformed Police!

Karl Liebknecht we have lost, Rosa Luxemburg fell by the hand of a murder!

Karl Liebknecht we have lost, Rosa Luxemburg fell by the hand of a murder!

Up, up let´s fight, let´s fight! We are born to fight!

Up, up let´s fight, let´s fight!We are ready to fight!

We have sworn to Karl Liebknecht, that we give Rosa Luxemburg a helping hand.

We have sworn to Karl Liebknecht, that we give Rosa Luxemburg a helping hand.”


Auf, auf zum Kampf zum Kampf
Zum Kampf sind wir geboren
Auf, auf zum Kampf zum Kampf
Zum Kampf sind wir bereit
Dem Karl Liebknecht dem haben wirs geschworen
Der Rosa Luxemburg reichen wir die Hand
Dem Karl Liebknecht dem haben wirs geschworen
Der Rosa Luxemburg reichen wir die Hand

Es steht ein Mann ein Mann
So fest wie eine Eiche
Er hat gewiss, gewiss
Schon manchen Sturm erlebt
Vielleicht ist er
Schon morgen eine Leiche
Wie es so vielen
Freiheitskämpfern geht
Vielleicht ist er
Schon morgen eine Leiche
Wie es so vielen
Freiheitskämpfern geht

Wir fürchten nicht, ja nicht
Den Donner der Kanonen
Wir fürchten nicht, ja nicht
Die grüne Polizei
Den Karl Liebknecht den haben wir verloren
Die Rosa Luxemburg fiel durch Mörder Hand
Den Karl Liebknecht den haben wir verloren
Die Rosa Luxemburg fiel durch Mörder Hand

Auf, auf zum Kampf zum Kampf
Zum Kampf sind wir geboren
Auf, auf zum Kampf zum Kampf
Zum Kampf sind wir bereit
Dem Karl Liebknecht dem haben wirs geschworen
Der Rosa Luxemburg reichen wir die Hand
Dem Karl Liebknecht dem haben wirs geschworen
Der Rosa Luxemburg reichen wir die Hand


German singer Hannes Wader sings ‘Auf, auf zum Kampf, zum Kampf’ (‘Up, up, let’s fight’). It’s a classic song of the German left, with an early version coming to prominence during the Franco-Prussian War (1870- 71). In 1919, poet Bertolt Brecht wrote a new version in reaction to the murders of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht. This is the version sung by Wader in the vid.

Caption: ‘Auf, auf zum Kampf, zum Kampf!’: Bertolt Brecht’s song for Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht


author by leftypublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 17:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"I didn't drop the name of any football philosopher, let alone 2. I made a recommendation to read a book written by an anarchist about football and the state. Saying that you know the 2 footballing philosophers when none were mentioned shows that you don't actually have a clue"

It's fairly obvious who doesn't have a clue here! You dropped the name of Gabriel Kuhn, without even realising he was a footballer as well as a philosopher. Albert Camus played in goal, hence my other reference. You didn't have a clue about that either. You're clearly just an abusive idiot.

author by Gkpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 17:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Who is this Lefty troll? Gabriel Kuhn isn't a philosopher you know fuck all about football and yet come on and abuse people and continue to spout about something you know nothing about. Fuck off and troll on some other thread.

author by leftypublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 17:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"An excellent article and the majority of comments suggest why middle-class trots don't connect with working-class culture."

I'm neither middle class nor a trot, sorry. You're the one stereotyping the working class here. Being working class does not automatically mean you are stupid or illiterate, like football and booze and can't use a computer etc. And I somehow doubt drunken Irish football fans will lead the revolution.

For example, one of the biggest problems occupy had was dealing with late night drunken abusive yobs often wearing football jerseys.

author by leftypublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 18:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Who is this Lefty troll? Gabriel Kuhn isn't a philosopher you know fuck all about football and yet come on and abuse people and continue to spout about something you know nothing about. Fuck off and troll on some other thread."

Gabriel kuhn has a Ph.D in philosophy and played football semi professionally. It's clear who is the abusive idiot here.

author by YBIGpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 19:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

First of all Gabriel Kuhn doesn't describe himself as a philosopher. But thank you Lefty for your contribution to this thread, you have made your opinion known clearly.

To Deckard:
The comparison I was trying to make was that St. Pauli fans will continue to cheer and sing regardless of the result. It is a different culture but one I find admirable. It happens to a lesser degree at LOI games such as the chant "you only sing when your winning" invariably when your team has just gone a goal down. I don't view the singing as supporting muppets and I disagreed with people who view it as such hence the article I wrote. There were numerous LOI fans at the games and it would have been a disproportiante representation of LOI fans there compared to the percentage of football fans actually in Ireland.

"Singing songs about defeat and how we suffered, what a way to celebrate being Irish!"
Yeah I can see your viewpoint, but we did suffer in that Spanish game!. I thought the choice was quite apt. 'We had dreams and songs to sing". Why not the Boys of Kilmichael? well the song just broke out spontaneously in the ground and more and more people joined in. It wasn't organised in the slightest. Many Ultra groups at club level such as St. Pauli and some LOI clubs do organise before hand and come up with chants and songs. Some even use megaphones to direct the singing. I'm not aware of that level of organisation being done at a national team level though. At the Italy game the national anthem broke out at one stage by a small section of fans which I found quite cringeworthy.

A positive thing to come out of the whole thing is the current attempt by LOI fans from different clubs trying to organise a meeting to come together to try and force changes in the FAI as a whole. This is a development that in my opinion deserves praise and support.

And I would recommend a visit to St. Pauli if you get a chance. The fans involvement in the squat movement and anti fascist work is fantastic.

author by GKpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2012 22:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Interview with Gabriel Kuhn - http://london.indymedia.org/other_medias/9127

Q: Where did the perception of football as twenty-two cretins chasing a lump of leather come from? Was it always thus? How did it become the preserve of the working class?

    Gabriel Kuhn : Since football has always been popular with the masses, it has always had to endure the ridicule of the cultural elite. This is true for every pop cultural phenomenon. There also exists an intellectual arrogance, often expressed in the form of a general disdain for physical exercise and play. Needless to say, such attitudes are rather silly. We must not let them bother us. Who cares what self-appointed cultural and intellectual elites think?


who cares what arrogant pseudo-intellectuals, such as the one trolling this thread, think

author by leftypublication date Thu Jun 28, 2012 08:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"often expressed in the form of a general disdain for physical exercise and play. "

I don't have disdain for physical exercise and play at all. I never said PLAYING football was bad. I said it was good exercise. I encourage people to throw away the beer, the daily rag, turn off the television, leave the pub and go out and actually PLAY football. Get some oxygen into your fucking brains. That has merit.

It's the all pervasive stupid imported dumbed down soccer fan drunken yob culture that I have an issue with. the 30 pages of drivel in the newspaper, the 1/3 of every news broadcast filled with soccer crap. Football gossip, tv shows, celebrity scandal spew, cynically overpriced sweatshop football jerseys with booze adverts on them and the endless rehashed expensive video games for kids etc. It's everywhere you look. I'm sick of it, and we don't need to see more of it here too.

it's just bread and circuses...and cynical capitalist market creation and exploitation.

author by LOI Fanpublication date Fri Jun 29, 2012 09:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Good article. There is a full schedule of LOI tonight. I wonder what the attendance will be like. The snobbery on display here from some trolling posters is disgraceful. The revolution will not be led by internet trolls

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

..I haven't followed all that(busy times)...but ye olde football played a good part in the organising of black South African resistance to Apartheid...

But I agree with lefty..the commercialisation is toxic...and some of the fans have less neural content than the ball. But not as little as the average studio commentator.

author by leftypublication date Fri Jun 29, 2012 15:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Gabriel Kuhn evidently did not spend much of his time staring at the box watching football, reading the likes of the daily mail to find footy gossip, or drinking lager, getting pissed, looking for fights and singing on the terraces while his team lost.

No. He was busy studying hard for his primary degree then afterwards his Ph.D., then afterwards writing his books. In between he was outside training for his semi professional football career. Then there was all that journal writing and travelling around the world giving talks etc..

Not much time for pointless drunken football fandom there!!

Somewhat ironic, given he is being used to justify such behaviour eh? Sounds like he thinks working class yob culture is wonderful, but he doesn't really think it is SO wonderful that he actually indulges very much himself!! Too busy actually using his time "better" it seems.

Sounds rather like "the noble savage" attitude to me!!

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Fri Jun 29, 2012 16:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

is viva Italia..and Espana

could be a good final

author by Gearóid Ó Loingsighpublication date Sat Jun 30, 2012 16:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There is actually a correlation to the rise in interest of mass spectator sports and other stuff (even MTV) and people distracting themselves from oppressive or dire situations. The rise of Argentinian football went hand in hand with the rise of the Dictatorship in the 70s and early 80s. This does not mean watching football is mindless (a sport I am not particularly fond of). Mass entertainment as spectacle and even as a sort of opium does not make the sport in itself wrong. Understanding its social role is one thing. Yes, lots of pot bellied people watch athletic types run around. They should do some sport themselves, but just because they don't doesn't make them moronic. Singing while your team loses means you enjoyed watching the game, which is surely the purpose, or rather was the original purpose, before capitalism got its hands on sport and turned it into a money making spectacle where turning a buck and winning are the only important things. So singing even when you are losing (under the influence or otherwise) is actually in spirit with the purpose of taking part or watching sports. Actually quite mature and even noble.

Before the abuse starts. I don't like football and don't play it but I do take part in sports. I am working class and yes I am a trotskyist. Sorry to confound any stereotypes out there.

Enjoying a sport, that is what it is about. Not winning, not Roy Keane.

author by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite partypublication date Sat Jun 30, 2012 17:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

sport is synonymous with craic..a bit of sport..a bit of craic...its the professionalisation that layers on the pomposity and knuckle-dusting hyperseriousness.

C'mon Italy...or Spain...but fuck Kilkenny..they've had enough.

author by leftypublication date Sun Jul 01, 2012 13:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Since 2008, Kuhn has been collaborating on various projects with PM Press. Life Under the Jolly Roger: Reflections on Golden Age Piracy (2010), continues his work on piracy. Sober Living for the Revolution: Hardcore Punk, Straight Edge, and Radical Politics (2010), is an anthology documenting the radical currents within the straight edge hardcore scene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_edge_hardcore

"Straight edge is a subculture and subgenre of hardcore punk whose adherents refrain from using alcohol, tobacco, and other recreational drugs. It was a direct reaction to the sexual revolution, hedonism, and excess associated with punk rock. For some, this extends to not engaging in promiscuous sex, following a vegetarian or vegan diet, and not using caffeine or prescription drugs. The term was coined by the 1980s hardcore punk band Minor Threat in their song "Straight Edge".

Straight edge emerged amid the mid-'80s hardcore punk scene, in part as a reaction against the perceived "jock" element of the developing scene. Since then a wide variety of beliefs and ideas have been incorporated into the movement, including vegetarianism, animal rights, communism and Hare Krishna beliefs. In many parts of the United States and UK, straight edge is treated as a gang by law enforcement officials. A 2006 study suggested that the vast majority of people who identify as straight edge are nonviolent."


Straight edge is the way to go! ;-)

X.....X
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X.....X


I sincerely doubt many footy fans could qualify though because it actually takes discipline!!! In my experience, most have usually been meat eating beer guzzling pill popping chain smoking sex mad hedonist jocks. Tell me, does anyone around here know any "straight edge" footy fans?? ;-)

The fact is, booze and drug culture almost ruined the occupy movement from within and from without.
Booze and drugs are not compatible with revolutionary movements.

author by Rick Deckardpublication date Sun Jul 01, 2012 14:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nothing wrong with enjoying booze, you can do that without destroying yourself. Also nothing wrong with the sexual revolutiion as long as you take precautions. There is a danger of a new Puritanism emerging which will turn off everyone apart from a small pure hardcore which will not include the vast majority of hardcore fans.

Thinking of my own political milieu, practically all of us drink, occasionally get drunk, but it doesn't interfere with our ability to be involved in campaigns or even initiate them. A minority would be vegan/vegetarian.

You will take my bottle of Buckfast from my cold dead hands.

But i agree that booze & drugs should be banned from any sites of occupation. That has to be decided by the people involved though. In the past "leaders" have tried to hand down bans at various camps. That just won't work. The "leaders" are just told to fuck off and drink/drug use becomes the norm. Furst item on the agenda of any camp should be a discussion on making it booze/drug free.

author by Gearóid Ó Loingsighpublication date Sun Jul 01, 2012 14:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This thread is going onto another issue with Lefty's last comment. Many great revolutionaries of various currents were teetotalers including Connolly, Trotsky, Bakunin etc. Alcohol was a major issue for them. After the Russian revolution it was proposed that the Bolsheviks reestablish the old tsarist monopoly on the sale of vodka. Trotsky argued against it and proposed that they turn their attentions to setting up a chain of popular cinemas around Russia, a great idea.

However, Lefty's stuff is just moralism, don't drink booze, it is evil! It is reminiscent of the priests saying no sex, you will go to hell young man? And don't touch yourself, you will go blind!

There is nothing wrong with drinking nor with drugs. There is plenty wrong with how and when they are consumed and for what purpose, which was the real sticking point with the above mentioned revolutionaries, although they did not partake at all. For them alcohol dulled the consciousness of the working class, which is true. Other revolutionaries such as Che, were fond of a tipple now and again and his favourite drug was Cuban tobacco and mate (yes I know it is a leaf, but so is coca and it is a mind altering substance).

If you don't like alcohol don't drink it, if you don't like drugs don't do them and if your movement is being destroyed by irresponsible actions by people under the influence, kick them out.

author by leftypublication date Sun Jul 01, 2012 16:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I have no problems with you touching yourself whenever you like Gearoid! ;-)

author by leftypublication date Sun Jul 01, 2012 17:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"There is nothing wrong with drinking nor with drugs. There is plenty wrong with how and when they are consumed and for what purpose, which was the real sticking point with the above mentioned revolutionaries, although they did not partake at all."

Contrary to Gearoid's apparent ability to read my mind, and painting me in such broad strokes as some sort of simplistic knee jerk would be moral guardian, I would actually largely agree with him here. There IS nothing wrong with alcohol or drugs per se. The problem is in culture. Our culture is an infantilised culture where people are not educated to take responsibility for their actions. In such an infantilised culture, things like alcohol are very destructive.

This infantilised drink culture leaks into everything, including activist movements. Such movements should be drug/alcohol free if they are not to be totally ineffective and descend into farce.

Our relationship with alcohol and drugs need to change.

I am not against enjoying the occasional drink, spliff or cup of mushroom tea. It's your life. But when you are involved in serious political activities, in the current world, such things are just used to discredit your movement so you should abstain.

In fact I would be somewhat radical in that I don't actually agree with prohibition at all. Portugal has given some weight to this position recently. Prohibition is ineffective and just gives the state an excuse to spend more money on heavy handed policing. Often political, as in vietnam protests in the US. Marijuhana use was the most common excuse to arrest protesting hippies.

However, just because I'm anti prohibition, doesn't mean I have to have respect for stupid irresponsible people who can't control themselves and ruin it for everyone.

Straight edge is just voluntarily keeping yourself clean for the revolution man! ;-)

author by Rick Deckardpublication date Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Maybe being against the use of caffeine is based on outdated research or perhaps its just a random lifestyle choice.

Heres a thread with some coffee good news stories.

Coffee News.
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25087...ight=

author by independent republicanpublication date Mon Jul 02, 2012 18:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i have no major problem with football, not really my thing, but as far as im concerned if 'paddy' wants to go to europe and get pissed and enjoy himself and support his football team then fair play to him,my brother and my friend both went and had great craic.
my only problem with soccer in this country is the existence of two 'national' teams.

comments like

'One day we'll sober up and realise how stupid the europeans think we are.' are retarded. simple as that.

i think we'll sober up one day and realise how boring many europeans are.

whats wrong with singing athenry, a famine song, should we just bury that genocide that took place in our history too? i sense colonial shame here... ya they should sing the boys of kilmichael to, perhaps maybe even write a song about narrowwater ambush. its good to celebrate victories against crown forces no matter what period but to not sing something because its about a defeat is bullshit.

as for lefty

your comments about occupy are a denial of reality, occupy in ireland was out of touch and had its fair share of garda colaborators and apologists to say drugs ruined it, ignores the fact that occupy had crap politics.

come on ye boys in green....

author by Rick Deckardpublication date Mon Jul 02, 2012 19:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

No colonial mindset with me. Look at what I wrote: they should sing The Boys Of Kilmichael instead. You don't have to sing songs about defeat. Even when St Pauli fans sing about the murder of Luxembourg and Liebneckht they sing of how they will avenge their deaths.

I

author by leftypublication date Mon Jul 02, 2012 21:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

@I.R.:
coming on here and making sweeping unsubstantiated smearing allegations about occupy and calling other posters retarded breaks at least 3 guidelines of this site.

It's debatable who is retarded here!!

I'm very proud to be Irish, thats why it's all the more disappointing when a bunch of drunken football fans fulfil the usual stereotype.

@Deckhard:
Personally I have absolutely no problems with caffeine. That stuff was mainly just a quote from an article about straight edge from wikipedia outlining some of the wide range of views of people in the straight edge scene, from the very strict to just sensible.

As I said before, I'm actually anti prohibition of any kind. However living with drugs and without prohibition needs quite a different way of thinking to our current infantilised culture if it is to possibly work. We just can't handle either responsibly at present in Ireland it seems.

Prohibition is very costly, doesn't work at all, and provides a great excuse for social repression.

Drink, drugs and activism really don't mix well at all.

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