Armenians may get apology from Turkey

by Rufus Thu Jan 01, 2009 03:02

Edward, you appear to know as little about logical thinking as you do about anything else. You correctly state that the large scale movement of people from one part of the world to another usually has a detrimental effect on the original inhabitants. Yet you advocate the large scale movement of non Europeans into Europe in the name of diversity, whatever that is. You seem oblivious to the certain detrimental effect that this will have on the native European population. I see that you still have not commented on bringing more diversity to Africa, China, India etc. It seems that only Europe is to benefit from the joys of diversity while the aforementioned regions will keep their homogenous populations.
At no point did I suggest that Europeans are the chosen race as you incorrectly stated.
Your point about indigenous rainforest tribes being corrupted by contact with Europeans totally contradicts your belief that all races can be lumped together in a sort of happy clappy multicultural wonderland. Despite your wishful thinking, it would appear that most people are happier when they live in societies comprised of people of similar ethnic and cultural backgrounds as themselves. Do you think that those indigenous rainforest tribes would be enriched by having some Chinese, Nigerian or Turkish immigrants? Thought not.
As far as I am concerned, once you resorted to mention Hitler you lost any credibility. Anyone who is in any way concerned about immigration is by association dubbed a Nazi. Pathetic.
Finally, as for your no borders claptrap, you should remember the saying "Good fences make good neighbours".
Life is too short, goodbye.

by Edward Wed Dec 31, 2008 14:58

Rufus
You appear to know as little about history as you do about Turkey.
You say that European emigrants to the US, Australia, Canada etc. can be very easily assimilated into these countries because they are basically the same kind of people, with similar cultural backgrounds" and imply that this is because they are "Christian Europeans emigrating to other countries and continents which are peopled by the descendants of earlier emigrant Christian Europeans".
You seem to forget that these same so-called European Christians massacred and otherwise ethnically cleansed large areas of these so-call new lands, especially with regard to the Australian Aboriginees, and the indigenous native populations of North, Central and South America.
The whole point of the initial articles in these series is to highlight the injustices caused by acts of genocide. Europeans participated in the vast majority of those acts of genocide, especially those listed above, but also the genocide of the Herrero people of Namibia by Germany, the Holocaust of the Jews in Germany, and the devastation caused by European slavery and colonisation of African and parts of Asia. Even the non-European genocides in Cambodia, East Timor, and Rwanda has significant European causal factors.
The idea or belief that we Europeans are a chosen Christian civilised race is patently false and racist, given the atrocities that European, including at times Irish Europeans, have been involved in.
The indigenous tribes in the Brazilian rainforest are living in the most biologically diverse region in the world, now being destroyed by former European colonisers, and exploited by present day Europeans and others.

Hitler, Musolini and their cohorts were fans of pure ethnic states, and sought to achieve this by mass murder, yet the Germans and Italians and all other European "nations" including the Irish or Celts, are in reality a complex mix of multiple races that have migrated accross Europe since humanity became Homo Erectus. The myths that go to make up nationalist dreams are just that, myths, and very often lies concocted to support the interests of elite groups so that they can exploit the vulnerable.
Acknowledging the crimes of the past is a necessary first step towards enabling all of humanity to live together in this beautiful world, but we need to acknowledge that interdependent cooperation is the only way for humanity to survive without destroying our living environment.

This is why genocide recognition, acknowledgement and prevention is vital.

by Rufus Wed Dec 31, 2008 04:23

Comparing Christian Europeans emigrating to other countries and continents which are peopled by the descendants of earlier emigrant Christian Europeans in no way compares to Asian Muslim Turks emigrating to Christian (nominally anyway) European countries today. European emigrants to the US, Australia, Canada etc. can be very easily assimilated into these countries because they are basically the same kind of people, with similar cultural backgrounds. This is quite clearly not the case with Turkish immigrants in Europe. They are like a fish out of water. They are neither one thing or the other. They cling to their religion, language and culture, and even after three generations are still seen as Turkish rather than German or Belgian or Dutch. Whether this is because of their reluctance to integrate, or their host country's unwillingness to let them is irrelevant. To exacerbate this problem by allowing a country of 71 million (yes) Muslims to join the EU would be absolute madness.
I repeat my previous unanswered question. Why should Europe be the only place which is to benefit from the dubious pleasures of diversity? Why not Africa, India, South America, China etc. How about the Indian tribes in the Brazilian rainforest who are completely lacking in diversity? You must feel really sorry for them, they have never even heard of Turkey.
Fortunately, only a few loonies want a world without borders.

by Edward Horgan Tue Dec 30, 2008 19:07

The war with Azerbaijan has impoverished Armenia and crippled its economy. Unlike Azerbaijan,, Armenia has no oil, and few natural resources apart from its beautiful scenery. The people of Armenia urgenlty need a permanent peace settlement with Azerbaijan

Genocide Memorial in Yerevan Armenia, Jan 08

Abandoned and destroyed Azeri village, and destroyed railway now within Armenian borders

N/E Armenia close to Azerbaijan and Georgia borders

Prime Minister Serzh Sargsyan, now President campaigning Feb 08

by peter Tue Dec 30, 2008 15:12

I'm not so sure about Turkey joining the EU but I've never given it a thought. Turkey should recognise and apologise for the Armenian genocide immediately

by Paul Tue Dec 30, 2008 14:55

Edward I couldn't have put it better myself.
On the Turkish recognition of the ''great catastrophe'' or the genocide, it is great. If they fully recognise it and their human rights improve a bit there should be no reason why Turkey should not be integrated into the E.U.

Paul

by Edward Horgan Tue Dec 30, 2008 13:25

Dear citizen Rufus,
First of all the population of Turkey is just over 71 million, not "90-100 million". Germany has the largest ethnic Turkish population with about 2.5 million. Most of these were "recruited" by Germany as cheap workers due to the shortage of German manpower, due to casualties during World War Two, initiated by Germany. Less that half a million of Turks living in Germany are German citizens due to very restrictive German citizenship laws. While these were eased somewhat in 2000, Germany still does not allow for dual citizenship. Integration of Turks into German society and to German citzenship has been very restricted mainly due to German ethnic opposition to such integration, and not Turkish reluctance to integrate.
There are not "large numbers of Turkish people" living in other European countries. France has a large number of ethnic Algerians due to its disastrous colonial war in Algeria which cost over one million Algerian lives.
Far larger numbers Europeans including Irish people migrated to the US, UK, Australia and elsewhere. Why is it OK for Europeans to migrate, but not for non-Europeans to migrate into Europe? Defining the boundaries of Europe is a pointless and damaging exercise. We need to be removing borders, physically and mentally.
Opposition to the Lisbon Treaty should not be based on racist criteria. Creating a so-called Christian European Superstate as many Lisbon treaty supporters might wish will damage the vast majority of European people and will cause untold damage to all those who are excluded on the periphery of Europe. We need a wider, more diverse Europe committed to promoting interdependence between all human society, and not a militarised superstate committed to imposign slavish dependency on the peoples of Asia and Africa.

Edward

by Rufus Tue Dec 30, 2008 04:31

Why should the belated discourse by some Turks on the obvious genocide committed by their country on Armenians have any bearing on the proposed entry of Turkey into the EU? Turkey is not a European country and never will be. There are a large number of Turkish people living in Europe already and they have completely failed to integrate into the countries they now live in, instead creating mini Islamic areas in these countries. The last thing that Europe needs right now is to allow a country of 90-100 million Muslims access to its borders. The Governments of Europe, for reasons best known to themselves, want Turkey to join the EU. The people of Europe do not want this to happen. If the Lisbon Treaty is ratified the ordinary citizens will have no further say in this matter. Another good reason to vote No to Lisbon.
By the way, I only ever hear demands for Europe to be more diverse. Never Africa or Asia or South America or China or India. Or Turkey for that matter. Why?

by john mck Mon Dec 29, 2008 22:29

I think this is great. Edward, your above statement is great too. I'm excited about this, I thought it was never going to be recognised and forgotten in history.
HAPPY DAYS

by Edward Mon Dec 29, 2008 20:31

Thank you for your comment Shaqa.
This issue of recognition of the Armenian genocide also has broader implications for Turkey and Europe as a whole and for Turkish membership of the European Union. Turkish acceptance and acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide will have significant implications for human rights in Turkey and improvement in human rights is a prerequisit for Turkish entry into the EU. On the other hand, Turkish entry into the EU is also very important for Europe as a whole. The diversity that Turkey will bring to the European Union is essential to prevent the EU becoming a dangerous inward-looking superstate. Turkey should become the bridge linking Europe to the broader Islamic community, and helping to create linkages with the Caucuses region and hopefully also opening doors that could see Russia becomming a closer partner with the rest Europe.
Big journeys must begin with small steps.

by Pete Mon Dec 29, 2008 20:25

It should be unquestionably called a genocide. The Turks say because the Armenians were being deported it wasn't genocide? What a farce

by Shaqa Mon Dec 29, 2008 15:07

It is a shame we cant call it what it was.... Genocide. I'm happy to see this though. Some good news from the middle east in the middle of such dark times

by Edward Horgan Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:55

I spent two months in Armenia in Jan and Feb this year monitoring the elections there with the OSCE. While the election process fell short of the democratic norms in some respects, the will of the people was mainly reflected in the results.
The Armenian genocide is an almost forgotten shameful episode in Middle Eastern history. Some estimates of the numbers killed are as high as one and a half million. In addition to the massacres the Armenian people were "ethnically cleansed" from large areas of central and eastern Turkey. The best account of this genocide I have read is Chapter 10, The First Holocaust, in Robert Fisk's book, The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East.
I also visited the genocide memorial centre in Yerevan the capital of present day Armenia in February. It reminded me of my visit to Bergen Belsen concentration camp in 1984.
The state of Armenia is now an independent country landlocked between Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Iran. It used be a republic within the former USSR. Stalin treated the Armenian people far better than the people of most of the other republics and regions, perhaps because of his neighbouring Georgian origins. As a result, there is still considerable nostalgia in Armenia for the former USSR. In historical context, Stalin probably succeeded in saving the remnants of the Armenian people from total anihilation by protecting them within the Soviet Union. (I never thought I would find myself praising Stalin, a mass-murderer of hugh proportions in other regions). After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Armenia and Azerbaijan fought a vicious war over an area called Nagorno Karabakh which has an Armenian majority within Azerbaijan. Armenia has effectively annexed Nagorno Karabakh and the intervening territory between it and Armenia. This conflict is still unresolved and occasional shooting still occurs across the borders and cease-fire lines.
The developments within Turkey to recognise the Armenian genocide described the article above are importance, but could be exaggerated. Genocide denial in Turkey is deeply rooted, and has many vested interests. Just as in the German ethnic cleansing and mass murder of Jews, and the more recent ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by the state of Israel, many individuals and groups within Turkey have benefitted from the murder of Armenians, and the theft or reallocation of their properties and lands.
In order to support those within Turkey who advocate that Turkey should officially recognise the Armenian Genocide, the Irish Government and both houses of the Oireachtas should formally recognise this genicide.
So far about 22 countries have recognised the Armenian genocide, as have the European Parliament. Those who have not recognised it include the United States, the UK, Ireland and Israel.
A campaign should now be undertaken to initiate the process of Irish recognition of the Armenian genocide perpetrated in Turkey in 1915. Ireland should also become invovled with the UN and the OSCE (Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe) in negotiating a final peace agreement between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Those interested in supporting this issues should contact me at edward.horgan@ul.ie