New Events

National

no events posted in last week

Blog Feeds

Anti-Empire

Anti-Empire

offsite link Putin Is a Serial Decision-Making Procra... Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:32 | Anti-Empire

offsite link If Putin Was a 5th Column Traitor, What ... Mon Oct 03, 2022 08:47 | Anti-Empire

offsite link Fall of Liman Shows the Trajectory of Wa... Sun Oct 02, 2022 17:21 | Anti-Empire

offsite link Defender of Liberal Order No More, Russi... Sat Oct 01, 2022 16:03 | Anti-Empire

offsite link Nord Stream Explosion Removes the Chance... Wed Sep 28, 2022 22:24 | Anti-Empire

Anti-Empire >>

Human Rights in Ireland
A Blog About Human Rights

offsite link UN human rights chief calls for priority action ahead of climate summit Sat Oct 30, 2021 17:18 | Human Rights

offsite link 5 Year Anniversary Of Kem Ley?s Death Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:34 | Human Rights

offsite link Poor Living Conditions for Migrants in Southern Italy Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:14 | Human Rights

offsite link Right to Water Mon Aug 03, 2020 19:13 | Human Rights

offsite link Human Rights Fri Mar 20, 2020 16:33 | Human Rights

Human Rights in Ireland >>

Lockdown Skeptics

The Daily Sceptic

offsite link Pfizer Sponsors Marvel Comic Urging People to Get Jabbed Fri Oct 07, 2022 17:30 | Toby Young
Pfizer has partnered with Marvel to produce a comic urging people to get their autumn boosters. This kind of propaganda, sugar-coating state-approved messages, used to be the preserve of communist regimes. Not any more.
The post Pfizer Sponsors Marvel Comic Urging People to Get Jabbed appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link J.K. Rowling Brands Nicola Sturgeon ?Destroyer of Women?s Rights? Over Transgender ?Self-ID? Law Fri Oct 07, 2022 15:35 | Will Jones
J.K. Rowling has branded Nicola Sturgeon a "destroyer of women?s rights" over Scotland's transgender 'self-ID' law as the SNP leader implied Rowling was not a "real feminist".
The post J.K. Rowling Brands Nicola Sturgeon “Destroyer of Women?s Rights” Over Transgender ‘Self-ID’ Law appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link Vaccinating the Under-50s is an Utter Waste of up to £1 Billion of Taxpayers? Money Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:33 | Mark Ellse
Denmark has ceased Covid vaccination for most under-50s, but the UK has not, meaning it is offering vaccines to 32m additional, low-risk people at a potential cost of £1bn. This is an utter waste of scarce public funds.
The post Vaccinating the Under-50s is an Utter Waste of up to £1 Billion of Taxpayers’ Money appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link Why Did So Many Intellectuals and Medics Refuse to Speak Out? Fri Oct 07, 2022 07:00 | Jeffrey A. Tucker
Think about people who've been tellers of truth. Very often, they were retired. They wrote for an independent website or Substack. They don?t have bosses or career paths. It?s only these people who will say what?s true.
The post Why Did So Many Intellectuals and Medics Refuse to Speak Out? appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link News Round-Up Fri Oct 07, 2022 02:03 | Will Jones
A summary of all the most interesting stories in the past 24 hours that challenge the prevailing orthodoxy about the virus and the vaccines, the ?climate emergency? and the supposed moral defects of Western civilisation.
The post News Round-Up appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

Lockdown Skeptics >>

Voltaire Network
Voltaire, international edition

offsite link US Supreme Court to decide on responsibilities of social networks Thu Oct 06, 2022 04:52 | en

offsite link American-Chinese rivalry in the metaverse Tue Oct 04, 2022 16:41 | en

offsite link The United States declares war on Russia, Germany, the Netherlands and France, b... Tue Oct 04, 2022 07:00 | en

offsite link Vladimir Putin at Together For Ever Concert , by Vladimir Putin Fri Sep 30, 2022 07:46 | en

offsite link US government instructs its nationals to leave Russia immediately Thu Sep 29, 2022 06:50 | en

Voltaire Network >>

The Greens go into Government

category national | worker & community struggles and protests | other press author Friday June 22, 2007 00:13author by John McAnulty - Socialist Democracy Report this post to the editors

The Greens go into Government

‘Asking the Green Party to go into office with Fianna Fail really does not take account of the real world,’ Trevor Sargent, Green Party leader, May 22nd

‘Asking the Green Party to go into office with Fianna Fail really does not take account of the real world,’ Trevor Sargent, Green Party leader, May 22nd

After Green Party TD Ciaran Cuffe described a deal with Fianna Fail as a ‘deal with the devil’ it might be thought shocking that they have just voted to make Bertie Ahern Taoiseach. Nevertheless the decision by the Green Party to support the formation of a Fianna Fail government and enter coalition with it is not surprising. It is however very instructive. In the same week it was revealed that the outgoing FF government was still not be able to provide clean and safe drinking water to the people of Galway, and an Environmental Protection Agency report recorded that across the State water quality has fallen significantly, the Green Party has decided to put back into power the people responsible. In fact Green Party commitment has been procured to ensure that this government lasts a full term.

Full Story

http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/Recent....html

author by Etain - The Green Partypublication date Tue Jun 26, 2007 13:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

We may be able to retrieve something positive from the mess we have got ourselves into. Being a reasonable person, I say give the newly appointed government time to look into the proposed legislations.

As regards the M3 and Tara, all is not lost, Im sure there must be someway of looking into the Environmental Impact Statement, I refer to the following

European Communities (Environmental Impact Assesment (Motorways)Regulations, 1988 (S.I. No.221 of 1988)

These regulations incorporate the requirements fo the EC EIA Directive (85/337/EEC) into the motorway scheme proceedure in the Local Government (Roads and Motorways) Act, 1974.

It is up to us all as ordinary citizens to make our presence felt, by lobbying, writing letters of objection.

Related Link: http://www.greenparty.ie
author by Green Stalkerpublication date Tue Jun 26, 2007 15:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

‘Asking the Green Party to go into office with Fianna Fail really does not take account of the real world,’ Trevor Sargent, Green Party leader, May 22nd

After Green Party TD Ciaran Cuffe described a deal with Fianna Fail as a ‘deal with the devil’


Do you have sources for those quotes please?

author by d'otherpublication date Tue Jun 26, 2007 23:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The quote putting coalition with Fianna Fail as on a par with a "deal with the devil" is from Cuffe's blog over at http://cuffestreet.blogspot.com/

Its the post titled "it's good to be back."

I'm sure the other quote is just as traceable though it might be wise for the authors to footnote the next time round.

author by Jim O'Sullivanpublication date Wed Jun 27, 2007 08:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

First the betrayal and now propaganda.

Etain - The Green Party, tries this on,

"We may be able to retrieve something positive from the mess we have got ourselves into. Being a reasonable person, I say give the newly appointed government time to look into the proposed legislations."

Sargeant and co did not just agree to vote for Bertie or support him in government in a piecemeal, issue by issue manner. In return for a few pieces of silver, they have agreed a Programme for Government, which is the FF/PD manifesto rewritten-nothing less. The Greens have agreed to support FF/PD to implement this programme which is completely at odds with everything they told the electorate they stood for.

And then this,

"It is up to us all as ordinary citizens to make our presence felt, by lobbying, writing letters of objection."

Need I remind you Etain that we did try to make our presence felt, we went out and voted for the Greens in the hope that the sitting government would not be returned. We did our bit, we refused to give them the numbers to return to power. It was the Greens and a few ragbag independents that then stabbed the electorate in the back and thwarted our efforts. Writting letters will achieve nothing.

Take for example the co-location plan. This will profoundly change our society and will place inequity at the heart of how we deal with each other. Those with money will receive the best while those with little will have to wait. The two tier system will be copper fastened and it will be extremely difficult to untangle that should this government get 5 years to grow the for-profit sector. There is great unease in the community generally regarding this and this was underlined by a poll taken by the Irish Times (result published on 25/6), which showed that 68% of those asked said that co-location should not proceed. Harney and Ahearn have no intention of paying any attention to that because they have obviously given committments to their friends that the Health Sector will be opened up for exploitation by their speculator friends. And the Greens are now lying very close to those speculators in the same bed with FF/PD's.

So stop fooling yourself or trying to defend the indefensible Etain, you and every person that voted for the Greens has been had.

author by Sharon. - Individual .publication date Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

........of the Hill of Tara ?
(More here - http://11sixtynine.blogsome.com/2007/06/26/green-gold-b...uits/)

Sharon.

Green(s) mark the spot .
Green(s) mark the spot .

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Green Party holds 6 Dáil seats not 80. The reason being that the vast majority of the electorate voted for " business-as-usual". I hate that fact but it is a fact nonetheless. I firmly believe that the Greens have entered Government to make a positive difference. They would have expected all this-understandable-criticism. I believe there is a foot in the door now. I have a lot of faith in the GP and I urge people to be suportive.
Time is running short on a lot of green issues and it is only in Government that the Greens can bring some influence to bear.
Irish politicians and indeed the electorate needs education on environmental issues. At least there is a strong green voice in Govt.
Don't read too much into the agreed programme. Since when have programmes for Govt been fully implemented.

author by Sharon . - Individualpublication date Fri Jun 29, 2007 13:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Rational Ecologist !

" I firmly believe that the Greens have entered Government to make a positive difference. ....time is running short on a lot of green issues and it is only in Government that the Greens can bring some influence to bear.... at least there is a strong green voice in Govt...."

A 'strong' voice not listened to.....
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfojkfeyoj/rss2/

......is of no real benefit .

Sharon.

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by Jim O'Sullivanpublication date Fri Jun 29, 2007 18:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors



"Don't read too much into the agreed programme. Since when have programmes for Govt been fully implemented."

Rational Ecologist, Mary Harney has not waited a second, she's bang in there flogging the family silver as we mutter and splutter with no regard whatever for the sensibilities of the Greens.
Once again, read my lips-get a copy of the Programme for Government to which the Greens signed up to and ingest it slowly. Whatever about some of it not becoming practise, one thing is for sure, Green policies will never see the light of day because they don't appear in the programme and therefore will never even come up at cabinet meetings. So stop kidding yourself. This guff about influencing from within was used to give those that attended the special conference a reason for supporting the wish of the leaders because they came back from their week in discussions with FF with nothing else. The ordinary members of the Green Party are nice trusting people, unfortunately. They were as lambs to the slaughter.

author by Padraicpublication date Sat Jun 30, 2007 02:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I find it extraordinary how the Greens play the pragmatist card on all of this yet still try to find some sort of credence within their own political objectives to dismiss all criticism of their sell out.

It may take 5 years but the truth will out and the Greens will be exposed as expedient wanna bes and northing more

author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

By no means am I fully comfortable with the Greens being in Government with FF. Let me make that 100% clear. I despise FF and what they stand for, however, the Greens only secured 6 seats, so to expect their footprint to appear too large on the programme for Govt is very naive.
The best thing to do is for you disaffected folk to join the party and make life very uncomfortable for those who have taken " Bertie's shilling". You cannot change things from without. Get in and vote for Patricia McKenna in the leadership contest. Now that would be constructive and mature.
If you want to feel good do something that will have results.
I understand the anger of all those who have addressed my posting, however, we have to be smart.
Swell the ranks of the party and force those at the top to listen.

author by Sharon . - Individual .publication date Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

HI Rational Ecologist !

"... the Greens only secured 6 seats, so to expect their footprint to appear too large on the programme for Govt is very naive."
Powerless , then , from 'inside' ....

" You cannot change things from without. "
...and from 'outside' , too .

"Swell the ranks of the party and force those at the top to listen."
And be 'used' as a foot-soldier by those whose political opinions you hope to change ?
No thanks .

Sharon.

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Tue Jul 03, 2007 13:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I am dissapointed that my opinions weren't taken a bit more seriously. I am not suggesting that people stop becoming involved at grassroots level. I was being practical in suggesting that people get their voice heard where it matters rather than waxing on endlessly in fora where they are merely " preaching to the converted ".
Join the Greens and scream until your voice is heard and tell your friends and colleagues to do the same! If that fails then try plan B and feel morally superior.

author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Tue Jul 03, 2007 14:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If they do try to proceed with the M3 through Tara then I'll see you all there. It can"t go ahead. Target Dempsey. He seems to be " driving " this to keep his constituents happy.
Vote Patricia.
I am not a member of GP but I am considering it in order to vote for Patricia.
A huge upsurge of new members would scare the shite out of the top echelons of the party and keep them " focused "
Don't be too quick to dismiss this idea..........please!

author by Sharon . - Individual.publication date Tue Jul 03, 2007 16:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Rational Ecologist !
" I was being practical in suggesting that people get their voice heard where it matters rather than waxing on endlessly in fora where they are merely " preaching to the converted ".
I believe those that voted for the Green Party in the last election were of the opinion that that was what they were doing .

"Join the Greens and scream until your voice is heard and tell your friends and colleagues to do the same! "
The Green Party members that sit at State Cabinet level cannot get their 'voice heard' , yet you would have us believe that new members who join the Party can somehow change that situation ?

"If they do try to proceed with the M3 through Tara then I'll see you all there. It can"t go ahead. Target Dempsey. He seems to be " driving " this to keep his constituents happy."
"Target Dempsey" ?
What a coincidence that Eamon Ryan is pushing much the same line -
"Tara was a decision of the last Government and "this is a new Government"..."
(http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfojkfeyoj/rss2/)
Is that how the Green Party intend to 'excuse' their broken political promises - 'nothing to do with us -blame the last crowd' ?

" Vote Patricia.
I am not a member of GP but I am considering it in order to vote for Patricia.
A huge upsurge of new members would scare the shite out of the top echelons of the party and keep them " focused "
Don't be too quick to dismiss this idea..........please!"

The Green Party leadership have themselves , by their recent disgraceful conduct , 'dismissed' that belief already . They should instead , I believe , "focus" their attention on "scaring the sh*te" out of Fianna Fail by signalling their intent to collapse this administration unless they can enact the pre-election pledges they gave to their electorate . And then be prepared to do so , if necessary .

Sharon.

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Wed Jul 04, 2007 13:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Ok. What's your suggestion? What's your vision? This Govt collapses and Enda Kenny is leader. Now that's revolutionary!
Can you provide me with what you see as answer to this problem. Provide me with an alternatve. I think we are in agreement on the issues, however, I would like to see your manifesto.
I am not being smart. I'd like to see a genuine alternative, not forgetting that FF/FG/Lab still dominate Irish politics and that socialists are greens are marginalised.

author by Sharon - Individualpublication date Wed Jul 04, 2007 18:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

....by withdrawing from this corrupt Administration .

Hi Rational Ecologist !

"Revolutionary" ? To give a political commitment , verbally , in writing and repeatedly , then ditch same as soon an an Office , staff and 'prestige' is offered : is that what you consider 'revolutionary' ?

You would be better employed in directing your quite-justified disappointment and annoyance at being let down at those who let you down , not at those who highlight the fact that you have been let down .

Sharon.

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by rosapublication date Wed Jul 04, 2007 20:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The theme of much of the comment in this discussion is the bitter disapointment of the fringe left at the Greens going into government with capitalist parties.

The fringe just doesn't get it. But then, it wouldn't be the "fringe" if it did!

The Greens are not a socialist party - (nor a specifically capitalist one either) so it is rather unfair to accuse them of letting down people with whom the Greens have little in common and owe nothing to.

The Green movement is radical but not socialist. Its policies on the environment and governance are probably only viable within a capitalist liberal-democratic framework because the rigid top-down authoritanarianism which is an inherent characteristic of societies subjected to marxist economics is anathema to the Green project.

The sad thing for the fringe left is that having seen its analysis and policies utterly rejected by the electorate, it has codded itself into believing that the green vote is somehow really a vote for socialism.

author by Sharon . - Individual .publication date Wed Jul 04, 2007 23:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Rosa !

" The theme of much of the comment in this discussion is the bitter disapointment of the fringe left at the Greens going into government with capitalist parties."
Not so : the majority of the comments on this thread are in connection with the Green Party having so blatantly dumped their pre-election pledges .

"The fringe just doesn't get it. But then, it wouldn't be the "fringe" if it did!"
It wasn't all that long ago (a matter of weeks , only!) that the Green Party were on that 'fringe' !

"The Greens are not a socialist party - (nor a specifically capitalist one either) so it is rather unfair to accuse them of letting down people with whom the Greens have little in common and owe nothing to."
A poor attempt at a 'spin' , Rosa !
It is the people that voted for the Green Party that feel let down , as is evident from this thread .

"The Green movement is radical but not socialist. Its policies on the environment and governance are probably only viable within a capitalist liberal-democratic framework because the rigid top-down authoritanarianism which is an inherent characteristic of societies subjected to marxist economics is anathema to the Green project."
None of which was mentioned in their electorate literature ie 'Vote for us if you are concerned about Tara , Shell etc' . People did so , Rosa , only to have the 'small print' thrown at them afterwards .

"The sad thing for the fringe left is that having seen its analysis and policies utterly rejected by the electorate, it has codded itself into believing that the green vote is somehow really a vote for socialism."
Or is it that the electorate 'had codded itself into believing that the green vote was somehow really a vote' that would make a difference ?

Sharon.

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Sharon. Thanks for your comments, however, you did not answer my question in relation to an alternative. Do we need to abandon the Dáil?
We are at a crisis point as regards Global Warming. That is a fact. What are we going to do about it?
Please offer something constructive rather than engaging in some form of intellectual Wimbledon.
I am largely in agreement with your points and I am greatly conflicted on the FF/GP pact.

author by Green Fingerspublication date Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Greens should pull out. They can effect no change in Government that would not have been forced on the Government by the EU anyway.

This is the intellectual lie the Greens have been peddling as a cover up for their sell out. That they place the environment and threats like 'global warming' above mere politics.

FF has no commitment to the environment. IBEC won’t let them.

Environmental change will be brought about by enforcing international treaties like Kyoto.

Either the Greens have deluded themselves that they can do better for the world than Kyoto by going into government with a shower of gangsters or they are aware of the duplicity of their capitulation and are in fact indulging in Intellectual Wimbledon themselves.

The fact that the have become unrepentant apologists fro FF in the past weeks really speaks volumes.

author by ex greenpublication date Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

sharon is right . I voted for the greens for Tara and because of whats going on in mayo and feel disgusted with myself now .
I'll know better next time but thats no consolation to me now. the posters here who are trying to excuse the uturns have more to answer for than sharon and the others like her who are not afraid to call a spade a spade .
Once bitten twice shy.

author by Sharon. - Individual.publication date Thu Jul 05, 2007 13:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Rational Ecologist !

"Hi Sharon. Thanks for your comments, however, you did not answer my question in relation to an alternative. Do we need to abandon the Dáil?"
I have already stated my opinion on that issue (twice , so far) : see this thread at these timelines -
Céad Iúil 04, 2007 18:50
Máirt Iúil 03, 2007 16:36

"We are at a crisis point as regards Global Warming. That is a fact. What are we going to do about it?"
The Green Party are ineffectual at solving 'home-grown' conservation issues and I , for one , have no reason to believe that they will not be bought-off again (by Fianna Fail or one of the other professional political outfits) in regards to the 'pledges' they have made regarding global warming . Their word is no longer their bond .

"Please offer something constructive rather than engaging in some form of intellectual Wimbledon."
"Constructive" ? Is it "constructive" on your part to say that you are "largely in agreement" with me regarding this issue whilst , at the same time , calling for support for the Green Party and then stating that you are "greatly conflicted on the Fianna Fail/Green Party pact" ?
Get off the fence , 'Rational Ecologist' : at the moment you are all over the place in relation to this issue .

Sharon.

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Thu Jul 05, 2007 14:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Sharon.Let's for a moment assume that you are 100% right on your attitude to the Green Party. Putting this aside, can you offer a few suggestions on how we deal with the issues(Tara, Corrib, Global Warming. Peak Oil.) I am sincerely looking for some ideas?
You seem to be very good at de-constructing other people's point of view, however, you need to suggest some practical ideas.
If I seem a bit " all over the place " it's perhaps because that's how I feel.
What we really need is a mass movement to deal with these issues. Do you think this likely?
Don't give me links and please desist from cutting and pasting other people's words. It is unecessary.
Let's hear some of your words on this matter.
Lets assume all 166 TDs have been abducted by aliens( Not a tragedy by any means!)
Kyoto is only a tiny start and is not enough!
I am trying to be constructive.
Thanks

author by Sharon. - Individual .publication date Thu Jul 05, 2007 14:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Rational Ecologist !

" Sharon.Let's for a moment assume that you are 100% right on your attitude to the Green Party. Putting this aside, can you offer a few suggestions on how we deal with the issues(Tara, Corrib, Global Warming. Peak Oil.) I am sincerely looking for some ideas? "
That "attitude" (in relation to the conduct of the now-elected Green Party)
is not exclusive to me - others on this thread (and elsewhere) feel the same . In regards to suggestions , you made a good one yourself - " What we really need is a mass movement to deal with these issues. " The disgraceful conduct of the leadership of the Green Party has further damaged that possibility ie 'they say one thing in opposition but don't follow it through in power' . Excuse the language , please , but the Green Party has s**t on its own doorstep .

"You seem to be very good at de-constructing other people's point of view, however, you need to suggest some practical ideas."
Only when that other point of view is built on sand . Practical ideas - such as those already in use (pickets , protests , bringing the issue to a wider [global] audience etc) - should be continued and where/when feasible , increased . It is not 'practical' to campaign long and hard on this (or any other issue) and then do a u-turn on it for reasons of political self-gain , as has happened here .

"If I seem a bit " all over the place " it's perhaps because that's how I feel."
Why so ? Eamon Ryan , the new Green man in charge , is 'not all over the place' on this issue ie 'Mr Ryan said the decision to construct the motorway alongside the Hill of Tara was a decision of the last Government and "this is a new Government". ' Do you agree with Mr Ryan in this instance (thereby agreeing with all that such an agreement would entail) or do you not agree with him ? It has to be one or the other . As stated previously - "Get off the fence" .

"What we really need is a mass movement to deal with these issues. Do you think this likely? "
It is less likely now , following the Green Party u-turn , as potential supporters will naturally be disillusioned by the actions of Mr Ryan and company .

"Don't give me links and please desist from cutting and pasting other people's words. It is unecessary."
The links I posted (apart from my usual signature link) were in connection with the Green Party's u-turn on this issue and therefore relevant . The only cut and paste I have done is to re-position the questions/comments you put to me , and I then reply to same .

" Let's hear some of your words on this matter."
Certainly . All my 'words' on this issue , in this thread , are published by myself , 'Sharon' , and listed under my name at the beginning of each relevant post . Whose 'words' did you think you were replying to ?

"Kyoto is only a tiny start and is not enough!"
If those that proposed the Kyoto Protocol as a possible solution were then , on obtaining power , to dis-own them for political expediency , how would you feel ?

Sharon .

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by W. Finnertypublication date Thu Jul 05, 2007 14:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

While we're waiting for Sharon's "words", mine would be: "The Aarhus Convention Agreement" - which, as far as I know, the entire population of our Oireachtas (i.e. Parliament), and our legal profession, have been unlawfully ignoring since the Republic of Ireland signed this agreement in 1998.

The Government has, and has had for the past nine years or so, a well-defined Constitutional responsibility to have this United Nations international agreement "laid before Dail Eireann". Anybody in doubt regarding this point, should please read Article 29.5.1 of Bunreacht na hEireann (Constitution of the Republic of Ireland).

Now is a really GREAT opportunity for the Greens to arrange for "ratification" (in Dail Eireann) of this extremely useful and benign international environmental agreement, which is possibly the most important international agreement of its kind EVER produced, and which almost all the nations of Europe have by now ratified.

There's still not a word about it (almost) in the Republic of Ireland though, which is something that very badly needs to be looked into in my view.

After all, Green Party Leader Hopeful John Gormley is NOW the Cabinet Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and the Aarhus Convention Agreement is - and always has been - an absolute gift to all who are genuinely interested in protecting the environment by democratic means (of the very highest quality).

I do hope all this is "constructive"?

Related link: http://www.europeancourtofhumanrightswilliamfinnerty.co...l.htm

author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Aarhus is included in the programme for Government and is extremely important. I myself have highlighted this to the European Commission. Every Irish person needs to be made aware of Aarhus. A publicity camapign is essential.
Sharon, you still refuse to provide practical policies. It's all to easy to criticise and tear down( I undersatnd your anger at GP), however, real maturity is to provide solutions.
I still await a meaningful response.

author by Green Fingerspublication date Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

No, what you want is for her to do your thinking for you.

The Greens sold out.
Butter it up ant you want but that is what happened.

Deal with it.

author by rosapublication date Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Greens are now in a position to directly influence (in a manner proportionate to their mandate from the people) legislation and governance.

Had they remained outside, they would have no influence whatsoever on either. They would then be in exactly in the same position as the SP, SWP, and the other members of the Discontented Teenagers Faction who rail forever from their bedsits waiting for the revolution to happen. It is like the castaway on a desert island boasting of his chastity.

author by Karlpublication date Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Having already seen that the Greens have zero influence whatsoever on any issue of any importance, whether Shannon, co-location, Tara, Rossport or anything else, it's a bit much for Green supporters to be still hawking this shrill "discontented teenagers" line around Indymedia. The Greens have shown themselves to be staggeringly immature, lacking the most basic understanding of how politics works, they were taken for fools by FF and rightly so.

author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Rosa's comments are an unhelpful aside. People are entitled to express their concerns and indeed I share some of them. What we need is an open and mature discussion. I would like to see some more concrete suggestions form Sharon but I appreciate her opinions so I wan't to distance myself from Rosa's words. Your( Rosa ) patronising attitude to teenagers is ageist and ignorant.

author by MichaelY - iawmpublication date Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Rosa,

Your disrespectful comments re: many many people who fight and struggle in communities and workplaces, in Shannon and in Rossport and in the streets of our cities reflects to a T the arrogance of the T-Shock who advised the other day "the moaners and the rest" to go and top ourselves off. That's the 'man of the people' that your Green votes have put in place and will support until he messes with you - by then it'd be too late.
You can get back, of course, to your senses and amplify for our instruction the kind of areas, the type of policies, that your ministers will influence, or put in place, "from the inside".....for it's a bit hazy so far. To say the least.
Forget about the support for terror re:Shannon, forget the M3 and Tara, forget Shell.....what's left? Prey tell Green realist and pragmatist!!

author by Fintan Lane - Irish Socialist Network and AWIpublication date Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

That sounds great, but it's not quite an accurate analogy.

The Green Party are not a pressure group or some sort of official opposition within the government; rather, they are part of the government, which makes them equally responsible for everything this government does. That's hardly a pleasant outlook when one looks at the dominant element within this arrangement - the right-wing Fianna Fail party and its extreme neo-liberal sidekicks in the rump PDs. This is a markedly right-wing government.

Collective cabinet responsibility means that the Green ministers are equally responsible for EVERYTHING this government does. A participating party cannot opt out of responsibility on decisions they find troubling.

As an anti-war activist, what strikes me most is the reality that the erstwhile anti-war Greens are now part of a government that is practically assisting the Bush killing machine at Shannon. We said it about Fianna Fail and the PDs in the past, and it now stands true for the Green Party: they have blood on their hands!

What is happening at Shannon should be enough to bring down any government, but the Greens signed on in the full knowledge that the facilitation of the US war machine would continue. In my opinion, this is an issue about which no genuine anti-war activist could possibly compromise. Gormley and Ryan clearly think otherwise.

author by Gpublication date Fri Jul 06, 2007 13:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

“Non-cooperation with evil is a sacred duty”
-Mahatma Gandhi (but was he a Green?)

author by Sharon . - Individual .publication date Fri Jul 06, 2007 18:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

......will share the blame.

Hi Rational Ecologist !

"Sharon, you still refuse to provide practical policies. It's all to easy to criticise and tear down( I undersatnd your anger at GP), however, real maturity is to provide solutions. I still await a meaningful response. "

By "meaningful" it is now obvious that you mean a response which suits you ie which you can 'go along with' , as I and others have already supplied what we consider practical solutions - start with threatening to collapse this blind , greedy and self-serving administration unless the leadership of same listen to the concerns of those that elected part of it (the 'green' part) : put a time-line on it and grab as much publicity as possible between now and then . And then , if necessary , follow through and withdraw from the administration . As things stand , 'Rational Ecologist' , the Green Party are being exposed as either useless or 'u-turners' in relation to their pre-election pledges and , as such , have nothing to lose morally or politically (...except for the so-called 'prestige' , perhaps ?) in refusing to continue acting as a safety crutch for the political gangsters they are now propping up .
Otherwise , you may start preparing a script now for your grandchildren to inform them of the part you played in Bush's oil war , of how you supported those that criminally ruined the Mayo landscape in 'gifting' a resource to the supplier of the biggest brown envelope and of how you backed-off from attempting to stop the destruction of the Tara heritage site because your then party leaders no longer apparently approved of such protest action .

Is that "meaningful" enough for you ?

Sharon.

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Sat Jul 07, 2007 17:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

First of all look at the numbers. Numerically FF do not need GP and secondly what are the options? FG led administration will do exactly the same thing. I am still looking for practical solutions from you. Still nothing forthcoming. What is your attitude to the implementation of the Aarhus Convention?
I am not a member of GP. As I said earlier, I would consider joining in order to elect Patricia McKenna.
As for implicating me in Bush's war. Give me a break.

author by Sharon . - Individualpublication date Sat Jul 07, 2007 18:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Rational Ecologist !

"First of all look at the numbers. Numerically FF do not need GP and secondly what are the options?"
The 'numbers' therefore indicate that the pledges offered to the electorate by the Green Party before the May 24th last election will not be implemented as Fianna Fail has no "need" to do so in order to keep this administration alive . The Green Party have neutralised themselves and have been seen to do so in a very public manner , with nothing environmentally promising in return .

"FG led administration will do exactly the same thing."
But without the support of the Green Party , who would then be in a position to join in with those opposing same .

" I am still looking for practical solutions from you. Still nothing forthcoming."
No , you're not . You are looking for a verbal 'comfort blanket' to smother your ailing conscience with .

" What is your attitude to the implementation of the Aarhus Convention?"
It looks very useful on paper . Can the Green Party now ensure that it is fully implemented ? Has Mr. Gormley , Mr. Ryan or M/S McKenna stated that they intend to enforce same ? If they say it , can they be believed ?

"I am not a member of GP. As I said earlier, I would consider joining in order to elect Patricia McKenna."
That doesn't say a lot for your own belief in this present leadership whom you call on us to support , does it ?

"As for implicating me in Bush's war. Give me a break."
You have inplicated yourself by your support for (and probable membership of) a political party which forms part of an administration which assists in that 'oil war' endeavour .
You now need two 'comfort blankets' .

Sharon.

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by W. Finnerty.publication date Sat Jul 07, 2007 21:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Green Party has actually made a start on trying to have the Aarhus Convention Agreement ratified, which is possibly more than can be said for any of the other parties?

However, and for whatever reason, Deputy Trevor Sargent TD does not appear to have followed through with his efforts.

I wonder why? Perhaps he might care to tell us - at this very interesting point in time for both himself and the Green Party he lead until very recently?

Had Trevor Sargent followed through, it might have done wonders for the "common good" of the population of the Republic of Ireland, and for genuine democracy.

Instead, we now have a bulging-at-the-seams and growing cesspit of Bilderberg and Trilateral generated corruption, masterminded by thoroughbred despots who have nothing but hate-filled contempt for democracy, and who appear to have the whole Oireachtas in their pocket, not to mention the judiciary as well of course. Rumour has it the Global Elite now jokingly refer in private to these two groups of people as the "best that money can buy" in the whole of Europe.

Dáil Éireann Debate - Volume 596 - 02 February, 2005:

Mr. Sargent: "I asked a question of the Tánaiste yesterday but did not get an answer. The Taoiseach might respond today. Ireland has signed the Aarhus Convention but has not yet ratified it. Having regard to Article 29.5.1º of the Constitution, when will the convention be ratified and laid before the Dáil? "

The Taoiseach: "I will have to check on the matter of the Aarhus Convention. Will the Deputy repeat the name?"

The full text of this Dáil Éireann debate can be seen at: http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0596/D.0596.200502020007.html

Now, our elected representatives and public servants have to explain to us all why they continue to violate Article 29.5.1º of our "Bunreacht na hEireann" (The Basic Law of Ireland) regarding the Aarhus Convention Agreement they signed in 1998: which is obviously unlawful, and which has resulted in the production of a whole crop of unconstitutional legislation (i.e. illegal law) since 1998.

This issue is not going to go away - at least not as far as I'm concerned, and regardless of the fact that County Galway law-firm Hogan & Co. continue to completely ignore the latter I sent to them through the registered post on April 3rd 2007 - which can be viewed at http://www.europeancourtofhumanrightswilliamfinnerty.co...r.htm .

Related Link: http://www.constitutionofireland.com
author by davekeypublication date Sat Jul 07, 2007 22:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I think one of these days we are all going to have to face the fact that we have a government which is hostile to the will of the people. No matter who we vote for we get the same results, we're just moving the deckchairs on the Titanic. Most people don't want to face this fact so we continue trying to tinker with the system. Hoping in the next 'election' things will miraciously change.

author by W. Finnerty.publication date Sat Jul 07, 2007 22:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I think it's more a question of our elected representatives and public servants facing the fact that genuine democracy means "government of the people, by the people, for the people".

Thanks largely to the internet perhaps, the days when "public servants" (so called) can successfully dupe the majority of voters into believing that "elected dictatorship equals democracy", may be drawing to a close.

The People won't stand for that kind of ridiculous nonsense anymore, or at least not for too much longer.

And why should they?

Related Link: http://www.google.com/search?q=government+of+the+people%2C+by+the+people%2C+for+the+people&btnG=Goog
author by davekeypublication date Sat Jul 07, 2007 23:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

- “I think it's more a question of our elected representatives and public servants facing the fact that genuine democracy means "government of the people, by the people, for the people".

- The People won't stand for that kind of ridiculous nonsense anymore, or at least not for too much longer.”

This is a fair statement however I think it’s only true when most people are fully awake to what this means, otherwise it‘s just business as usual. Perhaps I’m a pessimist. If our last ‘elections’ don’t wake people up to what passes for democracy here I’m not sure what will. Our ‘government’ is now nothing but a front for the globalists and if we are fully sucked into the superstate we can kiss what’s left of our self-determination goodbye. We’ll all be micro-managed by centralised dictatorship.

author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Mon Jul 16, 2007 14:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Sharon. I am still waiting for some practical proposals from you. So far your arguements are not winning me over to your point of view. I assure you I sleep soundly in my bed without a comfort blanket. Thanks for your concern.
I look forward to some positive comments.

author by Sharon . - Individual .publication date Mon Jul 16, 2007 20:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Rational Ecologist !

" Hi Sharon. I am still waiting for some practical proposals from you. "
No , I really don't think you are : I believe you are waiting (hoping?) for assurances from others that , amongst other things , your suggestion that the present leadership of the Green Party should be supported in their endeavours despite the fact that you yourself would , if you could , vote against them in any leadership contest (as you have stated on this thread) is a 'practical proposal' !
It is no such thing , 'Rational Ecologist' - what it is , in my opinion , is but the tip of a moral iceberg which you have , politically , run yourself aground on . You are now floundering , looking for someone to throw you a lifebelt . I can assure you it won't be launched from this shore !

"So far your arguements are not winning me over to your point of view. "
But that was never my intention !
My point from the beginning was to highlight to you , and others , what I consider to be the hypocritical political stance of those you support in relation to their actions before the May 2007 election and their conduct after same . And I believe that myself , and other posters on this thread , have done that ; you are doing battle with your conscience right now which is why you are saying 'You have not yet fully convinced me that I may be wrong...' . Stand back , look at the facts and listen to your conscience .

" I assure you I sleep soundly in my bed without a comfort blanket. Thanks for your concern. "
My 'concern' is in feeling that although you are aware you have been politically conned you continue to refuse to acknowledge that fact to yourself and will carry-on trying to garner political support for those you yourself are not one-hundred-per-cent comfortable with . You are fast approaching a stage where a mere comfort blanket will be of no use to you .

" I look forward to some positive comments."
I , for one , find nothing 'positive' in any political organisation - or in those that continue to support same - which sells itself so cheap in return for 'political prestige' .
As I implied previously - your conscience and your heart seem to be pulling you in different political directions . I would ask that you refrain from using me as the reason why you will go in one direction rather than the other . It's your decision .

Sharon.

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
author by Rational Ecologistpublication date Tue Jul 17, 2007 09:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Sharon. You still persist in offering no proposals but continue to personalise this debate which is very regrettable. I have no problem with my conscience as I have and continue to be very active in many campaigns, both locally and nationally. Your cheap quip as regards my supporting the US invasion of Iraq is unworthy of comment. I have been working on the ground on these issues for many years.
You live in a very black and white world.
I am still waiting for some practical policies from you, not because I need suggestions but rather to find out if you have anything constructive to offer.
I am still waiting!!!!
No more personalised comments please. Try to be positive.
Thank you.

author by Sharon . - Individual .publication date Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Rational Ecologist !

" Sharon. You still persist in offering no proposals but continue to personalise this debate which is very regrettable."
For the second time - see my proposal re the Green Party in Leinster House , as stated on this very thread, here : Céad Iúil 04, 2007 18:50 , and here : Máirt Iúil 03, 2007 16:36 . I fully understand that that is not what you wanted to hear , but please don't accuse me of not having made a response at all .

"I have no problem with my conscience as I have and continue to be very active in many campaigns, both locally and nationally."
I presume , then , that you are active in street politics (pickets , marches , protests etc) against some political decisions which the present Leinster House administration have made , despite the fact that you are calling , on this thread , for posters to support that same administration ?
Yet , in doing so , you 'have no problem' with your conscience ?

"Your cheap quip as regards my supporting the US invasion of Iraq is unworthy of comment. I have been working on the ground on these issues for many years."
You support , and call for support for , a party which has 'worked on the ground on these issues * for many years' yet which , practically overnight , changed its stance on same . Your attempt to dismiss my highlighting of same as a "cheap quip" is a desperate last throw of the dice by you . Start preparing that script for your grandchildren that we spoke of previously .
(* Shannon, Co-location, Tara, Rossport and their about-face on the 'Metropolitan Area Network' [MAN's] FO roll-out .)

"You live in a very black and white world."
As did you (and the Green Party) until June 14 last .

"I am still waiting for some practical policies from you, not because I need suggestions but rather to find out if you have anything constructive to offer.
I am still waiting!!!! "

What you are "still waiting for" is some re-assurance that you are 'doing the right thing' in the long-run . As stated , you won't get that from me .

"No more personalised comments please. Try to be positive.
Thank you."

What is there to be 'positive' about in relation to the actions of the Green Party at the State cabinet table ? Fool yourself by all means , if you can live with it , but some of us - as stated above by another poster - are not afraid 'to call a spade a spade' .

Thank You .

Sharon.

Related Link: http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com
Number of comments per page
  
 
© 2001-2022 Independent Media Centre Ireland. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by Independent Media Centre Ireland. Disclaimer | Privacy